S02.E06: Descent

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Andrew Cunanan celebrates his birthday in San Diego as his life starts to fall apart.

[dubbel zout]

It was very satisfying to watch Norman take down Andrew. And that guy who gave Andrew advice as a birthday gift had his number, too. Though every time someone makes Andrew mad, I'm nervous for them.

I really hope the show isn't saying unrequited love is the reason for Cunanan becoming a spree killer. I guess a sociopath doesn't need much of a reason.

[Spartan Girl]

Wow.

I can't believe I'm about to write this, but when Andrew showed up at his mom's place, tweaked out and broken, stripped away of all the charm and lies he'd been skating on...for the first (and probably only) time since this show started...I actually felt sorry for him.

Imagine what might have happened had his mom actually heard his confession of unhappiness. Instead she was so lost in both his and her delusions of grandeur. It was so sad.

Dont get me wrong, I still found him as repellent as ever in the rest of the episode. But still.

They might as well start engraving Darren's name on the Emmy right now.

[Primetimer]

Andrew Cunanan's manipulations -- and druggy delusions -- start to trip him up as his 'Descent' begins in American Crime Story S02.E06.

View the full article

[hoodooznoodooz]

I don't know if it's because they showed the story in reverse chron, or if the director told DC to play it like this, but I still don't see any charm or charisma. 

I see a supreme a---ole. That is all.

Edited March 1, 2018 by hoodooznoodooz

[TheOtherOne]

Vulture: The Assassination of Gianni Versace: Fact-checking Episode 6, ‘Descent’

Vanity Fair: Versace: Andrew Cunanan’s Relationship with Norman Blachford

[tennisgurl]

Damn, that guy at the party totally had Andrews number right away, didn't he? "Your too lazy to work, and too proud to be kept." He wants all the perks of being rich and fabulous, but hates the idea of actually working for it, as he thinks he should just have everything given to him because of his innate special-ness. He even said something to Norman about how getting an education is "boring" or something like that. 

Yeah, for just a second there at his moms house, I almost felt bad for Andrew. Not a LOT, mind you, but for a second. His mom doesn't seem like a monster or anything, but she clearly has resentment towards the upper class, and probably put a lot of pressure on Andrew to be successful so she could feel better about herself, and if she had just paid attention when he said he was unhappy, maybe things wouldn't have escalated the way they did. Not that I think its an excuse (I think Andrew was probably born with serious sociopathic tendencies, and is just generally a monster) but it does offer some context. 

As for his seeming obsession with his supposedly broken hart, I dont think Andrew has the capacity to really love someone. He wants to be loved adored by everyone, and feels like he is just the best and most wonderful person ever (hence his drug high where he pictured Versace as his tailor as he rambles about how generous he is) who keeps getting screwed over by the world, even though, in actually, he has plenty of advantages and people who would have helped him, and that if people love him, he can be loved by even MORE people, and continue living his fabulous lifestyle. Its all about himself, not the actual people he says that he loves or cares about. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

So how come Norman has this exquisite house with the lovely pool and gorgeous views, but then there's a big platform bed with two sad little lumpy twin mattresses on it?

[pennben]

49 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Yeah, for just a second there at his moms house, I almost felt bad for Andrew. Not a LOT, mind you, but for a second. His mom doesn't seem like a monster or anything, but she clearly has resentment towards the upper class, and probably put a lot of pressure on Andrew to be successful so she could feel better about herself, and if she had just paid attention when he said he was unhappy, maybe things wouldn't have escalated the way they did. Not that I think its an excuse (I think Andrew was probably born with serious sociopathic tendencies, and is just generally a monster) but it does offer some context. 

I was disappointed with that......of course it's the mother's "fault" (I'm not saying you said that, just the show, of course, portrayed it that way).  Of course.  How predictable.  Gonna have to go to the fact checks on this one:)

Anyway, I just binged this over the weekend and caught up/back, whatever, tonight.  Pardon my barging in here, but two thoughts that likely have been said here in previous episodes:

1. David looks to me like young Andrew McCarthy.  I actually googled to see if he was his son.

2.  I wish I knew this was reverse chronological before I was deleting episodes as I watched.  I would have saved them to watch them in order if I had realized sooner.  Yes.  It took me a few episodes to realize that this was a long, long game of reverse chronology.   Whoops!

