S05.E08: The Last Day

[paigow]

Coulson and the team discover that the most unexpected person from S.H.I.E.L.D.'s past may hold the key to preventing Earth's destruction.

[MisterGlass]

So Robin saw not only different points in time but also different timelines.  No wonder it was difficult to keep it all straight.

The little hints at the way the disaster unfolded in the flashbacks worked well.  I didn't think they would show how the characters lived through time if they weren't brought forward.  May as Robin's surrogate mother was an interesting change of pace for the character.  I buy her playing the long, long game in trying to save the world.

I like the creature design on the roaches.

[Lantern7]

I just need to get stuff cleared up.

• Daisy destroys the world
• The gang manages to survive, though they're frustrated by Robin's abilities.
• Robin meets the team we know . . .
• . . . but they were propelled forward in time by Enoch.
• So, if SHIELD goes back to their proper time, the crap timeline doesn't happen.
• But Daisy still might destroy the world
• But her teammates survived and acted like they had not been in the future.

It's like I can grasp the concept, but it keeps slipping out of my hand. Basically, I'm kinda tired of blue assholes and human assholes and giant cockroach assholes. The only really nice part of this week's episode is seeing May as the greatest post-apocalyptic adoptive mother ever. Oh, and Mack demonstrates the magic of the shotgun axe to Flint. Who needs Mjolnir? Just send Mack to meet Thanos and embed that baby in the swollen purple noggin. But then we wouldn't get a fourth Avengers movie . . .

ETA for the two or three people who would get it: "Now there are three Axls. But Axl is dead."

Edited January 20, 2018 by Lantern7

[UNOSEZ]

May as adoptive mama was great... As is yo yo... Totally confused by all the timelines.. But I think that the 2022 or 2025 can't remember.. That stuff and what preceded all that madness is what the team will encounter when they get back home... Like whatever it is that starts to destroy the world will probably be happening or abt to happen  in their present 

[Lady Calypso]

I do like how this show does tend to sprinkle information throughout episodes instead of waiting several episodes. This time, we find out that Flint is the key to stopping things. Or, part of the key. And even when the team finds a way to go back to their time, it doesn't stop the future they're in now from happening. They still have that issue to deal with, but their travels to the future by Robin and Enoch happened for a reason. Clearly, there is still an answer to stopping it in that timeline, or else why bother sending them there? 

I'm not surprised at Robin's death at all. I think having someone who can see the past, present, and future is useful for a time, which is why she couldn't be in any more episodes. It would be too convenient to get any type of information. But how sweet was it to find out that May became Robin's mother after her other one seemingly died from the apocalypse? It had to suck for Robin to be able to see everything, though. That's not a life to live, and she had to live 80+ years of it. 

Interesting to see the timeline as it was if the Agents hadn't been pulled forward in time. We know that Mack would have died for sure, Daisy's MIA/likely dead, and no sign of Coulson, but everyone else managed to survive long enough. We know the Diner scene is the last time the entire team was together in the alt timeline. We know Jemma would have died sometime after 2022, and her and Fitz did get married at some point between 2018-2022 (I noticed a ring on his finger). Also, the fact that their timeline versions tried changing the past before, to no avail. 

In other news, Deke got some actual character development. Voss might or might not have killed Daddy Shaw (I'm leaning toward that not being the case), but Deke's family have, or had, pieces of the Monolith. So Deke's family is the key to finding the rest of it, I gather? Surprisingly, I was not annoyed with Deke this episode. In fact, this is the first time I'm kind of intrigued with his character. 

The Mack/Yo-Yo/Flint stuff was alright, but it was mostly filler. There was the return of the shotgun-axe, though! 

I will say that the season is a lot better than how it started for me. I'm more curious than I was in the premiere. Honestly, I couldn't give two shits about the Lighthouse plot, but I'm interested in Kasius and Sinara, especially with her tracking the others down on Earth. 

[thuganomics85]

Any time any show goes too deep in the time-traveling stuff, it tends to hurt my head, so I definitely found this episode confusing and hard to follow at times.  But generally, I get that after Earth was destroyed, Robin basically traveled on the Zepher with the original (?) survivors, and ended up forming a bond with that May, after her mother passed, I guess.  Fitz and Simmons also both made it (although it sounds like Robin told Fitz how Simmons died and it understandably freaked him out), but it sounds like Mack had been a victim of the Kree somehow, and that lead to that version of Yo-Yo likely dying in a retaliation attack.  Yikes!  And it seem like it was Fitz and Simmons who created to blue prints for the time-traveling machine.  I'm sure there was a lot more going on that went over my head, but better then nothing, I guess!

Always good seeing Michael McGrady, but he tends to play somewhat dubious characters, so I wasn't surprised that Voss ended up trying to take out Daisy in order to "prevent her" from going back to Earth.  He did end up getting Robin instead, but she was able to tell Melinda how they can save Earth, and it seems like Flint is an important part of this plan.

Mack and Yo-Yo continue to be the best between how she took out the "roaches" and, of course, the return of the shotgun-axe!!

Kasius is just going full-blown "Fuck the humans!" now, which is bad news for everyone.  And now Sinara is on Earth, getting ready to hunt the team down.  Uh oh!

Definitely like seeing more team interplay this going around, including Fitz and Simmons getting some TV-PG action (it is Marvel/Disney after-all!), and Coulson and Melinda together again.

Have a feeling Deke's dad isn't actually dead.

[CaptainTightpants]

YoYo was stupendous! I'm glad that she finally got an opportunity to really show off the awesomeness of her powers. And then she followed it up by starting the rebellion, so a solid 10 for her this week. 

