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The Royals: All the People Who Unironically Wear Robes and Crowns

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11 hours ago, irisheyes said:

He better figure out a way to support himself (or hope for a large inheritance). Once Mummy is gone, he really will be persona non grata. Heck, Charles will probably kick him out of Royal Lodge just to be spiteful. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Prince of Wales wouldn't attempt to pull any and all stops with his lawyers,etc. to see how the Duke of York could somehow be rendered as plain old 'Mr. Andrew Windsor-Mountbatten' upon Her Majesty's demise.  Yes, the Duke of York likely has a large inheritance and trusts but I doubt he'd not wind up blowing through those in no time flat once Mummy's not around to bail him out. 

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Creeper Andrew has done some shady business deals as well. I think he and his biggest fan, Sarah Ferguson, have an $8million lawsuit pending against them. His trust fund isn't going to last long. 

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10 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Do they bring up Andrew? I hope they did and dragged him.

They did. They showed the picture of the accuser and him together with Ghilane Maxwell in the background and they showed clips from his disastrous interview.

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If the lawsuit against Andrew, and Fergie is for that chalet in Switzerland, I believe I read somewhere that the Queen bailed him out, and paid everything owed.   However, Andrew has denied the bail out by the Queen is happening.    Of course, there may be many other debts he has that I haven't heard about.   

I wonder if the ski chalet is worth the amount of the debt?  And if they can sell it for that. 

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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I am not able to cite my source, but I have read that Andrew and Fergie have pretty much always lived beyond their means.  They rely on their friends to foot the bill while out and Mummy makes up the difference.  You know that Andrew is totally that guy who goes out to a fancy restaurant with friends and always forgets his wallet.   I think Fergie would also hit up Her Majesty for extra funds to cover the girls' expenses when they were younger.  Because there was always enough money for Fergie, but not always for her daughters.  

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39 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

If the lawsuit against Andrew, and Fergie is for that chalet in Switzerland, I believe I read somewhere that the Queen bailed him out, and paid everything owed.   However, Andrew has died the bail out by the Queen is happening.    Of course, there may be many other debts he has that I haven't heard about.   

He says they are going to sell the Chalet to pay the debt. If the Queen was willing to pay it I imagine it would have happened before it became news. 

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Well, Fergie can hawk that juicer...

Hullo gulls...

(Gratuitous "The Windsors" on Netflix reference.)

 

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5 hours ago, Blergh said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Prince of Wales wouldn't attempt to pull any and all stops with his lawyers,etc. to see how the Duke of York could somehow be rendered as plain old 'Mr. Andrew Windsor-Mountbatten' upon Her Majesty's demise.  Yes, the Duke of York likely has a large inheritance and trusts but I doubt he'd not wind up blowing through those in no time flat once Mummy's not around to bail him out. 

I don't know if the PoW would go quite that far, but I don't see him indulging Andrew like their mother has, either. BTW, I think the name is Mountbatten-Windsor.  I remember watching a documentary about the House of Windsor which covered the surname thing. One author/historian (I can see his face but not remember his name) who knew Lord Louis Mountbatten, told this story. He said that shortly after that decree (or whatever it was) adopting the name Mountbatten-Windsor for certain of the Queen's descendants was issued, he visited Lord M at Lord M's home. The author interviewed him in his (Lord M's) study. He noted that Lord M was wearing a tie with a recurring pattern of what appeared to be the letter M, with an upside down letter M just below it, and asked if the "Ms" were for Mountbatten.

Lord M said, oh, no, this pattern is M and W, "for Mountbatten-Windsor," rather proudly. And gestured to the area rug there, which had that pattern woven into it "all over," according to the author. He was rather amused by Lord M's obvious enthusiasm and pride over this recognition of the Mountbatten name in the Royal family. 

Edited by Jeeves · Reason: Clarity. It helps.
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23 hours ago, irisheyes said:

He better figure out a way to support himself (or hope for a large inheritance). Once Mummy is gone, he really will be persona non grata. Heck, Charles will probably kick him out of Royal Lodge just to be spiteful. 

Andrew has Royal Lodge on a lease long enough that it will outlive both him and Charles, so Charles can't kick him out of it.