Edited March 1, 2018 by pennben

[itsjustme]

2 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I don't know if it's because they showed the story in reverse chron, or if the director told DC to play it like this, but I still don't see any charm or charisma. 

I see a supreme a---ole. That is all.

I was glad to see at least one person saw that  this episode.   And this reverse chron is not working for me what will be the pay off in the end?

[voiceover]

Gallo (the one who told off Andrew at the party) (Terry Sweeney sighting!!)  feels like the smartest person in this series.  And it's not even close.

I'll have to mull over the reason, but Andrew's drugged-out fantasy of Versace acting as his tailor, just wowed me.  I loved the lighting, I loved Edgar's bland reactions as Gianni pinned the suit in place, I even loved Andrew's Douglas Sirk 50s-era monologue.

[vixenbynight]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It was very satisfying to watch Norman take down Andrew. And that guy who gave Andrew advice as a birthday gift had his number, too. Though every time someone makes Andrew mad, I'm nervous for them.

I really hope the show isn't saying unrequited love is the reason for Cunanan becoming a spree killer. I guess a sociopath doesn't need much of a reason.

The character's name was Gallo and he was fabulous. OMG. It was like a one man chorus of telling the real truth about Andrew.

I was wondering why Andrew had wrapped up the gift, once I saw that the birthday banner was in his name. He literally needed to make the people that actually liked him feed into his fantasy role and life.

I do not think that Jeff and David had any sort of secret affair/relationship, but it seemed that they could understand one another. 

In his deluded mind, Andrew saw Jeff as a threat to any sort of fantasy life he could of had with David, because deep down, he knew that he had nothing real to bring to any sort of relationship. When David tried to get some sort of "truth" out of Andrew, the expression on his face changed when Andrew started another round of lies. He literally could not stop lying.

His obsession with Versace was horrible. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by vixenbynight

[vixenbynight]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Gallo (the one who told off Andrew at the party) (Terry Sweeney sighting!!) feels like the smartest person in this series.  And it's not even close.

I'll have to mull over the reason, but Andrew's drugged-out fantasy of Versace acting as his tailor, just wowed me. I loved the lighting, I loved Edgar's bland reactions as Gianni pinned the suit in place, I even loved Andrew's Douglas Sirk 50s-era monologue.

I loved that sequence as well. Andrew needed to fantasize Versace being subservient aka beneath him, because he was everything that Andrew wanted to be: successful, rich, talented, liked, adored and most importantly loved.

I just do not get why he felt like Versace was "lucky". He had to work to get to where he was in his life. All that Andrew had to do was work. Yet, he found it "boring". Andrew wasted his own life. Not the other way around.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Vulture: The Assassination of Gianni Versace: Fact-checking Episode 6, ‘Descent’

This part seemed unnecessarily sarcastic:

Quote

Thrifty pharmacy
Norman’s investigation into Andrew was spot-on, including Cunanan’s time as a Thrifty pharmacy clerk in San Diego. That’s affirmed in the San Diego Reader blog, the FBI files, and New York Times interviews with police, among other sources. You won’t find that particular storefront there any longer, but if you’re ever in and around Rancho Bernardo, you can still snag some “thrifty” ice cream. At Rite-Aid.

The reason the Thrifty storefront isn't technically there anymore is because Rite Aid bought Thrifty/Payless in 1996. The store is actually still there but the sign was changed. Rite Aid knew how popular the Thrifty brand ice cream was so they still sell it. I remember how much I loved those cheap ice cream cones. Chocolate malted krunch!

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Damn, that guy at the party totally had Andrews number right away, didn't he? "Your too lazy to work, and too proud to be kept." He wants all the perks of being rich and fabulous, but hates the idea of actually working for it, as he thinks he should just have everything given to him because of his innate special-ness. He even said something to Norman about how getting an education is "boring" or something like that.

He said that having an education and working were "ordinary."

[Robert Lynch]

Loved the 80s-90s music used here. Can I say the music used is great and kind of fits with the show in general! I was shocked to see Michael Louri here. He came a long way from Flashdance, did he? Darren Criss knows how to rock those 90s clothes. 

[J.D.]