And I'm glad that she and Mac acknowledged the excellence of Fitz's care package. Even if he wasn't there to be validated. 

The whole timeline thing where they were trying to kill Daisy to "prevent" her from destroying the world, doesn't work for me. What did he think would happen? He would stab her to death on the zephyr in the future, and then the timeline would readjust like and inflatable raft? Presto, a brand new planet?I don't think that is how these things work. 

The whole Daisy destroyed the world thing still doesn't make any sense to me. Nobody knows what happened. And the video showing her in an abandoned city, followed by a 12.8 earthquake "cracking the world like an egg" doesn't explain anything. No earthquake should crack the world apart, the mantle and core wouldn't crumble like that. I can't decide if the show is playing fast and loose with science or if there is an actual valid explanation coming our way. Given that this shard of a planet still has an atmosphere, I am leaning towards "magic science" that doesn't make any sense sadly. 

[AimingforYoko]

Of course Flint is important to the plan, his power is rocks and they happen to need a lot more of a particular kind of rock.

Robin's power reminded me of how the heptapods perceived time in Arrival.

[Pallid Man]

1 hour ago, MisterGlass said:

So Robin saw not only different points in time but also different timelines.  No wonder it was difficult to keep it all straight.

 

I missed the first 20 minutes, was it explained then how the two different timelines are working? I was pretty confused, but the one Robin was seeing (Fitz building time machine, Robin daughter to May, etc), is that a "what would happen if they were never sucked into the future" timeline or a "their current selves get sent back again" timeline? 

[ohjoy]

I may have severely overcomplicated the thread between all the timeline scenes, but I assumed those were glimpses of Robin's past/our team's future in the same timeline. She said they could get back, but did she actually say they would stop the world from splitting apart once they did? (I might have missed it.) I kind of figured that somehow all of those scenes would come to fruition eventually, thus reinforcing Fitz's point about trying to change time. Even once they do get back to their own time, it may take them a lot longer to save the world than they think.

But like I said, I may have overanalyzed some things. (I kind of hope I did.)

[Jack Kerouac]

I think that Robin sees multiple timelines. That's the part of Fitz's time travel theory he hasn't accounted for. Changing time is very possible if at the point of the change, the timeline splits into two - the original timeline where the world is destroyed and the second timeline where the Earth is saved. That way, Fiyz's theory is still correct, but it allows for changes to the timeline as well.

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

The whole Daisy destroyed the world thing still doesn't make any sense to me. Nobody knows what happened. And the video showing her in an abandoned city, followed by a 12.8 earthquake "cracking the world like an egg" doesn't explain anything. No earthquake should crack the world apart, the mantle and core wouldn't crumble like that. I can't decide if the show is playing fast and loose with science or if there is an actual valid explanation coming our way. Given that this shard of a planet still has an atmosphere, I am leaning towards "magic science" that doesn't make any sense sadly. 

I still think it ties into Infinity War and Thanos.  Daisy herself would not be able to do that damage without an Infinity Stone.  If she could do that much damage by herself, there would be nothing left of Sinara.

I love May as the mother to Robin.  May's proven herself to be a great mom to all 4 of her kids, Robin, Daisy, Simmons, and Fitz.  She's team mom for a reason.  I'm just hoping that this isn't building to her death.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

I think that Robin sees multiple timelines. That's the part of Fitz's time travel theory he hasn't accounted for. Changing time is very possible if at the point of the change, the timeline splits into two - the original timeline where the world is destroyed and the second timeline where the Earth is saved. That way, Fiyz's theory is still correct, but it allows for changes to the timeline as well.

Then do they actually change anything? Or just choose the preferable destination while both destinations continue to exist? 

I get get your point. Maybe if you intervene just before the timeline split it never happens. Keep your dog inside the day he’s hit by a car. Two years later he alerts the family to a gas leak. 

[paigow]

May & Robin = Ripley & Newt

[Lobsel Vith]

I don't understand why the team was suddenly 'buddy buddy' with Deke. Fitz and Simmons wanted to kill Deke in the last episode for selling Daisy into slavery, and now it seems like they don't care? Daisy was furious about what Deke did in the last episode, and she doesn't seem to care, either. This comes across like poorly written fan fiction. Why have Deke sell Daisy into slavery if you're simply going to handwave what he did? Not only do you have people who aren't going to overlook something of that magnitude (because this is slavery we're talking about, and no Sob Story from Deke excuses that), but it comes across as jarring when you have characters forget about it.

[CaptainTightpants]

25 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I don't understand why the team was suddenly 'buddy buddy' with Deke. Fitz and Simmons wanted to kill Deke in the last episode for selling Daisy into slavery, and now it seems like they don't care? Daisy was furious about what Deke did in the last episode, and she doesn't seem to care, either.

That struck me too. I was watching Daisy give Deke a pep-talk about bonding with his Dad, and I was like "did I miss an episode somewhere"? Deke hasn't actually done anything to redeem himself at this point. And the whole team is all gooey-eyed over him because he thought his dad was dead. Inconsistent characterization for sure. 

I am thankful that the show allowed Daisy to remember how to fight in this one however. They are all over the place with her abilities and powers, sometimes she is a badass field agent and sometimes she can't throw a punch. 

[SnoGirl]

Im kinda concerned about Flint. He can control rocks. The Earth is one massive rock. I’m starting to think maybe the simplest explanation is what happened, Flint destroys the Earth, not Daisy. Im assuming like everyone else, Flint puts the Monolith back together and they bring him with bc there’s no way YoYo and Mack can leave behind another child. Something happens, and Flint snaps. Mack and Daisy try to stop him.

