Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search

S04.E05: Trans Girl Meets Girl


  • Reply
  • Start Topic

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Bridget said:

Thank you for the info. Google is great! If anyone has a few minutes, just Google her name and you'll be shocked to see what things she's participated in. I can't believe I've forgotten her existence on one of my favorite shows with four coaches in big red chairs. 

The age difference is odd (MP will be 22 in March of this year). I'd hate to think she's using this show as a platform for personal and/or professional gain. I say this because she included "Season 4 of I am Jazz" in her Instagram biography. 

I hate to be negative, but something doesn't seem right here, unless there is a major back story between Jazz & Michaela that has yet to be revealed, which is odd because this show is pretty much all about people sharing their own very personal stories and struggles.  Hmmm....

I found Michaela pretty quickly on Instagram and she definitely promotes herself on the show like its a part of her resume. I hate how so many adults are taking advantage of Jazz. She has no real friends who aren't using her for something. Even her own mother is using her for attention.

Edited by janedi
  • Love 2
Link to comment
17 hours ago, kicotan said:

I could have sworn Dr. Ting said "labia"...but, in Jazz's defense, I see lots of women referring to their labia as their vagina. (And it drives me batty!)

What Dr. Ting meant was that he could reproduce the look of the labiaum, but no guarantee on the depth needed for penile penetration. In other words, an ornamental vulva, not a functional vulva.

How it works is that the core of the penis is discarded, and the flesh is inverted, so, for example,  a 4 inch penis will provide 4 inches of depth for penetration.   Recent developments in surgery have allowed transgender women to have a simulated clitoris by having the tip of the penis remain intact. 

Edited by Visaman666
  • Love 1
Link to comment
16 hours ago, Maricopa said:

Geez, I can't recall even one time I heard anyone talk about her vagina. I think most of us had to do the mirror-up-the-crotch thing when learning to insert the first tampon, but that's about it. When you menstruate every 28 days it just becomes a part of you that isn't really of interest, or maybe that's just me.

Have you seen The Vagina Monologues? I haven't myself, just excerpts on TV and radio. 

Link to comment
16 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Why does Jazz always say that who ever she has a relationship with will have to handle her because she is a lot ? What is her definition of a lot? Making everything about yourself? Being depressed and moody? doing only what you want to do when you want to do it? Okay, I get it then. Yes, Jazz, you are a lot.

She is, all that, and, a bag of chips!

  • Love 2
Link to comment

If Jazz has a "micro penis" I can't imagine she will have more than an "ornamental" vagina.  I have a feeling her life will be nothing but one surgery after another trying to seek the "perfect vagina".  At what point will Greg say enough is enough?  What are Jazz's goals for a future occupation?  Will she ever be able to support herself financially or will she depend on her parents forever?   

  • Love 6
Link to comment

Boring episode.  The segment with her therapist was a snore, and it kept going and going and going.  I guess they were having trouble filling out the episode.  As for the weight loss, just speaking generally, the WORST thing you can do is set numerical goals.  It's the biggest mistake people make because it makes it about reaching some arbitrary number and not eating better to be healthy.  So two things happen.  First, when someone slips up a little and they gain some weight back they get despondent like Jazz last night and that often leads to them going back in the other direction.  And second, if they do reach their goal, what happens next?  They go back to their old eating habits because they reached their goal!  If I was Jazz's parent, I would do the exact opposite of what her mom does, and tell her to never get on that scale.  When you make it about eating to just be healthy the weight comes off on its own and there is no pressure because it's not about a number anymore.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
13 hours ago, kicotan said:

I went looky-looing about the internet and found a post on a gossip site that claimed that what Greg "does for a living" is run a foundation.

The foundation hasn't filed a tax return since 2012, and although he and Jeanette are its two officers, neither collected a salary. He is a probate lawyer with good ratings, and that's good business in Florida.

9 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

Have you seen The Vagina Monologues? I haven't myself, just excerpts on TV and radio. 

Yes, and I found it profoundly bizarre and not at all relative to women in real life.

  • Love 4
Link to comment

I didn't like that Jazz wasn't honest with her dad regarding her therapist visit. She told Greg that all the therapist cared about was her weight and looked at her like she was huge or something and that is not at all what it was about. Since Jazz told the therapist she was a binge eater, of course the therapist is going to be concerned about that. She told Jazz that she needs to find different ways to comfort herself and that is correct-I don't think the therapist is really all that concerned about the actual weight.

I do wonder how many of these people are Jazz' actual friends versus people who wanted to be on the show or are somehow involved with the trans community or the foundation. Not to say they can't be both, but if Jazz doesn't spend time with them outside of the show, I would not consider them friends. Is Michaela part of the trans community? I didn't remember her and hope she is not just friends with Jazz for Tv exposure. 

  • Love 5
Link to comment

Please forgive if too many words!

The peritoneum is the membranous wall lining the abdominal cavity.  The colon is not the peritoneum.  

Dr. Ting said to Jazz, "you have enough tissue to build labia.  That as what I was mainly interested in."  He did NOT say, as Jazz reported, that she has the ideal amount to make a vagina.  He told her she would not be appropriate for a tissue expander, which is still preferable to a peritoneal graft (the latter is quite an invasive procedure), presumably because her penis and testicles are simply too small.  Now I did look up the literature on the use of peritoneal grafts to build vaginas; it was developed for women who have congenital conditions in which they are born without vaginas.  A long-term study of 68 such women found general satisfaction with their vaginas, but they do close up if not dilated daily;  the literature warned of its being treated by the body, as wound repair.   Infection is also an issue.  And the study was not all that long term (10 years I think);  I would imagine that with time there are abdominal issues with scar tissue from the peritoneum graft.

 

The issue with weight was not addressed correctly.  Greg and Jeannette asked Dr. Ting if Jazz's weight was an issue that might prohibit her from having the surgery.  Dr. Ting said he had performed SRS on people whose BMIs were higher than Jazz's.  But that is not Marci Bower's issue.  She has emphasized that Jazz would be, by far, the youngest and most suppressed person to undergo SRS.  That in order to get IRB approval (institutional review board) to allow such a ground-breaking, and ethically questionable surgery in their hospital, on such a young person, would require the letters from 2 therapists and normal weight (among other things) to assure the reviewers that Jazz was of sound mind.  I am sure if she were self-harming by cutting for example, that would also be grounds for denying approval for the surgery.  A binge eater unwilling to address her addiction in therapy is not exactly a safe bet for long-term success.

