S01.E14: The War Without, The War Within

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Voq was the test case for species reassignment protocol.  The idea is to create a sleeper agent.  You need Ash's persona laid over Voq's to get the sleeper agent in place.  Voq wouldn't be able to pretend to be a Starfleet officer, so you need the Ash persona to get the agent into place, then you activate Voq.  The problem was that L'Rell couldn't trigger Voq.

If you can transplant whole personas why not back-up Ash's persona, kill him, put Voq in Ash's meat-sack and then layer the Ash persona back-up on top. If there's a physiological reason this can't be done - i.e.  only original personas can be re-activated but not vice-versa then it needs to be clearly stated somewhere. (Also: this is exactly what did not happen here but we know something went wrong.) As it is we're left with a lot of confusion and handwaving and plenty of plot holes in service of this species reassignment protocol plot which seems to have been the ultimate goal behind the creation of the character.

[shrewd.buddha]

While the whiplash twists have kept my attention, many of them are so WtF that it cheapens the experience for me. This past episode started out on bad foot when the admiral (the only one?) decided that the Federation needed a new conspiracy and ordered the MU was to be secret info ('cause regular folk can't handle the truth). And everyone agreed (!) 
Good luck keeping 300 or so crew members from talking about having to help impersonate a ship from another universe.

On 2/7/2018 at 1:04 AM, KimberStormer said:

...the universe and Starfleet seem to consist only of people we saw before.  They come back 9 months later and meet........the same admiral and ambassador that they were hanging out with before! 

..That's the other problem. It felt silly when *every* character in the limited Disco Universe had a significant role to play in the MU. Captain Tilly, Emperor Phillipa, Rebel Voq, Captain Michael, Rebel Sarek, slave Saru, ... etc. 
It doesn't follow logically that Tilly could just return to timid, who-me?, regular cadet Tilly after spending a week being the ship's MU captain. The same goes for MU-captain Michael - - she, and Ash and Tilly, would be celebrities within the crew. 
(It is the same silliness as Harry Potter - the kid who saves Hogwarts every semester yet remains unpopular and overlooked.)

ST: Discovery is written like a weird game of musical chairs - - where there are only about 8 actors and the plot is forced to always circle around them. Even if their character is an untrustworthy emperor from the MU, or exposed as a Klingon spy. 

The other (very big) problem is Voq/Ashe, who is 99% Voq if what we have been shown and told is true. (Unless  Ashe's skin was used to cover the reconstructed Voq's body .. which would be yucky - but more believable.) It is Voq's body and Voq's brain and the only part of Ashe is the magically transferred memories and personality ... which became the dominant identity ...  because of true love (?!).  And why does Voq/Ashe identify himself as a Klingon to Michael? And why didn't Voq's internal organs, with Klingon DNA, not show up during his 23rd century  medical scans? 

And then there is Michael ... where to begin?  They made a very big deal of her being raised Vulcan - - but where is the evidence (besides having Sarek on speed dial)? It was mostly to give her a Spock connection, establish she is a genius, and provide an unhappy childhood to overcome.  Despite a Vulcan upbringing, Michael is an emotional hot mess.  And enough with the praising of how special Michael is -- by everyone : Philippa, Sarek, Lorca, Saru. ("You are the only one who could have done what you did.")    We. Get. It.  She's the 'one'. And it will now and forever more be all about Michael. Okay. 

In addition, Michael always appears to be sort of angry - - even when she is sad about the not-Ashe situation. Or maybe she is always frustrated (because she is always right and everyone else is wrong?). Either way, frustration/anger appears to be her baseline personality - which doesn't make her that  appealing (to me, at least). 
If comparing, I always considered Spock to have a baseline emotion of curiosity. And T'Pol had a baseline emotion of annoyance. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[paigow]

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

If you can transplant whole personas why not back-up Ash's persona, kill him, put Voq in Ash's meat-sack and then layer the Ash persona back-up on top. If there's a physiological reason this can't be done

Klingons are not Kree... Killing Ash and re-animating his body is only possible in Tahiti...

[MissLucas]

See, that's the sort of crazy this convoluted writing unleashes.

[KimberStormer]

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

 And enough with the praising of how special Michael is -- by everyone : Philippa, Sarek, Lorca, Saru. ("You are the only one who could have done what you did.")    We. Get. It.  She's the 'one'. And it will now and forever more be all about Michael. Okay. 

