The Fox & the Goat: Survivor Gameplay Archetypes

[Azgard12]

She was in no danger, then non-medically flamed herself out of the game.  There's only one animal I can think of (apocryphal though it may be) to fit this kind of suicidal behavior.  Jenny may just be the first Survivor Lemming.

 

Love the term, but from post-interviews it seems the plan was to vote out Jenny anyhow.  Editing just didn't show us that.

[Guest]

Is there an archetype for "playing too hard too soon".  I think that was Jenny's problem.  Day 6 isn't the time to flip on your alliance.  

[SVNBob]

There's been a lot of talk in the episode thread that called Joe a goat, or referred to there not being a goat at FTC.  While the latter half may be true (although Tai is the closest to a Goat now, he's a bit more Ox-like), I have to take issue with calling Joe a Goat.  I don't think Joe was a Goat by the definition of this thread.  I think he was more a Bunny that Aubry was treating like a Bear.

Looking at the F4, on one level it looks like the classic roles are covered, and in the way one would expect.  Fox Aubry (Brain), Bear Cydney (Brawn), Bunny Michelle (Beauty), and Goat/Ox Tai.  However, Aubry and Cydney can make arguments at FTC that they each were both Fox and Bear.  Aubry was a physical threat in many challenges, and Cyd was scheming on the sides.  Michelle can also make arguments that could paint her more Fox-like than at first glance.

This might be the season that truly defies the classic archetypes the animals represent.

Edited May 12, 2016 by SVNBob

[cherrypj]

Bumping because this thread doesn't belong in the S32 forum. Can it be moved to the Past Seasons?

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, cherrypj said:

Bumping because this thread doesn't belong in the S32 forum. Can it be moved to the Past Seasons?

I would think that Gameplay Archetypes discussion applies to every season, including any upcoming ones.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea this should definitely be in the main forum so we can discuss the foxes, goats, bunnies, etc. of S33 and beyond.

Edited May 28, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[KimberStormer]

So I guess this is the second Cat win in just a few seasons.  Aubry had herself a pretty textbook foursome of Fox Aubry, Bear Cydney, Bunny Joe, and Goat Tai, but Michele the Cat got in there.  Very interesting.

Agree that this and the Past Seasons thread should be in the main forum.

[Whimsy]

Sorry. I guess I got overzealous when I moved the other threads

[SVNBob]

A question in the S33E04 thread made me think about this line of thought.  In particular, why Lucy wanted to eliminate Jessica.

Easy.  Lucy saw herself as the Fox, but Jessica set herself up as a Fox with Paul's boot.  (This puts Chris and Brett as Bears (which Brett would find very amusing)/Goats/Oxen, and Sunday as the Bunny).  Can't have 2 Foxes, so Lucy moved to eliminate her chief rival within the alliance.

But now, there's a new Gen-X 4, and they seem to fit the classic roles perfectly.  David became the Fox with his idol play with Ken as his Bear.  CeCe might have been the Goat before, but since Jessica is now disliked more be the rest of Gen-X, she's the new Goat, and CeCe's now the Bunny by comparison.

Over on the Millennial side, the alliance of 4 almost fits the classic plan.  Michelle would seem to be the obvious Fox, with Jay as the Bear.  The variant is that there's no Bunny, but a pair of Goats in the "power couple".  Which would seem to be the easiest and most likely successful change to the original 4 beast plan.

[NutMeg]

I love these archetypes! And the interpretation above.

More generally, what's the difference between a Bear and an Ox? I understand the Fox, the Bunny and the Goat, as well as some more exotic types, like the Dead fish, but as far as I understand it, an Ox is a challenge monster, what is the Bear? would it be an unpleasant/obnoxious challenge monster? like the missing link between the Ox and the Goat, maybe?...

[KimberStormer]

The OX is the goat who drives the game.  Russell is the classic Ox.  Controls the game like the Fox is supposed to, but does so in such a way that they cannot win.  Whereas the Goat just comes along for the ride to lose.

[SVNBob]

4 hours ago, NutMeg said:

as far as I understand it, an Ox is a challenge monster, what is the Bear? would it be an unpleasant/obnoxious challenge monster?

