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S02.E05 Go Pirates!: Stuck In The Middle With Veronica Mars

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Yeah.. I didn’t like Jackie all the time and also fair point I didn’t like our main girl Veronica all the time either. In fact a lot of the time during the show I didn’t like Veronica.

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1 hour ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah.. I didn’t like Jackie all the time and also fair point I didn’t like our main girl Veronica all the time either. In fact a lot of the time during the show I didn’t like Veronica.

I really loved that Veronica was so flawed...and people/characters could call her out on her bs..She was not a 'Mary sue' but not a cliche 'bad girl' either..She was flawed and sometimes she deserved to be put in her place. She was 'real' in this sense.

Edited by pau
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I think we did know Wallace's father died - there is an episode that I *think* is in season 1 where Veronica talks about having to go to the zoo with her dad and Wallace comments "See, I would love to go to the zoo with my dad, but he's dead, so..."

Also, I know I have said this before, but I hate Jackie on a visceral level. Even when she says things that are true, I automatically want to disagree just because she said them. Wallace's involvement with Jackie, and his attempting to defend her to Veronica, made me dislike him quite a bit, which was sad because I had really liked him prior to this. Re-watching season 2 is not nearly as enjoyable as season 1, mostly because she is in it, but also because it detracts from Wallace's character (both in terms of content and overall screentime, though I know that in real life there were other reasons for the reduced screentime).

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13 hours ago, secnarf said:

I think we did know Wallace's father died - there is an episode that I *think* is in season 1 where Veronica talks about having to go to the zoo with her dad and Wallace comments "See, I would love to go to the zoo with my dad, but he's dead, so..."

Also, I know I have said this before, but I hate Jackie on a visceral level. Even when she says things that are true, I automatically want to disagree just because she said them. Wallace's involvement with Jackie, and his attempting to defend her to Veronica, made me dislike him quite a bit, which was sad because I had really liked him prior to this. Re-watching season 2 is not nearly as enjoyable as season 1, mostly because she is in it, but also because it detracts from Wallace's character (both in terms of content and overall screentime, though I know that in real life there were other reasons for the reduced screentime).

Honestly, not a lot of feelings about jackie, but a couple of thoughts.

I thought it was obvious, fairly fast, that Jackie was living out a fairy tale. The way she turns the prom thing over in her mind, like a fantasy hard candy with an unusually bittersweet flavor, is telling. Takes the Porsche. She is burning all of her bridges behind her because she knows it won't last. The little bit of recognition you see between Jackie and Logan may even relate to this" both of them are covering up what they really are and are living at the end of their ropes. Like recognizes like.

Wallace's reaction to her, I think, is not unlike his reaction to Veronica. He is seeing something about Jackie that is under the façade she presents to Neptune High. When Jackie calls him on Veronica he explains to Jackie that he sees past Veronica's superficial actions as well. 

However, while Jackie shows to be self centered in her new image, Veronica's choice of the new person she wants to be is that of someone who wants to help others. Jackie showing Veronica up is in some ways to Veronica's credit. 

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Finally  listened to the podcast. 

Keith is acting just like Veronica acts . He's trying to act normal, have a normal relationship with Alicia, breakfast and sleepovers kept 'secret' from the kids and not letting veronica work at Mar's investigations, trying to become sheriff again, instead of working at MI himself. Something comes up. Instead of talking to Alicia directly he breaks into her house, gets information, runs background checks. He wants to know what is going on so he can be in control of the situation going in. Meanwhile he lets it distract him from the Sheriff's race, loses, and has to grovel to get the tape to the right place.  Meanwhile he really isn't giving Veronica a lot of support (granted she wasn't enthusiastic about daddy daughter time, when offered) or giving Alicia a lot of support in this trying time when her son has found out she is lying to him. There are a lot of parallels to their storylines. Is it okay behavior for one of them and not the other?

About Duncan continuing to be popular, he clearly responded with passive resistance to Lilly's and Celeste's controlling behaviors, but he seems to have been generally well liked. I'm guessing these are the people who would have, as Meg pointed out, also continued to accept Veronica if she had allowed it. He has friends.

Logan never seems to, except for the fab four and Dick, although everyone takes advantage of his lavish unsupervised parties and enjoys the gossip he engenders. 

So Duncan as homecoming king, makes a certain sense, and he is still rich and full of mystery. 

Edited by Affogato
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Good point @Affogato about Keith being more like Veronica that he wants to admit. He has the same controlling issue. 

For the Jackie plot of the episode I hated it. For a long time I had issues with Jackie because you don't know if you are supposed to root for her or if she is another Paris Hilton (but the actress can act) type. She is right when she complains to Wallace about Veronica. She is right that Veronica is mostly using him. But to Veronica defense, Jackie did act like an entitle b**** the first time they met, and cheated on Wallace during the beginning of their relationship. So I can understand why Veronica doesn't like her. But even if Veronica doesn't like her, she helped her no question ask (just because of Wallace). And Jackie is playing her and humiliating her in front of the whole school again. Why ?
In general I think that this episode is a good example for the main flaws of Veronica Mars: the not so good management of the secondary characters and their story. Veronica Mars was really good at tertiary characters that we meet once or 2 times per year in high school but I found that they did a bad job balancing the secondary ones. And often their characteristics change based on the story they are trying to make. Alicia is either a lovey-dovey woman or a yelling mess who is lying to her son. Jackie is either a queen B or the underdog that can match Veronica in wit. Wallace is the supporting friend or he complains that Veronica is using him. Mac is here or not at all...

