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S00.E154: Twice Upon a Time

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14 hours ago, Llywela said:

Modern writers never get the First Doctor right, and that makes me sad. They remember him only as an upright, irascible Edwardian gentleman, and forget that he was also a cuddly granddad who went around the universe adopting surrogate granddaughters. Heck, Polly would have handed him his backside if he'd suggested it was her job to clean the TARDIS, in the way Moffat made him do here - but he never would have said that, in his actual run!

I didn't see the original run so this is very interesting to me.  I wonder if they included that touch of sexism in the episode to foreshadow what the new, first-ever, female Doctor is going to encounter?  On the other hand that may have been a bit of meta, self-congratulatory writing as if to say "Look how far we've come -- now not only is the Doctor no longer sexist, we're not sexist either because we're bringing you a female Doctor!"

I very much enjoyed the episode.  I'm not going to lie -- I did have to watch most of the marathon leading up to it to to recollect where we were in the story.  RIP Master/Missy.  (Or will they?)  I'm rather sad about Nardol . . . and a bit confused.  Was he there in this episode as a memory like Bill?  If so, then he's dead, and he died on that big ship that is trapped at the event horizon of a black hole with CyberMan evolving at a super-fast pace (relative to his level in the ship). Is that really where we are leaving the story of Nardole?  If so, damn, that's cold.

I'm okay with the memory of Clara being restored -- mainly because at this point I've forgotten why he forgot her.  (Interestingly I recollect exactly why Donna had to forget him.)  I do think it opens the door for memories of Clara to be shown in future season or maybe even visits to her to occur in future episode, but I doubt if that is a door any of the new writers would walk through given what a polarizing figure she is to fans.  Someone help me -- isn't she frozen between one heartbeat and the next, forever at the point of death, traveling the world with Ashildr in a stolen Tardis that looks like a diner?  But why did he have to forget her?  And what is different now?

Farewell Peter Capaldi's Doctor.  And Bravo!  It was a great ride.

Edited by WatchrTina
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1 hour ago, hnygrl said:

The Tardis rejected the new Doctor. She didn't "wreck" the Tardis, the Tardis spit her out. Rejected her.

Hmmmm. That is an interesting interpretation.  We've seen the Tardis incarnate (in that wonderful episode Neil Gaimen wrote) and she manifested as a woman.  Is it possible that the Tardis is less gender-indifferent than the Roman soldiers we saw in the episode set in ancient Scotland?  That would be odd.  Then again, wasn't the Tardis unhappy with Clara a one point?  (At least I think it was Clara she kept messing with -- not letting her in the door.)  I always interpreted that as jealousy.  Could the Tardis possibly be "jealous" that the Doctor has manifested as a woman?

Edited by WatchrTina
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WHAT DID SHE (13) SAY BEFORE SHE PUSHED THE BUTTON AND ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE?

Maybe THAT is why the Tardis went all "Oh HELLLL no" on her? Cause the Tardis went UPSIDE DOWN to make sure she was out of there. What did she SAY? I didn't have captions on and it's gonna bug me till I can watch it again with captions. 

Anybody catch it?

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39 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm okay with the memory of Clara being restored -- mainly because at this point I've forgotten why he forgot her.  (Interestingly I recollect exactly why Donna had to forget him.)  I do think it opens the door for memories of Clara to be shown in future season or maybe even visits to her to occur in future episode, but I doubt if that is a door any of the new writers would walk through given what a polarizing figure she is to fans.  Someone help me -- isn't she frozen between one heartbeat and the next, forever at the point of death, traveling the world with Ashildr in a stolen Tardis that looks like a diner?  But why did he have to forget her?  And what is different now?

Farewell Peter Capaldi's Doctor.  And Bravo!  It was a great ride.

3

I think she had him forget her, so he wouldn't continue to try to restore her.  She made the argument that keeping her between one heartbeat and the next wasn't his choice to make for her.  He was too attached or something.   And he was going to take all of her memories, so she reversed it and gave him the patch.  

 

(I think)   

 

I didn't hate Clara the way some do.  So I was glad to see her, if only for a moment. 

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47 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

But why did he have to forget her?  And what is different now?

My understanding of it was that, together, they were too toxic. They became the destructive hybrid that everyone feared. One or the other of them had to forget the other. And Clara who had already argued that he didn't have the right to make her choices reversed the polarity, or something like that, on something, so in the end it became a 50-50 crapshoot as to who would remember and who would forget when activation occurred. 

(I think.)

Edited by rur

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10 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

WHAT DID SHE (13) SAY BEFORE SHE PUSHED THE BUTTON AND ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE?

Maybe THAT is why the Tardis went all "Oh HELLLL no" on her? Cause the Tardis went UPSIDE DOWN to make sure she was out of there. What did she SAY? I didn't have captions on and it's gonna bug me till I can watch it again with captions. 

Anybody catch it?

AV Club says she said, "Aw, brilliant!"

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It's gonna be interesting to see next year WHY the Tardis rejected her.

