S01.E13: What's Past Is Prologue

[paigow]

NDA

[starri]

That.  Was.  AWESOME.

[marinw]

Glad they finally got back to the correct universe. The Mirrorverse was fun but it was in danger of dragging on for too long.

It is handy that Michael brought the Emperor back with her, she will prove useful in confrontations with the Klingons. It was nice to see some of Michelle Yoeh’s fighting skills.

That was some good captaining by Saru.

Edited January 29, 2018 by marinw

[starri]

Just now, marinw said:

That was some good captaining by Suru.

Yep.  He earned the big chair.

It made my night when he referred to Michael as "my friend."  And Michael's telling Lorca that if he'd just ASKED, the Federation would have helped him get home.

[TV Anonymous]

Now that is the way to build tension. Escape from the mirror universe only to realize that the Klingons are winning.

However, one needs to ask. If the Klingons ever be this advance in the war against the Federation, why this fact is never mentioned in Undiscovered Country? Unless of course the Discovery plays with time travel and erases this reality.

[Pippin]

To quote Sam Gamgee:  "That was an eye-opener and no mistake!"

I agree with marinw; Georgiou will be useful re combating the Klingons, she has the ruthlessness needed to make the hard decisions.  Sorry to see Lorca gone although who knows; maybe Prime Lorca was stashed in a Klingon POW camp somewhere.  They did mention that MU Lorca was brought to our universe via transporter beam so Prime Lorca was beaming off his ship. Jason Isaacs is just too good to lose.  Although if he really is gone, I'll give them kudos for not being afraid to Go There.

I was hoping they would return to the Prime Universe just before Ash/Voq killed Hugh.  I really, really hate the fact that they killed him off and I hope he gets resurrected.

Nice to see all of the Discovery crew working together. 

Was the dead security chief from the Prime Universe MU Lorca's second-in-command?  And the MU humans are tough; a year and some in an agony booth and they're loaded and ready for bear in like, 10 minutes.

It'll be rerunning again in about an hour here; probably have more comments then.

[starri]

2 minutes ago, Pippin said:

Nice to see all of the Discovery crew working together. 

And they all got name-checked!

[Primal Slayer]

It was a good episode, glad we got a version of Georgiou back! She better stay around now.

But I was not a fan to go back to the Prime Universe and now "Klingons WON THE WAR! We're in the middle of a war!" After all of this, we really needed a breather episode. 

3 minutes ago, Pippin said:

Nice to see all of the Discovery crew working together. 

That was definitely a high light and one the few moments in this series that have felt Star Trek. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

I'm gonna miss Lorca even though he was evil. Maybe Lorca Prime is still alive somewhere but the Discovery crew doesn't really need or want him anymore so I don't know where he'd fit at this point.

I was also sad to see that Tiily got her "old" hair back. That blowout was a great look for her.

[UNOSEZ]

Loved the epi.. Still woulda preferred if they showed up years into their future cuz then they aren't boxed in by too much canon.. But this was still good.. Glad emperor phillipa is with them.. They'll need her for the wars to come

[paigow]

Mirror!Klingons are "Rebel Scum", not a badass empire... Mirror!Georgiou is not going to be much help against Prime!Klingons. Prime!Discovery is now Rebel Scum...hope the cloaking device specs did not change in 9 months...

[cali1981]

Just riveting from start to finish, it was possibly the best episode of season 1.

[dwmarch]

I loved that they made like they were going to kick mirror Stamets into space and then they just shot him and laughed.

Count me among the dismayed when Tilly changed back into her regular uniform and re-did her hair. That mirror universe uniform did things for her that the regular uniform is not capable of.

There's a trap door in the throne room for the purpose of kicking people out into space? We have already seen that the Emperor has access to a flying guillotine so I guess it works...

Speaking of which, what a strange plan for taking the throne room. We'll go in there and say exactly what Lorca wants to hear and then when everyone is distracted we'll attack the guards and see how it goes.