OMG seriously!!  When the only person anyone thinks is even worth comparing to Michael is the other Michael from the mirror universe something is wrong.  I don't mind if the writers wanted to write someone they thought was The Best, that's a worthy goal, but trust us to get it and don't have everybody telling us she's The Best all the time.

[Ceindreadh]

5 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

While the whiplash twists have kept my attention, many of them are so WtF that it cheapens the experience for me. This past episode started out on bad foot when the admiral (the only one?) decided that the Federation needed a new conspiracy and ordered the MU was to be secret info ('cause regular folk can't handle the truth). And everyone agreed (!) 
Good luck keeping 300 or so crew members from talking about having to help impersonate a ship from another universe.

 

Presumably there's a Federation equivalent of an official secrets act.  Present day members of armed forces/services would have things they're not allowed talk about to people who don't have the correct security clearances.  I don't see why serving officers in the Federation would be any less trustworthy. 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Presumably there's a Federation equivalent of an official secrets act.  Present day members of armed forces/services would have things they're not allowed talk about to people who don't have the correct security clearances.  I don't see why serving officers in the Federation would be any less trustworthy. 

Even Picard did not have clearance to view files concerning U.S.S. Pegasus and Riker was duty bound not to discuss it...Kirk had clearance for Project Genesis while Spock did not....

[RobertDeSneero]

11 hours ago, MissLucas said:

If there's a physiological reason this can't be done - i.e.  only original personas can be re-activated but not vice-versa then it needs to be clearly stated somewhere.

It absolutely doesn't need to be clearly stated somewhere and I would argue that it would be bad writing technique to insert unnecessary detail.  You don't need to explain everything and you don't need to spoon-feed the weak-minded audience members who can't understand implied details.

It's certainly possible that copying a personality requires cutting into the brain in a way that will kill the subject if he is not already dead.  If so, that's a tidbit that should go into the series bible that the writer's use, but it doesn't need to be mentioned on screen.  Or maybe they should spew some technobabble that the complexity of the human brain means that the trans-quantum cerebral imager can only copy from one brain to another and can't store images.

[paigow]

17 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Or maybe they should spew some technobabble that the complexity of the human brain means that the trans-quantum cerebral imager can only copy from one brain to another and can't store images.

If the Klingons had Source Code constraints, like only the last 15 minutes of Ash could be transferred, Voq would need mad improvisational skills....

[starri]

Well, we know from TOS that the Klingons have pretty advanced mind-reading/control tech.  I think being able to implant Ash into Voq is pretty consistent with that.

[MissLucas]

12 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

It absolutely doesn't need to be clearly stated somewhere and I would argue that it would be bad writing technique to insert unnecessary detail.  You don't need to explain everything and you don't need to spoon-feed the weak-minded audience members who can't understand implied details.

It's certainly possible that copying a personality requires cutting into the brain in a way that will kill the subject if he is not already dead.  If so, that's a tidbit that should go into the series bible that the writer's use, but it doesn't need to be mentioned on screen.  Or maybe they should spew some technobabble that the complexity of the human brain means that the trans-quantum cerebral imager can only copy from one brain to another and can't store images.

Calling people weak-minded for questioning opaque and convoluted plots is where the land of fanwanking starts.  I do not travel there.

[paigow]

52 minutes ago, starri said:

Well, we know from TOS that the Klingons have pretty advanced mind-reading/control tech.  I think being able to implant Ash into Voq is pretty consistent with that.

Mind Sifter Ripper

[Zuleikha]

Well, we know from TOS that the Klingons have pretty advanced mind-reading/control tech.  I think being able to implant Ash into Voq is pretty consistent with that.

I think being able to implant a construct of Ash into Voq is consistent with that. But being able to implant an Ash who is functionally Ash is not consistent IMHO. It makes no sense that L'Rell would have been able to resolve the issue by killing Voq and leaving Ash (I'm sure there was some explanation given for why she chose to leave Ash instead of Voq, but I don't remember it.) Every physical aspect of the body and the brain were all really Voq.

From a storytelling perspective, it was also just a waste. The idea of the Voq/Ash/L'Rell twist had promise, but IMHO, it needed to be its own major story arc to properly pay off all the work of setup. It ended up feeling rushed and poorly thought through, which is weird for something that a lot of thought clearly went into. The PTSD Ash storyline ended up being much better.

[John Potts]

Shouldn't Sarek check the other crew members too (at least the senior crew)? Sure, he learns they're not an entire ship of imposters, but they might be Mirror Imposters or Klingon undercover agents among them. Because that's never happened before!

"[Empress,] Make yourself at home?" What, snack on Captain Saru?

Tilly, you're all heart!