You've got it somewhat backwards.  The Bear is the challenge monster and/or emotional focus of the alliance (i.e., a Mama or Papa Bear).  They're also usually the "second in command" to the Fox, who is the intellectual focus.

 

3 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

The OX is the goat who drives the game.  Russell is the classic Ox.  Controls the game like the Fox is supposed to, but does so in such a way that they cannot win.

I think that the Ox can also fulfill the Bear role, and not just the Fox.  But even though the Ox is a "leader" in an alliance, the key difference is the inability to win based on their own actions.  In addition to Hantz, Sugar in Gabon is also an Ox.  The main difference is that she knew she was the Ox by the end, and thus used that power to play kingmaker.

[KimberStormer]

Dawn in Caramoan is another possible Ox, although there is perhaps some debate to what extent she drove the events of the game.  I would say it was very much Dawn's show, but a lot of people give the credit to Cochran.  In any case there was no chance she would win, whether she was the driver or the driven.

I wonder if we can call Tai an Ox, looking at last season as a whole?  The game pretty much followed his moves, emotions, and whims, for most of the season.  Yet it was a game that couldn't win the jury's respect.  Or is it just that he failed to pick the right people to take to the end?  (His betrayal of the two jerkasses has to be the most emotionally-satisfying-yet-terrible move I've ever seen.)  Like, personally, I do not see Lisa and Skupin as Oxen, just as a Fox/Bear duo (which one is which, who can say) who failed to take Goat Abi-Maria to the end, allowing a somewhat Bunnyish (or Catlike?) Denise to crush them.

Lately I've been thinking about the fact that a lot of people lose because they have incorrect schemata in their minds about how the game is going.  (I just had to use the word schemata, sorry.)  Malcolm, I think, saw Philippines very clearly in his mind as Fox Malcolm, Bear Denise, Bunny Lisa, Goat Skupin (or reverse those last, who can say).  Don't need two goats, so get rid of Abi who's impossible to live with, take out your Bear at 4 (since it's a final 3), and win the game over Bunny and Goat.  But Lisa and Skupin did not see the game that way, they were considering themselves as Fox and Bear, and you don't want two Bears or Foxes, so out goes Malcolm at 4 instead, absolutely caught unawares and shocked at his ouster.  Is that Malcolm playing badly, not paying enough attention?  Is it Lisa and Skupin playing well, hiding under a cloud of obfuscatory Christian earnestness and wacky slapstick?  And Denise, somehow even ghosting the ghosts, clouding men's minds like the shadow, so they didn't see her as a threat, but a convenient tool to defeat Malcolm for immunity, in case they can't do it themselves....what a great season, Philippines.

Edited October 19, 2016 by KimberStormer

[Guest]

I have a feeling that everyone thinks they're playing the fox out there, it's just that the editors often shape that into something else.  They're either playing to win (well or poorly) or they're playing for second as a goat, in hopes of future invites.  So the only non-editor-driven distinction for me is goats vs. non-goats.  

[SVNBob]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I have a feeling that everyone thinks they're playing the fox out there,

Not everyone, but probably the majority.  Some people go in with distinctly non-Fox strategies.  Think of every "cute" "flirty" female player that planned to use that to attach herself to someone and have them do all the work.  They're playing Bunny-style games (centered on likeability).

Or Ozzy.  He's never played a Fox game in his tenure, only Bear.  The one Fox-like move I can think of from him is when he convinced his tribe to vote him out onto RI, and even that was a plan relying on his Bear game to keep himself around.

5 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Lately I've been thinking about the fact that a lot of people lose because they have incorrect schemata in their minds about how the game is going.  (I just had to use the word schemata, sorry.)  Malcolm, I think, saw Philippines very clearly in his mind as Fox Malcolm, Bear Denise, Bunny Lisa, Goat Skupin (or reverse those last, who can say).  Don't need two goats, so get rid of Abi who's impossible to live with, take out your Bear at 4 (since it's a final 3), and win the game over Bunny and Goat.  But Lisa and Skupin did not see the game that way, they were considering themselves as Fox and Bear, and you don't want two Bears or Foxes, so out goes Malcolm at 4 instead, absolutely caught unawares and shocked at his ouster.  Is that Malcolm playing badly, not paying enough attention?  Is it Lisa and Skupin playing well, hiding under a cloud of obfuscatory Christian earnestness and wacky slapstick?