They forgot about the light sensitivity thing at one point. When Burnham and Georgiou were chatting in the sanctuary, Georgiou walks right over to where bright-ass light is streaming in and she doesn't squint.

[Frozendiva]

Excellent episode and echoing the comments so far. Interesting if the show did kill Lorca off, but would like to see him return.

He simply could have asked for help instead of playing the long con. With Federation rules, the crew would know that he seemed off.

Good fight scenes. Liked the journey through dimensions.

[paigow]

This timeline is temporary...

10 years before TOS, Prime!Kirk was on the USS Farragut.

If Starfleet does not exist, then Kirk is likely dead and all canon is irrelevant.

Also, Pike & Spock are likely dead as well.

However, if Discovery single handedly wins the war with anti-cloak technology, all the canon about Kirk having a hard time fighting cloaked ships makes no sense...

Luckily, Mirror!Discovery is probably destroyed which avoids a lot of awkward meetings....

Edited January 29, 2018 by paigow

[aemom]

I'm not sure how MU Georgiou will play out in this universe. 

They were definitely foreshadowing something when that spore landed on Tilly's shoulder. 

I would really like to see some episodes now where we focus on the bridge crew and learn something about them. I couldn't tell you anybody's name if you paid me except for Saru.

[Frozendiva]

Only two eps this season. I too noted the spore. Most,of the crew are strangers to me.

The Emperor may have an adjustment to just being a captain. Or she will be killed off.

The show’s canon is being played with fast and loose. I would expect some sort of reset.

[ahisma]

Great episode.

Stamets is back firing on all cylinders, and he got them home! With a little help. ❤️ 

I'm sorry Lorca turned out to be garden-variety Mirror evil. I wonder if he'll ever show up in the mycelium network.

It must have been the challenge of Jason Isaacs' career, to learn enough skills to have an extensive hand-to-hand fight scene with Michelle Yeoh! 

Michael really is blinkered by her love for Prime!Georgiou. The Mirror version is basically as ruthless, specist, and cruel as Lorca—that's just their culture. Picking a side got Michael to the throne room to lower the barrier and escape, but she also picked that side out of misplaced loyalty in memory of a dead woman. What was she thinking M!Georgiou would even do in a multicultural Federation?

Outstanding captaining by Saru. I hope the position becomes permanent. It would be awesome to have a Trek series with an alien captain, and Doug Jones is killing it.

[KimberStormer]

I can't believe they didn't appear 400 years in the future, instead of 9 months.  It would have solved so many problems.  I suppose that would have been the season finale though.

It took me awhile to realize this show runs entirely on action movie logic.  "My plan is, two of us go into the bad guys' lair full of dozens of soldiers, and kill them all because we're so badass" has been literally every single plan so far: Georgiou and Burnham VS T'Kuvma, Burnham and Ash VS whatever that Klingon guy's name was, now Burnham and Georgiou VS Lorca.  And of course the thing they need to do to SAVE ALL LIFE IN THE MULTIVERSE is blow up something.  But first I must lower the containment field!  And no action movie is complete without an inspiring speech!  And let's have a fight with a sword!  Captain Proton!  So much for the First Ever Trek for Grownups.  But very entertaining.

No Voq/Ash at all!  And I feel like poor Landry gets a raw deal in every universe.  I guess that's her destiny.  (It's surprising that "unilateral decision to kill monster for no reason" Landry really was Landry Prime, but I guess that's just how she rolls.)

Don't want to get modded for talking about the preview, but I like Captain Saru, and I have no earthly idea how they'll reconcile all this with the rest of Star Trek without mashing the giant Staples reset button, which everyone of course hates...

[Pippin]

I'm watching "After Trek" and they have Jason Isaacs on; he's a hoot.  He commented that as concerns his relationship with Landry and Burnham, that Mirror Lorca is a bad dude and "he's shagging everybody".   Asked what the agonizer booth feels like? "Life under Trump".  Also, that the mirror universe is not that different from ours -- right now especially -- and they wanted to things to be relevant to things such as the rise of far right, hate groups, isolationism, etc.  He said that there are probably people here and now who agree with Lorca's speech when it comes to judging some inferior, that social Darwinism should be the norm, etc.  (Personal observation: I agree.  Tis true, tis pity, tis pity tis true.)