As to jazz's weight.  She is, when at her peak weight, significantly more overweight than 30 pounds.  She could stand to lose 50 pounds.  I know this because I have been her size.  I am thinner now, but could still stand to lose 30 pounds.  But I am at the upper end of middle-aged, and that IS a very different thing from being 50 pounds overweight at 16.  It IS annoying that they edit so extensively.  It is difficult to get an idea of jazz's weight issues because from one scene to the next her weight can vary by 20 pounds!  I am sure she has lost some of the weight, but we never see her at a normal weight for a girl her age.  

 

I don't like Jazz's friends.  Michaela, and Nicole and the gay guys from the LGBT support group ---- all so consumed with their own agendas.   Not genuine people in the slightest. 

Michaela seems so much older than these teens are.  And the extremely theatrical make-up is just a shock every time they do a close-up.  Is she some actress they have brought in for a story line?  Very odd.  Ahhh.  Have now just googled Michaela Paige and see that she is indeed a ringer brought in for the addition of drama.  Irritating.

 

The guys who dared her to drop her plaster piece onto the ground and shattering it, were just so irritating all the way around.  Do any of these kids respect ANYTHING?  Including their own efforts, their own art?  Admittedly, it is decades since I was 16, but seriously, I would NEVER have dared her to do that, no matter how desperately I was trying to be cool.  And I would have said "No!  Be careful!  You might drop it!!!"  How awful to be so added, so young.  

This is petty and superficial, but Jazz's lips are driving me crazy.  She seems obsessed with pursing her lips, with smacking her lips, with caressing her lips.  At some point, I suspect, someone told her that her mouth is an attractive feature and she is now fixated on it.  It has become a tick, and she needs to lose it.  This applies to her hair too.  When she was playing basketball with her dad, her hair was dirty and in the way.  she doesn't seem to understand, braids, and buns and pony tails are appropriate for different activities.  In a lab course in school for example, or working with food at an after school job, she would have to set her hair aside, and remove it as an attention-getting device.  As with so much in jazz's life, setting aside attention-getting devices is simply not tolerated.  That said, Victoria strikes me as a nice girl I guess, but I agree with jazz, she is intimidating.  Not a good match for Jazz.  Jazz likes boys.  Victoria likes girls.  

 

WHY is jazz scarfing down French fries on her "date"?  And Michaela commenting that watching Jazz opening up as being a beautiful thing seemed bizarre.  Jazz's friend from middle school who was along on that date was by far the nicest girl there. 

I am surprised the producers cannot fathom nice genuine warmth.  







 

  • Love 14
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Impatient said:

This is petty and superficial, but Jazz's lips are driving me crazy.  She seems obsessed with pursing her lips, with smacking her lips, with caressing her lips.  At some point, I suspect, someone told her that her mouth is an attractive feature and she is now fixated on it. 

Jazz's friend from middle school who was along on that date was by far the nicest girl there. 










 

Agreed with you on all points.  An excellent post.

I have also noticed something odd about Jazz’s mouth.  She has some odd habits.  Sometimes she does something weird with it, almost like she is chewing her cud.  I know she isn’t really doing that, but it’s what comes to mind.

  • Love 4
Link to comment
22 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

She started painting it....didn't like the way it looked it and decided that breaking it was one way to solve that problem.  I'm not kidding. Recall how she told the therapist that things had to be perfect or not at all. 

This goes back to a comment you made a while ago about her maturity and her father’s concerns. The comment you made was she has to be mature enough to accept the outcome no matter what that outcome is. How is she going to react if she doesn’t end up with the perfect vagina?? I have lived with a vagina all my life and there’s nothing perfect about any of them.

Edited by Kid
  • Love 8
Link to comment
28 minutes ago, Kid said:

This goes back to a comment you made a while ago about her maturity and her father’s concerns. The comment you made was she have to be mature to accept the outcome No matter what that outcome is. How is she going to react if she doesn’t end up with the perfect vagina?? I have lived with a vagina all my life and there’s nothing perfect about any of them.

Yeah, plus the complications that can result.  With her low tolerance for anything that she doesn't like, how would she handle chronic pain, infections, long term medical care due to complications.  I just don't think she entertains that these are potentially things she could encounter.  And NEITHER does Jeanette.  She just thinks it's all going to be hunky dory.  I do worry about it.  If the reports on these boards are true and she's schedule for a May surgery......oh my.  Prayers for all. 

  • Love 5
Link to comment

I wish no ill will toward Jazz.  I just don’t think she knows what she wants and this surgery is a HUGH step.  I cannot blame her dad for wanting to wait for the surgery until Jazz can sign the papers.  They have already taken steps that have left her sterile.  She dates guys, them girls, she has just never had the opportunity to mature and figure this out.  

Now on the preview it appears she wants to quit school.  I wrote in previous posts that I could not see her going away to college as her parents seem to think she will.  In the previews it appears as though she wants to leave high school.  I can totally see her spending her days wrapped up in her blankets doing nothing.  It seriously a recipe for disaster.  She desperately need the help of a physiatrist, not just a therapist, to figure herself out.  Once she turns 18, her parents can’t force her into anything.  

  • Love 6
Link to comment

I wish she would wait 5 years if only for the advances that are made almost monthly in this field. Then there may be more than 15 people who have had it done by this doctor. There may be another groundbreaking method with greater chance for long term success. I wish someone would bring this up to the family. 

Quote by Impatient:

The issue with weight was not addressed correctly.  Greg and Jeannette asked Dr. Ting if Jazz's weight was an issue that might prohibit her from having the surgery.  Dr. Ting said he had performed SRS on people whose BMIs were higher than Jazz's.  But that is not Marci Bower's issue.  She has emphasized that Jazz would be, by far, the youngest and most suppressed person to undergo SRS.  That in order to get IRB approval (institutional review board) to allow such a ground-breaking, and ethically questionable surgery in their hospital, on such a young person, would require the letters from 2 therapists and normal weight (among other things) to assure the reviewers that Jazz was of sound mind.  I am sure if she were self-harming by cutting for example, that would also be grounds for denying approval for the surgery.  A binge eater unwilling to address her addiction in therapy is not exactly a safe bet for long-term success.

