S02.E05: Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Naval officer Jeffrey Trail meets Andrew Cunanan for the first time, and Gianni Versace reveals his sexuality to the world.

[Aethera]

A reminder that we don't want to discuss any events in the episode thread that haven't yet been shown in this or in previous episodes, please! Pinning this note since we get a fair number of spoiler complaints from this forum :)

[CofCinci]

Bravo. What a compelling episode. As a Navy Veteran myself, the military is not kind to anything outside of heteronormative white males.  The uniforms were a little off but they got the atmosphere correct. 

Versace comes out via interview in a luxury hotel room in complete contrast to Jeff’s scummy hotel. 

Andrew saved Jeff’s life and took it away from him. A true monster. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by CofCinci

[Spartan Girl]

Poor Jeff never got to enjoy being an uncle.

It really was tragic watching how Jeff got sucked into Andrew's orbit. He was at a vulnerable point in his life, searching for kindness and acceptance, and along comes a seemingly benign and experienced person dripping with charisma that offered a real connection. It's only natural that he'd be drawn to him. Yet time exposed Andrew's true facade...just not soon enough for Jeff and David.

Glad we got a bit of Versace this week. I loved his response to Donatella worrying about how all the celebrities that would abandon him if he came out: "At least we keep Elton."

Aw man we have to wait two weeks for the next one?! Lame.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Spartan Girl

[Primetimer]

American Crime Story explores the fear of rejection, the battle between pride and shame, and a Don't Ask Don't Tell comic book (uch) in this Epic Old-School Recap of S02.E05.

View the full article

[Chaos Theory]

A compelling look at the life of Jeff Trail.  Of course Versace got all the publicity being the famous guy that got murdered but Andrew snuffed  out the life of what appears to be a man of such promise and honor.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[shouldbedancing]

I don't know if I can keep watching this show. Every episode there's a really disturbing scene. And there's no humor at all, it's just scary and sad and disturbing. Ahhhhhhh! But I enjoyed Jeff's story.

[TrininisaScorp]

Gah!  That really got me.   Finn W is just a gem.  I immediately felt for Jeff Trail and it was so incredibly sad how much allegory lives in his story:  B/c he was at a low point for no other reason than being who he is in a world that would not to accept him, he got wrapped up in Andrew's dangerous web.  I was screaming at the tv when they met at the club.  "Run.  Find literally anyone else, dude."

Enjoyed the moments of Gianni and Antonio.  What a bitter contrast of the fancy coming out and Jeff's painful version!  I also don't know why, maybe I'm an easy mark, but I was heartbroken by those answering machine messages that Jeff would never hear.  As some of the posters have already pointed out, he seemed like a good, honorable man who deserved much better. 

I'm still feeling as though (IMO) Penelope is the weak link.  It felt clear in her scenes with Edgar.  

Slight OT:  I love the music in this series.  I heard a little bit of Ralph Tresvant's glorious Sensitivity in the background when Jeff/Andrew were chatting.  Made my tv viewing night!

[TheGourmez]

FYI @Sarah D. Bunting, I think the picture of Andrew in the Advocate spread was meant to be Andrew pasting his head over Antonio's, not a production mistake.

[Shadow Wave]

Did anybody else notice the boo-boo of having Jeff accuse Andrew of having taken away his life "as a soldier?" I can't imagine anybody in the Navy calling himself that!

[voiceover]

Eh.  Well-done drama, but when when all the previous eps have been built around a murder -- it's a letdown.  I blame this more on Ryan and his Tarantinoesque screwing with structure.  Sometimes it works, and then there's...tonight.  And I feel like a ghoul admitting it.

Edited February 15, 2018 by voiceover

[tennisgurl]

This show really does do a great job at making the audience feel for Andrews victims, and gives us a really good look into their lives. Poor, poor Jeff Trail. He seemed like such a decent person, and his whole life was screwed up due to bullshit, and then was brutally murdered by some random psychopath who weaseled his way into his life when he was vulnerable. What a messed up series of events. 