Maybe that's why in the adverts it appears the Tardis is too small/smaller than usual? It's a brand new one or something? I don't know...but it is intriguing.
I hope they wait a good long while before filming.

I'm just not ready for a lady doctor. Maybe by the time the first episode films I'll be over it. Or by the time it airs...

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Thinking about it, I reckon the timing was awful, in the sense that the TARDIS was going to go blooey regardless of whether the Doctor touched it. My fanon/head canon is that the Doctor's DNA is different with each incarnation, but he/she has a "base" that goes beyond the DNA. That would explain how we get multi-Doctor stories without spacetime collapsing and/or exploding. The last thing she saw was the console exploding while it was vanishing. I'm thinking that Twelve didn't regeneration-proof the TARDIS. I mean, Eleven-to-Twelve had no huge energy output . . . Matt Smith just "popped" into Peter Capaldi. I don't think the TARDIS would eject Thirteen for the gender change.

Also, while I expressed dismay that things could be altered between now and S11 by Chibnall and/or the BBC, I realize now that Thirteen might not be dead meat. Remember, while she might go into post-regeneration madness that has affected most of his/her transitions, she also has wiggle room to survive. Remember Ten growing a hand back against the Sycorax? Maybe she using leftover energy to slow her fall. If she's a fan of One Piece, maybe she uses Nico Robin's Cien Fleur Wing maneuver. I would find that fitting, because Robin is probably the closest to the Doctor in terms of the anime's main cast.

While I'm thinking . . . is this the first time the Doctor has been blonde since Colin Baker? The promo shot suggests she's not going to fiddle with her hair like some women like to do. I find that funny because Six looked like he had a perm.

ETA: You know what would have been funny? "R- . . . RORY?!?" "Hi. Good to see you." "Wait, you didn't know this me!" "Well, the Testimony knew that you 'saw' Amy the last time you changed, so they threw me in." Also, that would've been more hilarious given One's "Men can be nurses too!" bit.

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1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I didn't see the original run so this is very interesting to me.  I wonder if they included that touch of sexism in the episode to foreshadow what the new, first-ever, female Doctor is going to encounter?  On the other hand that may have been a bit of meta, self-congratulatory writing as if to say "Look how far we've come -- now not only is the Doctor no longer sexist, we're not sexist either because we're bringing you a female Doctor!"

I actually thought it would be used as a subconscious explanation for why Twelve regenerated into a female.  

I haven't quit Doctor Who awhile ago, couldn't stand Clara. I watched the River Song/Capaldi Christmas special and actually hoped we'd see River in this one as well. I just love that character and her relationship to The Doctor. 

Having never watched Bill before I was pleasantly surprised by how enjoyable she was, I might give her episodes a try. I might even come back to Doctor Who now that Moffat is gone, I just hate how insane he got with making each companion the most specialist special ever!

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53 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Maybe THAT is why the Tardis went all "Oh HELLLL no" on her? Cause the Tardis went UPSIDE DOWN to make sure she was out of there. What did she SAY? I didn't have captions on and it's gonna bug me till I can watch it again with captions. 

 

To me, the Tardis didn't as much rejected as eject her to safety - the Tardis was burning inside, we could see the flames engulfing the interior as 13 was falling. Tardis' manoeuvre saved the Doctor.

I'm bummed we need to wait so long for the series. I need my female Doctor. 

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Sat down this afternoon and watched The Tenth Planet, followed by a re-watch of this one - since the one leads into the other, after all! Seemed a good way of comparing the two First Doctors. The re-watch cemented my overall impression of this episode as fairly typical Moffat fare - some truly beautiful moments woven together by a load of nonsense dressed up as a plot. And while I love David Bradley, neither he nor the writing came close to capturing who the First Doctor actually was.

Surprised to see so many here convinced that the TARDIS actively rejected the new Doctor. I mean, it was badly damaged by the regeneration, span out of control because of that damage, and she fell out as a result. I don't see any need for conspiracy theories there.

4 hours ago, Fiero425 said:

Without even seeing or remembering some Classic Who, I'd bet The Doctor is responsible for the Tower Of Pisa leaning to this day! lol! ;-)

If he wasn't, he'll claim he was anyway!

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

I was sad that Danny didn't come back. He is stuck in a different version of Heaven, I guess. 

They couldn't bring Danny back to say goodbye because a) he was never a companion, and b) doing so would be a reminder of the fact that they already did this exact storyline only a couple of years ago and with Cybermen.

I mean, seriously. If Missy already went through time and space harvesting every single soul who ever lived at the moment of their death to turn into Cybermen, how exactly could the Testimony manage to achieve the exact same thing? There's a huge conflict right there, before even beginning to  consider the logistical impossibility of the concept in the first place...

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I didn't see the original run so this is very interesting to me.  I wonder if they included that touch of sexism in the episode to foreshadow what the new, first-ever, female Doctor is going to encounter?  On the other hand that may have been a bit of meta, self-congratulatory writing as if to say "Look how far we've come -- now not only is the Doctor no longer sexist, we're not sexist either because we're bringing you a female Doctor!"