The Doctor did indeed say he has performed this surgery on people with larger BMI's than Jazz. But if they were in their 30s and 40s and 30 pounds over weight and have lived at that weight for many years,  that is a completely differerent issue. If these people had just gained this excess weight in the year before surgery from binge eating, then I doubt he would do it on these people either. It was so ridiculous for them to conclude that he says she doesn't have to lose weight.  I totally agree with what Impatient says here and she says it much better than I can.

I wish she would wait! 


 

  • Love 3
Link to comment

Let's hope that someone with some input watches the show, reads social media and has some input to put out some serious concern about Jazz's readiness for any kind of surgery. 

This is one thing that I consider a strong possibility.  You know how they say you have to do a certain kind of exercise daily after the surgery in order for the procedure to work? I could easily see Jazz blowing this off and just not bothering.  And if her mother asked her, she'd say, Oh, I don't fell like it. It makes me feel odd. I don't want to do it right now.  Maybe, later.  And she just never does it.  That would be my prediction, since, she  just doesn't seem to like medical advice or adhering to it either.  She doesn't seem to understand a lot of things, even though she thinks she so smart.  I do think that she's very intelligent, but, she has a very immature approach to things and is very stubborn. 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
  • Love 6
Link to comment

Is there actually people out there that care what their vagina looks like ?   It's internal ?  Who sees it ?  Your unborn child coming out says "Wow what a nice canal ! "  Even if people are referring to labia/vulva; do people really care what they look like as well?   Unless you're a hard core porn star, who cares ?   Maybe I'm missing something here.  Or I'm naive. (sp?)    OK. I'll stop. 


I can't help it.........I'm still crushing on Greg.    


Still love Nicole.  Jay (is that her name?) too, she seems very sweet.    Something shady about Michaela. 

Edited by jnymph
  • Love 5
Link to comment
On 2/1/2018 at 11:11 AM, Maricopa said:

Yes, and I found it profoundly bizarre and not at all relative to women in real life.

Really? I was in a production in college and go see productions pretty regularly every couple of years- love it. 

Just wondering- how old are you? I’m 32 and I think women talk about their vaginas/labias/vulvas among each other, especially when discussing their sex life (positive and negative). It’s not water cooler talk by any means, but among sisters, cousins, close friends, Moms and medical professionals absolutely. Not to mention their partner! (If they are partnered).

 

Sorry @Maricopa I ended up quoting you twice!

I agree with @doodlebug it drives me NUTS that outside of medical circles “vagina” is used interchangeably with “labia/vulva/clitoris etc”. When Jazz says she wants a beautiful vagina she means vulva and “beautiful” is in the eye of the beholder. Jazz is very mature in some ways and very immature in others but I think she needs to WAIT on surgery a few more years, that doesn’t mean it won’t happen or she’s not “deserving” or something but she’s got to be in an emotionally healthy place before she has major surgery in order for the opitum result. 

6 hours ago, jnymph said:

 

Is there actually people out there that care what their vagina looks like ?   It's internal ?  Who sees it ?  Your unborn child coming out says "Wow what a nice canal ! "  Even if people are referring to labia/vulva; do people really care what they look like as well?   Unless you're a hard core porn star, who cares ?   Maybe I'm missing something here.  Or I'm naive. (sp?) 

 

Yeah I think there are a lot of people who care (I am not one of them for the record). Not everyone of course but it’s a thing. If there weren’t vaginal bleaching and anal bleaching wouldn’t be profitable. I know women who rant and rave about having dark under arms and how to get rid of them etc, I shrug my shoulders- like who cares.

 

Jazz’s libido/lack their of/sexuality/masturbation habits are discussed a LOT on this show, for obvious reasons, but she is still a kid. Even at 18 I wouldn’t want her having to discuss such things in front of a public audience. It feels like a violation of her privacy that she may regret later. These topics are important and are not shameful but to be discussed between her doctor, therapist, and her CLOSE friends that she chooses.

I wonder how I would feel as a 17yrs old girl to hear people question what I thought about sexually, or how my body responded to sexual stimuli.  Of course her parents have allowed her to put herself out there this way, but it’s got a voyeuristic tinge to it.....

Edited by Scarlett45
  • Love 4
Link to comment
On 1/31/2018 at 9:09 AM, Maricopa said:

Geez, I can't recall even one time I heard anyone talk about her vagina. I think most of us had to do the mirror-up-the-crotch thing when learning to insert the first tampon, but that's about it. When you menstruate every 28 days it just becomes a part of you that isn't really of interest, or maybe that's just me.

What about sex? (Partnered or solo) If a cis Woman has a libido she probably is interested in her vagina (I would assume such) and would likely discuss her vagina in relation to the topic of sex/libido etc. 

(not that one needs a vagina in order to be a sexual person- not saying that or trying to deny the sexuality of trans women or intersex women without vaginas). 

  • Love 2
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jazz’s libido/lack their of/sexuality/masturbation habits are discussed a LOT on this show, for obvious reasons, but she is still a kid. Even at 18 I wouldn’t want her having to discuss such things in front of a public audience. It feels like a violation of her privacy that she may regret later. These topics are important and are not shameful but to be discussed between her doctor, therapist, and her CLOSE friends that she chooses.

I wonder how I would feel as a 17yrs old girl to hear people question what I thought about sexually, or how my body responded to sexual stimuli.  Of course her parents have allowed her to put herself out there this way, but it’s got a voyeuristic tinge to it.....

Edited 58 minutes ago by Scarlett45.

I think, and I could be wrong, Jazz would be considered pre-pubescent, in that her puberty has been blocked, even though she is 17.  Since she is a guinea pig of sorts, in that she is in a small group of transgendered individuals who didn't progress naturally through puberty before receiving hormone therapy.  I'm assuming that her progress, or lack thereof as far as sexuality/masturbation/attraction to others/maturity/libido is all part of the ongoing experience/experiment with regards to therapist sessions, medical/surgical intervention and advocacy for transgendered kids that her parents have decided to make public.

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would think she wouldn't have issues/difficulties with libido/ sexuality/maturity that would need to be addressed, specific to her situation. If you are going to do a reality show and promote advocacy for other transgendered kids, might as well touch on some of the real issues she faces that other 17 year old females don't, because of the blocked puberty.  For transgendered kids and their parents who are just starting their journey with a child that was Jazz's age when she started, it could be helpful to give them examples of things they will have to choose down the road as they get older.