 

I liked the idea that Robin screwed with the timeline. She’s the reason why they were snatched out of the dinner. Maybe her power isnt seeing the past and future, maybe its that she disrupts timelines. Powers that are needed rather than random? If time is fixed, they needed something to disrupt it.

[Lady Calypso]

29 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Im kinda concerned about Flint. He can control rocks. The Earth is one massive rock. I’m starting to think maybe the simplest explanation is what happened, Flint destroys the Earth, not Daisy. Im assuming like everyone else, Flint puts the Monolith back together and they bring him with bc there’s no way YoYo and Mack can leave behind another child. Something happens, and Flint snaps. Mack and Daisy try to stop him.

You see, the only issue I have with that is since Flint is from the future, how would he have been able to destroy the world in the original timeline, where the team hadn't had gone to the future yet? Time travel is confusing, but this theory just doesn't really connect with me. Now, I could see them going down this route, but it's still questionable. I assume Mack and Yo-Yo will bring him to their time anyway, if he wants to go, and I could see them bringing upon this twist, but they'll really need to explain it to me in order for me to buy it. 

[Lobsel Vith]

19 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

You see, the only issue I have with that is since Flint is from the future, how would he have been able to destroy the world in the original timeline, where the team hadn't had gone to the future yet? Time travel is confusing, but this theory just doesn't really connect with me. Now, I could see them going down this route, but it's still questionable. I assume Mack and Yo-Yo will bring him to their time anyway, if he wants to go, and I could see them bringing upon this twist, but they'll really need to explain it to me in order for me to buy it. 

Flint could be the reason why Earth doesn't get destroyed due to his power. Despite the heavy-handed implications from various characters that Daisy is responsible, the more logical explanation for the scene we saw would be that she failed to stop the actual reason behind the Earth's destruction. Flint's power could make all the difference.

[Proteus]

I keep wondering if Dekes parents are Fitzsimmons.

[UNOSEZ]

11 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I keep wondering if Dekes parents are Fitzsimmons.

I doubt it.. How would he not recognize them... He blamed his father for his mothers death... Also I can't stand deke.. Such a cookie cutter rougish character who betrays but comes around and yadda yadda... No thanks let him die only bring back Flint & Sinara and maybe kasius (tho if he dies I'm good there as well

[SnoGirl]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

You see, the only issue I have with that is since Flint is from the future, how would he have been able to destroy the world in the original timeline, where the team hadn't had gone to the future yet? Time travel is confusing, but this theory just doesn't really connect with me. Now, I could see them going down this route, but it's still questionable. I assume Mack and Yo-Yo will bring him to their time anyway, if he wants to go, and I could see them bringing upon this twist, but they'll really need to explain it to me in order for me to buy it. 

 

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Flint could be the reason why Earth doesn't get destroyed due to his power. Despite the heavy-handed implications from various characters that Daisy is responsible, the more logical explanation for the scene we saw would be that she failed to stop the actual reason behind the Earth's destruction. Flint's power could make all the difference.

This is the problem with time travel and loops. I wish this had been an alternative universe story. You’re right, my theory doesnt work bc of the loops. My thinking was:

1)travel back in time with Flint before the earth ripping happens

2)Flint rips Earth. Sets in motion the storyline

BUT. Would Flint cease to exist if he travels back in time? If they leave him behind, would the Earth still rip? And would our heroes then relive the Earth ripping know what they need to change? And the loop still doesnt work because we need the original earth destruction for it to set things in motion.

And now my brain hurts.

I still think Deke is a Hunter/Bobby offspring. But how did Robin get on the plane with May, FitzSimmons and other random Agents of Shield? Did something happen to Hunter that he wasnt on the plane with them?

[paigow]

4 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Deke hasn't actually done anything to redeem himself at this point.

He deduced that Voss was lying about the monolith fragment and made the team suspicious of Voss....

[Lobsel Vith]

10 minutes ago, paigow said:

He deduced that Voss was lying about the monolith fragment and made the team suspicious of Voss....

Considering that Fitz and Simmons were surprised about being locked in the room, Coulson and May were surprised when they saw a group had locked Fitz and Simmons in a room, and Daisy was ambushed (which required her to use her training from May to survive), are you suggesting that Deke selling Daisy into slavery was redeemed because Deke confronted Voss about his suspicions regarding the monolith fragment? Because that makes absolutely no sense.

So far, there's no reason for Deke to be on the team. Deke wasn't necessary for flying the spaceship, so it made no sense for the team to bring him with them. There's no reason for anyone to instantly forgive Deke for selling Daisy into slavery, particularly Daisy herself. Even Deke being spared in this episode made no real sense, and only happened because he's apparently under Plot Protection. He's done nothing interesting. His Sob Story was seen a mile away, which is why you had fans pointing out he'd use some Sob Story excuse as early as the first episode of this season. We lost two characters of color this season and yet we still have this sorry excuse of a Reverse Ward, and he adds nothing interesting to the show.

Seeing how Deke has worked for Kasius and has presumably done other terrible things for him, I'm not seeing why I should care about Deke or like Deke.

[UNOSEZ]

34 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Considering that Fitz and Simmons were surprised about being locked in the room, Coulson and May were surprised when they saw a group had locked Fitz and Simmons in a room, and Daisy was ambushed (which required her to use her training from May to survive), are you suggesting that Deke selling Daisy into slavery was redeemed because Deke confronted Voss about his suspicions regarding the monolith fragment? Because that makes absolutely no sense.