And as much as he deserves it, I wouldn't expect him to be financially cut off either.  If he's not getting regular influxes of cash from the Queen or Charles (he'll certainly get an inheritance when the Queen dies, but it seems like the Yorks like to live large so I wouldn't be surprised if he blows through it) then he's going to have to support himself some how, which would increase the risk that he would do more to embarrass the royal family through whatever shady money making schemes he comes up with. I think that at this point the BRF has been through enough of that with Sarah Ferguson and the Michael Kents that they know they have to keep him financially comfortable if they also want to keep him out of sight and quiet.

It's too bad the Britannia was decommissioned.  Maybe they could have just sent him out to live the rest of his days in the middle of the ocean.

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8 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

You know that Andrew is totally that guy who goes out to a fancy restaurant with friends and always forgets his wallet. 

I think Andrew's the guy who goes out to a fancy restaurant with friends and doesn't bother to bring his wallet on the assumption that his companions should be so honored to have his company that it goes without saying that they'll treat him.

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4 minutes ago, Steph J said:

And as much as he deserves it, I wouldn't expect him to be financially cut off either.  If he's not getting regular influxes of cash from the Queen or Charles (he'll certainly get an inheritance when the Queen dies, but it seems like the Yorks like to live large so I wouldn't be surprised if he blows through it) then he's going to have to support himself some how, which would increase the risk that he would do more to embarrass the royal family through whatever shady money making schemes he comes up with. I think that at this point the BRF has been through enough of that with Sarah Ferguson and the Michael Kents that they know they have to keep him financially comfortable if they also want to keep him out of sight and quiet.

I think your right that the others will decide he is more of a liability trying to support himself. If his parents are smart they will leave his inheritance tied up in strings forcing him to stay in line otherwise he will sponge off his siblings and children or make bad decisions. 
 

Although I wouldn’t be surprised if he has money hidden somewhere. After all while spend your own money when your surrounded by people willing to support you. Users use even when they don’t need to. 

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8 hours ago, Dani said:

I think your right that the others will decide he is more of a liability trying to support himself. If his parents are smart they will leave his inheritance tied up in strings forcing him to stay in line otherwise he will sponge off his siblings and children or make bad decisions. 
 

Although I wouldn’t be surprised if he has money hidden somewhere. After all while spend your own money when your surrounded by people willing to support you. Users use even when they don’t need to. 

The Duke of Windsor got an allowance.   Which the Duchess got after his death.    It's not so much that he would be liability, members of the Royal Family, even disgraced ones do not live in poverty.    Appearances must be kept.   If Charles cuts off Andrew without a shilling, everyone would complain about how tacky it is for the King's brother to have to .... work.    Charles might WANT to.   He might keep the funds low enough that Andrew can't go gallivanting around the world causing problems, that he has to live quietly in the country, but enough that he isn't counting how many pieces of coal he can put in the grate in the winter.   

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9 hours ago, Dani said:

I think your right that the others will decide he is more of a liability trying to support himself. If his parents are smart they will leave his inheritance tied up in strings forcing him to stay in line otherwise he will sponge off his siblings and children or make bad decisions. 

Although I wouldn’t be surprised if he has money hidden somewhere. After all while spend your own money when your surrounded by people willing to support you. Users use even when they don’t need to. 

I'm not so sure that Andrew has much wealth of his own. The big moneyspinners for the BRF are vast assets that are either the property of, or exist for the benefit of, the Queen and the PoW. HM has some valuable personally owned assets and Prince Charles has apparently been hands-on with managing the Duchy of Cornwall etc. which has made some money. I found an overview of the BRF finances here: https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/pf/where-queens-money-comes-from-uk-royal-wedding/index.html

I note that Andrew isn't noted for having generated wealth. At the time of that article (2018) it was noted he was working "full time" carrying out royal duties and thus being paid by the Queen out of funds available to or possessed by her.

I've read, I think in Tina Brown's The Diana Chronicles, that not only was the newlywed Fergie left alone and at loose ends while Andrew was off serving long stints elsewhere as a Naval officer, he basically had just his officer's salary coming in vs. the wealth at Charles' disposal that supported Diana's lifestyle. Fergie had champagne tastes and a yearning for fun, but by royal/celebrity standards she was on a beer budget. HM gave the couple that estate in Windsor Park as a wedding gift, but I doubt she was willing to underwrite some kind of Eurotrash jet set lifestyle for Fergie as well. Didn't Fergie come out of the divorce with a huge load of debt? She not only angered the BRF, her husband didn't have much by way of wealth that she could go after, and I assume that HM just zipped up her handbag and refused to play - or pay - in the divorce.