The incorrect schemata (that is a good word) really comes into play when it gets down to FTC.  That's when the aforementioned "most everyone thinks they're the Fox" is challenged the most.  Someone is absolutely mistaken.  And it's usually the person that can't sway votes by painting players as different roles, including themselves.

The Philippines is not the best example, but it does come into play.  That F4 was composed of two allied pairs; Malcolm and Denise, and Lisa and Skupin.  Each pair saw their pair as Fox and Bear.  But when Malcolm and Denise split up after Skupin won the final IC and Lisa and Skupin did not, the power resided in the unified pair, making Lisa Fox and Skupin Bear.  Denise was then successful in painting Malcolm as the Bunny; too likeable to go anywhere near FTC, where he could use that and argue his Bear/Fox game to a win.  So he gets voted out via a very Fox play from Denise, and she uses that in part to "ride the yoked Oxen" (this is the season that helped coin the usage of the Ox, thanks to that quote from Penner's jury speech) to the win.

[SVNBob]

Now that we're in the individual phase of S33, it's time for Fox hunting, with Michelle as the first victim.

And while the "Nerd Herd" alliance is very large, the basic animal strategy is still the same:

Eliminate the opposing/"Cool Kids" alliance.  Then cull the herd to one of each of the 4 primary beasts: Fox, Bear, Bunny*, and Goat.  Then the Fox and Bear battle it out at the FIC to eliminate the other, taking the other two to FTC and hopefully win.

*Or a second Goat.

[huahaha]

On 11/11/2016 at 11:01 PM, SVNBob said:

Now that we're in the individual phase of S33, it's time for Fox hunting, with Michelle as the first victim.

And while the "Nerd Herd" alliance is very large, the basic animal strategy is still the same:

Eliminate the opposing/"Cool Kids" alliance.  Then cull the herd to one of each of the 4 primary beasts: Fox, Bear, Bunny*, and Goat.  Then the Fox and Bear battle it out at the FIC to eliminate the other, taking the other two to FTC and hopefully win.

*Or a second Goat.

How would you categorize the remaining players? My guesses:

Fox: Jay, Zeke, David 

Bear: Taylor, Chris, Bret, Ken

Bunny: Will, Sunday

Goat: Adam, Hannah, Jess (started as a fox but got smacked down)

The interesting part of this season (to me) is that I think the tribe sees David as a goat, which may keep him safe longer. Will may lose some of his bunny status after pulling out that challenge win.

If the formula holds true, that leaves three likely final 4 groupings:

(1) Jay, Taylor, Will, Adam (or Hannah)

(2) Zeke, Chris, Sunday, Hannah

(3) David, Ken, Sunday (could be subbed for Hannah), Jess

Bret could get in there somehow, if one of the foxes loses a bear early. Hannah looks like she has possibilities in every group, which is great for her.

[SVNBob]

6 minutes ago, huahaha said:

Fox: Jay, Zeke, David 

Bear: Taylor, Chris, Bret, Ken

Bunny: Will, Sunday

Goat: Adam, Hannah, Jess (started as a fox but got smacked down)

Given the overall disdain for Taylor for the food theft and subsequent attitude, he's gone from Bear to Goat.  Will is Jay's new Bear, not a Bunny.

I'd put Hannah more at Bunny than Goat, although that might depend more on the others around her. 

As for Jessica... I would have said Goat had the events of her fall from power taken place later in the game.  But she's had enough time to recover from that, and the swaps and merge have given her another opportunity.  She's a Fox again, but the weakest of the Foxes and the one most likely to be seen as something else by the rest of the group.

So I'd say it breaks down as:

Fox:  Zeke, David, Jessica, Jay

Bear: Chris, Bret, Ken, Will

Bunny: Sunday, Hannah

Goat: Adam, Taylor

And here's something else unusual.  Typically there's a 1:1 relationship with Foxes and Bears.  Each Fox has one Bear, and each Bear has one Fox.  This time, it looks like there might be a change.  There appear to a couple of Bears with two Foxes, and one Bear without a Fox.

Chris and Ken are the Bears with two Foxes.  Both have a common Fox in David (although the connection between Chris and David is weaker), but Chris also has a Fox in Zeke, and Ken has a Fox in Jessica.