I really like this series' portrayal of David Madson.  He seemed like a genuinely kind person.  48 hrs on ID re-ran an old episode on Andrew Cunanan and his victims a couple of weeks ago.  (If interested, you could probably find the episode online.  That installment was called "48 hours:  Murder By Design").  Anyway, during the 48 hrs segment they interviewed someone who had worked with the real David Madson.  They showed home movies, etc... and it made me realize that Cody Fern is doing an awesome job playing the kind-hearted David.  I think Madson truly felt sorry for Cunanan.  I think he felt bad that someone like Cunanan, who could have probably had a good life had he just applied himself, felt the need to put on a front of popularity and affluence. 

I, too, felt a little sorry for Cunanan during the scenes involving his mother.  Naturally, we don't know if she was really so unaware of her son's downward spiral, but it was a moment in this series where we briefly saw him as human.  I think the kind-hearted David knew deep down Cunanan was depressed and lonely, and he had a hard time cutting him loose because his conscience just wanted to help him.

[Chaos Theory]

The scene at the house with the mother never happened but in RL Andrews mother was overindulgent and blind to who Andrew was.    The scene was put in there in part to show how alike they were.  

Edited March 1, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[sashayshante]

I was cringing inside watching David listen to Andrew fabricate a backstory for himself in the hotel room. You saw each emotion on Fern's face as the story went on. First, he was hopeful Andrew was finally going to be honest with him; then he was annoyed because Andrew started lying; then finally he just pitied Andrew. Man, was Cody Fern a huge find. He can convey so much emotion with just his body language.  I saw that Murder By Design episode on ID a few weeks ago. They were saying that Madesn was very outgoing and charismatic. Fern's choice to highlight Madsen's more compassionate/delicate side has made his character that much more relatable and complex.

Man, every time I see Trail lose it on Andrew I'm just like, 'Stoooooooooooop. He's going to brutally murder you!!!" It never occurred to me that Andrew was threatening Jeff with outing him to his parents because of Jeff's friendship with David. Cunanan was obviously - and rightfully - concerned about how friendly those two were getting. The foundation of Jeff's and David's friendship was their mutual distrust of Andrew.

I still don't believe Cunanan ever planned on killing David. I truly believe he murdered Jeff with the intention of setting David up because that was the only way he could get David to be with him. Like David said, Trail was killed because he knew too much and Andrew thought Jeff was the reason for Madson's rejection.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I still don't believe Cunanan ever planned on killing David. I truly believe he murdered Jeff with the intention of setting David up because that was the only way he could get David to be with him. Like David said, Trail was killed because he knew too much and Andrew thought Jeff was the reason for Madson's rejection.

I want to say the actual investigation of David's death highly suggested (based on David's decomposition and the route of Andrew's continued spree) that David was dead before the road trip we saw in the episode ever took place.  My only point being that if Andrew's original intention in murdering Jeff was to get David to be with him, Andrew forgot about that pretty quickly.  I think Andrew was just a self-centered person who looked to eliminate people who interfered with Andrew's vision of himself, as well as anyone who got in Andrew's way.   

[vixenbynight]

56 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The scene at the house with the mother never happened but in RL Andrew's mother was overindulgent and blind to who Andrew was. The scene was put in there in part to show how alike they were.

Wasn't his mother diagnosed with having some sort of mental illness?

50 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

I still don't believe Cunanan ever planned on killing David. I truly believe he murdered Jeff with the intention of setting David up because that was the only way he could get David to be with him. Like David said, Trail was killed because he knew too much and Andrew thought Jeff was the reason for Madson's rejection.

Andrew's reasoning may have started out that way, but in the end, he realized that David was never, ever going to be truly happy by being trapped to be with him. That the situation Andrew put them in would never result in the fantasy that he wanted. 

[darkestboy]

Good episode but not quite as strong as the previous two.

I guess this might have been the one where Andrew's "descent" really happened then. Being rejected by both Norman, Jeff and David in various ways and rightly so.

I liked Norman's friend calling Andrew out for who he was and I liked Norman actually researching Andrew as well for good measure.

Andrew really just can't stop himself. David saw through his lies and rejected him and when he tried to out Jeff, the latter did as well. Even that barman at Flicks seemed done with listening to his bullshit as well.

The fantasy sequence with Versace was just creepy though, 7/10

[sashayshante]

https://genius.com/Laura-branigan-self-control-lyrics

I didn't make the connection in the moment, but this song was a perfect choice for the episode.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

26 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't get all of the love for lobster.  Isn't it just the insect of the sea?