I also like how they show how Andrew operates, and how he reels people in, but has trouble keeping them around, hence both his constant moving around, his crime, and, eventually, will tie into his murderous rampage. He can be superficially charming, and has an ability to be what people "need" at that moment, but its all so thin, and his bullshit becomes so apparent, that most people can see through him pretty quickly, even if they underestimate just how awful Andrew is. 

It was nice seeing Gianni and Antonio again, and the comparison between Versace coming out in a nice hotel in the light, while Jeff did his interview in a crappy hotel, forced into the shadows, was really effective. Especially knowing that, in the end, they still end up in the same place. Pointlessly murdered by some random asshole as they looked forward to moving on with their lives. Versace and Antonio have nice chemistry, I hope that we get a bit more of their relationship later on. 

Yeah, that ending, with Jeff's family leaving messages for him (after Jeff was talking about how excited he was to be an uncle) hit me right in the gut. This show has had a lot of those moments. It sucks to have a week off the show, but maybe its for the best. I think I need a break from the constant sadness. 

[TheOtherOne]

The Assassination of Gianni Versace: Fact-checking Episode 5, ‘Don’t Ask Don’t Tell’

Versace: Watch Jeff Trail’s Real-Life Interview About Being Gay in the Military

The Moment Gianni Versace Opened Up About His Sexuality to Press

What’s Fact and What’s Fiction in The Assassination of Gianni Versace Episode 5, “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”

Edited February 15, 2018 by TheOtherOne

[SWLinPHX]

I don't think the story is any better for being told in reverse.  If anything, I think it would have been better told the more conventional chronological linear way, maybe with occasional flashbacks.

[vixenbynight]

7 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

A compelling look at the life of Jeff Trail.  Of course Versace got all the publicity being the famous guy that got murdered but Andrew snuffed out the life of what appears to be a man of such promise and honor.

When Jeff talked about feeling regret for saving that fellow sailor's life, because it resulted in "them knowing about him", it just saddened me about how his own life was taken away. Jeff knew that it was wrong to feel that way for saving someone's life, while Cununan didn't show any care at all about the lives that he blatantly destroyed.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I understand what Donatella was saying about the company (lots of people could lose their jobs if Gianni coming out negatively affected sales, being gay was illegal in some of the countries where they had stores, etc), it made me want to ask how much is enough? How many more millions of dollars do you need to make? Why should Gianni stay in the closet so that the company can keep making more money? As for her comment about Antonio wanting to be famous, I think it is understandable that someone who's been with his partner for thirteen years is tired as being mistaken for his assistant. That isn't about fame. It's about wanting to be acknowledged for his real role in his partner's life. There's nothing wrong with that.

I give the show credit for capturing 1995 so well. Between the loose/blousey button down shirts and the baggy jeans, they get an A+ for accurately depicting the era in all of its unflattering glory.

Bonus points for the music (although I'm 99% sure that what they showed was not actually Flicks). For an episode that mostly took place in San Diego, we really didn't see anything of San Diego.

Company B

 

 

Ralph Tresvant

[Chaos Theory]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Yeah, that ending, with Jeff's family leaving messages for him (after Jeff was talking about how excited he was to be an uncle) hit me right in the gut. This show has had a lot of those moments. It sucks to have a week off the show, but maybe its for the best. I think I need a break from the constant sadness. 

Although the show does take some liberties with the truth.  By the end Jeff wasn’t as in the closet as the show let’s you believe.  One thing is actually true.  His family became aware something was wrong when his sister went into labor and they couldn’t get ahold of him.  

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

I think the picture of Andrew in the Advocate spread was meant to be Andrew pasting his head over Antonio's

Could be! I didn't even notice it until the second pass, so whatever's intended, it's meant to be subtle.

[hoodooznoodooz]

This show is breaking my heart.  They seemed like really good people. 

[Florinaldo]

So Donatella had her own version of "Dont Ask, Don't Tell", with emphasis on the second aspect. The contrast between the two coming out interviews was very telling as @CofCinci noted above.

A gripping episode, and yet not murder is shown. They don't need to be: we have already witnessed them and they hang like a shadow over this week's events. This helps make this the strongest and most affecting episode so far for me.