Bret appears to be the Lone Bear without a definitive Fox ally.  So he's Bear most likely to be cut loose first from the big alliance.  In fact, I'd almost put money down on him being the first out after Jay and Will are eliminated (Taylor might get kept because of his Goat status).

[huahaha]

On 11/14/2016 at 10:56 PM, SVNBob said:

Given the overall disdain for Taylor for the food theft and subsequent attitude, he's gone from Bear to Goat.  Will is Jay's new Bear, not a Bunny.

I still think Will's perceived as a bunny. The tribe didn't even consider voting him out this week. The week before, the point was just to hurt Jay's game, not because anyone was worried about losing to Will.

[SVNBob]

On 11/16/2016 at 11:41 PM, huahaha said:

I still think Will's perceived as a bunny.

In retrospect, this was correct.  Will was perceived as a Bunny in the group of 5 he found himself in.  But Bunnies hardly ever win, so Will felt the need to change species.  So he made his move, and he did change to something more Fox-like.  Which was his downfall.   There were already two main Foxes in David and Adam, with Jay somewhere between Fox and Bear, and Hannah trying to up her own Fox game.   So the kit got cut.

As for Sunday, we see a very important lesson.  If you think others think you're the Goat, play into it.  Never say that you might not be the Goat they think you are.  It gives people a reason to get rid of you.  Better to bleat now so you can plead your case later than to growl your way to the jury.

[huahaha]

10 hours ago, SVNBob said:

As for Sunday, we see a very important lesson.  If you think others think you're the Goat, play into it.  Never say that you might not be the Goat they think you are.  It gives people a reason to get rid of you.  Better to bleat now so you can plead your case later than to growl your way to the jury.

Wasn't Sunday gone either way though? Hannah targeted her for being a "tempting goat." Sunday's little speech made her position seem even worse, but the votes were already decided.

[Nashville]

On 12/10/2016 at 0:24 PM, huahaha said:

Wasn't Sunday gone either way though? Hannah targeted her for being a "tempting goat." Sunday's little speech made her position seem even worse, but the votes were already decided.

Absolutely.  Sunday was either:

• The goat to beat all goats - and therefore in direct competition with everyone for the #2 slot at F2; or,
• Playing the most incredibly well-hidden strategic long game in Survivor history - and therefore someone who would burn your house down in the F2 speeches.

Either way, Sunday was compost.

[KimberStormer]

I feel like your decision to make a move like Cirie taking out Courtney (which it seems Hannah may have done with Sunday) has to be strongly influenced by your perception of your ability to win immunity.  Obviously, if Cirie thought she was challenge badass enough to win and take Courtney herself, she would have done, because why take the 1% risk of people rewarding Aras or whoever when you can be sure to win against Courtney.  But Cirie knew she couldn't (especially considering her competition) and she'd have to be taken.  Right?  So maybe Hannah is thinking, she probably won't win final immunity, and it's unlikely someone would take her over Sunday, so better clear the goat spot out for herself.

Though I probably wouldn't use the term 'goat', a lot of brilliant people have arranged for themselves to be the person who seems most beatable so they can get taken to the end, from Richard Hatch himself on down.

[SVNBob]

38 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

So maybe Hannah is thinking, she probably won't win final immunity, and it's unlikely someone would take her over Sunday, so better clear the goat spot out for herself.

Though I probably wouldn't use the term 'goat', a lot of brilliant people have arranged for themselves to be the person who seems most beatable so they can get taken to the end, from Richard Hatch himself on down.

This is along the lines of what I meant to say.  Hannah suspected that Sunday thought of herself as a Fox (or Bunny) in Goat's clothing, and then Sunday admitted that she did.  But you shouldn't do that until FTC!

The "I'm beatable, so you should take me" spot at FTC may typically go to a Goat, but a Fox can plan their way in (Hatch) or a Bunny often sneaks in.  So it's mainly a spot for a reactive player and not a proactive player like a Fox or Bear.  Hannah did set herself up well to take that "reactive player" spot.  She looks like a Goat or Bunny, and not a Fox.

But the move to take Sunday out was a straight-up Fox move on Hannah's part, so that's a good part of what she could use to sway votes her direction.  She's going a little bit Chameleon there, and that just might work.