(Diana, OTOH, got a good lawyer who figured out how much money she would need post-divorce. Because her husband had the benefit of the Duchy of Cornwall and other assets - producing income for him even if he didn't personally own them - there was a big and deep pot of gold to be tapped. Which she did. Unlike poor Fergie who didn't have very good cards to play and whose husband didn't have much money anyway. And as much as HM loves her grandchildren, it was Diana's kids who were next in line after Charles for the Crown, not Fergie's.)

Nothing I've read suggests that Andrew has attempted to manage any properties or do anything other than gigs like being a roving ambassador for Great Britain business, which IIRC didn't turn out well. He apparently demanded eye-wateringly lavish travel accommodations for his trips and behaved in a manner that did little to endear him (or his country) to those he dealt with. I think that debacle caused him to be called "Air Miles Andy." 

IMO he had a charming, outgoing personality in his youth and his prime years. Now he seems to be aging badly, and to have done more harm than good to the reputation of the family firm which supports his privileged and cosseted *ss.

ETA: I wouldn't be shocked if Andy's taken some discreet under the table payoffs ("gifts") from wealthy "friends" over the years and squirreled the money away somewhere. But I don't think it would be enough to support him in style for the rest of his life or anything like that. I'd be surprised, TBH, if he'd saved any of that hypothetical money at all, given his track record.

Further ETA: I'd bet that HM either has already set up a trust for Andy's benefit, or will leave him some kind of inheritance that will keep him for life. I also doubt that Charles would try to break the Royal Lodge lease and toss Andrew out. If only out of fear of what mischief a homeless roving Andrew could get into. "Retired" or not, Andy's a member of the BRF, a prince all his life, and whatever he does affects The Firm's reputation. If I were Charles I'd prefer to keep him in the tent, as it were, in a comfortable enough life so he'd be more likely to settle down and STFU and quit making messes for his family to deal with.

Edited by Jeeves · Reason: more thoughts
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I know the talk in this thread is mostly about British royals but I found this and decided to post it here:

 

 

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Did we look at these Satanic pants that Maxima is somehow pulling off?

Bell-bottom, cuffed, 70s print culottes. And she looks good.

And here she going full yellow and biking to an engagement.

 

If you need some purely gorgeous royals, may I present the gorgeous royals of Bhutan.

 

 

Edited by BlackberryJam
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I was never someone who kept up with the ins and outs of the royals. I would read stuff in magazines, then online later on and stuff on TV shows occasionally.  That being said I was a bit shocked to find out about the abandoned and eventually run down multi-million dollar mansion that Fergie & Andrew left behind after their divorce. It was completely leveled a few years ago.

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Did we look at these Satanic pants that Maxima is somehow pulling off?

That look is a no bueno from me.

The yellow outfit she is rocking, on the other hand.

Quote

If you need some purely gorgeous royals, may I present the gorgeous royals of Bhutan.

Queen Jetsun really is gorgeous.

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I don't mind the cropped wide-leg pants on tall, slender women such as she.  It is a trend that will be brief, I'm sure.  I can't do it because though I'm tall, my width comes closer to my height than I prefer, and it chops off any benefit of being tall. 😏

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25 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

And here she going full yellow and biking to an engagement.

Unfortunately she kinda blends into the wall there.    Did no one let her know the color of the wall first?   I mean this IS Maxima.

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3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Didn't Fergie come out of the divorce with a huge load of debt? She not only angered the BRF, her husband didn't have much by way of wealth that she could go after, and I assume that HM just zipped up her handbag and refused to play - or pay - in the divorce.

Fergie received a settlement.  The palace grew tired of her claiming she didn't and finally released the information.  But no, it was nowhere near what Diana received.  That being said Fergie later made money from her Budgie books and as spokesperson for Weight Watchers.  Unfortunately she went to the Tori Spelling Business School of Money Management.  To paraphrase what was said when Anderson Cooper's Vanderbilt grandfather died:  Fergie spends it all.  And more.   