For better or for worse remains to be seen, I guess.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
23 minutes ago, kicotan said:

I think, and I could be wrong, Jazz would be considered pre-pubescent, in that her puberty has been blocked, even though she is 17.  Since she is a guinea pig of sorts, in that she is in a small group of transgendered individuals who didn't progress naturally through puberty before receiving hormone therapy.  

It’s my understanding that Jazz has gone through a similulated female puberty via her hormone therapy (hence why she has breasts yet hasn’t had a breast augmentation like many trans women have). 

But yes I agree that Jazz and other kids in her position are guinea pigs of sorts. For better or worst.....

  • Love 2
Link to comment

Scarlett45, I am far from being a prude but can honestly tell you I do not care what my vagina looks like, have never discussed my vagina even one time with any other women and have never once had anyone bring their vagina up as a topic of conversation.  

  • Love 12
Link to comment
9 hours ago, Impatient said:

Scarlett45, I am far from being a prude but can honestly tell you I do not care what my vagina looks like, have never discussed my vagina even one time with any other women and have never once had anyone bring their vagina up as a topic of conversation.  

I believe you! I wasn’t trying to imply that you’re a prude. Interesting though how varied women’s life experiences are on this topic. 

  • Love 2
Link to comment
On 1/30/2018 at 10:42 PM, JocelynCavanaugh said:

It's weird because when we first met Jazz, she seemed very poised and mature for her age, but it's like she's regressed since then. I hate when she refers to herself as a "woman," not because of anything to do with gender, but because she is a CHILD. A very young 17-year-old child who appears to be on the verge of a very rough journey into adulthood. 

Somewhat in the same vein, her talk about being pansexual makes me uncomfortable, again not because I have a problem with that identity in general, but because Jazz in particular seems so delayed in terms of sexuality. I really don't think she's ready for any of this, and it's like she went with pan because it would seem the most open and tolerant. Victoria is the same age but seems to be several years older in how she presents herself. Jazz may indeed be pan, bi, or otherwise queer, but my instincts are screaming that she's nowhere close to figuring that out. I also don't think Victoria is into her at all, probably because she's picking up on that immaturity.

Their little matchmaking friend is quite the smug piece of "woke" work. Since we know TLC reads here: I would like to see 100% less of the manic pixie dream ally.

The way they were defining pansexuality came across pretty smug, too, like only pan people are enlightened enough to be attracted to SOULS and all the boring straight or gay people are too uptight to appreciate SOULS because they're hung up on silly things like genitalia. Give me a break. 

i agree. and i'm sorry but pansexl seems to be plain ol bisexual! why the different name? attracted to souls, personality, what ever. if the same sex and the opposite sex both are attractive to you (and physical appearance is almost always the first thing you literally, see. especially at a young age) you are bi sexual. 

  • Love 2
Link to comment

When Jazz and her Grandma were at the butterfly garden together, her grandmother asks whether the date with Victoria is a sexual date.  And Jazz recoils in horror.  And at first I thought, "well sure, she's embarrassed that her grandmother is talking to her about a potential affair.  She's defining some boundaries."  But then!  She actually says, "do i seem like a sexual being to you?"

 

She is an almost 17 year old teenager.  The very definition of a sexual being.  With absolutely no boundaries, perfectly willing to discuss whom she is attracted to, but unwilling to make a choice.  Unwilling to say, "i am gay."  Or "i am a straight girl.  I am attracted to boys."  Because i think deep down, Jazz thinks she is a fraud and doesn't deserve to be attracted to anyoe.

 

what if, after all this time, all this hormone blocking (why does Jazz mispronounce the word hormone, by the way?  She says "hahr-mone", not hormone.  Weird), all of this synthetic estrogen, Jazz realizes she is a straight male?  Interested in straight girls?  Essentially, these scenes get to the very heart of Jeanette's science experiment:  has she created a situation in which Jazz is forced to live a celibate, asexual life?  And now, not even able to masturbate?  

 

And after so much inappropriate behavior, even being present for doctor's examinations of Jazz's genitalia, Jeanette has the audacity to say, "(discussion of orgasms) is a private thing.  I don't feel comfortable discussing that, Jazz doesn't feel comfortable discussing that...."  I felt like saying, "Eunuch production complete, eh Jeanette?  Now she can be a pretty china doll.  Who never leaves the display case.  Because you are now initiating a plan of shame."  

 

They need to go in to family therapy.  The show should stop.  All of it should just stop.

  • Love 8
Link to comment
1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

i agree. and i'm sorry but pansexl seems to be plain ol bisexual! why the different name? attracted to souls, personality, what ever. if the same sex and the opposite sex both are attractive to you (and physical appearance is almost always the first thing you literally, see. especially at a young age) you are bi sexual. 

The way the people on this show explained it skipped a pretty important distinction. What I’ve usually heard is that bi means a person is attracted to two options: men and women. Poly means all of the above and then some: men, women, trans, intersex, gender nonconforming, or any other identity or variation I might have missed. That’s where the “soul” thing comes in. Poly people say they’re interested in the soul and don’t care what vessel it comes in. 

They remind me of atheists and vegans. Most are perfectly nice, normal, not-annoying people, but there’s a vocal minority that are extremely self-righteous and preachy and won’t shut up until everyone knows they’re poly/atheist/vegan. Guess we shouldn’t be surprised if Jazz lands in the latter category. 

  • Love 2
Link to comment
10 minutes ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

The way the people on this show explained it skipped a pretty important distinction. What I’ve usually heard is that bi means a person is attracted to two options: men and women. Poly means all of the above and then some: men, women, trans, intersex, gender nonconforming, or any other identity or variation I might have missed. That’s where the “soul” thing comes in. Poly people say they’re interested in the soul and don’t care what vessel it comes in. 

They remind me of atheists and vegans. Most are perfectly nice, normal, not-annoying people, but there’s a vocal minority that are extremely self-righteous and preachy and won’t shut up until everyone knows they’re poly/atheist/vegan. Guess we shouldn’t be surprised if Jazz lands in the latter category. 

but still, pan and bi are the same minus the bullshit of "the soul" .what a crock.  i agree with the preachy, self-righteous description.

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

but still, pan and bi are the same minus the bullshit of "the soul" .what a crock.  i agree with the preachy, self-righteous description.

They’re really not, though. There are more than two gender identities. That’s the distinction. Bi = just the main two. Poly = all of them including the less common ones that aren’t straightforward male or female. There really is a difference even if Jazz explained it poorly (probably because she has no clue about her own sexuality).