[SVNBob]

So the Chameleon tried to show her Fox colors (as I predicted), but the jury still saw her as a Goat.  (Adam kept pushing that line of logic too.)  And David's Bear turned into Adam's Bunny.

Score another win for a Fox player.

[SVNBob]

It's usually hard to use the method in this thread to classify players this early in a season  And it being an all-veteran season makes it that much harder.  These are usually a Fox battle royale, and GC pretty much has been so far.

However, there are a couple slight exceptions right now.  Ozzy's still playing the Bear game he always has.  He even had a TH in the episode saying that since he's his tribe's main provider, he'll continue to be safe.  

And because of her Fox history, Cirie's tribes have basically frozen her out, turning her into a Goat.

[KimberStormer]

Oh, I don't think we can say anything like that about Cirie yet.  She hasn't even been to tribal, and the longer she's there the longer she has to make something happen.  Anyway, you're not a Goat if nobody will work with you, you just get voted out!

[SVNBob]

22 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Anyway, you're not a Goat if nobody will work with you,

Good point.  Looks like we need another animal for the bestiary.  One to describe players that no-one will work with at all, for any reason.

For reference sake, we already have

• Fox: the intellectual leader
• Bear: the physical/emotional leader
• Goat: the beatable sacrifice
• Bunny/Hare: the likable but disposable (Hares are Bunnies outside the alliance, and usually the last ones culled.)
• Lion: Super leader combining elements of Fox, Bear, and Bunny.
• Ox: beatable alliance leader of some form (combination of Fox or Bear with Goat)
• Cat: the outsider that "lands on their own feet", disrupting the alliance's plans.
• Chameleon: someone that can take on any role as needed.
• Dead Fish: a player so monumentally lacking in every area (physical, mental, social) that they have no chance to win.

Cirie is definitely not a Dead Fish, since we know she has the mental skills and usually the social skills, to take her near the end.  But because everyone else knows that about her, she's being frozen out and not allowed to use those skills. 

For some reason, I'm thinking of Skunk.  An animal you leave alone/shoo away, lest it use it's known powerful ability against you.  But I don't know if I like the connotations of that.  Any better ideas?

[Vyk]

4 hours ago, SVNBob said:

For some reason, I'm thinking of Skunk.  An animal you leave alone/shoo away, lest it use it's known powerful ability against you.  But I don't know if I like the connotations of that.  Any better ideas?

I'm simply thinking Bug.  No one likes bugs, no one trusts bugs, no one sees many uses for bugs, no one needs bugs.  So they just squash them.  Just like a player with whom no one wants to work.

Another possibility is Rat.  Same things as I said above.  Or that can just be used for an untrustworthy player in general with whom no one wants to work because his or her deceptive play is well-known.

[Oholibamah]

9 minutes ago, Vyk said:

I'm simply thinking Bug.  No one likes bugs, no one trusts bugs, no one sees many uses for bugs, no one needs bugs.  So they just squash them.  Just like a player with whom no one wants to work.

Another possibility is Rat.  Same things as I said above.  Or that can just be used for an untrustworthy player in general with whom no one wants to work because his or her deceptive play is well-known.

In the original lore, Hares who make an endgame play for the win are said to have turned "Rat". Kelly Wiglesworth would be the OG Rat, which makes Sue's FTC speech even more appropriate. 

[MrsR]

I think some of J.T.'s hubris was based on the fact that he knew Michaela, or anyone else, didn't have an idol because HE had the idol. He knew he couldn't get idoled out. 

[SVNBob]

So, looking at the F3 of Game Changers: Brad thought he was a Lion bringing a Goat and a Bunny (Sarah and Troy, respectively) to FTC.  While Sarah was a Fox following behind an Ox and a Bunny/Goat (Brad and Troy). 

And Troy...what did he think was happening?  I'm not sure how to classify this group from his perspective.

Tai would have been a great Goat for anyone to take to FTC, but Brad thought Sarah had that covered.

[Nalan]

From what I could see of the F4, Sarah was very clearly the Fox, and in the late goings of the game, she aligned herself with the Bear that was Brad.  And I think Troyzan and Tai could've easily exchanged Goat and Bunny status.  I think Troyzan was the easy Goat, though, and Tai was the Bunny.  Though since he at least tried to make a move with suggesting causing the tie to make fire, he could've been a Rat, too.