So far, there's no reason for Deke to be on the team. Deke wasn't necessary for flying the spaceship, so it made no sense for the team to bring him with them. There's no reason for anyone to instantly forgive Deke for selling Daisy into slavery, particularly Daisy herself. Even Deke being spared in this episode made no real sense, and only happened because he's apparently under Plot Protection. He's done nothing interesting. His Sob Story was seen a mile away, which is why you had fans pointing out he'd use some Sob Story excuse as early as the first episode of this season. We lost two characters of color this season and yet we still have this sorry excuse of a Reverse Ward, and he adds nothing interesting to the show.

Seeing how Deke has worked for Kasius and has presumably done other terrible things for him, I'm not seeing why I should care about Deke or like Deke.

This to atmosphere and back.. Deke is just sooooo ugh... But as much as I love this show I've been pissed since they killed Tripp and forced boring ass hunter on us.. Up until the episode he just popped in I never once liked his character as a viewer or understood what was so great abt him in universe... So I've come to expect this show to keep around the handsome smart alec white guy as long as possible

[Terrafamilia]

See, I'm not all that upset with Deke in the first place. First, he's grown up in a culture where life is cheap, people tend to look out for themselves (remember the "renewal"?) and have been trained to go along to get along so as not to make things even worse, so to insist that he should express all the moral sentiments we in modern day western civilization tend to take for granted is naive, however understandable. Second, a bunch of strangers show up and start demanding this and that and seem eager to upset the apple cart and kick the bear even after they are told they need to tread softly. Then Daisy charges off like a dumbass with no plan whatsoever which will without a doubt lead to a massive retaliation. No wonder Deke dropped a dime on her! At least some of the blame for that has to be shouldered on Daisy's own stupid self.

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

See, I'm not all that upset with Deke in the first place. First, he's grown up in a culture where life is cheap, people tend to look out for themselves (remember the "renewal"?) and have been trained to go along to get along so as not to make things even worse, so to insist that he should express all the moral sentiments we in modern day western civilization tend to take for granted is naive, however understandable. Second, a bunch of strangers show up and start demanding this and that and seem eager to upset the apple cart and kick the bear even after they are told they need to tread softly. Then Daisy charges off like a dumbass with no plan whatsoever which will without a doubt lead to a massive retaliation. No wonder Deke dropped a dime on her! At least some of the blame for that has to be shouldered on Daisy's own stupid self.

I'm not blaming deke for any of his actions.. He makes sense in universe.. What I and I think sime other posters are saying is... Given all that he is and what he has done (whether it makes sense or not he gave up Daisy which in turn out the rest of the team in danger)  why deal with him anymore he added nothing to the trip down to earth besides an extra body.. Now if they wrote it as the team took him because leaving him would/could interfere with their plans OK.. But it's been written like they're all good with him and that to me us annoying.. I'm sure they'll have him do some heroic to redeem himself but for now I think I woulda preferred he just stayed in the lighthouse or just be a scumbag.. Cuz I'm sure had he not heard the tape if his dad he woulda turned on Coulson as well

[Terrafamilia]

He does have that useful antigrav belt-buckle but I suppose the crew could have just rolled him and taken it for themselves if they really wanted to. :-)

[Mellowyellow]

FitzSimmons kiss!!!!! Squeeeeeeeeee

LOVED May taking over as Robin's mum. I am so glad we get to see that side of her and the best thing is it didn't come out of nowhere. It's one of those things where the seeds were sown (back in previous season her angst over the little girl she had to kill) but I didn't expect to see more of it play out on screen. This is why I love this show. Also made sense that she was the only person who didn't fear Robin's powers. May is not afraid of death at all. So believable and in character that she would be so zen about it. 

So much angst though this ep!!!! The Yoyo scene where she's already lost Mack, Fitz losing it over Simmons death. Did I mention that I love this show????!!!!!!!

[tennisgurl]

Now the shows REAL OTP has been reunited...Mack and his ShotgunAxe! The love is real! 

So happy that Yoyo got a chance to show her skills! She and Mack are a kickass team, even though it seems to end very badly in another timeline. Maybe they can double date with FittzSimmons when all this gets handled? Or else we can have more ANGST! I admit, I did enjoy the alternate timeline angst. Then maybe everyone can finally get a damn vacation! Perhaps Aruba? 

Robins powers really suck. No wonder she has trouble talking to people, she sees multiple time periods AND timelines. Talk about a never ending headache. At least she had May. May had all of those issues with having to kill that young Inhuman girl, helping another young Inhuman girl was probably really good for her. 

Was that a ring Fitz was wearing in the possible future? 

I am not 100% sold on Deke, but I can see why the gang is keeping him around. He knows how things work here, better than they do, and thats pretty helpful. I think, if we get some solid redemption and remorse from him, I could like him alright. What he did was awful, but he is clearly a product of his society, so maybe I can get over it if the characters can. Maybe. 

[MisterGlass]

20 hours ago, Pallid Man said:

I missed the first 20 minutes, was it explained then how the two different timelines are working? I was pretty confused, but the one Robin was seeing (Fitz building time machine, Robin daughter to May, etc), is that a "what would happen if they were never sucked into the future" timeline or a "their current selves get sent back again" timeline? 