The latter. Moffat was already on record before the episode ever aired patting himself on the back for writing 'gentle 1960s sexism' into the First Doctor's mouth specifically so that the Twelfth could refute it. He thinks it was a clever and funny idea which makes both him and his Doctor look good and is blind to what a huge disservice it does to a character he claims to love and respect.

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17 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Moffat was already on record before the episode ever aired patting himself on the back for writing 'gentle 1960s sexism' into the First Doctor's mouth specifically so that the Twelfth could refute it.

But, but, the first Doctor isn't from the 60s! He's from an entirely different world. Why would he be 1960s Earth sexist? Oye, Moffat is such a special little snowflake. 

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4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

But, but, the first Doctor isn't from the 60s! He's from an entirely different world. Why would he be 1960s Earth sexist? Oye, Moffat is such a special little snowflake. 

Eh.  I've had all night to puzzle it out, and have decided that he wrote it that way as "entertaining" for the number of non- (or new) Whovians, who only watch the Christmas specials.

So it was a clever little conflict for the non-fanbase crowd, and something to complain about (See: Niles & Frasier and their "perfect meal") for those what knew the First Doctor.

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6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

But, but, the first Doctor isn't from the 60s! He's from an entirely different world. Why would he be 1960s Earth sexist? Oye, Moffat is such a special little snowflake. 

EXACTLY! But the easiest and laziest way to make your own character look better is to make the character they are standing alongside look worse - and to be fair to Moffat, he isn't the first to use this tactic and probably won't be the last. But re-watching The Tenth Planet really made the mischaracterisation stand out - and it was so unnecessary, because there really was also some lovely stuff that gets dragged down by the bad. The First Doctor was paternalistic as heck, to be sure, but he wasn't sexist - his era was remarkably progressive, for its time. And he travelled with Barbara Wright, who drove through a bunch of Daleks in a truck - he knew damn well that women are not made of glass! Also, he really was not house proud about his TARDIS. He wouldn't have noticed a bit of dust any more than Polly or Ben would - the only person in his era who probably would notice and care about dust was Barbara herself, who'd have made a mental note to do something about it later and would have then been distracted by another adventure and never quite get around to it!

 

4 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Eh.  I've had all night to puzzle it out, and have decided that he wrote it that way as "entertaining" for the number of non- (or new) Whovians, who only watch the Christmas specials.

So it was a clever little conflict for the non-fanbase crowd, and something to complain about (See: Niles & Frasier and their "perfect meal") for those what knew the First Doctor.

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose - and I'm sure he probably was thinking of the majority of the audience, who wouldn't know or care about mischaracterisation of a long-ago character they've never seen. But he has gone on record as saying he did it deliberately to show how far the Doctor has come - i.e., so he could pat himself on the back for being so much more progressive than the writers of 50 years ago. Funny how some male writers like to prove they’re less sexist now by projecting sexist lines onto the past, while totally failing to notice the sexism in the show as it is during their own time.

Speaking as one who knows and loves the First Doctor, I didn't need 'something to complain about' in this re-creation of him. I needed it to be a respectful tribute to him, one based in who he actually was, rather than using him as a plot device to prop up another character.

But I'm sounding very disgruntled now - there was a lot I did enjoy about this episode, honest! I just wish it weren't so...well, frankly, so Moffat.

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4 minutes ago, Llywela said:

so he could pat himself on the back for being so much more progressive than the writers of 50 years ago.

Since, you know, 50 years have passed, I'd hope he's more progressive. But writing this shit shows just how not progressive he is, and not very clever either. 

I never saw more than a clip here and there of the original run of this show, so I don't actually know anything about the first Doctor, but I do know that he, like all doctors, is from Gallifrey, not earth, and certainly not from the 1960s. By writing to the time the original show aired, and not who the Doctor is, Moffatt showed how narrow his ideas truly are. Good riddance buddy. I hope the new guys universe view is a bit more broad.

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1 hour ago, Ariah said:

To me, the Tardis didn't as much rejected as eject her to safety - the Tardis was burning inside, we could see the flames engulfing the interior as 13 was falling. Tardis' manoeuvre saved the Doctor.

I like this interpretation better than "the Tardis spat her out like sour milk."  But even if the Tardis ejected her because it could sense an explosion coming, it didn't exactly "eject her to safety" what with the whole plummeting toward a planet from the troposphere.  Oh well, that's what cliff-hangers were made for.  GERONIMO!

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I honestly liked this a lot less than most people. Aside from what many have mentioned about the mischaracterization of the first Doctor, I was wondering why such everyday terms referring to modern-day technology needed to be explained to the first Doctor. Of course, in the original series they were not mentioned but the Doctor is a time traveler, and the “first” Doctor would have encountered those terms at some point, right? This peeve is something I have been saying since Ten’s regeneration (and I got misty eyed over that one): why is the regeneration written like a death. I get why the first Doctor would see it that way . As he said he was scared. But by 13, they know they are coming back (changed), but he is essentially the same person.