In addition, I think it was both Cirie's intention to be a Fox and use Andrea as her Bear (at least before she voted her out), and then let Michaela be the Goat and probably Sarah or Aubry to be the Bunny.

[KimberStormer]

Troy thought he was a Bear with a pair of Oxen, I imagine.  Brad certainly made himself goatish enough and Sarah was getting the stink-eye from the jury.

[simplyme]

I'm having more and more trouble shoehorning people into these archetypes. I mean, they kind of work, but people often shift through several and seem to also be defined by what roles are already taken.

For example, I'd generally consider Cirie a fox, but if she had somehow ended up in the F3 with Sarah (I know, no one lets Cirie near the F3), I think she might play the bunny role. Yes, in FTC she would highlight her fox traits too (gameplay), but I think she'd use her social game (bunny-ness) as the real key to try to turn fox Sarah into goat Sarah for having flipped and backstabbed. She'd be a foxy bunny.

[SVNBob]

6 hours ago, simplyme said:

I'm having more and more trouble shoehorning people into these archetypes. I mean, they kind of work, but people often shift through several and seem to also be defined by what roles are already taken.

The archetypes are more meant to be a generalization of how someone is playing Survivor; the broad strokes of their game.  You're right in that most* players adapt and react to how the game is evolving around them, and fill niches as needed in order to continue their game.  Your Cirie hypothetical is a good example of that. 

And it's also why we've added the Chameleon archetype to the list, to reflect a player (usually a winner) that does visibly adapt a lot and change "species" throughout the game as need be.

 

*Except Ozzy.  The man can't not play a Bear game, as his performance on the GC jury showed.

[SVNBob]

I got to thinking about this thread.  I know that back with the announcement of BvBvB, I said that those 3 tribes generally each fell under one of the primary 4 animal archetypes: Brains = Fox, Brawn = Bear, Beauty = Bunny.  (Goats grow organically in the game.)

Does HvHvH fit this line of thought as naturally as BvBvB?  Do the Heroes all generally fit under one archetype? The Healers? The Hustlers?  Or is it more like a typical season where the tribes are a mixed menagerie to start?

[303420]

I think it would be difficult to say that each category fits neatly into an archetype, but I think it might be possible to create a likelihood of archetype behavior based on the categorization. For example, is it more likely that a Hustler will be a Fox or a Goat than a Bear or a Bunny? I think so. On the other hand, Healers seem more likely to be Bears or Bunnies, and Heroes scream Bear or Fox.

Of course, though, roles can change even within the game, but it still seems a stretch from "Hustler" to "Bunny." A Hustler doesn't seem like the kind of person content to fade into the background. Neither does a Hero. Does their inability to do so become a liability in the game?

[SVNBob]

10 hours ago, 303420 said:

I think it would be difficult to say that each category fits neatly into an archetype, but I think it might be possible to create a likelihood of archetype behavior based on the categorization. For example, is it more likely that a Hustler will be a Fox or a Goat than a Bear or a Bunny? I think so. On the other hand, Healers seem more likely to be Bears or Bunnies, and Heroes scream Bear or Fox.

Hadn't thought along these lines, but that does make a lot of sense.  Not just one general archetype per tribe, but two.  A sort of midpoint between the tribal specialization of BvBvBs and the menageries of all other seasons.  I'm going to try to keep that idea in mind while watching this season and see if it fits.

 

10 hours ago, 303420 said:

Of course, though, roles can change even within the game, but it still seems a stretch from "Hustler" to "Bunny." A Hustler doesn't seem like the kind of person content to fade into the background. Neither does a Hero. Does their inability to do so become a liability in the game?

As with every game, that depends on a number of other factors beyond just the archetypes.  Alliances and numbers still play a huge part.  Even the most Chameleonic player can't win if they end up staying on the wrong side of the numbers.  But an inflexible Fox or Bear with the better numbers and the right allies (Goats and Bunnies) can.

[SVNBob]

Been a while since we visited the Survivor zoo...