The confrontation between JT and AC was remarkably effective; the hate in the "No one wants your love!" line from JT was searing and it fully registered in AC. Damn you show for making me feel sorry for a brutal murderer, even if only for a second or two; thankfully the memory of the violence to come quickly erased any moment of empathy.

Great work from the two actors, in this scene and in the rest of the episode.

So sad that JT's hate is directed as much towards AC as towards himself, but it's a by-product of that not-so-long-ago era. Interesting to see that DM is self-assured when AC is not there, and then becomes all nervous and almost subversient as soon as he shows up.

AC is a mythomaniac in every aspect of his life, not only his imaginary professional activities but also in love and friendship. He seems to feel he must be the protector and provider, and yet he is the one who needs help the most; but he appears incapable of accepting that role. He is also portrayed as needing to be admired and loved; if he can't find it with one of his friends he moves on to the other.

Creepy stalker moment: in that montage of newspaper clippings on the closet wall, AC has crudely pasted his face over GV's lover in at least one of the pictures, so he can fantasize being the one who has his arm around the designer (I had to rewind and freeze frame to make sure; it's the top-most one at the right).

Edited February 15, 2018 by Florinaldo

[darkestboy]

Another really compelling episode. Creative liberties to one side, the focus on Cunanan's other victims has been the strongest point of this season. Last week's focus on David Madson was excellent and similarly this week's focus on Jeff Trail was also excellent.

A fantastic performance from Finn Wittrock as Trail and a tragic insight into both his Navy career and his meeting with Andrew. Like David, we saw Jeff seeing through Andrew and trying to distance himself from the guy, only for it to be too late.

I like that we're not supposed to be feeling sympathy for Andrew. Great as Darren Criss is in the role, Andrew really didn't care who he destroyed and that's become more and more evident even as the series has played out backwards.

Nice there was some focus on Gianni's own coming out to the Advocate with Antonio compared to Jeff talking to cameras about being gay in the Navy, 9/10

[Florinaldo]

Two interesting interviews dealing with this episode. First from FW, who mentions at one point that the scriptwriter used experiences from various former military men who were gay to fill in parts that were not known about JT. Although I thought FW was good in previous RM shows, he really was outstanding in this episode.

And in this other interview, DC mentions how for this episode and the previous one the production tried to film scenes as much as possible in chronological order and even had a table reading prior to shooting, which he believes enhanced the final results.

Does anyone know why the next episode is two weeks away? Next week's FX schedule indicates they are showing the spy movie "Kingsman" on Wednesday night.

Perhaps they felt that the first five formed a distinct block, covering the murders and the physical violence, while the remaining ones will move into the previous more personal phases of the main characters. I hope we get to see a little more of how AC's relationships with his two friends developed, even though much of it is speculative.

 

Spoiler

In the promo for Episode 6, you do get to see the three of them together in a posed shot, along with the next victim, a tantalising prospect.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Florinaldo

[txhorns79]

Quote

Although the show does take some liberties with the truth.  By the end Jeff wasn’t as in the closet as the show let’s you believe.  One thing is actually true.  His family became aware something was wrong when his sister went into labor and they couldn’t get ahold of him.  

I had read that Jeff's sibling also already had had other children, so his excitement over being an uncle, as though he wasn't already one, was fiction as well.  This is something I haven't necessarily liked about the show, and this episode, as well as the past one, where these people's very full lives are reduced down to some bare fact about them in order to make the show's larger point, and it worries me we are heading for some kind of episode that attempts to humanize or explain Cunnanan in a way that meshes with the show's thesis.           

[bosawks]

I liked how they showed how society put Jeff in such a place that coming out was so difficult and then Versace, who appears to have the advantages of being successful and wealthy in a supposedly more accepting climate, is also still discouraged to come out.

In a world where Vesace was discouraged to come out what are we to think.....

[Joimiaroxeu]

This is a docudrama, not a documentary. I'm okay with them stretching minor truths in service of the overall story.