I think that people like Andrew like to order it because it's usually one of the more expensive things on menus. I'd always rather have crab than lobster though.

Poor David. Even after he was honest with Andrew about his feelings and then said they should start over and be real with each other, he truly thought for about a minute that Andrew was going to be truthful with him. You could see the disappointment on his face as he realized that Andrew was telling another one of his stories.

[dubbel zout]

42 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I do wonder if Andrew had been much more honest with David about his past, if much of the carnage could have been avoided.  David could see through Andrew's bullshit.

I don't think so—Andrew needed so much attention all the time. He always had to have to spotlight. I also think he'd be constantly nagging David to be "better," i.e., wear designer clothes, get a flashier job in a flashier city, etc. All so that it reflected well on Andrew. David wasn't that kind of guy, and more important, he didn't have the same intensity of feelings for Andrew that Andrew had for him. I don't think that would have changed even if Andrew had been honest. 

[vixenbynight]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think so—Andrew needed so much attention all the time. He always had to have to spotlight. I also think he'd be constantly nagging David to be "better," i.e., wear designer clothes, get a flashier job in a flashier city, etc. All so that it reflected well on Andrew. David wasn't that kind of guy, and more important, he didn't have the same intensity of feelings for Andrew that Andrew had for him. I don't think that would have changed even if Andrew had been honest. 

Andrew certainly behaved that way with Jeff, his "best friend". When Andrew made him wear the new shoes, pretend to have bought him an expensive gift, while also having a fit about David paying more attention to Jeff than to him, my initial reaction was, "This bitch has got to be kidding me. You want everyone to pretend like you!"

[MaryWebGirl]

10 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

So how come Norman has this exquisite house with the lovely pool and gorgeous views, but then there's a big platform bed with two sad little lumpy twin mattresses on it?

I have no idea if that was accurate, but it sounds like Andrew didn't like having sex with him and as the decorator picked out a bed where they wouldn't be touching. 

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, sashayshante said:

I was cringing inside watching David listen to Andrew fabricate a backstory for himself in the hotel room. You saw each emotion on Fern's face as the story went on. First, he was hopeful Andrew was finally going to be honest with him; then he was annoyed because Andrew started lying; then finally he just pitied Andrew. Man, was Cody Fern a huge find. He can convey so much emotion with just his body language.  I saw that Murder By Design episode on ID a few weeks ago. They were saying that Madesn was very outgoing and charismatic. Fern's choice to highlight Madsen's more compassionate/delicate side has made his character that much more relatable and complex.

I hope the actor playing David gets some Emmy love too.

[sugarbaker design]

I was wondering why Lesley Ann Warren didn't get any mention in the credits for playing Andrew's mother.  I just checked IMDB, it's because she didn't play Andrew's mother, that's why!

[Dakisela]

  13 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Vulture: The Assassination of Gianni Versace: Fact-checking Episode 6, ‘Descent’

This part seemed unnecessarily sarcastic:

  Quote

Thrifty pharmacy
Norman’s investigation into Andrew was spot-on, including Cunanan’s time as a Thrifty pharmacy clerk in San Diego. That’s affirmed in the San Diego Reader blog, the FBI files, and New York Times interviews with police, among other sources. You won’t find that particular storefront there any longer, but if you’re ever in and around Rancho Bernardo, you can still snag some “thrifty” ice cream. At Rite-Aid.

The reason the Thrifty storefront isn't technically there anymore is because Rite Aid bought Thrifty/Payless in 1996. The store is actually still there but the sign was changed. Rite Aid knew how popular the Thrifty brand ice cream was so they still sell it. I remember how much I loved those cheap ice cream cones. Chocolate malted krunch!

  12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Damn, that guy at the party totally had Andrews number right away, didn't he? "Your too lazy to work, and too proud to be kept." He wants all the perks of being rich and fabulous, but hates the idea of actually working for it, as he thinks he should just have everything given to him because of his innate special-ness. He even said something to Norman about how getting an education is "boring" or something like that.

He said that having an education and working were "ordinary."

Boy, that sounds scarily like the kids today.

[sashayshante]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I hope the actor playing David gets some Emmy love too.