I have seen Doctors 1-7 after they were originally aired, but I do believe I have seen every regeneration episode. This whole “death” thing seems to be new. Am I wrong? And the collecting of memories plot…bleh!

What I did like was the characters and actors. If I forget that the whole Bill, Clara,  and Nardole being a collection of  memories  part and believe they were truly the real Bill and real Nardole, I could like that too.

(shrugs)

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4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

I haven't quit Doctor Who awhile ago, couldn't stand Clara. I watched the River Song/Capaldi Christmas special and actually hoped we'd see River in this one as well. I just love that character and her relationship to The Doctor. 

Having never watched Bill before I was pleasantly surprised by how enjoyable she was, I might give her episodes a try. I might even come back to Doctor Who now that Moffat is gone, I just hate how insane he got with making each companion the most specialist special ever!

I think this past year was really great. I didn't hate Clara as much as a lot of people, but the show greatly improved with the introduction of Bill and I find myself retroactively disliking Clara because we could have had more of the Doctor and Bill. You should give it a shot. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

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40 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I think this past year was really great. I didn't hate Clara as much as a lot of people, but the show greatly improved with the introduction of Bill and I find myself retroactively disliking Clara because we could have had more of the Doctor and Bill. You should give it a shot. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Bill was about as annoying as Clara; maybe even more so! There could be explosions going on with people dying around them and they're still "asking questions!" I prefer companions that do more than that; like Nyssa & Turlough of Classic Who, Harkness, Martha who was doctor, and of course Nardole! The others are more like damsels in distress that the Doctor has to rescue because they don't watch where they're going and fall into HOLES like Bill did in the "Empress Of Mars" episode last season! ;-)

Edited by Fiero425
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I admit, I was mixed on it though I think I'm warming to it more now.

-I really enjoyed David Bradley and his portrayal of The First Doctor.  Though I greatly disliked the string of sexist jokes that Moffat gave him.  It was like he was commenting on the era in which Doctor Who was created in as well as a commentary on the current climate.  I read an interview with Gatiss that confirmed he was going after 60s chauvinism.  Problem is, Hartnell's Doctor was PATERNALISTIC (look at how he makes Susan's decision for her in The Dalek Invasion of Earth) but didn't go around treating his younger female companions like it was their job to keep the TARDIS clean.  The Brig at times and Harry Sullivan even more could be chauvinist but this was a dumb decision on Moffat's part that didn't fit the First Doctor's character.  It could have been done more subtly as well.  "I see you don't have companions with you anymore.  This place is a mess" would have worked more.  I find it laughable that Moffat tried to portray himself as some great champion of women with how unbelievable bad and tone-deaf that he can be on this subject *cough*Sherlock!*cough*.

There's plenty of ways to have shown how rough around the edges the First Doctor was compared to the 12th Doctor (including one really out-of-character action in An Unearthly Child).  But all of a sudden making him a sexist jerk is not the route to go.  Coming from Gallifrey, the characterization doesn't make sense and as pointed out, he knew that women weren't fragile.  Barbara's time on the Tardis is proof of that.

-Capaldi and Bradley worked well off of each other, with 1 admitting to 12 that he was scared of regenerating.  I also liked 1's conversation with Not Bill about what he was running towards.

-Speaking of Not Bill, I really thought that was going to be Susan there.

-Mark Gatiss was fantastic and this part of the special was particularly strong.  Figured out easy months ago that he was a Lethbridge Stewart although I don't buy that he's the Brigadier's father as that would make the Brig him well into his 50s when he first met the Doctor.  Archibald was likely Alistair's father.

-Didn't expect the Christmas Armistice to save Archibald but I greatly approve of it.  Yes, it's yet another example of Moffat's complete inability to kill anyone and let it stick but it's Christmas and it was a chance for 12 to do one more good deed.

-I kind of like 12's last adventure being low-key but can't help but feel they could have done so much more, particularly with 1.

-The return of Rusty the Dalek felt very random.

-Some great recreations of the First Doctor era, like with the original Tardis.

-The Doctor's reunion with Not Bill and Not Nardole was a wonderful scene and emotional, as was describing his life as a battlefield.

-Knew Clara would show up once again though she manages to annoy even with a brief appearance.  Capaldi sold the hell out of that smile when he remembered although why he would smile when remembering his times with Clara is beyond me.  Those two brought out the very worst in each other.

-Disappointed in 12's speech at the end, which sounded like he was going through a roller deck of the Doctor's great hits (the score was epic though).  That being said, I like Peter Capaldi a great deal.  Moffat didn't serve him well but he always gave you everything that he had and was the best ambassador that Doctor Who could ever hope for.

-The regeneration into the 13th Doctor was really well done and left on a good cliffhanger.  Though I see I wasn't the only one that thought that Moffat basically managed to write a "women can't drive" joke literally one minute before The Doctor became a woman.  No doubt this is something he laughed about and found funny but would get pissy if ever questioned about it.