Going back to HvHvH, Ben turned out to be a Cat, since he blew his own Fox game when he turned on his alliance with Lauren.  Chrissy took the Fox spot in the Finals, with Ryan as her Goat and Devon as the closest thing to a Bear there.

Now onto Ghost Island and the merge boot.  Dom and Wendell are indeed a pair of Foxes.  And Chris was practically a prototype Ox.  Typically, counter-Foxes should want to eliminate one of those two Foxes and ride the Ox.  Libby and Jenna, who seem mostly Bunny-like, were the only one that we saw give any indication of thinking along these lines.  (Which would explain why Dom and the Naviti women see Libby as a threat.  She's more Fox-like than she appears.)  But the Foxes both lived, and the Ox was the one that was culled, practically unanimously.

Strategically, this seems like a bad move for any Foxes other than Dom and Wendell.  And it might turn out to be.  But I think this vote indicated that this particular Ox was more a Bull in a China Shop.  He was making camp life less tolerable, and sometimes the short-term goal of eliminating a pest before a counter-Fox is the better move.  After all, Foxes are mainly strategic threats, not challenge threats.  So there's usually more opportunities to eliminate another Fox since they're less likely to have regular immunity.  (Idols are a different story.)

[KimberStormer]

Do you not see Wendell as a Bear?  I know he's smart, but I feel like he's taking the "Fox's more honorable second-in-command" role quite deliberately.  Maybe that's a level too meta to be a genuine Bear but I don't know if the rest of the cast would think that way.  If the hinted foursome of Dom-Wendell-Laurel-Donathan is a real thing, I would think of Dom as the Fox, Wendell as the Bear, Donathan as the Bunny, but I don't know where Laurel fits in.  Another Fox, which sounds bad for business.  If Wendell is also a Fox, that could be a spectacular disaster as everyone tries to eliminate the others.

Of course, it's hard to say this early.  People would probably have thought of Ryan and Chrissy as a pair of Foxes at this point last game, but Ryan was 1000% Goat by the end.  (I would call Devon a classic Bear for sure!)

[SVNBob]

9 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

Do you not see Wendell as a Bear? 

I almost put down Wendell as having Bear tendencies, but ignored that since it didn't fit with the story of the episode as shown.  (Hey look at me, I'm a Survivor editor. ;) ) But Dom also has some Bear characteristics.  Bears are both the physical players and the emotional touchstones.  Wendell's Bear tendencies are on the physical side, but Dom seems more emotionally connected with his alliance.   In a way, both men are both Fox and Bear, but it was simpler to just call them Foxes for the write-up.  (Again, Survivor editing!)

20 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

Of course, it's hard to say this early.  People would probably have thought of Ryan and Chrissy as a pair of Foxes at this point last game, but Ryan was 1000% Goat by the end. 

This too.  FTC truly defines who was what.  It's not just what archetype you thought you played, it's what archetype the jury saw your game as.  That's how Oxen got born.  So a pair that could both be Fox or Bear depending fits for now.  And if both make the finals and one wins, the reason for their win will define their species.

That said, Donathan is definitely the Bunny of the alliance.  Laurel is harder to read, but that seems to be her strategy.  If anything, she's got a super stealthy Fox game going (with hints of Bear athleticism).  She might be trying to Chameleon it for the time being, then emerge as full Fox once the more visible ones get caught.

Sebastian is also pure Bunny btw.  While some might compare him to Bear Ozzy, he's more like Bunny Woo.

[Oscirus]

FIrst time trying this using those parameters.

If we're just talking that alliance, I'd argue:

Wendell's the fox.  For better or worse, his and Dom's only major plan was his.  Boot angela, was edited to be his idea,  and despite Dom's objections, they still tried to align with Chris until it was no longer a viable alternative.

Dom's the goat/ox we've seen his tendency to rub people the wrong way. It was likely played down more due to his feud with Chris.

Laurel's the bear hiding behind the naviti boys. Will likely hope to get to the finals that way while using her maolo connections to win it all.

Donathon's the bunny. But that's an obvious one.

[303420]

Wendell is most definitely a bear. Ben was a bear too (Chrissy's), but he was what happens when you let a bear into the finals (i.e., they win). This is the primary reason that I am very anti the new F4-->F3 format. Fucks up the Fox's whole strategy. Idols and advantages get in the way too, but part of being a good player in any role is accounting for potential monkey wrenches and having the ability to adapt.