After seeing how Jeff had tried to DIY-remove his tattoo to head off being outed, his having keyed on his coworker's tattoos earlier in the episode seemed extra poignant to me. Tattoos gotten under similar circumstances ended up being a badge of honor for one and a tragic reminder for another.

The season is definitely going to win some awards. Maybe not as many as first one but it'll do well I think.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

The confrontation between JT and AC was remarkably effective; the hate in the "No one wants your love!" line from JT was searing and it fully registered in AC. Damn you show for making me feel sorry for a brutal murderer, even if only for a second or two; thankfully the memory of the violence to come quickly erased any moment of empathy.

This moment didn’t make me feel sorry for Andrew because he refused to take no for an answer. He was one of those people who believes no means maybe and maybe means yes. Only something as strong as “No one wants your love” gets past his breezy refusal to accept other people’s words at face value. Andrew views himself as persistent and optimistic in that sense, but the objects of his unending overtures see him as stubborn, stalkery, unable to read the room, and delusional. It’s exhausting continually putting someone off politely. Jeff was clearly at the end of his rope by that point so it was more than understandable that he snapped at Andrew b

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think I need a break from the constant sadness. 

This season is so unrelentingly GRIM. At least the OJ eps had some humor. These are just so, so sad.

[Chaos Theory]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I had read that Jeff's sibling also already had had other children, so his excitement over being an uncle, as though he wasn't already one, was fiction as well.  This is something I haven't necessarily liked about the show, and this episode, as well as the past one, where these people's very full lives are reduced down to some bare fact about them in order to make the show's larger point, and it worries me we are heading for some kind of episode that attempts to humanize or explain Cunnanan in a way that meshes with the show's thesis.           

Well every time my siblings have kids I am genuinely exited to be an aunt so I completely buy his excitement.  

 

If anything the final confrontation scene between Jeff and Andrew when Jeff said “no one wants your love” was the final straw that pushed Andrew over to psychopathic murder.  By no means am I blaming Jeff..  Andrew at best was a moochy stalker with some amount of charm and no boundaries but I think that moment pushed him to the no turning back point.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Jazzhands]

9 minutes ago, bosawks said:

I liked how they showed how society put Jeff in such a place that coming out was so difficult and then Versace, who appears to have the advantages of being successful and wealthy in a supposedly more accepting climate, is also still discouraged to come out.

In a world where Vesace was discouraged to come out what are we to think.....

I know that Ryan Murphy is taking a lot of liberties with many of the actual details of these stories, but I think he’s doing a really good job with portraying the confusing feeling of the time.  

It may seem hard to believe now for viewers who weren’t born yet or were young at the time, but DADT (both the official military policy and Donatella’s “don’t tell” advice) was actually seen by many as progressive for that time.  Prior to 1994, gays were either rejected as applicants for military service or were discharged if discovered while serving.  DADT was a political compromise that allowed gays to join and/or continue to serve in the military as long as they kept their sexuality private (“don’t tell”), and it was seen even as a protection of gays in that superior officers could no longer try to out them from the closet and oust them from service (“don’t ask”).  Of course, today it is viewed (correctly, IMO) through a completely different lens as discriminatory and oppressive, but at the time it was seen by many as very progressive, and Bill Clinton took a lot of heat from many military and right-wing leaders who believed that gays were morally corrupt risks to national security. 

Donatella’s attitude seemed, to me, also pretty accurate for the time. She loved her brother but had legitimate concerns over public reaction to his planned public coming out.  After ABC aired Ellen’s coming out and a lesbian kiss on her sitcom in 1997, while there were many who hailed it as a breakthrough, there were other, equally loud and powerful voices calling for boycotts.  The show lost major advertisers and the next season aired with parental-guidance warnings and then was canceled. Ricky Martin didn’t come out until 2010 because of concerns over his career and pressure from his record company. 

The world wasn’t necessarily a safe place for LGBTQ+ in the mid-nineties, not only in terms of careers, but also safety (e.g., the murder of Matthew Shepard in 1998).  