-Now, I'll stand by what I said that I think the Doctor should be a man like Wonder Woman should be a woman.  But perhaps this change is what Doctor Who needs...it opens up new possibilities without a doubt and I've been impressed with Jodie's work from what I've seen.  But the best thing of all is that Moffat is FINALLY done as the showrunner and after watching some of his decisions again last night, all I can say is GOOD RIDDANCE! 

Edited by benteen
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20 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

I thought Capaldi made an excellent Doctor who was ill-served by shit writing. Especially in his first season. 

This.  So much this.  I'm really going to miss Capaldi - but I resent that so much of his time as the Doctor was wasted with Clara, who stayed on WAY too long.   Loved Capaldi with Alex Kingston; hello sweetie still gets me every time.  Going to miss Bill and Nardole, too.  

All in all I thought this was a very good episode.  

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This episode was a bit of a let down for me after S10 finale two-parter, but there were still some lovely moments.  If 'World Enough and Time"/"The Doctor Falls" was a grand opera, "Twice Upon a Time" was like a lullaby--gentle and simple (and a little bit snoozy).  I liked how it turned out that there wasn't an evil plot that the Doctors had to thwart--the biggest obstacle the Doctors faced was their inability to let go (something a lot of people can identify with, myself included!).  I also loved seeing Bill and Nardole again and (surprisingly) didn't mind seeing Clara.  The imagery of the glass people didn't quite work (bad CGI), but the idea is powerful: that a person is a bunch of memories, and like glass, those memories can be fragile/delicate and sharp/painful.  I thought Twelve's final speech echoed his words in "Hell Bent" and "The Doctor Falls" a little too closely, but I suppose Twelve is now a bundle of memories, too, so we were maybe "reliving" his most painful moments with him (when he lost Clara and when he lost Missy/the Master).  Nevertheless, Capaldi delivered that last speech beautifully, especially his final line ("Doctor, I let you go").  I'll miss him terribly.  But I do look forward to seeing what S11/Doctor Thirteen brings.

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Isn't she technically Fourteen, not Thirteen? I wonder if the mentions of the War Doctor were meant to be their tribute to John Hurt.

The Valeyard was supposed to be between his twelfth and then-final thirteenth regeneration. Which has now passed, twice in fact. It's not really been acknowledged. It was significant enough an entire season of original Who revolved around it. But NuWho, no matter the showrunner, has ignored any continuity they just don't feel like dealing with.

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9 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Isn't she technically Fourteen, not Thirteen? I wonder if the mentions of the War Doctor were meant to be their tribute to John Hurt.

Fifteen, actually. In "The Time Of The Doctor," Eleven counted War Doctor and the human clone from the fourth season finale as incarnations, which made him Thirteen. Then he got regeneration energy from the Time Lords, reversed his aging, and turned into Twelve/Capaldi. Right now, Jodi is Thirteen . . . not because Beardy and Ten-Point-Five don't count, but that she's the thirteenth actor to take the lead. Less of a headache for me. Technically, the Doctor is now beyond twelve rengenerations . . . but c'mon, he/she was going to have to duck that sooner or later.

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I was kind of struggling with figuring out how exactly this was a Christmas story (except that there was a lot of snow) unless they were trying for a "ghost of Christmas past* thing with the memory people. Then we got to the Christmas Truce, and then it came together. Really nice way to achieve and happy ending and let 12 go out on a win. Not exactly a huge revelation, but it really hit me none the less, especially when we realized that he was a relative of Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart. The speech that the Doctor gave did a great job of speaking to the purpose of the Doctor. The universe is a sad, scary, unfair place, but there are people out there who try to do what they can, even if its just saving two guys on a battlefield. And one of those people is an alien in a flying police box. 

It didn't even really hit me until the end how sad I was to see Capaldi go. I think he was a great Doctor, who was stuck with crappy writing for way too long. I liked him alright before, but he never really shined for me until he met Bill. It seemed like when they gave him someone better to work off of and some more interesting and fun adventures, he really started to come into his own. I wish he had gotten at least one other season, but at least he got a good ending. I am also excited for the new Doctor, and to see what she brings. Does the Doctors speech about wanting to be alone mean she wont have a companion for awhile? 

Speaking of companions, it was nice seeing Bill and Nardol again, especially getting so much Bill. I will really miss her as well. Why oh why did we only get one season with Bill?! Also, while I grew tired of Clara (I liked her at first, but I got tired of her and her ridiculous levels of importance) I was glad to see her here. Despite everything, she did really mean a lot to him and to his story. 

The 1st Doctor was fun, even of the "old sexist guy" didn't really work for his character. I mean, even I know that, and I've never seen any of his episodes, just clips. I did like seeing 1 and 12 play off each other though, with 1 commenting on all of the changes to the Doctor and the Tardis, plus the shit that will go down. "Well they cut out all the jokes!" I also liked that the plan turned out to not actually be evil, and the Doctors total bafflement as to what to do with people who actually are NOT being evil and dont need to be stopped. The memory people reminded me a bit of the other future people who traveled through time to torture bad people before death. While these guys are preserving people right before death so their memories can live on. 