The writer of this episode said that the Saru speech is the moment where we see the crew coming together as the type of bridge crew we're used to, and that's why he had all the bridge members there; to show them getting to that place after the long journey they've had over this season.  He also feels that MU people can be rehabilitated, and it will be interesting to see how Georgiou reacts to the Federation universe, and no one is irredeemable.  As for Tilly's spore:  "Wait till season 2." 

As for canon, I only get irked when they deliberately ignore it or are careless (like "TATV" on Enterprise).  I don't know if the show is supposed to be in the TOS timeline or not.  But I can fanwank parallel universes to my heart's content, especially if the story is compelling enough.  As far as I'm concerned, I don't allow myself to get bent out of shape over such stuff; after all, in the end, it's a television show, and I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge the different visions of the various people involved with production.  Based on previous experience (a set visit to Enterprise and meeting both the actors and production staff of that show) I would guess that this current iteration of cast and crew love Trek and want to make it the best show that they can.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Pippin
Must proofread ... must proofread ...

[Unusual Suspect]

I think my favourite line was "if only you'd asked, we would have helped you". Definitely Starfleet, definitely Star Trek.

I really enjoyed the episode, it managed to surprise me, and it was quite entertaining. 

So, we have a ship that uses a drive system to jump universes, space and time ... I'm now wondering if the war with the Klingons will actually happen. A seasonal reset? Will Discovery never get home?

[thuganomics85]

Ah, the classic good news, bad news scenario.  Good news!  You managed to finally get back to your universe!  Bad news!  You come back nine months after you were suppose too and the Federation apparently really got their asses handed to them by the Klingions.  D'oh!!

Jason Isaacs certainly was having a blast dropping the mask and letting Lorca be all sinister up in this joint.  Not sure what was creepier: his obsession with Michael or his distain for the Federation and their ideals (especially him sneering about all alien species being equal.)  Certainly deserved that sword through the chest.  That said, the way he "died' a.k.a. falling into the network core or whatever the hell it was?  Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he somehow comes back in some form thanks to wacky sci-fi hijinks.

Once Lorca exited, I knew it was going to end with Michael saving Emperor Georgiou.  Not sure how this is going to play out.  On one hand, I guess she can use her "skills" to help take on the Klingions.  On the other hand, while maybe not as bad as Lorca, she's still from an anti-alien universe and she was pretty much running the show, so it's not like she's some innocent here.  Not sure she can really be trusted.  Curious to see how the rest of the crew will react once they find out they have a new guest.

Saru's big speech was a nice moment.  I guess he's going to have an official go at the captain's chair, now?

Liked how all the main bridge crew players played a part in the final showdown.  Also enjoyed the Stamets/Tilly scene.

That said, I shallowly wish Tilly decided to just keep her Alt-Tilly look.

Fun episode.

[Emily Thrace]

I called the time travel. I have a feeling the solution is going to be jumping back in time again. Although if it means they can save Hugh it would be great. (It would make the most sense for them to jump back right after the jumped away in the first place. )

Lorca is evil feels a little simplistic but I'm glad we got Georgiou back.

The ride the wave solution reminded me if Voyager a bit that would have been a very Janeway solution.

Also Saru is a surprisingly good captain.

[tennisgurl]

Awesome episode!

I have only two real complaints:

1. Lorca being MU Lorca seems rather...simple. Especially when he got all evil and Muahahah all over the place. I liked having such a morally ambiguous character around, who could be a real bastard, but also cared about the people under him, and constantly justified his misdeeds as pragmatism in a hard way. Making him just evil seems like a waste of an interesting character and a great actor. 