I wonder if he'll be submitted for supporting actor in a limited series or guest actor. Witrock was nominated for his role in Freak Show,but as guest actor in a drama  even though he was in the majority of episodes. Very excited to see what Fern does on House of Cards.

[Chaos Theory]

I have some stuff to say about Andrew and his family but from what I understand it will be dealt with next episode so I will wait until then.  

As for Andrew I think he was never satisfied with what he had.  He had this lavish lifestyle with a guy who treated him well and by all accounts would have paid for his education if he choices to further it.  A lot of young men went this route (and I am by no means judging)  Some stayed for years and even forever.

**I even know a young gay man who was “kept” for years by a closeted older gay gentleman who paid for him to go to college and he is now about to enter medical school.  I don’t think they are together anymore but he has fond memories of the man.  **

Andrew was just to prideful and self involved and wanted what he wanted and wanted it *right now* and when someone finally put their foot down his life unraveled.  I don’t think David would have made him happy for very long.  Or if he did Andrew would have been incredibly abusive and controlling.  

Plus Andrew was a lying liar who lied.  It was always just a matter of time before his house of cards came tumbling down around him.  He would have blown eventually regardless.  

It was only the death count that was in question.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Florinaldo]

I thin that this episode fully justified the reverse chronological narration. If I had not seen what AC has in store for his victims and had followed him starting with his earlier life, I might have simply seen him as just a superficially charming grifter, and not a very skillful one at that over the long run; he over-embellishes his stories, rendering them less and less credible and making it easier to catch him in contradictions. He also overplays his hand: did he really think that his list of demands had any chance of being agreed to by Norman, unless he really saw himself as such a big prize? I might even have thought "poor guy" when his world started disintegrating around him, mostly through his own making, but we know it's all part of a deeper set of much darker character traits that will eventually lead to violent murders.

The acting was once again excellent, even the small parts like Gallo; it took me a while to recognize Terry Sweeney, but I knew I had seen that nose and face structure before. Miglin's cameo was again touchingly depicted, a realistic depiction of a closeted man's social uncertainty in those days. I liked the interactions between the three young men (full credit is due to the three actors), especially DM and AC, like the small looks and subtle reactions from both of them in the clothing store or during their attempt at an "honest conversation" in the hotel room, during which we learn that they had one single great night together, which we will probably hear more about next week, a much-needed moment of happiness in this story.

AC's neediness and general insecurity was nicely presented; the slightest tremor agitating the flimsily constructed edifice of his public image and story was enough to cause him to feel threatened and start cracking under the surface. If we are to believe the script, AC was not the only one in his family to take refuge in delusions and imaginary tales; his mother barely paused in her ramblings on his wonderful life when he told her he was unhappy.

 

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I hope the actor playing David gets some Emmy love too.

As reported before, Emmy rules state that he needs to be in at least 5 % of the overall screen time for the 9 episodes to be considered in the Supporting Actor category. He probably has already reached that threshold but I haven't timed it.

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

He also overplays his hand: did he really think that his list of demands had any chance of being agreed to by Norman, unless he really saw himself as such a big prize?

I loved that scene. I was surprised Norman didn't burst out laughing at the list. On the other hand, I also wondered why it took so long for Norman to wash his hands of Andrew. Even when things were going well, Andrew seemed like a handful. He was so emotionally needy.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

20 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

I thin that this episode fully justified the reverse chronological narration. If I had not seen what AC has in store for his victims and had followed him starting with his earlier life, I might have simply seen him as just a superficially charming grifter, and not a very skillful one at that over the long run; he over-embellishes his stories, rendering them less and less credible and making it easier to catch him in contradictions. He also overplays his hand: did he really think that his list of demands had any chance of being agreed to by Norman, unless he really saw himself as such a big prize? I might even have thought "poor guy" when his world started disintegrating around him, mostly through his own making, but we know it's all part of a deeper set of much darker character traits that will eventually lead to violent murders.

I am in total agreement. I am loving the reverse chronological aspect of this show. It adds a kind of backwards suspense too because you know who ends up murdered. So every scene with one of Andrew's victims is just fraught with the horror and injustice of how they end up.

[Florinaldo]

On 01/03/2018 at 3:00 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

So every scene with one of Andrew's victims is just fraught with the horror and injustice of how they end up.