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Jazzhands said:

Donatella’s attitude seemed, to me, also pretty accurate for the time. She loved her brother but had legitimate concerns over public reaction to his planned public coming out.

Wasn't it mostly tied to the upcoming IPO? Donatella was afraid it would lower the value of the company. But there's also this:

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

How many more millions of dollars do you need to make? Why should Gianni stay in the closet so that the company can keep making more money? 

I don't know the details, but I assume Versace Inc. was financially successful before the IPO, and it wasn't a necessary step to keep the company going.

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As for her comment about Antonio wanting to be famous, I think it is understandable that someone who's been with his partner for thirteen years is tired as being mistaken for his assistant. That isn't about fame. It's about wanting to be acknowledged for his real role in his partner's life. There's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, I thought Donatella was being really bitchy there. Her dislike for and resentment of Antonio went really deep. I'm kind of surprised Gianni was able to keep both of them in his life, especially given how closely he worked with Donatella. It's not like they only saw each other at holidays.

[Florinaldo]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

This is something I haven't necessarily liked about the show, and this episode, as well as the past one, where these people's very full lives are reduced down to some bare fact about them in order to make the show's larger point, and it worries me we are heading for some kind of episode that attempts to humanize or explain Cunnanan in a way that meshes with the show's thesis.           

I agree with @Joimiaroxeu that one has to accept this is a docudrama, with the usual narrative conventions and shortcuts; events and bits of information have to be conflated or simplified, otherwise the show would run on much longer because of the exposition time necessary, only to make exactly the same point in the end. It happens even in movies or shows dealing with well documented historical events; for example, the number of children someone had is smaller than in their real life or discussions that took place over several Cabinet meetings are resolved in only one. It's also done when fiction books are adapted for the screen(s).

In this instance they did not say JT was becoming an uncle for the first time; they needed to show his enthusiasm at being an uncle and left it unsaid as to details. It added to the sadness of his upcoming death. Same thing with the tattoo incident; see what FW has to say about it in the interview I linked to above.

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't know the details, but I assume Versace Inc. was financially successful before the IPO, and it wasn't a necessary step to keep the company going.

As I recall, the IPO was being pushed by GV because he needed an infusion of cash for some grand projects and acquisitions. His sister was not as keen on the idea and cancelled it in the wake of the murder and so kept it in the family.

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

This season is so unrelentingly GRIM. At least the OJ eps had some humor. These are just so, so sad.

We need to see some of the glamour and luxury AC rolled around earlier in his life, as per DM's speech in the diner in the previous episode and the first episode's flashback; that might dissipate some of the darkness, although I fully expect the main character to remain as exploitative of others and only shallowly charming.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Florinaldo

[truthaboutluv]

Wow, these last few episodes have been really amazing. Depressing as fuck, but amazing. I really love how the writers humanized all the victims with their personal stories. Just makes the whole thing so much more tragic. And Darren seems to be getting better in the latter episodes. Dude is creepy and batshit crazy as fuck in those last two episodes. 

[dubbel zout]

30 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

51 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't know the details, but I assume Versace Inc. was financially successful before the IPO, and it wasn't a necessary step to keep the company going.

As I recall, the IPO was being pushed by GV because he needed an infusion of cash for some grand projects and acquisitions. His sister was not as keen on the idea and cancelled it in the wake of the murder and so kept it in the family.

Thanks for the details, @Florinaldo. I know the IPO was canceled after the murder (and was mentioned in one of the first episodes), but that seemed a reasonable reaction, given all the upheaval.

20 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

What makes it so difficult to watch, is that Andrew isn't getting any push back.  He just destroys life after life, family after family, and no one has done anything about it.  I can't stand that smug look on his face.  I am surprised no one has knocked him on his ass.  They just put up with his bullshit.

Hasn't he pretty much killed the people who pushed back? Or at least the victims we've seen have been ones who've called him on his crap.