2. Tilly lost her MU outfit. She looked amazing with that hair and outfits!

 

Other than that, great stuff tonight. We have MU Georgiou hanging around, Saru making a pretty kick ass captain, and the bridge crew finally gets some time to shine. Good times. 

[AnimeMania]

I didn't like this episode, it really left me confused. A prisoner can escape and release all the other prisoners and raid the armory without anybody on the ship being alerted to their deeds. People run up and down the halls without seeing another person, but when deadly gas is released, the hallways are so full you wonder how could there possibly be that many people in that tiny space. Mirror Lorca kills Mirror Stamets without determining whether he can pilot a space ship that can travel the mycelial network.  Georgiou is crying that she is no longer Emperor because Lorca killed a bunch of people in her flying Castle. Doesn't she control thousands of space ships all across the galaxy, if she loses one, she is no longer Emperor? I thought nobody knew who the Emperor was anyway, so Georgiou could just get off the ship, blow it up, and declare herself the Emperor again. Two unarmed people stop a heavily armed rebellion (standard fare for a TV show or movie).

Next Episode: Emperor Georgiou takes command of the Discovery and throws a huge dinner party to celebrate. Commander Saru is the main course.

[DrBriCa]

5 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

But I was not a fan to go back to the Prime Universe and now "Klingons WON THE WAR! We're in the middle of a war!" After all of this, we really needed a breather episode.

It reminded me of the finale of Enterprise Season 3 when we finally got a satisfying end to the Xindi arc, only to have the last couple minutes show Earth run by Alien Nazis. Give the crew (and fans) a break for a second!

5 hours ago, Pippin said:

I was hoping they would return to the Prime Universe just before Ash/Voq killed Hugh.  I really, really hate the fact that they killed him off and I hope he gets resurrected.

Ash/Voq killed Hugh when they were already in the Mirror Universe. 

And agreed with everyone who loved Tilly's Mirror look. 

[MissLucas]

Well, I'm glad they're back in the Prime Universe - not a fan of MU plots. And I was also not a fan of Tilly's hair - I prefer the curls.

Saru definitely delivered as Captain. Can't wait to see the ex-emperor having to deal with her food in command. 

And while it was great so see how the bridge crew got to have a true ST moment of bonding I wish we would have gotten at least one episode dedicated to those characters prior to this. They all look like they have interesting stories to tell and if we knew them better this episode would have carried more emotional heft.

I'll miss Lorca - it was interesting to have a character with ruthless pragmatism on the show. I agree with @tennisurl I wish they had not turned him into a full moustache-twirling villain in the end.  I guess the ex-emperor will take over the ruthless pragmatism part for a while - we'll see how that plays out.

[marinw]

1 minute ago, MissLucas said:

And while it was great so see how the bridge crew got to have a true ST moment of bonding I wish we would have gotten at least one episode dedicated to those characters prior to this.

I can't even name them all after all these episodes. *hangs head in shame*

I wish the time jump had been further into the future too, as @KimberStormer suggested. I hope they don't go back in time to "Reset" things, that's too much of a cop-out, plot wise. Even if it does bring back Hugh. Since Wilson Cruz hinted at an "Epic love story" maybe MU Hugh is stashed somewhere.

[starri]

35 minutes ago, marinw said:

I can't even name them all after all these episodes. *hangs head in shame*

I think this is the first time they've referred to Airaim and Owosekun by name, and Owosekun not only finally got to speak, she got to speak in both universes.

I've seen a lot of comments online that since there's probably going to be a time-travel element to save the Federation (although in the preview, Admiral Cornwell says that they've lost 20% of their territory), so they can bring Lorca back.  But I kind of hope they don't.  Not because I don't like the character or especially that I don't like Jason Isaacs, but because I find myself totally into Captain Saru.

"It is well-known that my species has the ability to sense the coming of death.  I do not sense it today.  I do not have all the answers; however, I do know that I am surrounded by a team that I trust, the finest a captain could ever hope to command.  Lorca abused our idealism, but make no mistake, Discovery is no longer Lorca's.  She is ours.  And today will be her maiden voyage.  We have a duty to perform, and we will not accept a no-win scenario.  You have your orders, on your way."