The scene of the group photograph (invented for dramatic purposes I would say) was especially fraught with retrospective foreboding; here is is posing with three of his future victims, calling them "the people I love"! One can also see a small picture of Versace, a newspaper clipping, on the wall of AC's dingy apartment.

 

On 01/03/2018 at 12:02 AM, TheOtherOne said:

Vanity Fair: Versace: Andrew Cunanan’s Relationship with Norman Blachford

Interesting article, which explains part of why AC screams "I made this house" when he returns and tries to break in; not only did he see to the decoration as mentioned in the episode but he is also the one who convinced his protector to move from Arizona to La Jolla because the climate was better for him.

On 01/03/2018 at 2:43 PM, dubbel zout said:

On the other hand, I also wondered why it took so long for Norman to wash his hands of Andrew. Even when things were going well, Andrew seemed like a handful. He was so emotionally needy.

I got the impression from the way the scene was written and how MN played it that we are supposed to think that Norman still cared a bit about AC and might have been ready to settle for infrequent sex.

 

On 01/03/2018 at 4:48 AM, vixenbynight said:

I just do not get why he felt like Versace was "lucky".

He probably felt that he was entitled to the same level of success but that the word had unjustly neglected and wasted him, as he says. Versace was not too lazy to work and did not expect success to spontaneously fall into his lap.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Florinaldo

[LennieBriscoe]

14 hours ago, itsjustme said:

what will be the pay off in the end?

Sorry. I should have treated the query as rhetorical.

Edited March 1, 2018 by LennieBriscoe

[vixenbynight]

TV Guide interview with Terry Sweeney.

http://www.tvguide.com/amp/news/assassination-of-versace-terry-sweeney/?__twitter_impression=true

[emma675]

I think my issue with the entire series is that we saw things in reverse. It has less of an impact for me having already seen his victims murdered before we even got to know them. The writing, the acting, the sets, the music have all been spectacular. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by emma675d

[drafan]

5 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

The scene of the group photograph (invented for dramatic purposes I would say) was especially fraught with retrospective foreboding; here is is posing with three of his future victims, calling them "the people I love"!

 

I started to scream at my TV to warn sweet BJ Hunnicut  not to pose for that pic, since it would be posted on social media within 5 minutes. Then I remembered there was no Facebook in 1995. Phew.

Andrew's self-gift of designer shoes:

1) Shoes as a gift? Really? This also applies to the shoes he bought for Jeff.

2) Would high-end designer shoes be in a box with a big whoppin' UPC code on the end, like they came from the back room at JCPenney?

 

I was thinking about DC and this role......well, let's put it this way, if I called for a repair person and DC showed up with a toolbox, smiling that smirk....I would probably have a coronary on the spot. He's approaching Anthony Hopkins-levels of creepy.

[Spike]

You might like Bates Motel. 

[sashayshante]

Can we talk about how - when posing for that photo - Jeff and David hung their arms around each other's shoulders like they were childhood best friends and not two people who had just met twenty minutes earlier?

As far as the reverse chronology, I think going backwards gives each character and each death more impact. I think- if the episodes aired in chronological order - the whole time we'd be anticipating Versace's death and paying less attention to the victims that came before him. To have Versace be the final murder frames it as though Versace's murder was more relevant, which is the exact notion this season is trying to dispel. Then men that came before him were just as if not more relevant because of Andrew's personal connection to them.

Edited March 2, 2018 by sashayshante
I had more to add

[helenamonster]

I think another thing the reverse chronology does is work as a substitute for the investigation and trial that never happened. Last season, we watched the story of OJ and Nicole unfold through interviews, testimony, etc. because that's how it played out in real life. Starting with the murders gives us questions (why did he do it? what was his relationship to this person? etc.) and then we get the answers as we move backwards. I don't think the show is trying to make excuses for Andrew, even in the scene with his mother, but just explain how he got to where he did. Telling this story linearly wouldn't give us any questions, just have us looking at our watches for when he was going to start killing.

What was really sad and frustrating about Andrew was that he thought the elaborate lies about his life were what people wanted to hear. David was making a concentrated effort to really get to know him. He wanted the truth, even if it wasn't glamorous. And it was almost like Andrew could not physically give it to him. He couldn't bear to be seen as just a normal guy.