  • Love 5
Link to comment
14 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Just wondering- how old are you? I’m 32 and I think women talk about their vaginas/labias/vulvas among each other, especially when discussing their sex life (positive and negative). It’s not water cooler talk by any means, but among sisters, cousins, close friends, Moms and medical professionals absolutely. Not to mention their partner! (If they are partnered).

I'm close to 60 and never discuss this with anybody (except medical professionals).  Must be a generational thing?

  • Love 4
Link to comment
7 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

I'm close to 60 and never discuss this with anybody (except medical professionals).  Must be a generational thing?

My friends and I talk about these these things, both on a sexual level and a medical concern level. For example “my vagina is into him but the rest of me not so much” aka “the sex is good but that’s all there is”.

 

I refer to this decade as “the baby crazy 30s” and being childfree sometimes I roll my eyes. My friend gave birth several months ago and came to me upset that her doctor wasn’t doing anything regarding her post-natal care, vaginal scaring etc, so I sent her to my other friend (an Ob) who’s taking her medical issues seriously. Yeah we talk about our vaginas with other vagina having persons. 

 

My Mom is an ob/Gyn who talks about her work ALL THE TIME (@doodlebug you remind me of her) and so I hear about these topics constantly. My mom will be 70 in a few months. 

 

To make this about the show, I am not surprised at all that Jazz talks about what she would like out of bottom surgery given that cis women talk about their vaginas/vulvas as well. Of course you talk about something less if it’s working well and more when there is a problem/malfunction/medical issue. 

Edited by Scarlett45
  • Love 1
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Impatient said:

And after so much inappropriate behavior, even being present for doctor's examinations of Jazz's genitalia, Jeanette has the audacity to say, "(discussion of orgasms) is a private thing.  I don't feel comfortable discussing that, Jazz doesn't feel comfortable discussing that...."  I felt like saying, "Eunuch production complete, eh Jeanette?  Now she can be a pretty china doll.  Who never leaves the display case.  Because you are now initiating a plan of shame."  

 

Yeah!  If Jazz is not comfortable discussing such a thing ON CAMERA (duh) that’s fine but with her medical care team that’s an issue. And it’s not about what Jeanette is comfortable with, it’s not Jeanette’s body or life. 

 

This is the thing, someone cannot be a poster child for XYZ and still maintain privacy around said issue. It’s very difficult and I think it’s time for Jazz to focus on her own well being and step away from the spotlight for a while. However that would be very hard to do because being a spokesperson for trans youth is a HUGE part of her identity at this point. Of course my opinion means nothing. 

  • Love 5
Link to comment

I find it troubling that they are promoting Jazz to be a normal teen, but, how is that possible?  How can she have normal relationships in a nonplatonic way, if she has no romantic interest?  Because, that's what the other person is going to be interested in.  If she isn't into that kind of thrill, they would likely feel rejected.  Even if the parties stay virgins, there would still be excitement, passion, etc. But, if Jazz continues to not have much interest in that, then her relationships would just stay platonic. And because Jazz apparently has no real desire for anything else, then, she doesn't know the difference.  It would seem to me that the family, the professionals and Jazz need a few more years to figure out all these issues.  And before any permanent surgery is performed. 

  • Love 5
Link to comment

I didn't mind Jazz's definition of pansexual so much.  She's basically saying she's not fully sure which gender she may be attracted to and she is open to anything.  The producer who explained it to one of the twins brought in the soul BS.  Pansexual = attracted to all genders or attracted to people regardless of gender.  Polysexual = attracted to multiple genders.   Both allow for the idea that there are potentially more than two genders (which is how they differ from bisexual, although many people are changing the definition of bisexual to mean attracted to one's own and other genders). A person's sexuality does not make them superior.  It is simply a part of who they are. 

With that said, I don't find it that strange that Jazz is still figuring things out.  Many of my friends kids are around  her age and working through where they fall in terms of sexuality.  She is emotionally immature for her age.  Given time, she'll get there.  It's a lot to ask of anyone to be willing to date someone who is on TV.  Add in that she is transgender and, especially at her age, most kids aren't willing to make themselves seem different in ways that can lead to being made fun of.  She doesn't have a large dating pool, regardless of her sexuality.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
4 hours ago, msrachelj said:

i'm sorry but pansexl seems to be plain ol bisexual! why the different name? attracted to souls, personality, what ever. if the same sex and the opposite sex both are attractive to you (and physical appearance is almost always the first thing you literally, see. especially at a young age) you are bi sexual. 

@msrachelj, if I understand it correctly, being bisexual is not the same thing as being pansexual. Being Bi (Bi is Latin for two) means you're into both males and females/men and women. It's one of those two options. But being pansexual means you're open to men, women, as well as trans men and trans women, and those who are gender fluid and dont identify as either male or female for whatever reason. It didn't quite make sense to me until I had a convo one day years ago with a women who was a lesbian. She was into women only as partners. She was in a long term relationship with a woman who decided years into their relationship that she was really male and started transitioning. Now, if you're a lesbian who's into women only, you wouldn't want to be with a partner that was going to transition to male and get bottom surgery and have a penis and all that goes with that because, yanno, you're into women. She was really torn up because she deeply loved her female partner but had no desire to continue in a relationship with a man, even if it used to be her former female partner. They ended up breaking up and it was quite sad, but years later, I heard she's with another woman and happy.

 

Now, if she had stayed with her transitioning partner, I wondered what she would be and how would she identify herself. She was a lesbian, only into women. But her female/lesbian partner decided she wasn't really a lesbian, she was a transman, so...what do you call that situation IF the lady I spoke with had stayed in that relationship? Now her female partner has male hormones and a penis/testicles, whatever down there...so is she still a lesbian? Or is she now straight because her partner is now male? This is where I started to understand the moniker "Queer", as I've met many colleagues over the last several years who identify as queer and it would apply to this situation I described IF she'd stayed with her partner. Does that make sense so far?

 

Now...regarding bisexual vs. pansexual, my understanding is that, as I said above, bi is a choice one makes between men or women, nothing more. But being pansexual means you're also open to those who dont fit neatly into born-as men or women. So a pansexual would likely also be open to being in relationships with transman and transwoman and anyone who identifies as being queer, which opens up one's options to much more than only two options. That's how it was described to me by members of that community.