Cheeky that Lorca wanted to Make the Empire Glorious Again.

[aemom]

We now have Captain Saru who is a Kelpian. MU Georgiou EATS Kelpians.

I don't think Burnham thought this through when she saved her. Reforming Georgiou to not be racist anymore is a big ask.

[UNOSEZ]

41 minutes ago, AEMom said:

We now have Captain Saru who is a Kelpian. MU Georgiou EATS Kelpians.

I don't think Burnham thought this through when she saved her. Reforming Georgiou to not be racist anymore is a big ask.

I agree.. But I woulda done the same thing.. She feels she let down prime phillipa... Who was a second mother to her.. She wasn't going to let her die doing some silly hero thing.. Plus just in case nobody believed them abt the mirror U.. They have Phillipa in all her terran racist glory to confirm.   Still holding out hope for one more mycellial network jump.  This time flinging them out of the confines of canon into somewhere and sometime new.. And then that will be the real start of the series  ..even if the rest of it will be a voyager esque trying to get HOME deal

[Helena Dax]

Oh, Lorca... Jason Isaacs always plays the hottest villains.

Giorgiou being taken to the regular universe can be interesting, but I don't know how I feel about the possibility of her redemption. Lorca was able to pretend, at least, so maybe she can learn to do that. But this would be like saying that people from the mirror universe are regular people trapped in a cruel, harsh and violent world, while I think the original point was that the mirror universe was awful because they were awful. Meaning that the Terran Empire wasn't the cause of their lack of ethics and their brutality, but the consequence. 

"We would have helped you to get home, if you had asked" is a great line, and you can see in Lorca's expression that that possibility never crossed his mind because it's so alien to him) , but to me, the winner in this episode is "Just kidding. I hate poetry".

[jsbt]

I've found a lot of the back end (and a lot of plotting and character all season, really) a mixed bag, but insanely entertaining. I thought it was a copout to go for Lorca being Mirror Universe, when to me the deeply troubled and possibly unstable Starfleet war horse was a much more compelling character. I figured Jason Isaacs, known for playing heavies, would be one season and out but to me Lorca as originally presented was far more fascinating to explore, and for longer.

The show is very enjoyable and I'll continue to support it, but it feels network TV-safe and homogenized and simplified in many ways, both production and story/character wise beyond what it could be. The Mirror Universe is a fan favorite setting, but I felt it should've come later in the series, and when it did come I felt the plot moved far too fast - Saru and co. just go with Lorca turning out to be a Mirror turncoat instantly. I still have no idea what is going on with Stamets and Culber beyond cliched dead lover dream sequences I've seen on a dozen TV shows, and I have no faith he's actually coming back, which makes killing him (while likely keeping Voq/Tyler on the show) deeply awful and pointless to me.

That being said: The show is still a ton of fun, the cast is great (more Detmer and Owosekun, please) and it's easily better than any post-TOS first season of any other Trek. Saru makes a great captain - and I hope he stays that for awhile - and Tilly really needs to get a commission. I also now - for once - have zero idea where the plot is going, especially with the Klingons having taken Federation space and Mirror Georgiou onboard. I was so hoping they'd end up post-VOY. Maybe that'll still happen, as the spore drive is still intact and so is all of Discovery's knowledge of the MU. In terms of canon none of that can be allowed to exist, so there has to be something coming. Possibly a reset button.

Edited January 29, 2018 by jsbt

[tpel]

I am disgusted with the character assassination of Lorca. Making him MU could have been a cool plot twist, yet left him an interesting character. This is a guy with the intelligence and patience to pull off the long con, a guy who, from what we saw previously, is justly regarded as a tactical genius in two universes. He could have been presented as having a compelling reason for rebellion, so that Burnham would have a tough choice as to which (if any) of those vying for the throne she should back. But no. The writers decided to make him Space Trump, railing about immigrants and promising to "Make the Empire glorious again!" Star trek has a history of dabbling in political themes, but this was just a caricature, meant to mark him as the bad guy. What a waste of one of the most fascinating and deftly played characters in all of Trek. 