It's still a bit fuzzy.  I think Robin may have lived out at least two versions of the timeline.  The original world destroying incident may be the fault of an external force.  They lived through it,  Robin got them to develop time travel, and used it to start another cycle.  The flashbacks in this episode are what happened when they went back and failed.  In one of the flashbacks I think Fitz talked about having tried to change the past before, and that Daisy had seen what would happen and destroyed the world anyway.  Yo-yo, battle axe at the ready, knew what the Kree were planning when they came to the rescue.  This time, Robin has some new information that she gave May and it gives them a chance.  Robin can keep the loop going because in the past she is getting feedback from the future, and can adjust.

I'm betting the Kree did something to destroy the world if it wasn't Thanos.

Edited January 21, 2018 by MisterGlass
Trying to add clarity, but really time travel needs a flow chart.

[MadyGirl1987]

21 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Of course Flint is important to the plan, his power is rocks and they happen to need a lot more of a particular kind of rock.

Robin's power reminded me of how the heptapods perceived time in Arrival.

 

12 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Im kinda concerned about Flint. He can control rocks. The Earth is one massive rock. I’m starting to think maybe the simplest explanation is what happened, Flint destroys the Earth, not Daisy. Im assuming like everyone else, Flint puts the Monolith back together and they bring him with bc there’s no way YoYo and Mack can leave behind another child. Something happens, and Flint snaps. Mack and Daisy try to stop him.

 

I liked the idea that Robin screwed with the timeline. She’s the reason why they were snatched out of the dinner. Maybe her power isnt seeing the past and future, maybe its that she disrupts timelines. Powers that are needed rather than random? If time is fixed, they needed something to disrupt it.

 

11 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Flint could be the reason why Earth doesn't get destroyed due to his power. Despite the heavy-handed implications from various characters that Daisy is responsible, the more logical explanation for the scene we saw would be that she failed to stop the actual reason behind the Earth's destruction. Flint's power could make all the difference.

As soon as May asked who Flint was I was like, “Of course it’s him!” It just makes too much sense.

Am i the only one who has a suspicion Flint could be a descendent of Mack and Yo-yo? It seems like more than a coincidence that one of the only non-white humans we see in the lighthouse is spending so much time and getting so close to the shows only non-white couple.

[MissLucas]

Show's going 12 Monkeys - with Robin as a mild-mannered version of Jennifer Goines. Open loop - closed loop, I guess we'll all be in demand of some of Janeway's headache medication before this is over.

[Raja]

13 hours ago, paigow said:

May & Robin = Ripley & Newt

However unlike Ripley, or Mac with Hope,  May does not remember becoming a mama. If you believe it is better to love and lose it than never have loved before then it sucks for May.

[Lokiberry]

Let me see if I've got this straight in my head: Robin's memories haven't happened yet to May and the others. They happen after they get back from the future. Then Daisy, Flint, Black Bolt (hey, there had to be some reason for that dumbass show), or persons unknown blow the earth apart. May, Yo-Yo, FitzSimmons and Robin escape to the Lighthouse. Mac is dead, and Coulson is unknown. FitzSimmons design the time machine which they've already had a chance to look at. Eventually, they all die and Robin grows old. Before any of this happens however, Robin has told Enoch to grab the team, minus Fitz, and send them all into the future via the monolith; with Fitz to take the long way around.

It's a time loop, that's what Flashback May meant when she told Robin they never really had to say goodbye. Robin dies in May's arms, but when she returns to the past, she finds her again and becomes her adopted mother. May dies at some point in the Lighthouse, but Robin knows she'll see her again when May is brought forward in time and the loop keeps going around and around. In fact, I think this is a Causal Loop. According to Wikipedia:  A causal loop, in the context of time travel or the causal structure of spacetime, is a sequence of events (actions, information, objects, people) in which an event is among the causes of another event, which in turn is among the causes of the first-mentioned event. If Enoch had not sent the team into the future, none of the events would have happened that Robin foresaw that caused her to tell Enoch to send the team into the future. If that makes sense.

The question is how to break out of the loop. Is the world destroyed because of someone or something they bring back from the future, like Flint or the implant making Daisy's powers go haywire? If that's the case, then they somehow need to stop Enoch from kidnapping them from the diner. If the threat is unrelated to the time travel (like Hydra has a world-cracking bomb or something) then they need to stop that, but if they do then none of the events that lead up to that point happen, only they did and that's a paradox. Paradoxes make my head all hurty. I think we'll need a special guest appearance by the Doctor to sort this Timey-Wimey business out.

[MisterGlass]

It is a bit wibbly-wobbly.

[Lobsel Vith]

8 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

See, I'm not all that upset with Deke in the first place. First, he's grown up in a culture where life is cheap, people tend to look out for themselves (remember the "renewal"?) and have been trained to go along to get along so as not to make things even worse, so to insist that he should express all the moral sentiments we in modern day western civilization tend to take for granted is naive, however understandable.

We've already seen characters like Tess and Ben show empathy for others, so let's not excuse Deke's behavior as if everyone at the Lighthouse as to become like Deke.

8 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

Second, a bunch of strangers show up and start demanding this and that and seem eager to upset the apple cart and kick the bear even after they are told they need to tread softly. 

Considering they came out of the Framework mere hours ago and are adjusting to having two distinct memories, that's hardly surprising that being thrown into the future would put them out of the loop. And since Deke was only helping at first because Tess offered to pay him twice what Virgil offered, I'm not sure why you think Deke deserves sympathy.

8 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

Then Daisy charges off like a dumbass with no plan whatsoever which will without a doubt lead to a massive retaliation.