I swear for one minute, when the WWI Captain showed up after time stopped, my first thought was "damn it Barry, what did you do this time?". I swear, I watch WAY too much TV...

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Agree it's tough to say goodbye to Capaldi. And Bill. Love, love, love Bill.

The special was loaded with great gems. Some for me were:

“I don’t really know what to do when it’s not an evil plan.” Neither does Moffat.

“One imagines those words are attached to some actual meaning of some sort” Archie says what I think a lot of the time.

“Hello. You stupid old man.” Oh, it’s Clara. I couldn't stand her, but I’m kind of glad to see her here.

 “And don’t go forgetting me again, because quite frankly, that was offensive.“ And....we're back. Go away, Clara.

“When you’re already dying, you’re entitled to think your day couldn’t get any worse, but here you are. “ A great LOL moment, directed at Nardole. Who would’ve thought that I would miss Nardole so much?

“Now I’m all made of glass, not just my nipples.”  Could do without thinking of Nardole nipples, though. 

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13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Hmmmm. That is an interesting interpretation.  We've seen the Tardis incarnate (in that wonderful episode Neil Gaimen wrote) and she manifested as a woman.  Is it possible that the Tardis is less gender-indifferent than the Roman soldiers we saw in the episode set in ancient Scotland?  That would be odd.

From what I recall of "The Doctor's Wife," the TARDIS doesn't experience linear time like we do, or even the looping meta way the Time Lords do; to her past, present, and future are all one. She "already" knows the future incarnations of the Doctor and has their console room designs on file. I don't think something as mundane as different plumbing could change her feelings for the Doctor.

 

10 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I have seen Doctors 1-7 after they were originally aired, but I do believe I have seen every regeneration episode. This whole “death” thing seems to be new. Am I wrong? And the collecting of memories plot…bleh!

The Fourth Doctor's regeneration was treated in a pretty elegiac manner, but he'd just had a pretty rough time within the narrative, and Tom Baker's departure was the end of an era.

 

3 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

The Valeyard was supposed to be between his twelfth and then-final thirteenth regeneration. Which has now passed, twice in fact. It's not really been acknowledged. It was significant enough an entire season of original Who revolved around it. But NuWho, no matter the showrunner, has ignored any continuity they just don't feel like dealing with.

If I remember correctly the Valeyard was supposed to be sort of a virtual possible future Doctor come back to interact with the past, with ambitions to steal his seventh through thirteenth regenerations in order to make himself real. I guess he should have fallen between Ten and Eleven, but the Time War probably changed future events enough to make him a never-was rather than a could-have-been. And the timestream has been completely rebooted at least twice since then.

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With The Doctor and his regenerations, it's 13th Doctor, 14th face and 15th life (meaning 14 regenerations).  There's the 13 Doctors that we know, plus the War Doctor and 10 used a regeneration to regenerate into himself in one episode.

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8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It didn't even really hit me until the end how sad I was to see Capaldi go. I think he was a great Doctor, who was stuck with crappy writing for way too long. I liked him alright before, but he never really shined for me until he met Bill. It seemed like when they gave him someone better to work off of and some more interesting and fun adventures, he really started to come into his own.

This!!!! Though I knew I would be sad to see Capaldi go because I was excited the second they announced he would be the Doctor. He was stuck with not just crappy writing but the biggest know it all, pain in the ass companion of all time! (I assume, I never saw the very old seasons so maybe it is possible there is someone worse than Clara "I am everything" Oswald, but I doubt it). Once he got Bill, who was really what I always thought the companion should be, just an average, run of the mill Human, he really did shine. Capaldi has one of the greatest shit eating grins of all time so I love when that comes out.

I wish he and Pearl were sticking around for at least one episode under someone other than asshat Moffatt. I would love to have seen what they could do out from under his massive ego.

The character interactions and actors are the best thing about this Christmas special. That and using the Christmas Truce which is an amazing bit of history that should be brought to people's attention more often. So thank you show for that.

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Clara pretty much had to come back one last time. It's become a tradition in nuWho that the first face the Doctor sees after regeneration is the last face they see before regeneration. Ten saw Rose, Eleven saw Amy and Twelve saw Clara.

As for the TARDIS and the Doctor, watching the scene again I still can't quite tell whether the TARDIS was trying to get rid of the new Doctor or trying to evacuate her. It could go either way. Which is probably deliberate. Maybe the new showrunner plans to create a more adversarial relationship between the Doctor and the TARDIS. Or maybe she just didn't bother to warn her there was a problem and just threw her out because she figured a Time Lord would have a better chance surviving a fall than whatever was about to happen.

I guess we'll see. Eventually.

Edited by KirkB
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Loved it! I'm not terribly picky I just adore Dr. Who! Such a treat to come home yesterday and watch a NEW Dr. Who. 