Also, this: 

2 hours ago, jsbt said:

The show is very enjoyable and I'll continue to support it, but it feels network TV-safe and homogenized and simplified in many ways, both production and story/character wise beyond what it could be. The Mirror Universe is a fan favorite setting, but I felt it should've come later in the series, and when it did come I felt the plot moved far too fast - Saru and co. just go with Lorca turning out to be a Mirror turncoat instantly. I still have no idea what is going on with Stamets and Culber beyond cliched dead lover dream sequences I've seen on a dozen TV shows, and I have no faith he's actually coming back, which makes killing him (while likely keeping Voq/Tyler on the show) deeply awful and pointless to me.

In some ways, it is "Star Trek for Grown-ups" (violence, willingness to kill characters, need to pay attention to anticipate plot twists), but in others not so much. Here is hoping that in the second season it gets better.

On the positive side, I did love Captain Saru. This was the first time I saw him as ready for the big chair. I'm also happy to see him and Burnham becoming friends again. And Cornwell, whom I love, is back in the preview -- Yay! So, it's not all bad. And amidst all of the explosions and choreographed fight scenes of this week's episode, I was left with a shred of hope for a satisfying future development: we were never told definitively what happened to MU Burnham and PU Lorca. The former was conspicuously absent. She is believed dead, but neither the Emperor nor Lorca claimed responsibility for killing her or said how she died. Honestly, I kept expecting her to turn up and kick ass. Maybe she will step into the power vacuum left by Lorca's death and Georgiou's disappearance, taking charge. Also, we now know that MU Lorca came over to the prime universe using the "Mirror, Mirror" method, which might mean he swapped with PU Lorca. The latter would've ended up on the MU Buran, which was destroyed shortly thereafter. But we don't know how soon that happened. He could have realized he was in bizarro-world and fled before the attack, or his crew could have realized that something went wrong in transport and transported him back to the planet from which he was beaming, then they got destroyed and he was stuck. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by tpel

[paigow]

Waiting for Saru to get scared again and watch Burnham try to cut off his ganglia and eat it...

[Lebanna]

The Enterprise crew switched places while beaming ON to the ship, so they arrived on the transporter pad in lieu of their counterparts. This definitely sounded like both Lorcas were beaming OFF their respective Burans, which is interesting and somewhat implies that Prime Lorca may actually feel bad that he left his crew at the last moment when he finds out what happened to them, although it has to be assumed that Starfleet Lorca wasn't just abandoning them to their fate. So that surviver's guilt storyline that was so popular may even come back.

I would say that this episode made it very clear that neither Lorca is dead. Mirror Lorca (who was still alive and conscious when he became part of the spores, thereby getting rid of his useless stabbed body) and M-Lorca's obsession with fate will now be churning around in the network with all the other ghosts, sure that this is supposed to set him on the path to even greater greatness, or whatever. He's only mostly dead. He'll be back out in no time. Which is good because after this episode, I want to see both Lorcas fight each other. So I would say, before complaining that this is a waste of Lorca, let's make sure this isn't really just the very first act of Lorca madness. Nobody ever gets rid of a character like that on just ten episodes of anything.

I think Georgiou is going to be in full depressed snark mode with all of this. I imagine she will be telling Saru how she'd like to serve him (bada bam tish). I want them to keep her around in a Spike from Buffy capacity. She could just stand around and tell them all about everything they're doing wrong, from an evil perspective, and it would be gold.

Saru is getting so wonderfully dignified. It's a relief after all the crazy to see someone who is just so Starfleet and well meaning in charge, finally. Although I do want Lorca and Georgiou to stick around, I kind of also want Captain Saru to stay forever too. 