ETA: I really liked seeing Sophie von Haselberg again as David Madson's co-worker. She had about three lines this episode, but you saw what a good friend Linda was to him. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I agree with Joimiaroxeu that one has to accept this is a docudrama, with the usual narrative conventions and shortcuts; events and bits of information have to be conflated or simplified, otherwise the show would run on much longer because of the exposition time necessary, only to make exactly the same point in the end. It happens even in movies or shows dealing with well documented historical events; for example, the number of children someone had is smaller than in their real life or discussions that took place over several Cabinet meetings are resolved in only one. It's also done when fiction books are adapted for the screen(s).

I understand what a docudrama is, and that this show is not meant to be an exact recreation of the events surrounding Cunanan's murder spree.  My point was that I thought the show was stretching too much to fit the victims and others into the message the show wanted to send.  That this is a docudrama doesn't change my criticism.   

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

 By the end Jeff wasn’t as in the closet as the show let’s you believe. 

I don't think we were supposed to think he was. All the stuff with him still in the Navy and meeting Andrew was two years earlier. By the time he was killed it was clear his sister at least knew he was gay. It seemed like it was mostly his parents he hadn't told. 

 

17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My point was that I thought the show was stretching too much to fit the victims and others into the message the show wanted to send.  That this is a docudrama doesn't change my criticism.   

I'm not sure I understand the criticism, especially if it's relation to the sister having other children and that not being the first time Jeff was going to be an uncle. I mean did it really make that much of a difference, especially as noted, it was confirmed that one of the things that alerted his family that something was wrong, was his not showing up at the hospital when his sister went into labor. I don't think the show is stretching to fit the victims. I think they're simply telling their stories, showing that that they had families, people who loved them, dreams, goals and passions. Things Andrew didn't have which is why he was completely alone and a psycho who went on a killing spree. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'm not sure I understand the criticism, especially if it's relation to the sister having other children and that not being the first time Jeff was going to be an uncle.

My criticism was that I thought that real people's stories were being changed to fit into the overall message the show.  I was concerned they would try to ultimately do that with Andrew, to "explain" his actions or otherwise try to make him seem sympathetic, when his "truth" is that he was just someone who killed innocent people because he could.         

[dubbel zout]

I don't know why I didn't wonder about this earlier, but here it is: Would Versace coming out really have been such a shock? Fashion has always had gay designers. Or was it that he was being open and honest about it, rather than not commenting?

I remember all the confusion about Perry Ellis. He wouldn't confirm he had AIDS (as was his prerogative), but it was so obvious he was gravely ill. As there was no doubt he was gay, people drew their own conclusions even as his obituaries never mentioned AIDS.

Edited February 15, 2018 by dubbel zout
parallelism

[dubbel zout]

Just now, icemiser69 said:

It seems like everyone of his victims are acting the same way, they allow Andrew to have complete control.

I think in some ways Cunanan was a shrewd judge of character. He knew he wouldn't be able to control stronger people, so he went after those who were vulnerable in some way.

[itsjustme]

1 minute ago, icemiser69 said:

The problem is, his victims keep turning their backs on him, or when they get the opportunity to be the aggressor or escape, they don't take it.   It seems like everyone of his victims are acting the same way, they allow Andrew to have complete control.

Three of his five victims were surprised by him and had very little control of the situation.  Jeff was hardly in the door before he was struck by a hammer, the care taker had a gun to his head and Versace was shot before he could even process Andrew was near him.

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't understand why Jeff didn't just call the police and tell them that the gun was stolen, and who took it.  Yes, I know what era I am dealing with, but it just doesn't seem like a good idea to go and try and get the gun back from someone that he is having problems with.  Just stay away from Andrew and let someone else deal with it.

 

I am not blaming the victims, I am just trying to understand why things are playing out the way they are.

As they always say, hindsight is 20/20. Best I could figure is that despite realizing how messed up Andrew was, that he was a liar and a fraud, they didn't think he was dangerous and certainly not a murderer. 

 

Quote

My criticism was that I thought that real people's stories were being changed to fit into the overall message the show.  I was concerned they would try to ultimately do that with Andrew, to "explain" his actions or otherwise try to make him seem sympathetic, when his "truth" is that he was just someone who killed innocent people because he could.     