Also just discovered The Sarah Jane Chronicles. Looking forward to watching more of those tonight!

In the last 2 Christmas's I have gotten:

A- Dr. Who Yahtzee Set

B-A Dr. Who miniature Tardis. Battery Operated

C- A Sonic Screwdriver

I was ready last night to see Who!!!

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18 hours ago, Enigma X said:

This peeve is something I have been saying since Ten’s regeneration (and I got misty eyed over that one): why is the regeneration written like a death.

You answered your own question -- it's because for the viewer, a regeneration IS like death.  We have to say goodbye to an actor we've come to love. The drama and emotion and spectacle of the regenerations are pure fan-service.  It's all so we can have a nice satisfying emotional reaction to the departure of the lead actor.

 

13 hours ago, benteen said:

The return of Rusty the Dalek felt very random.

Someone please help me.  Is Rusty from the original run?  I thought I'd seen every episode of New Who and I don't recall Rusty. 

 

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

Clara pretty much had to come back one last time. It's become a tradition in nuWho that the first face the Doctor sees after regeneration is the last face they see before regeneration. Ten saw Rose, Eleven saw Amy and Twelve saw Clara.

If I'm following what you said then the first face our new Doctor will see will be . . . Clara! 

Okay I'm fairly certain that's NOT what you meant (and technically I think the last face he saw was the first Doctor and before that was the group hug with NotBill and NotNardole) but oooooh, here's a thought that will make some people's heads explode.  Remember that scene where River falls out of a New York skyscraper and the Tardis is waiting below with its door open to catch her?  What if, in the first episode of the next season, Clara and Ashildr fly in with their tardis and catch Jodie Whittaker as she falls?  Some people would lose their minds.  It would be fun to watch.

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1 minute ago, WatchrTina said:

You answered your own question -- it's because for the viewer, a regeneration IS like death.  We have to say goodbye to an actor we've come to love. The drama and emotion and spectacle of the regenerations are pure fan-service.  It's all so we can have a nice satisfying emotional reaction to the departure of the lead actor.

I got all misty over 5s regeneration and even with him laid out on the floor, it was not written as a death scene. It worked for me as a fan saying goodbye to an actor with the realization that the character will live on. No. I think it is more that the modern writers are writing love notes to themselves in the sense that their version of the Doctor is truly THE Doctor!

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12 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

What if, in the first episode of the next season, Clara and Ashildr fly in with their tardis and catch Jodie Whittaker as she falls?  Some people would lose their minds.  It would be fun to watch.

I would change the channel and never look back.

 

7 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I think it is more that the modern writers are writing love notes to themselves in the sense that their version of the Doctor is truly THE Doctor!

That's the trouble with having fans of the show as showrunners. They are all just writing really well funded fanfiction.

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47 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

 

Someone please help me.  Is Rusty from the original run?  I thought I'd seen every episode of New Who and I don't recall Rusty. 

Rusty is from "Into the Dalek" which was Capaldi's second episode.

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1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

If I'm following what you said then the first face our new Doctor will see will be . . . Clara! 

Okay I'm fairly certain that's NOT what you meant (and technically I think the last face he saw was the first Doctor and before that was the group hug with NotBill and NotNardole)

I may have said it wrong.

The FIRST face the new Doctor sees is usually the LAST face they see. When 9 regenerated into 10 Rose was in the TARDIS with him and she became the person 10 saw right before he regenerated into 11. 11 crash landed in Amy's back yard and Amy was the first person he saw when he climbed out of the TARDIS, and it was Amy he saw when he regenerated into 12. Clara was in the TARDIS when 12 opened his eyes, and so she was the last face he saw before he regenerated into 13. 13 is falling the last time we see her, so she has yet to see anyone. Where she lands and who she meets first may be the person she reunites with when her time is up.

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1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

I got all misty over 5s regeneration and even with him laid out on the floor, it was not written as a death scene. It worked for me as a fan saying goodbye to an actor with the realization that the character will live on. No. I think it is more that the modern writers are writing love notes to themselves in the sense that their version of the Doctor is truly THE Doctor!

5's regeneration was pretty epic.

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2 hours ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Rusty is from "Into the Dalek" which was Capaldi's second episode.

Which is why it was so random.  Not my favorite episode of Capaldi's era and I don't think it added much to the canon/mythology, but that may be just me.  He definitely was a surprise. 

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On 12/26/2017 at 11:22 AM, WatchrTina said:

Was he there in this episode as a memory like Bill?  If so, then he's dead, and he died on that big ship that is trapped at the event horizon of a black hole with CyberMan evolving at a super-fast pace (relative to his level in the ship). Is that really where we are leaving the story of Nardole?  If so, damn, that's cold.

He was a memory like Bill, so yes that means he died. Everybody has to someday. The Testimony was from the year 5 billion, so who knows how long he was on that ship.

"What do you mean one?" such a simple, but powerful line.