And I realised that with all this alternate universe stuff, Michael Burnham reminds me of Olivia Dunham from Fringe. Similar calm, yet totally messed up attitude, weird childhoods, similar willingness to defy what she considers to be stupid. I like them both. And she did brilliantly this episode. I loved that she come right out and said that they would have helped Lorca. Of course they would. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Lebanna

[MissLucas]

4 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

I want them to keep her around in a Spike from Buffy capacity. She could just stand around and tell them all about everything they're doing wrong, from an evil perspective, and it would be gold.

Oh, I love it! Note to TPTB: Make it so!

[clyo22]

15 hours ago, ahisma said:

Great episode.

Stamets is back firing on all cylinders, and he got them home! With a little help. ❤️ 

I'm sorry Lorca turned out to be garden-variety Mirror evil. I wonder if he'll ever show up in the mycelium network.

It must have been the challenge of Jason Isaacs' career, to learn enough skills to have an extensive hand-to-hand fight scene with Michelle Yeoh! 

Michael really is blinkered by her love for Prime!Georgiou. The Mirror version is basically as ruthless, specist, and cruel as Lorca—that's just their culture. Picking a side got Michael to the throne room to lower the barrier and escape, but she also picked that side out of misplaced loyalty in memory of a dead woman. What was she thinking M!Georgiou would even do in a multicultural Federation?

Outstanding captaining by Saru. I hope the position becomes permanent. It would be awesome to have a Trek series with an alien captain, and Doug Jones is killing it.

Thank you for writing that!

I must be the only one who didn't adore this episode. As I commented on last episode's thread I didn't enjoy Michael and Emperor Georgiou teaming up against Lorca. MirrorGeorgiou is as evil and disgusting as Lorca (turned out to be). There is no redeeming qualities in her in my opinion. I hate racism/ xenophobia / specism in every form, every iteration and every universe.

Burnham's loyalty for MirrorGeorgiou is disappointing. She is not her Georgiou! She is a monster and they downplayed her evilness in this episode, making her seem vulnerable just to win our compassion. She didn't win mine.

I'm ranting but I still love the show. I love the crew, I love how they all worked together. I love how the bridge worked together and I LOVED Captain Saru. They were all awesome!

I hope Stamets gets some time to mourn Culber.

Edited January 29, 2018 by clyo22
I forgot Saru!!

[DavidJSnyder]

Saru believed Michael about Lorca being evil really, really quickly. 

Where did Lorca and his team get their fancy new shirts?

[Quark]

It was a good episode, but it could have been excellent, mostly because it could have felt much more tense than it actually was.

Of course the stakes were high, but one thing I find with TV shows is that the music has to be there. Considering how tense the episode was, I thought the music was a bit lacking and slow. Especially in the fight scenes in the Emperor's throne room.

Don't know if that makes any sense :P.

[tpel]

1 hour ago, clyo22 said:

I must be the only one who didn't adore this episode. As I commented on last episode's thread I didn't enjoy Michael and Emperor Georgiou teaming up against Lorca. MirrorGeorgiou is as evil and disgusting as Lorca (turned out to be). There is no redeeming qualities in her in my opinion. I hate racism/ xenophobia / specism in every form, every iteration and every universe.

Burnham's loyalty for MirrorGeorgiou is disappointing. She is not her Georgiou! She is a monster and they downplayed her evilness in this episode, making her seem vulnerable just to win our compassion. She didn't win mine.

I'm with you. It was like the writers didn't want to make the characters or audience wrestle with any tough ethical questions. The Emperor had to be made relatively good, so it was an easy choice for Michael to side with her. And the Emperor, conveniently, felt that having killed her potential usurper wasn't enough for her to be able to stay in power, and thus had no problem with Michael destroying her ship. Really? I like Michelle Yeoh, so I'm interested in what they might do with her. But redeeming the character would be awful. 

[Kromm]

18 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Count me among the dismayed when Tilly changed back into her regular uniform and re-did her hair. That mirror universe uniform did things for her that the regular uniform is not capable of.