 

Lastly, if I'm not part of that community, then I cannot say "it's a crock" because I dont know firsthand what living like that is like. It's not easy being that different from societal norms and I doubt anyone would go down that path just to annoy others, you know? Live and Let Live, I say...

 

ETA: I see Jocelyn beat me to the explanation!

Edited by gingerella
  • Love 7
Link to comment
30 minutes ago, gingerella said:

@msrachelj, if I understand it correctly, being bisexual is not the same thing as being pansexual. Being Bi (Bi is Latin for two) means you're into both males and females/men and women. It's one of those two options. But being pansexual means you're open to men, women, as well as trans men and trans women, and those who are gender fluid and dont identify as either male or female for whatever reason. It didn't quite make sense to me until I had a convo one day years ago with a women who was a lesbian. She was into women only as partners. She was in a long term relationship with a woman who decided years into their relationship that she was really male and started transitioning. Now, if you're a lesbian who's into women only, you wouldn't want to be with a partner that was going to transition to male and get bottom surgery and have a penis and all that goes with that because, yanno, you're into women. She was really torn up because she deeply loved her female partner but had no desire to continue in a relationship with a man, even if it used to be her former female partner. They ended up breaking up and it was quite sad, but years later, I heard she's with another woman and happy.

 

Now, if she had stayed with her transitioning partner, I wondered what she would be and how would she identify herself. She was a lesbian, only into women. But her female/lesbian partner decided she wasn't really a lesbian, she was a transman, so...what do you call that situation IF the lady I spoke with had stayed in that relationship? Now her female partner has male hormones and a penis/testicles, whatever down there...so is she still a lesbian? Or is she now straight because her partner is now male? This is where I started to understand the moniker "Queer", as I've met many colleagues over the last several years who identify as queer and it would apply to this situation I described IF she'd stayed with her partner. Does that make sense so far?

 

 

I remember this coming up when Chaz Bono transitioned.  His partner (I think long term) Jennifer was really confused, like "I've been a lesbian my entire life, if I still love Chaz does that mean I'm straight now?"  I think this was in the doc that he did right after he made the announcement.  I didn't really follow up so I don't know if they stayed together but I remember her really not liking how the testosterone was changing him emotionally.

My mom had a lot to say about that, even though she had no prior interest in him or even Cher.  We do not have the same opinions on such matters so I try to avoid discussing such topics with her, but I think it came up when he was on DWTS.  I finally told her "Hey, you're against people being gay and now he's heterosexual.  You should be for that, right?"  That totally stumped her and I don't think she's mentioned his gender or sexuality since.

I thought pansexual was keeping your options completely open while polysexual was being into more than one person at the same time.  Or is that just polyamorous?  

  • Love 1
Link to comment

Polyamorous is being in relationships with more than one person at a time.  Polysexual is being attracted to people of multiple genders beyond your own and one other. A person can be polyamorous and also be heterosexual, homosexual,  bisexual, pansexual, polysexual . . . .

As the understanding of gender expands so do the words describing sexuality.   (FYI - I speak to youth on issues regarding gender and sexuality as well as harm reduction). 

A person's sexuality does not change based on who they are dating.  So if a pansexual woman is with a man, she's still pansexual.  If a pansexual woman is with a woman, she's still pansexual.  It is not uncommon for partners of transgender people to question their own sexuality when their partner comes out.  Some relationships last through a person's physical transition.  Many do not.  Given the failure rate for relationships overall, especially after major life changes, it is not surprising to me that couples don't always come out the other side together. 

In some ways I think Jazz wants to push through her transition as quickly as possible to lessen the issues with dating.  As a transgender girl with male appearing genitalia her dating group is smaller than if she has female appearing genitalia - kind of the carpet matching the drapes. 

  • Love 4
Link to comment

But Jazzz doesn't seem to have sexual feelings at all. Being attracted to people's souls is not the same thing as being pansexual. Maybe she's presexual?

I was working around a group of teenagers, and there was a couple - boy and girl - sort of necking in front of everyone. Then she announced for all to hear, "I'm pansexual." Which is fine, except I think she was using it as a badge of honor, like Jazz thinks it's cool to be attracted to souls instead of, you know, actual human bodies.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
18 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

It’s my understanding that Jazz has gone through a similulated female puberty via her hormone therapy (hence why she has breasts yet hasn’t had a breast augmentation like many trans women have). 

But yes I agree that Jazz and other kids in her position are guinea pigs of sorts. For better or worst.....

Okay.  So, she has gone through a simulated female puberty, after having her male puberty blocked, which to my understanding doesn't have a lot of clinical or even anecdotal information at present as to how that affects the mental processes of libido/attraction/desire/maturity.  The physical results of supressed secondary male characteristics due to hormone blockers are reasonably well documented, but there doesn't seem to be much information on how that might also effect the brain (maturity/libido/sexual attraction to others).

To me, and admittedly I could be wrong or just uneducated, I wouldn't expect Jazz to know who she is attracted to beyond a compatible personality or "soul", regardless of gender/preferred sexuality, because her brain development has been suppressed as well.

In other words, I wouldn't expect that she would have much in common with a 17 year old female peer who was born with all of the female parts when it comes to maturity/libido/sexual attraction so to compare the two or measure her against them, would be pointless/frustrating/inappropriate.

Again, I could be totally wrong, I'm no medical professional.  My only experience with puberty is my own and I started menstruating around the same time Jazz started blocking puberty.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
56 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

But Jazzz doesn't seem to have sexual feelings at all. Being attracted to people's souls is not the same thing as being pansexual. Maybe she's presexual?

I was working around a group of teenagers, and there was a couple - boy and girl - sort of necking in front of everyone. Then she announced for all to hear, "I'm pansexual." Which is fine, except I think she was using it as a badge of honor, like Jazz thinks it's cool to be attracted to souls instead of, you know, actual human bodies.

 

35 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Jazz might be fairly asexual but panromantic (romantically although maybe not sexually interested in all genders). She has that kind of "I want a relationship" attitude without much physical desire behind it.

Of course no one can know what Jazz feels besides Jazz herself, but I think a lot of the discussion around dating and attraction is coming from a place of wanting show material rather than Jazz questioning her sexuality in an authentic way. 