I'm sorry, NO WAY would Cornwell freeze like that on seeing the destruction of Starbase 1. She has been fighting this war for months and should be more like Helena Cain. Who would probably launch a suicidal attack on the base.

Empress Giorgiou, telling it like it is!

The Vader system? Are we heading to Chewbacca next?

Ash you're not really winning me over with the "It wasn't me that tried to kill you, it was my other personality!" If there's ever a good reason for a break up, that was it. OK, you can sympathise with the guy for his identity crisis, but don't guilt trip the woman you tried to kill.

Is the spore hatching thingy the inspiration for the Genesis Device (it should be only a few of decades away)? The graphics were so reminiscent of it firing off in Wrath of Khan.

Exactly how was the Empress' presence a surprise? Word would have shot around the ship well before Adm. Cornwell sent out the gagging order. I can buy that it won't pass beyond Discovery, but everyone on board would know her real identity 

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:21 AM, starri said:

Did Sarek say without saying that he loved Michael?  I hope she realized that.

Sarek was almost showing emotion there, which is a really bad sign.

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 7:35 AM, jsbt said:

Was not feeling the crew jumping to accept Tyler/Voq in any way at all. He murdered one of their own and no one has the vaguest conception of who or what he actually is at this point.

Agreed. I can buy Tilly accepting him because she's that big hearted, but I didn't buy everyone else forgiving him. In time, maybe, but not so suddenly.

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 3:18 PM, Florinaldo said:

Which is why a failsafe amongst the senior staff would be needed; redundancy is standard practice in security procedures and systems.

Starfleet Security always sucks. I can easily see them saying, "We asked her to play nice and she said she would, so that's good enough for us!" Hell, Lorca appointed an "escaped prisoner" as Head of Security over everyone else working there, apparently purely on the basis of the fact they escaped together.

[Bruinsfan]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:49 PM, John Potts said:

Ash you're not really winning me over with the "It wasn't me that tried to kill you, it was my other personality!" If there's ever a good reason for a break up, that was it. OK, you can sympathise with the guy for his identity crisis, but don't guilt trip the woman you tried to kill.

Quoted for truth.

The details/explanations have been VERY confusing and convoluted, but what Tyler and the med tech said this episode make me think that what the Klingons did was chop Voq down into parts to use as enhancements to Tyler's body (bones, heart muscles, maybe his adrenal system?), implanted his consciousness in Tyler's brain, and then rebuilt Tyler's mind over/around that as a cover. So what we're left with is mostly the original human body with Klingon bits hidden inside and reshaped to look like the corresponding human bits and pass casual inspection. Though I don't really see the point of a lot of that as Klingons aren't that much more physically capable than athletic humans and I'd think not having all that extra bone mass would eliminate most of what advantages they do have.

[Driad]

Ash Tyler's facial hair reminds me of Wil Wheaton, so it occasionally takes me out of the story to wonder what grown-up Wesley Crusher is doing there.

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

If the Emperor goes rogue and Michael has to take control, is the entire ship going to think "great - there goes Michael again with the mutiny"?

[Bruinsfan]

They didn't spend much time wringing their hands about the Lorca reveal, so presumably if the Emperor is doing anything too wildly against Federation procedures/policies they'd be onboard with having her relieved of duty. Maybe.

That said, Admiral Cornwell may have decided that a triumphant Federation ruled by an extradimensional Pulp villain is a risk she's willing to take to prevent it being destroyed and the human race subjected to a genocidal trophy hunt.

[Tachi Rocinante]

This was good, except for the Ash Tyler Soap Opera.  Just airlock him already. "The re-re-assignment surgery didn't take, whoops!"

I didn't realize that Michele Yeoh could chew scenery so effortlessly.  Love her.

[mythoughtis]

Poor Saru.   Go from acting Captain to someone underneath a person who eats his species.    Since I haven’t watched the next episode, I have to wonder what his rank will change to.  I really can’t see the Emperor being able to hide her racism and brutal beliefs.   

Edited April 12, 2023 by mythoughtis

[Affogato]

On 4/12/2023 at 4:23 PM, mythoughtis said:

Poor Saru.   Go from acting Captain to someone underneath a person who eats his species.    Since I haven’t watched the next episode, I have to wonder what his rank will change to.  I really can’t see the Emperor being able to hide her racism and brutal beliefs.   

I can't imagine Saru has enough meat on his bones to be really a good pick for food. it seems odd. there must be many others in the universe who are meatier, almost anyone, really.

Ah, the ganglia, though?