Daisy tried to rescue Jemma, and tried to be covert at first, until she was discovered by the Kree - you know, exactly what Fitz did, and for which hardly anyone criticized him for despite him having no real plan at all and taking unnecessary, huge risks (like speaking to Jemma about wanting to get married at a party full of people who can easily overhear what he says, and which nearly happened).

8 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

No wonder Deke dropped a dime on her!

You mean Deke sold her into slavery. And Deke also admitted to working for Kasius, so it's not the only thing he's done for him.

8 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

At least some of the blame for that has to be shouldered on Daisy's own stupid self.

No, you can blame Deke's actions entirely on Deke because he's a grown ass man who is responsible for his own actions. I'm not blaming anyone but Deke for selling Daisy into slavery, and I'm not pretending that the people of the Lighthouse can only turn out like Deke when Tess and Ben prove otherwise.

[Jack Kerouac]

On 1/20/2018 at 2:26 AM, Jediknight said:

I still think it ties into Infinity War and Thanos.  Daisy herself would not be able to do that damage without an Infinity Stone.  If she could do that much damage by herself, there would be nothing left of Sinara.

It's not Thanos. Thanks is too expensive and at least some of the audience will have never seen the movie. I'm betting its the gravitonium.

13 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

See, I'm not all that upset with Deke in the first place. First, he's grown up in a culture where life is cheap, people tend to look out for themselves (remember the "renewal"?) and have been trained to go along to get along so as not to make things even worse, so to insist that he should express all the moral sentiments we in modern day western civilization tend to take for granted is naive, however understandable. Second, a bunch of strangers show up and start demanding this and that and seem eager to upset the apple cart and kick the bear even after they are told they need to tread softly. Then Daisy charges off like a dumbass with no plan whatsoever which will without a doubt lead to a massive retaliation. No wonder Deke dropped a dime on her! At least some of the blame for that has to be shouldered on Daisy's own stupid self.

Thank you. Daisy is a moron. Going off like an idiot to try and save Jenna even though Deke told her the Kree would straight up murder people in retaliation. What exactly was her plan? Quake a bunch of people and go run and hide? What an idiot.

If my friends and family were in that station, I would have turned her in too.

At least Fitz had an escape plan, a spaceship, a stash of weapons for the team and a Sentient Chronicon from Signus. Daisy even seemed to realize her plan was stupid when Deke pointed it out to her last episode.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Jack Kerouac

[blueray]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:46 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Robin's power reminded me of how the heptapods perceived time in Arrival.

Me too. That is really sad because most likely spent 80 or so years knowing that she was going to be killed as an old woman by someone betraying her. And she grew up knowing this was "the day it all ended" I wasn't surprised by this as I instantly called her words met she was going to die.

 

I generally do well with time travel stories but I found this a bit confusing. Was Robin experiencing what will happen to the characters when they go back in time or another timeline. It seems like it was the first one based on May and Robins conversation when she was a kid. If she told "May' how to save them it would be pointless as it already happened and her past self is the one that needs to know. So when elderly robin tells her as instructed May now knows. Which creates a time loop.

[Enigma X]

Not a fan of this episode because I hate time travel and alternate timeline stories.

[Lobsel Vith]

9 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Thank you. Daisy is a moron. Going off like an idiot to try and save Jenna even though Deke told her the Kree would straight up murder people in retaliation.

So Daisy is a moron because she didn't trust Deke, despite the show building up how she didn't trust Deke after her response to his mercenary attitude towards the team, her revulsion at the Framework, and her response to his contradictory comments about destroying the world? I don't get this. Deke was the only person telling Daisy to not try and save Jemma, and it was already established at this point that she didn't trust him - and for good reason. Deke's actions also lead to Kasius deciding to wipe out the entire Lighthouse, and it was only due to Enoch and Fitz that this didn't happen.

9 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

What exactly was her plan? Quake a bunch of people and go run and hide? What an idiot.

Her plan was to save Jemma from a position where she could have been abused or harmed, and since Kasius make a death threat if Abby failed the fight, that was a real possibility. It was a stroke of luck that Abby managed to tap into her power and win the fight.

9 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

At least Fitz had an escape plan, a spaceship, a stash of weapons for the team and a Sentient Chronicon from Signus.

No - Enoch had a plan. Fitz also kept veering from the plan despite Enoch's warnings - like when he refused the protocol suggestion and when he tried to speak with Jemma despite everyone around them. Enoch also had to tell Fitz they simply couldn't shoot their way out of there, which is what Fitz - the Stark-level genius of the show - suggested as an escape plan.

9 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Daisy even seemed to realize her plan was stupid when Deke pointed it out to her last episode.

No, Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons seemed like they wanted to kill Deke for selling her into slavery, and that seems to have been dropped because he's the new generic white guy who we're supposed to like because he has a Sob Story that people predicted he'd tell Daisy after the first episode of this season aired. We also saw how little Deke actually cared about the people of the Lighthouse because it was Flint, not Deke, who kept harping on about what might happen to the people living there.

[Gothish520]

On 1/20/2018 at 3:25 PM, Terrafamilia said:

See, I'm not all that upset with Deke in the first place. First, he's grown up in a culture where life is cheap, people tend to look out for themselves (remember the "renewal"?) and have been trained to go along to get along so as not to make things even worse, so to insist that he should express all the moral sentiments we in modern day western civilization tend to take for granted is naive, however understandable. Second, a bunch of strangers show up and start demanding this and that and seem eager to upset the apple cart and kick the bear even after they are told they need to tread softly. Then Daisy charges off like a dumbass with no plan whatsoever which will without a doubt lead to a massive retaliation. No wonder Deke dropped a dime on her! At least some of the blame for that has to be shouldered on Daisy's own stupid self.