True dat.

2 hours ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Where did Lorca and his team get their fancy new shirts?

The Plot Contrivance Store?

Okay, but seriously... I think it's established that replicators already exist, right?

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

This definitely sounded like both Lorcas were beaming OFF their respective Burans

 

Mirror!Lorca was on a planet recruiting allies, when his Buran was attacked. He was beaming back when the ion storm swap occured.

[starri]

I don't think they're replicators per se.

But the Terran Empire has a jump on the Federation in terms of technology, because they've had a hundred years to play around with what's contemporary for Discovery.  Not to mention anything they might have stolen from the civilizations they conquered.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, jsbt said:

Saru makes a great captain - and I hope he stays that for awhile .

Since there are not a lot of candidates still alive, he should get his shot- after Cornwell comes back to reality....

[paigow]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Lorca being MU Lorca seems rather...simple. Especially when he got all evil and Muahahah all over the place. I liked having such a morally ambiguous character around, who could be a real bastard, but also cared about the people under him, and constantly justified his misdeeds as pragmatism in a hard way.

He murdered the Prime!Buran crew...dude does not deserve ambiguity...

[tennisgurl]

21 minutes ago, paigow said:

He murdered the Prime!Buran crew...dude does not deserve ambiguity...

But I thought it was fascinating how he justified it. They played it that Lorca, in his mind, did his crew a favor of killing them, even if the audience doesn't think it was justified at all. He thought of it as a mercy kill, and not a murder. Of course, now we know that it WAS murder and there is no ambiguity with him, but I preferred it the other way, personally. You could even have had him as MU Lorca being somewhat ambiguous, writing off the killing of his first crew as a sacrifice for the greater good or to get him home or something. But, instead they played it safe by making him a mustache twirling Space Trump ranting about evil immigrants and making the Terran Empire Great Again (TV short hand for an irredeemable villain) and being a total asshole who we can just hate and not think about too hard. To me, Lorca as an unstable morally questionable soldier (and it was kind of interesting seeing a hard ass war horse type in the Federation) making probably bad choices and getting further and further down the hole all the while trying to justify his own misdeeds as for a Greater Good (who was also very tough and almost hilariously Extra and somewhat out of place in the Federation) due to PTSD and his own obsession with winning the war is a much better character than a guy who was an evil asshole with the complexity of a Silver Age comic book villain who can be quickly disposed of, ignoring all of the moral questions he brought up. 

In many ways, Lorca made me think of my favorite Trek series, DS9, where Captain Sisko found himself making morally questionable choices for a greater good, and he and his crew tried to figure out where the lines could be drawn in the name of defeating a seemingly unstoppable enemy, while still being the good guys, and what they could live with. It was an interesting idea, and Lorca could have been a shadow of what Sisko and his crew could have become, or what Michael or any other character could become if they let their own darkness swallow them. If his obsession and his own demons had gotten him killed, or made everything worse, it could have been straight up Shakespearean tragedy. But, instead he is just dead and evil now. No harm no foul. It just seems like a huge waste of a character and a great actor if this is it. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by tennisgurl

[piequinn35]

Did Mirror Lorca murder Prime Lorca as well?

Good episode, can't wait for the meeting of Captain Saru and Emperor Philippa.

[statsgirl]

Well that explains why Jason Isaacs appeared on last week's AfterTrek via long distance.  Although when Lorca ordered Prime Stamatz dead, he could not be redeemed.

I'm looking forward to Michael convincing Phillipa she belongs in their universe now.

29 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Good episode, can't wait for the meeting of Captain Saru and Emperor Philippa.

And this. Realistically she would have a lot of trouble adapting to this universe.

A satisfying episode.  I've been bored by the Mirror Universe on the other Trek show because  it's all the same (evil, yawn) but this show kept me on the edge of my seat.

[paigow]

31 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Did Mirror Lorca murder Prime Lorca as well?

 

Not likely. Never in same universe at same time.