It was also giving me anxiety watching him flit around the party to keep all his stories straight and make sure everybody else played along. Like, it's one thing to be a big fat liar on your own, but the self-centered way he was pushing it on everybody else was hard to watch. It would have been pushy but more acceptable if he'd got the shoes for Jeff because, say, he thought Jeff had a lot to offer and he wanted him to present himself better because he cared about him as a friend. But he didn't care about Jeff. He wanted everything Jeff said and did to make him, Andrew, look good. Like he was the center of the universe and how dare anybody refuse to not do whatever it took to keep that going.

18 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

He said that having an education and working were "ordinary."

Best line of the episode, for me. The thing is I think a lot of people feel this way every once in a while. We get into a rut in our professional or personal lives and maybe start to feel like we're wasting time, and maybe we look at other people and they seem to have achieved so much more with half the effort. But then most of us snap out of it because we either realize there's nothing wrong with ordinary, or we're on our way to something extraordinary but it will take more work. He didn't even want to try.

[Shadow Wave]

23 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I don't know if it's because they showed the story in reverse chron, or if the director told DC to play it like this, but I still don't see any charm or charisma. 

I see a supreme a---ole. That is all.

If you read some of the FBI files that have been linked in these threads, you repeatedly see Cunanan's friends and acquaintances saying variations on "he was fun to be around" and they were shocked that he was involved in killing anyone. I assume that most of the time he wasn't anywhere near as hinky as the show makes him out to be. The dramatic problem, as Sarah Bunting said in the recap, is that it isn't that interesting to see someone behaving completely normally and unthreateningly. An hour goes by and you haven't advanced the plot. 

So, I understand, but it is a weakness of the script, because he's so needy and selfish it doesn't make sense that any of these people would have had anything to do with him (the exception being the bar scene in the previous ep where he was nice and charming with Jeff). 

 

17 hours ago, J.D. said:

I really like this series' portrayal of David Madson.  He seemed like a genuinely kind person.  48 hrs on ID re-ran an old episode on Andrew Cunanan and his victims a couple of weeks ago.  (If interested, you could probably find the episode online.  That installment was called "48 hours:  Murder By Design").  Anyway, during the 48 hrs segment they interviewed someone who had worked with the real David Madson.  They showed home movies, etc... and it made me realize that Cody Fern is doing an awesome job playing the kind-hearted David.  I think Madson truly felt sorry for Cunanan.  I think he felt bad that someone like Cunanan, who could have probably had a good life had he just applied himself, felt the need to put on a front of popularity and affluence. 

That little segment with the video clips of the real David was heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. He just seemed so nice.

Agreed about Cody Fern, who gets more impressive with each episode. 

[Glade]

I found this episode fascinating. Poor, sad Andrew didn't want to be accepted for who he was, couldn't stand his own life, his own self, his own story. He wanted other people to fall in love with his lies, and made insecure, crazy spectacles of power play to try to get what he wanted, which was impossible. His desire to emulate the wealthy, closeted gay men (most of which would never have gained their wealth or success if they were openly gay) who's attention and money he sought out was in direct conflict with his wanting to attract genuine young gay men living as themselves and risking vulnerability. For Andrew, this normal identity crisis of being gay was caught up in something so much bigger and darker.

Billions of people work extremely hard and never wind up wealthy or successful, that's how the system works. The people who do wind up in the 1% are lucky.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, helenamonster said:

What was really sad and frustrating about Andrew was that he thought the elaborate lies about his life were what people wanted to hear. David was making a concentrated effort to really get to know him. He wanted the truth, even if it wasn't glamorous. And it was almost like Andrew could not physically give it to him. He couldn't bear to be seen as just a normal guy.

It was also giving me anxiety watching him flit around the party to keep all his stories straight and make sure everybody else played along. Like, it's one thing to be a big fat liar on your own, but the self-centered way he was pushing it on everybody else was hard to watch. It would have been pushy but more acceptable if he'd got the shoes for Jeff because, say, he thought Jeff had a lot to offer and he wanted him to present himself better because he cared about him as a friend. But he didn't care about Jeff. He wanted everything Jeff said and did to make him, Andrew, look good. Like he was the center of the universe and how dare anybody refuse to not do whatever it took to keep that going.

Yes to all of this! Even once David flat out told him that he wanted to get to know the real Andrew and was willing to give him a second chance, Andrew just couldn't bring himself to be honest with the guy who he claimed was the love of his life.