I've seen this concern stated elsewhere (it was actually being discussed in the previous episode's thread) and I guess for me the reason I don't have that concern is because I feel like the victims' stories being shown the way they have is actually to further highlight how heinous and awful Andrew's crimes were. If this was simply a ploy to lead to explaining Andrew's actions then the writing would have focused solely on Jeff's yelling at him, David saying he didn't want to be with him.

There wouldn't really be a need to add the whole backstory of David and his dad's relationship, Jeff's story of being in the military, his struggle, etc. The only people humanized and empathized with were the victims, not Andrew and that only makes him and his crimes seem even more evil and heinous. Also, admittedly I haven't been reading the fact checking articles but have the victims' stories truly been changed that significantly?

Edited February 15, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[Chaos Theory]

A lot of liberties are being taken but often by necessity.  With the OJ trial everyone even remotely connected to the trial wrote a book so there was almost unlimited  amount of source material to pick and chose from.  With the Cunanan murders no one really talked about it and it ultimately came down to guess work by police and reporters .  

Spoiler

Even Cunanan commits suicide at the end and doesn’t leave a note so we don’t even get his side of the story.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[vixenbynight]

15 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

As they always say, hindsight is 20/20. Best I could figure is that despite realizing how messed up Andrew was, that he was a liar and a fraud, they didn't think he was dangerous and certainly not a murderer.

I've seen this concern stated elsewhere (it was actually being discussed in the previous episode's thread) and I guess for me the reason I don't have that concern is because I feel like victims' stories being what it was is actually to further highlight how heinous and awful Andrew's crimes were. If this was to simply to lead to explaining Andrew's actions then the writing would focused solely on Jeff's yelling at him, David saying he didn't want to be with him.

There wouldn't really be a need to add the whole backstory of David and his dad's relationship, Jeff's story of being in the military, his struggle, etc. The only people humanized and empathized with were the victims, not Andrew and that only makes him and his crimes seem even more evil and heinous. Also, admittedly I haven't been reading the fact checking articles but have the victims' stories truly been changed that significantly?

Agreed. The dramatization of what happened to these five men, is (in my opinion) what keeps me interested in the series. 

As much as some folks wanted the innocent people that were killed to "fight back", I truly do not think that Jeff, David and Lee thought that Andrew would retaliate by killing them. They all had no idea that he would snap, because he couldn't get what he wanted from them.

[txhorns79]

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As much as some folks wanted the innocent people that were killed to "fight back", I truly do not think that Jeff, David and Lee thought that Andrew would retaliate by killing them. They all had no idea that he would snap, because he couldn't get what he wanted from them.

I had read that the physical evidence from when David's body was found suggested he was murdered before the road trip ever occurred, and the people who ID'd he and Andrew at the bar and diner were likely mistaken.  My thought was that the real David never got a chance to fight back because he probably was murdered shortly after Jeff. 

[Florinaldo]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think in some ways Cunanan was a shrewd judge of character. He knew he wouldn't be able to control stronger people, so he went after those who were vulnerable in some way.

Absolutely. If manipulators and charlatans have one thing in common it's their ability to identify a potential victim's weakness and how it can be exploited, whether it's people who are naive, insecure, too trusting, lonely, etc. It may not last, but it works at least temporarily and enough for him to worm his way into their lives, something I hope to see explored further as we venture into his earlier days on the West Coast.

Another skill AC seemed to have was his adaptability: he presented different aspects to different people, as needed. As DC recounts in the interview linked to upthread, he met a high school classmate of AC who said he was well loved at the time and she had trouble reconciling her memories with news of the murders.

 

3 hours ago, vixenbynight said:

Agreed. The dramatization of what happened to these five men, is (in my opinion) what keeps me interested in the series. 

As much as some folks wanted the innocent people that were killed to "fight back", I truly do not think that Jeff, David and Lee thought that Andrew would retaliate by killing them. They all had no idea that he would snap, because he couldn't get what he wanted from them.