[SVNBob]

Some talk in the most recent episode thread made me have to dig this one up.  Because, my fellow Survivor zoologists, we need to talk about Christian.

I'm sure that all of us that read this thread and do Survivor analysis in this manner, even for just a moment, would classify Christian as a Fox.

Thing is, he's not really playing a Fox game.  He basically said so in the most recent TC.  He's been trying to downplay his game so as to not be an obvious threat.  And it's worked... sort of.  The Goliaths do not see him as a Fox threat.

 

They see him as a Bunny threat.

 

Think about it.  Every episode so far has had at least one person say at some point how much they like Christian and/or how much they want to work with him.  He even expressed surprise and joy that he was a social center in the game.  That's the very definition of the Bunny: the likable one.

Bunny wins are so very rare, because there's a fine line to walk.  You have to be likable without being too likable.  Christian is on the too likable side of the line right now.  That's why he's getting targeted.  If he wants to win, he's got to step up on his natural Foxness and plan his way in, but rely on his Bunnyness to soften the blows enough to not have a bitter jury.

 

In other animals, Angelina thinks she's the Foxiest of Foxes to ever Fox, but I'm pretty sure that she's viewed as an Ox at best.  She'll be lucky to get the Goat position at the end, if she can even get there.

[KimberStormer]

Yeah, I'd never call Christian a Fox.  He hasn't really done any strategic thinking or active work that way at all.  He's just charming, and other people come to him: Gabby, Nick, the Brochachos, Alec.  His confessional remarks on playing are vague and unspecific, just sort of general observations about Survivor (to be fair, this is a favorite of the producers, people not saying "I need to do x" but "in this game, sometimes you need to blah blah blah", because they can use that in the edit without giving away the end.)  I agree, Bunny for sure.  And conversely, I suppose many would think of Alec as a Fabio-like Bunny type, just a chill dude people like to hang with, but he's all Fox in intent and gameplay.  (Might not be so successfully, but that's the game he's playing.)

How about Nick? 

[SVNBob]

Us seeing Christian as a Fox would have been based solely on first impressions, whether that be from preview material or just the first episode.

Agreed about Alec being a surprise Fox in Bunny's clothing. 

Nick's also more Fox than anything else.  Each new alliance meant a new strategy, or a tweak of his overall one.  Either way, they were the moves of a Fox.

Edited November 15, 2018 by SVNBob

[SVNBob]

On 11/15/2018 at 4:36 AM, SVNBob said:

Agreed about Alec being a surprise Fox in Bunny's clothing. 

Nick's also more Fox than anything else. 

Quoting myself here, because I realized something.  Not only is Alec a Fox in Bunny's clothing, so is Nick to a certain degree. 

In the Secret Scene I posted in the most recent episode thread, we're shown Christian filling Gabby in on what had just happened with the John vote.  Nick is given credit for bringing the voting plan to Christian, with Christian calling Nick a genius regarding the plan.  And Gabby commenting that his Southern accent is good camouflage.  Nick also brings it up in a TH that his "Aw shucks" manner is hiding his true intentions.

Which means that there's a couple of different ways to look at this season via the bestiary.  One is that we've got a few Chameleons in the mix.  Or it's a season of people looking like one animal while actually being another.

[SVNBob]

Some thoughts that just occurred to me re: EoE and this topic;

• It's going to be a Bear that returns from the Edge. 
• This is probably going to be a season that is not going to be a Fox win.
• If the jury is composed entirely of EoE residents, then the most Bunny or Goat-like of the finalists is likely to get the win.

[SVNBob]

On 3/17/2019 at 1:39 AM, SVNBob said:

Some thoughts that just occurred to me re: EoE and this topic;

• It's going to be a Bear that returns from the Edge. 
• This is probably going to be a season that is not going to be a Fox win.
• If the jury is composed entirely of EoE residents, then the most Bunny or Goat-like of the finalists is likely to get the win.

Yup.

Chris was a Bunny-like Bear.  Gavin was the weakling Fox.  And Julie had a pair of horns on her from the moment she connected with Ron.

Edited May 16, 2019 by SVNBob