Yup, 100%. 

Deke is a survivor. Different people have different baggage. He's a gray-area character. And I don't believe everyone has forgiven him - Daisy still looks at him like he just stepped in poop and tracked it into the house. But they have bigger fish to fry now, and if Deke has any knowledge or skill or bit of information that can help them, then he may be useful.

[MisterGlass]

15 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

I'm betting its the gravitonium.

Interesting thought.  I assumed the gravitonium was eventually going to destroy the lighthouse and didn't think of it being behind Earth's destruction.

[moonshine71]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:11 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

 

The whole timeline thing where they were trying to kill Daisy to "prevent" her from destroying the world, doesn't work for me. What did he think would happen? He would stab her to death on the zephyr in the future, and then the timeline would readjust like and inflatable raft? Presto, a brand new planet?I don't think that is how these things work. 

 

"How these things work"? Time travel doesn't exist, there is no way of knowing how "these things work", just competing speculation and various theories. Tons of fiction has been created on the premise of "rewriting" history through time travel, as well as the idea of multiple, concurrent timelines. Neither is more valid than the other. 

The one thing that seems to be ignored by the "kill daisy" plotters is that if their plan does work as they hope, none of them will ever be born. They all appear to have been born after the world destruction, the odds that their conception would still occur as it did without that event are non-existent.

[Jack Kerouac]

20 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

So Daisy is a moron because she didn't trust Deke, despite the show building up how she didn't trust Deke after her response to his mercenary attitude towards the team, her revulsion at the Framework, and her response to his contradictory comments about destroying the world? I don't get this. Deke was the only person telling Daisy to not try and save Jemma, and it was already established at this point that she didn't trust him - and for good reason. Deke's actions also lead to Kasius deciding to wipe out the entire Lighthouse, and it was only due to Enoch and Fitz that this didn't happen.

Daisy had already seen how the Lighthouse works. Anyone with half a brain knows to not go charging off into a situation without at least SOME kind of plan. Daisy's plan seemed to be: go and rescue Jemma and beat up anyone who stood in her way. Nevermind that the retaliation would kill other people - screw that - saving my friend is more important than anyone else's life - children included. Deke warned her again and again that her actions would have terrible consequences and she just didn't listen. And Deke didn't tell Daisy to not save Jemma; he told her to take the LONG view and have a plan. Daisy has shown time and time again that she is impulsive, dangerously so.

20 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Her plan was to save Jemma from a position where she could have been abused or harmed, and since Kasius make a death threat if Abby failed the fight, that was a real possibility. It was a stroke of luck that Abby managed to tap into her power and win the fight.No - Enoch had a plan. Fitz also kept veering from the plan despite Enoch's warnings - like when he refused the protocol suggestion and when he tried to speak with Jemma despite everyone around them. Enoch also had to tell Fitz they simply couldn't shoot their way out of there, which is what Fitz - the Stark-level genius of the show - suggested as an escape plan.

Yes, Fitz did talk about veering from the plan, but his listened to Enoch in the end. Hence - Fitz is smart and Daisy, not so much. Even if Daisy had managed to get upstairs and attempt to rescue Jemma, it was obvious she would have been caught. Bottom line; she went off half-cocked and Deke felt the only thing he could do was have her captured and make a buck and later attempt a rescue. Whether he was doing so for altruistic reasons makes no difference in how dumb Daisy's 'plan' was.

20 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

No, Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons seemed like they wanted to kill Deke for selling her into slavery, and that seems to have been dropped because he's the new generic white guy who we're supposed to like because he has a Sob Story that people predicted he'd tell Daisy after the first episode of this season aired. We also saw how little Deke actually cared about the people of the Lighthouse because it was Flint, not Deke, who kept harping on about what might happen to the people living there.

I disagree on that scene. It seemed pretty obvious that Daisy was chagrined that Deke called her out on her 'plan.' Fitz and Jemma - sure as they don't know the whole story. And Deke has done nothing BUT tell the S.H.I.E.L.D. gang that they need to lay low and stop making waves, as there will be fatal consequences for making a splash. For good or bad (ultimately probably for good), the gang decided to ignore this advice and people have died because of it.

Daisy is just another example of how running off without thinking can get people killed. Just as Yo-Yo's actions directly resulted in Tessa being murdered.

[teenj12]

On 1/20/2018 at 1:49 PM, Lobsel Vith said:

Considering that Fitz and Simmons were surprised about being locked in the room, Coulson and May were surprised when they saw a group had locked Fitz and Simmons in a room, and Daisy was ambushed (which required her to use her training from May to survive), are you suggesting that Deke selling Daisy into slavery was redeemed because Deke confronted Voss about his suspicions regarding the monolith fragment? Because that makes absolutely no sense.

So far, there's no reason for Deke to be on the team. Deke wasn't necessary for flying the spaceship, so it made no sense for the team to bring him with them. There's no reason for anyone to instantly forgive Deke for selling Daisy into slavery, particularly Daisy herself. Even Deke being spared in this episode made no real sense, and only happened because he's apparently under Plot Protection. He's done nothing interesting. His Sob Story was seen a mile away, which is why you had fans pointing out he'd use some Sob Story excuse as early as the first episode of this season. We lost two characters of color this season and yet we still have this sorry excuse of a Reverse Ward, and he adds nothing interesting to the show.