I admit I’m kind of protective of her, because teenagers have it bad enough (it’s not an easy time), and teen girls especially- show too much interest in boys and you’re a “slut” or “easy” or “have low self esteem”, show too little interest then you’re a lesbian, or immature or have Daddy issues etc. Hell, I’m 32 years old and if I had $5 for all the rude things people said to me about not being in a romantic relationship with a man I wouldn’t need to work any more. 

Because Jazz was placed into the public eye at SUCH a young age, and is going through something intensely private and personal with the world watching I just shake my head. 

  • Love 3
Link to comment
2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Jazz might be fairly asexual but panromantic (romantically although maybe not sexually interested in all genders). She has that kind of "I want a relationship" attitude without much physical desire behind it.

Agree 100%! 

Your words made me realize what I've been trying to articulate for the longest time. Her attitude about relationships make me think Jazz is in love with the idea of being in love. 

I've never understood her seemingly intense desire to partner up, even several years ago. She was portrayed as being beyond boy crazy in previous seasons, but didn't seem to want to actively involve herself in activities where she might meet a boy to meet "the need to have a boyfriend" or had so much anxiety about even hanging out with boys she thought were cute. Teenagers who are preoccupied "too early" (middle school, grade 9) with the idea of having a significant other/being in a relationships/wanting to be in love have issues that cause them to seek out that partnership. They're trying to fill a void in their life and think having a romantic partner will fulfill that void. To be that young and to be that needy is a red flag that some (Jazz) is in need of therapy.

It's totally normal to go through high school without having had a "relationship" or even being kissed. I don't know what the students at her school are like, but when I listen to her, it makes me think that she is seeing the world through of a lens of "everyone has someone but me." I understand perception is reality, but she needs to take off whatever glasses she's wearing and perhaps set her mind at ease by researching (for lack of a better word) teenage dating behaviors/patterns. She could easily get that information from the friends that she met at the mixer. Her being single has nothing to do with her being exclusively transgender, which I suspect is always in the back of her mind, and that does make sense. Her age + immaturity + inability to socialize appropriately + battling depression without therapy + finding someone who can "deal with her" are all parts of the reason she's not met anyone yet. She's probably very lonely, and that's horrible to deal with. She can't just decide to stop self-isolating out of the blue; it's got to be a gradual process.

Her friend Jey (sp?), her friend from childhood (the nice one with curly blonde hair), doesn't have a boyfriend. We don't hear Jey moaning and groaning about wanting to be in a relationship, regardless of whether or not she wants to be. Being in high school is hectic enough without adding a relationship to the mix. Students should be focused not just on academics, but extra curricular activities, community service and clubs to increase their chances of being accepted to colleges. I see it every single day as a high school teacher; all "dating" does is add unnecessary drama that screws with students' self-confidence, academics and emotional health. Jazz doesn't need to be entertaining the idea of a relationship when she's got so many other issues she needs to work out.

For as active as she is in the LGBTQ community, is it so awful to suggest that she participate in community service or activities other than ones grounded in the LGBTQ arena? She'd be able to participate in something that isn't focused on her (which would be great for her learning how to socialize) and maybe meet some other age appropriate friends (looking at you Michaela Paige) with whom she can hang out with? I think she needs and deserves a wee bit of anonymity after all these years of being in the public eye. 

As the saying goes, you can't love someone else until you love yourself first. Which she would know IF SHE WENT TO THERAPY!!

Edited by Bridget
  • Love 5
Link to comment

@Bridget I don’t disagree with you BUT I also think Jazz’s attitudes/feelings are pretty common among teens that are NOT transgender. They are just common among teens! (At least in my experience)

 

Some care about dating, some don’t, some have relationships, some do not, some want to engage in partnered sex, others do not etc. The “average” teenage experience regarding dating/romance/sexual exploration is extremely varied, but many young people don’t realize that; and consequently they feel “insecure” about it.  Especially with Jeanette wanting her to date or mimic the experiences Jeanette had as a young girl because that was “her normal”.

Last season I specifically remember  @Granny58 speaking about growing up in a “dating culture” like Jeanette did and that most people (certainly not all) had boyfriends/girlfriends but maybe that’s not the trend in 2018.

At the end of the day I say young girls/women really cannot win (I speak about girls having been one not too long ago)- too much attention to boys they are boy crazy, too little and there is something wrong with them. An woman isn’t supposed to be “trying too hard” to find a man or she is desperate, but if she gets to be a certain age and isn’t partnered she is “an old maid” or at the very least people ask her “why”. If Jazz wasn’t interested in dating at all I think people would be criticizing her for that as well.

I say there is VERY MUCH a narrative that a woman’s ultimate social goal is to perform heteronormativity, and well if she does not she must gay SO let’s find her a woman (rolling my eyes). 

17 is still young, emotionally and Jazz has a lot of years to explore her romantic desires and sexuality- and that’s not even counting the challenges she faces as a trans person, just as a person; but what I want to know is why is no adult in her life telling her this?!!!

Edited by Scarlett45
  • Love 3
Link to comment
3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Last season I specifically remember  @Granny58 speaking about growing up in a “dating culture” like Jeanette did and that most people (certainly not all) had boyfriends/girlfriends but maybe that’s not the trend in 2018.

Wow, good memory!  Yes, I grew up in a dating culture, but that doesn't mean that I had a boyfriend every minute of every day.  I had long stretches of time without a boyfriend, but having a boyfriend was the typical...not "goal"...I'm struggling for the word....it was just "normal."  "Oh, she has a boyfriend."..that's normal, and not having one seemed like being in a holding pattern until you had one.  However, back then dates didn't' mean sex.  Dates were movies and bowling and parties and dances.  So it wasn't a big deal either way.  When I read your description above of how judgmental people were to you/your generation I was really dismayed.  There was no need to be either a slut versus a lesbian.  You had a boyfriend sometimes and sometimes you didn't...and it was all fine.  Ugh, I'm glad I'm the age I am.  

  • Love 2
Link to comment
18 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Wow, good memory!  Yes, I grew up in a dating culture, but that doesn't mean that I had a boyfriend every minute of every day.  I had long stretches of time without a boyfriend, but having a boyfriend was the typical...not "goal"...I'm struggling for the word....it was just "normal."  "Oh, she has a boyfriend."..that's normal, and not having one seemed like being in a holding pattern until you had one.  However, back then dates didn't' mean sex.  Dates were movies and bowling and parties and dances.  So it wasn't a big deal either way.  When I read your description above of how judgmental people were to you/your generation I was really dismayed.  There was no need to be either a slut versus a lesbian.  You had a boyfriend sometimes and sometimes you didn't...and it was all fine.  Ugh, I'm glad I'm the age I am.  