Watching him run around the party trying to make sure that David didn't find out that Norman was the one who owned the house and paid for everything was the very embodiment of that old saying "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." Andrew could have avoided the entire situation if he hadn't invited David to the party but he just HAD to impress him with the fancy oceanview house.

The fact that Norman KNEW Andrew was lying about his name/education, was spending Norman's money on other people, and didn't want to have sex with him but he was still willing to increase Andrew's allowance and pay for him to go back to school was far more generous than I would have been with someone who was lying to me and was only interested in my money.

The one thing that Gallo got wrong was that Andrew wasn't too proud to be a kept man. Norman was not his first sugar daddy. Although he didn't want David to know that Norman was his sugar daddy, other people knew. A friend of mine lived in San Diego at the time and he said that in the gay community, people knew about Andrew's various sugar daddies.

[vixenbynight]

4 hours ago, Glade said:

I found this episode fascinating. Poor, sad Andrew didn't want to be accepted for who he was, couldn't stand his own life, his own self, his own story. He wanted other people to fall in love with his lies, and made insecure, crazy spectacles of power play to try to get what he wanted, which was impossible. His desire to emulate the wealthy, closeted gay men (most of which would never have gained their wealth or success if they were openly gay) who's attention and money he sought out was in direct conflict with his wanting to attract genuine young gay men living as themselves and risking vulnerability. For Andrew, this normal identity crisis of being gay was caught up in something so much bigger and darker.

Billions of people work extremely hard and never wind up wealthy or successful, that's how the system works. The people who do wind up in the 1% are lucky.

Andrew seemed to resent the closeted wealthy older men and the younger out men trying to live their lives honestly. He had this extremely high sense of needing others to believe and see this facade that he was this incredibly generous, nice, smart, witty, rich and lovely man, that chose to allow them into his life. Yet, once these men wanted more behind the mask, that is when Andrew started to lose them.

[sas616]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:30 AM, Robert Lynch said:

Loved the 80s-90s music used here. Can I say the music used is great and kind of fits with the show in general! I was shocked to see Michael Louri here. He came a long way from Flashdance, did he? Darren Criss knows how to rock those 90s clothes. 

Even further from playing Steve on "Search for Tomorrow."  And I'm sad that I remember this.  LOL.   But he was so pretty.

[Florinaldo]

On 01/03/2018 at 11:15 PM, helenamonster said:

I think another thing the reverse chronology does is work as a substitute for the investigation and trial that never happened.

A very insightful comment; I had not thought about it that way but now that you have said it, I see that it fits into how and why I find this narrative device to be effective and apropos in the context of the story.

 

On 02/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The one thing that Gallo got wrong was that Andrew wasn't too proud to be a kept man.

It might have been more accurate for him to say that AC did not want "to be seen by others as a kept boy", nor did he want to acknowledge to himself that's what he was. But it would have made for a less pithy retort.

One thing AC did want according to the book and to the way he is depicted was to be the center of everyone's attention and of their adulation: he got resentful when he had to share or yield that position to someone else or when he lost control over the constructed image he wanted others to see.

 

On 02/03/2018 at 1:40 AM, Glade said:

Billions of people work extremely hard and never wind up wealthy or successful, that's how the system works. The people who do wind up in the 1% are lucky.

I do not think that "success" necessarily means getting into the 1 %; I know many people who are successful in their field, without being headline-generators like Versace was or being in the very top tier of their profession. But it is probable that AC had impossibly high standards and that he was frustrated not to be handed a level of achievement commensurate to them.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Florinaldo

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, helenamonster said:

He couldn't bear to be seen as just a normal guy.

That was Andrew's fatal flaw, IMO, and god forbid he make an honest effort at trying to change that. As we've been saying all along, he expected great things to happen simply because he thought he deserved them. It's sad and pathetic. (But I don't feel sorry for him. You don't kill people because they won't prop your dumb fantasies.)

[Joimiaroxeu]

Wow, I wonder if things might've turned out differently if Andrew hadn't used Jeff to try to make David jealous. He had no clue that they both saw through him.

Yep, Andrew tried to buy David with Norman's money. Sad. And then Andrew couldn't even be honest with David when it mattered.

Crack is a helluva drug.

The ending looked like that was the moment AC officially wrote off the rest of his life and the lives of several others.