I agree with all of that. Even LM thought he was engaging in consensual sex play, only to have it take a bloody turn. As for fighting back, I can only speculate as to how much I might have frozen in the circumstances JT or DM had to face when AC suddenly turned violent, or if I would have had the cool presence of mind necessary to overcome the surprise factor.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Florinaldo

[HunterHunted]

Ok, the location that the show used to film the airport was previously used on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, also as an airport, to film Greg's departure. He sings his farewell ballad, "It Was a Shit Show." 

I really feel like it could be an anthem for all of Andrew's relationships. He had some highs with the people in his life, but the lows were so low.

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Hasn't he pretty much killed the people who pushed back? Or at least the victims we've seen have been ones who've called him on his crap.

This seems to be really true. The moment someone punctures Andrew's bubble, he seems to unravel and takes steps to eliminate the noxious person from his life. The delusion is strong. 

[tennisgurl]

I can see how Andrew could pretty easily worm his way into peoples lives, and strike without warning. Most people, in general, just arent on the lookout for psychopathic murderers in their lives. And yeah, that sounds silly, but I think theres some truth to it. People could easily see Andrew as a liar and a scumbag, and many people did, but most people probably didn't realize how far he would go until it was too late. 

The show is clearly taking liberties, and that is always iffy (especially when many of the victims families are still around), but I do at least understand why they're doing it. Unlike last season, where the OJ Trial was painfully well recorded from multiple sources, we dont know much about what happened here. Pretty much everyone involved, even the killer, is dead, and to make matters worse, the perpetrator is a serial liar. Some of the leaps are rather questionable (like Versache meeting Andrew), but others, like speculating on the last days of David, are kind of necessary for the plot. In reality, its possible that David was killed right away, or that he was threatened or in shock, but we had to go with something, so this is basically speculation. The one line I wouldn't want them to cross is trying to make sympathy for AC, or give him a sob story, and they haven't been indulging in that. He has moments where you can see an actual human coming out, but its impossible to tell if those are real moments, or just what he "thinks" people should do, or if that even matters. He can be moved by a song, but he cant be moved by a person begging for their life. We get insight into his thought process, but not in a way that makes us feel sorry for him, but just understanding him, at an extent. Like I said, we dont know how his thought process worked, this is all speculation. But its a decent guess. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Jazzhands]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

He has moments where you can see an actual human coming out, but its impossible to tell if those are real moments, or just what he "thinks" people should do, or if that even matters.

I agree — Darren Criss’s performance in those scenes reminds me a lot of Christian Bale in American Psycho.  It’s like the character isn’t human but is wearing a human mask and acting like he thinks a human might act without having any true humanity underneath.  I’ll be really interested to see what he does in the upcoming episodes. 

[itsjustme]

11 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't understand why Jeff didn't just call the police and tell them that the gun was stolen, and who took it.  Yes, I know what era I am dealing with, but it just doesn't seem like a good idea to go and try and get the gun back from someone that he is having problems with.  Just stay away from Andrew and let someone else deal with it.

 

I am not blaming the victims, I am just trying to understand why things are playing out the way they are.

Frankly with all the liberties this show is taking we have no idea if Jeff knew the gun was even stolen.  Andrew could have taken  it and Jeff went over there for some other reason.  Unless  I missed some fact checking and Jeff told someone else who lived .

[WearyTraveler]

Two things I really liked about this episode:

1) More Versace: I can't get enough of Edgar Ramírez in this role.  He is just fantastic.

2) Finally seeing Andrew Cunanan's "charm":  I've said in other episode threads that we were told by other characters that Andrew was charming but we weren't shown enough of this.  Many people wondered how anyone could believe him, or even like him enough to let him into their lives.  In this episode, we finally saw him put on a fake persona good enough to fool someone like Trail.  Their interactions in that first meeting were the things I was talking about.  We finally saw Andrew being charming in a way that we can finally see how he was able to worm his way into his victims lives. 

[sugarbaker design]

7 hours ago, itsjustme said:

I don't understand why Jeff didn't just call the police and tell them that the gun was stolen, and who took it.  Yes, I know what era I am dealing with,

In this particular era, if you're not white, straight and male, sometimes calling a cop can make a matter much worse.