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Logan was really popular at the beginning of the show, he even had a 'crew' and he was the chef..of course it was pretty superficial and because of his status but also because of his alpha/outgoing/funny personality..so once he was ostracized because accused of murder..moreover the murder of a young man from a minority..he became easily a big outcast.

Duncan on the other hand was always on the sidelines and popular because he was Logan Echolls's best-friend and because of his status/his family and in a way because of his personality of a 'nice guy' who doesn't make waves, who doesn't have much of a personality actually. On the second season, he was just the golden son of the famous victim's family..the Kanes kept their halo even more than before..unlike the Echolls so he stayed popular..pretty logic.

11 hours ago, FrenchCheese said:

Good point @Affogato about Keith being more like Veronica that he wants to admit. He has the same controlling issue. 

For the Jackie plot of the episode I hated it. For a long time I had issues with Jackie because you don't know if you are supposed to root for her or if she is another Paris Hilton (but the actress can act) type. She is right when she complains to Wallace about Veronica. She is right that Veronica is mostly using him. But to Veronica defense, Jackie did act like an entitle b**** the first time they met, and cheated on Wallace during the beginning of their relationship. So I can understand why Veronica doesn't like her. But even if Veronica doesn't like her, she helped her no question ask (just because of Wallace). And Jackie is playing her and humiliating her in front of the whole school again. Why ?
In general I think that this episode is a good example for the main flaws of Veronica Mars: the not so good management of the secondary characters and their story. Veronica Mars was really good at tertiary characters that we meet once or 2 times per year in high school but I found that they did a bad job balancing the secondary ones. And often their characteristics change based on the story they are trying to make. Alicia is either a lovey-dovey woman or a yelling mess who is lying to her son. Jackie is either a queen B or the underdog that can match Veronica in wit. Wallace is the supporting friend or he complains that Veronica is using him. Mac is here or not at all...

Well i agree that management of the secondary characters was often flawed..But on the other hand, it was a way for them, to try to give these characters some layers but often it came out not so smoothly or in a organic way..i don't think it was the goal obviously..but they were much more invested (sometimes too much for me) in Veronica, the title's character to the cost of these secondary characters's characterisation.

Edited by pau

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On 1/9/2018 at 10:46 AM, FrenchCheese said:

Good point @Affogato about Keith being more like Veronica that he wants to admit. He has the same controlling issue. 

 

I'm pretty sure Keith is aware he is like Veronica, I don't think he feels badly about it. I think they are similar in a lot of ways. They both are essentially lawful good but are quick to wear a grey hat when necessary. They both are quick to make grand, reckless self endangering gestures for someone else. They both are better at doing things for others than they are at doing things for themselves and when they try to do something in their shady skill set to benefit themselves it usually blows up in their face.  Both of them use work to avoid making decisions (or to make decisions in the background, while working--they are both practical thinkers). They both are loyal and loving, but not particularly nurturing. Veronica's relationship with Wallace (Weevil, Mac, Logan)  is similar to Keith's relationship with Veronica (He uses her hard and trades off favors, but he is also loyal and always has her back)and to keith's relationships with Cliff and Sacks and most people, really.  Both of them, in the first season, jump to conclusions too fast because of their emotional involvements (Keith and Jake/Veronica and Logan).

Honestly, the Veronica character was originally supposed to be teenaged boy 'Keith', according to Rob Thomas,  and I think that teenaged girl Veronica and Old Man Keith are basically the same character in the show, minus some differences of age and experience. I also think one of the interesting things about the characters is that often behavior from Keith is considered much more positive when he does it than it is when Veronica does the same thing. They are both the same guy!

Edited by Affogato
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I always thought Jackie was actually a pretty believable character: she wanted Wallace's attentions and saw that Veronica was her rival (non sexually, but certainly for his time). I could believe that Veronica would have exacted a similar retribution had the situations been reversed. It's not an admirable trait, but I don't think it's unbelievable.

Spoiler

Although it takes a lot to believe they will come round to jointly run a sting in a forthcoming episode playing on their supposed "enemy" status.

 Keith's "Fair Play at all Costs" stance makes me wonder how he ever got elected in the first place!

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Sarah and John (Sally and Joe, heh) - I've been racing through these, despite the fact that I've seen maybe four episodes of Veronica Mars ever. Confirmation that your audience does include weirdos who enjoy recaps (with witty commentary, naturally) as much or more than the shows being capped. I find at least one thing per episode weirdly relatable -- something in the plot or (more likely) something you say.

John, love it that you are into Delays. Definitely one of my big bands of the aughts, and damn it no one else seemed to know them. (Will confess that I discovered their first CD at a VIRGIN RECORDS OR HMS LISTENING KIOSK!)

On a less lovely note, I started having seizures three weeks ago and have ended up in the hospital twice, so that Duncan plot development was uncanny for me when it emerged. Wondering if it's been dropped entirely? My meds seem to be working, so fiiiine. But yeah, in a seizure you are completely out. Murder would be "challenging" given that walking and thinking aren't on.

As much as agree with most of your takes, Wallace is SO put-upon and uncharismatic, the annoying guy who willingly takes on shit he doesn't want to do, cultivating a growing shoulder chip, then blows.  (Try calmly saying no once in a while.) Also, dude is a pretty mediocre actor. Perhaps not "woody," but not far superior to a potted plant (sans bug). He was the primary reason I didn't make this must-see TV in the pre-streaming era.

Keep up the stellar work!

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