Overall, I enjoyed the episode, especially after rewatching it refreshing my memory with some of the episodes that it referenced. I had forgotten that the Doctor turned Rusty against the rest of the Daleks and that he lost his memories of Clara. I'm hopeful about the new Doctor. "Attack the Block" is the only thing I've ever seen featuring Jodie Whittaker, so I'm a fairly blank slate in regards to her.

Can any German speakers out there translate what the Soldier said to the Captain? The only thing I caught was 'Bitte geh', 'please go'. So, I'm assuming he was saying essentially the same thing as the Captain.

Personal opinion, I would not be even a little bit sad if River Song is never seen or referenced ever again.

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Just now, ZoqFotPik said:

Can any German speakers out there translate what the Soldier said to the Captain? The only thing I caught was 'Bitte geh', 'please go'. So, I'm assuming he was saying essentially the same thing as the Captain.

My mum says he was saying 'I don't want to kill you', or words to that effect. So, yes.

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4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

That's the trouble with having fans of the show as showrunners. They are all just writing really well funded fanfiction.

This.

4 hours ago, KirkB said:

Clara was in the TARDIS when 12 opened his eyes, and so she was the last face he saw before he regenerated into 13. 13 is falling the last time we see her, so she has yet to see anyone. Where she lands and who she meets first may be the person she reunites with when her time is up.

From Radio Times article apparently Clara's appearance was the very last scene shot by Moffat.

Quote

 

Steven Moffat has explained exactly how he managed to get Coleman back in the BBC sci-fi series.

“I had to phone Jenna, who was incredibly busy on [ITV’s] Victoria,” Moffat said at a recent screening for the Christmas special. “INCREDIBLY busy. A ridiculous schedule. I mean she was well up for it, but it was complicated to arrange.”

To accommodate Coleman’s schedule, the long-rumoured cameo was shot separately to the rest of the special and inserted using special effects, with Coleman actually filming her scene after Peter Capaldi and the rest of the cast had already wrapped.

“Actually, the very very last thing I shot of Doctor Who was in fact Jenna’s bit,” Moffat said. “So many times have I killed that girl off, and she was right there in my last shot! It’s absolutely extraordinary. The unkillable Coleman!”

 

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Hate to break it to Moffatt, but the Clara cameo really wasn't worth all that effort. But good for him getting one last shot of his special little princess.

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5 hours ago, KirkB said:

I may have said it wrong.

The FIRST face the new Doctor sees is usually the LAST face they see. When 9 regenerated into 10 Rose was in the TARDIS with him and she became the person 10 saw right before he regenerated into 11. 11 crash landed in Amy's back yard and Amy was the first person he saw when he climbed out of the TARDIS, and it was Amy he saw when he regenerated into 12. Clara was in the TARDIS when 12 opened his eyes, and so she was the last face he saw before he regenerated into 13. 13 is falling the last time we see her, so she has yet to see anyone. Where she lands and who she meets first may be the person she reunites with when her time is up.

Technically, 13 saw herself first. I can't think of any other Doctor that looked at themselves in the mirror before looking at anyone else.

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On 12/26/2017 at 9:43 PM, benteen said:

-Speaking of Not Bill, I really thought that was going to be Susan there.

Yeah - Capaldi has said a couple of times that he feels the Doctor wants to see his Granddaughter again. I wasn’t disappointed that she didn’t appear in this episode - but it would’ve been nice, especially with 1 involved.

As for Clara, I actually enjoyed their dynamic so it was nice that she was there for him - however it was super obvious that her parts were shot separately. It would’ve been better if Peter and Jenna could have been on set together - it was always fun watching them play off each other.

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I thought it was mostly a great send off for Twelve and Peter Capaldi and David Bradley played off each other well, I still don't think we needed the First Doctor for this send off.

The sexism bits were horribly handled, didn't feel true at all. Not needed one bit.

Knew Bill wasn't really herself but I did like the inclusion along with the Clara, Nardole and Rusty cameos.

Murray Gold threw out his greatest hits as well.

The Captain being the Brigadier's father and the Christmas Armistace bits were nice.

I liked the regeneration scene and Thirteen's minute onscreen, 7/10

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35 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

I thought it was mostly a great send off for Twelve and Peter Capaldi and David Bradley played off each other well, I still don't think we needed the First Doctor for this send off.

I think the First Doctor was thrown in as a gift for Capaldi, because that was his Doctor as a child, and remains his favourite to this day.

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7 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I think the First Doctor was thrown in as a gift for Capaldi, because that was his Doctor as a child, and remains his favourite to this day.

Oh, I hope that is true because what a gift! I love Capaldi's love of the show and it must have been a dream come true to work with HIS Doctor. Usually I'm against that kind of stuff, like Ed Sheerhan showing up on Game of Thones because Maisy likes him. But Moffatt has turned this show into such a vanity project that it doesn't really matter.

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47 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I think the First Doctor was thrown in as a gift for Capaldi, because that was his Doctor as a child, and remains his favourite to this day.

Although Capaldi watched the show from its earliest days, the Third Doctor was actually his favorite.

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