@Granny58 of course everyone is not judgmental or offensive in such a way but it happens. Each generation has its challenges- I think people have more authentic opportunities to be themselves in a lot of places in the USA and that’s a good thing. For the record I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a boyfriend/girlfriend etc if that’s what people want to do- it’s not a value judgment.

 

It being “normal”.....despite her faults I believe Jeanette does love Jazz and wants her to have a “normal life”. That’s what I’m talking about though, having a boyfriend/girlfriend was the “norm”, wanting a BF/GF was “the norm”....kids, especially kids who are different in anyway (like Jazz who is “different” than her peers being transgender) often desperately want to be “normal”. They want to fit in socially with their peers. That’s just a part of human development. I think it’s up to the adults I’m Jazz’s life to affirm that there’s nothing wrong with who she is and how she feels about this person or that person or sexuality etc, but she doesn’t have to do anything or feel anything not intrinsic to herself to be “normal”. And if she doesn’t know yet that’s fine too! It doesn’t make her “less than” to still be figuring it out.

That’s why I think Jazz has been approaching dating the way she has been, it’s not about dating so much for his own sake but just wanting to fit in. 

This intellectual discussion makes me think that human beings are far more alike than they are different, even if on the surface their lives look nothing alike. Human emotions are human emotions. 

Edited by Scarlett45
  • Love 4
Link to comment

I do not think I have ever once heard Jazz mention college except in terms of that's what she will do next.  Without any thought as to why or where or what for.  

Greg mentioned that a gap year might be necessary for Jazz, especially if she has surgery.  I think a gap year is necessary for jazz even if she never has surgery.  She is so developmentally delayed that I do not think she could possibly do well in college without an additional year of preparation.  And that year should be spent doing some kind of volunteer/service work.  Building Habitat for Humanity houses?  Or working with homeless children?  Or with battered women?  Something that would drive home to Jazz how privileged she is and how unimportant her problems are in the vast scheme of things.  

 

  • Love 8
Link to comment

I caught up on this season and wow.  Just...wow.

At what point are Greg and Jeanette going to figure out that Jazz needs intense therapy and time away from being America's #1 teen trans advocate? . And Jeanette in particular seems clueless or in denial about the fact that Jazz has many issues beyond  being a little overweight and lacking "the perfect vagina". Even with dropping 30 pounds and having bottom surgery Jazz has so much more growing up to do. 

I know the show is heavily edited and we don't see every aspect of their lives but has Jazz every discussed what she wants to study in college? Or what career she's interested in having? I was bored so I hopped on Instagram and found the pages for both Noelle and Jay (her blonde friend). We see Noelle as sort of playing second fiddle to Jazz on the show but she had lots of photos of her in class, receiving awards/recognition for something at school. Hanging out at ball games with her parents. Talking about playing video games etc. Normal teenage stuff. Noelle even had photos of herself pre-transition and I was surprised to see she was a football player! Jay had photos hanging out with friends and in her cheer uniform. 

Jazz's page was mostly publicity shots promoting the show or an appearance somewhere. It was strikingly in contrast to her friends. 

I guess my point is that Jazz has been propped up as this trans spokesperson and it seems like she has had very little time or space to actually just be a normal teen. Her escape is laying in bed and binging food. I feel for her because she seems awfully lonely and probably extremely isolated. And I can't imagine the pressure she must feel to be the most "perfect" trans young person in the spotlight. They may not be doing it on purpose but I feel her parents are using Jazz to prove a point: "Look at us! We raised our kid as trans from an early age and look how well adjusted she is!" Everything from hormone blockers at an early age to even this show is all to prove a point--and its all at the expense of Jazz. And probably her siblings for that matter because its made their lives be all about Jazz too.

I'm sure much of the bratty  behavior we see is just a symptom of what her life has been like for the last few years. Scripted, isolated and a lack of identity aside from being trans.

She's been trotted out as a prop and hasn't had a lot of time to make friends and have normal teenage experiences. That's why she comes across so much more immature than her peers. That was especially apparent when she went out with the group of kids she met at the support group or whatever. Jazz was a trans kid amongst other trans kids and wasn't the center of attention and it was obvious that is a role she is not used to. Even on her group date with Victoria she seemed totally out of her element and it wasn't because it was a date.

I also co-sign whoever said they suspect Jazz is just interested in relationships because she feels she has to be. She obviously has no interest in sex which I honestly don't think is too weird even at 17. People awaken to sexuality at different points in life and not every high schooler is out having sex. The fact that she was blocked so early is probably to blame as well.

 

That being said, I do think Jazz is struggling with trying to find some type of identity when it comes to sexuality and relationships. She obviously wants to have the same experiences her peers are--which includes dating. Her mom seems to "one of those moms" who is obsessed with their kids being in relationships. I was a adolescent counselor for awhile and there is a weird subset of parents who seem overly fixated on their kids dating lives, particularly in wanting them to date and find someone--even when these kids are literally just kids who can barely remember to do their homework at night! Jeanette seems like the type. I've heard her mention that she dated in high school and Jazz's sister Ari had a boyfriend throughout high school. She wants Jazz to have that experience too--again to prove a point that she has a well adjusted, totally normal trans teen who does what other cis gendered teens are out doing.

Again, that's a lot of pressure for Jazz who is struggling with body image as well as the idea of being trans and trying to date. Even adults who have transitioned mention the added stresses of dating while trans. 

I just think the parents (or a therapist) need to step in and say goodbye to that TLC money for awhile and let Jazz have some time to grow up. 

  • Love 9
Link to comment

you know, I don't think the TLC money is all that huge.  what, maybe $400,000/year?  OK, that is a lot of money, but it somes at the cost of opening their child's transgenderism to the world to see.   It will contribute to a trust fund as a sort of insurance policy for Jazz, but let's say there are ultimately 5 seasons.....  2 million bucks before taxes.  Not that much, really.  And I there money for the other kids?  

I don't know.  Seems lie money cannot be the motivation here.  That said, it is STILL time to walk away from this nightmare and go into therapy.  Al of them, but ESPECIALLY Jeanette.

OH and I will say it again.  I used to l like Nicole.  Not any more.

  • Love 1
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...