Seeing how Deke has worked for Kasius and has presumably done other terrible things for him, I'm not seeing why I should care about Deke or like Deke.

I would of preferred if the show kept Tess instead of Deke. She was so much more interesting. And like Deke, she was also wary, apprehensive, and outspoken about the team causing trouble at the Lighthouse, but she never sold anyone into slavery like Deke did. Deke's just an awful person, but this will continue to be handwaved by both show and fandom because he's the new "hot" and troubled white guy. 

[jhlipton]

47 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

I would of preferred if the show kept Tess instead of Deke. She was so much more interesting. And like Deke, she was also wary, apprehensive, and outspoken about the team causing trouble at the Lighthouse, but she never sold anyone into slavery like Deke did

Yes, this (as the kids say).

[frenchtoast]

Something that stuck out to me in this episode was how the scene of Robin dying was mirrored by the scene of May comforting Robin. It was an incredibly touching scene and I loved May in those flashbacks (or whatever they would be called) trying to hold the team together. And how that echoed Coulson saying that she always has his back, and I'm guessing it's not just in the kicking ass department. And I loved how it shown and not told. 

Also, Turtleman and Yo Yo. Love those two. Love. Of course Fitz and Simmons, but Mack and Yo Yo just get the job done and take care of others and are just awesome. Love them.

[Jack Kerouac]

2 hours ago, teenj12 said:

I would of preferred if the show kept Tess instead of Deke. She was so much more interesting. And like Deke, she was also wary, apprehensive, and outspoken about the team causing trouble at the Lighthouse, but she never sold anyone into slavery like Deke did. Deke's just an awful person, but this will continue to be handwaved by both show and fandom because he's the new "hot" and troubled white guy. 

I would agree with this. The problem, I think, has been with this entire season so far. It's just been super slow and boring. Were there massive budget cuts or something that caused them all to be stuck in the Lighthouse?

[Lobsel Vith]

3 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Daisy had already seen how the Lighthouse works. Anyone with half a brain knows to not go charging off into a situation without at least SOME kind of plan. Daisy's plan seemed to be: go and rescue Jemma and beat up anyone who stood in her way.

Daisy was in Deke's Framework with Deke when people were forced to kill each other, so she actually didn't see how things worked. And since Jemma's life was on the line - as we saw during the episode - you can't even say that Daisy was wrong about Jemma's life being in danger. Had Abby lost the life, Jemma would have been killed. It's a stroke of luck that Jemma didn't die.

3 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Nevermind that the retaliation would kill other people - screw that - saving my friend is more important than anyone else's life - children included. 

You mean Daisy didn't trust Deke at this point. Let's not forget that Daisy had amble reason not to trust a word coming out of Deke's mouth at this point, as I already explained in my previous response to you. I'm also not going to pretend that Deke is some sort of altruistic hero when we all know better.

3 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Deke warned her again and again that her actions would have terrible consequences and she just didn't listen. And Deke didn't tell Daisy to not save Jemma; he told her to take the LONG view and have a plan. Daisy has shown time and time again that she is impulsive, dangerously so.

Ah, yes, Deke - who cared so much about the people of the Lighthouse that Flint, not Deke, continually expressed concern about the people of the Lighthouse being harmed by Kasius in the most recent episodes. Let's not romanticize Deke's decision to sell a person into slavery as if he's some sort of altruistic hero for doing so.

3 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Yes, Fitz did talk about veering from the plan, but his listened to Enoch in the end. Hence - Fitz is smart and Daisy, not so much.

Fitz's idea was to shoot their way out of there. Enoch had to explain that this plan simply wouldn't work. Fitz is also framed as an intellectual genius, and his plan was shooting their way out of a Kree-controlled installation. And Fitz, unlike Daisy, had reason to trust Enoch at this point.

4 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Even if Daisy had managed to get upstairs and attempt to rescue Jemma, it was obvious she would have been caught. Bottom line; she went off half-cocked and Deke felt the only thing he could do was have her captured and make a buck and later attempt a rescue. Whether he was doing so for altruistic reasons makes no difference in how dumb Daisy's 'plan' was.

Daisy was ambushed because Deke betrayed her to Kasius, the person he admitted to working for; if she still had access to her powers, she could have potentially killed Sinara and Kasius. The entire reason Kasius' brother activated the dampener on Daisy is because she's a dangerous opponent.

4 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

I disagree on that scene. It seemed pretty obvious that Daisy was chagrined that Deke called her out on her 'plan.'

I'm pretty sure Daisy was chagrined at being sold into slavery, not at Deke's weak excuses at justifying his actions because of the people he clearly cares little for or the Sob Story he invoked when Coulson and May discovered what he did.

4 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Fitz and Jemma - sure as they don't know the whole story.

They know Deke sold her into slavery, which is why they explicitly said they wanted to kill him in the second to last episode, until the Plot Armor around Deke had everyone handwave his actions in the last episode.

4 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

And Deke has done nothing BUT tell the S.H.I.E.L.D. gang that they need to lay low and stop making waves, as there will be fatal consequences for making a splash. For good or bad (ultimately probably for good), the gang decided to ignore this advice and people have died because of it.

You're forgetting that Tess agreed to pay Deke twice what Virgil originally offered in order for Deke to provide the minimal assistance that he was - let's not forget that.

4 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Daisy is just another example of how running off without thinking can get people killed. Just as Yo-Yo's actions directly resulted in Tessa being murdered.

Considering the bad things that happened because Deke sold someone into slavery (like Ben being murdered), I'm going to say that the point isn't to justify slavery, but to condemn the enslavement of another person.