Edited by MissAlmond
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On 5/28/2020 at 5:07 AM, Enero said:

I don’t understand why people are baffled about their move to LA. It’s Meghan’s hometown. She grew up there. Additionally her mother resides there, not to mention numerous friends and contacts. Despite the media, they no doubt have a strong support system there. 

I said the same thing a few pages back. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand about a couple moving to be closer to one spouse's family and support system. IMO, it's disingenuous. 

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8 hours ago, merylinkid said:

The Duke of Windsor got an allowance.   Which the Duchess got after his death.    It's not so much that he would be liability, members of the Royal Family, even disgraced ones do not live in poverty.    Appearances must be kept.   If Charles cuts off Andrew without a shilling, everyone would complain about how tacky it is for the King's brother to have to .... work.    Charles might WANT to.   He might keep the funds low enough that Andrew can't go gallivanting around the world causing problems, that he has to live quietly in the country, but enough that he isn't counting how many pieces of coal he can put in the grate in the winter.   

They aren't going to cut Andrew off. If he (or especially Fergie) doesn't have enough to fund the lifestyle he wants, he will start talking. Maybe he'll "write" a book, maybe he'll give interviews, or maybe even start making appearances at places, anything that pays him. They have to keep him muzzled.

 

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3 minutes ago, GaT said:

They aren't going to cut Andrew off. If he (or especially Fergie) doesn't have enough to fund the lifestyle he wants, he will start talking. Maybe he'll "write" a book, maybe he'll give interviews, or maybe even start making appearances at places, anything that pays him. They have to keep him muzzled.

 

I agree to a point.  Andrew and his dealings with Epstein went too far.  There is no tea he can spill that would be worth glossing over it.  He backed himself into a corner and lost whatever social capital he had.  No one is going to buy an Andrew tell-all.  He is going to become a cautionary tale.  There is no going back from this.  

Fergie OTOH will have to be paid to keep mum.  She would spill everything if given the chance, and I bet she would not turn down a spot on Strictly Come Dancing or other reality show.  Charles and William will have to keep her on a short leash.

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7 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I'm not so sure that Andrew has much wealth of his own. The big moneyspinners for the BRF are vast assets that are either the property of, or exist for the benefit of, the Queen and the PoW. HM has some valuable personally owned assets and Prince Charles has apparently been hands-on with managing the Duchy of Cornwall etc. which has made some money. I found an overview of the BRF finances here: https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/pf/where-queens-money-comes-from-uk-royal-wedding/index.html

 

Further ETA: I'd bet that HM either has already set up a trust for Andy's benefit, or will leave him some kind of inheritance that will keep him for life. I also doubt that Charles would try to break the Royal Lodge lease and toss Andrew out. If only out of fear of what mischief a homeless roving Andrew could get into. "Retired" or not, Andy's a member of the BRF, a prince all his life, and whatever he does affects The Firm's reputation. If I were Charles I'd prefer to keep him in the tent, as it were, in a comfortable enough life so he'd be more likely to settle down and STFU and quit making messes for his family to deal with.

Traditionally, British monarchs have always provided substantial funds to their children not in line to the throne to be disbursed after the ruler's death.  Andrew, Anne and Edward are undoubtedly all in the Queen's will and will not be starved for cash.  Interestingly, Charles may not receive anything from his mother's estate except perhaps a few personal mementos since he is getting the big enchilada- and is already a billionaire.  Edward and Anne are still working royals and probably will continue in those roles until they want to retire or until George is old enough to assume some duties and they get an income for that work separate from any personal funding from the Queen.  Andrew, of course, is never going to be a working royal again and I expect that the Queen, with assistance from Charles and her financial advisors, has already got a plan in place to make sure Andrew is compensated well enough to keep him quiet for the duration of his life.

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5 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Charles and William will have to keep her on a short leash.

I think that if they think either one of them is going to do something embarrassing, they are going to use Eugenie & Beatrice as coercion. They'll let them keep their HRH titles only as long as Andrew & Fergie behave.

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4 hours ago, PepSinger said:

I said the same thing a few pages back. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand about a couple moving to be closer to one spouse's family and support system. IMO, it's disingenuous. 

I understand, but.  Moving home is not odd, except when moving home seems to fly in the face of what you've said you want.

To use a personal example, my parents are farmers.  If I lived in suburbia, and made many statements about how far it is from everything, how quiet it is, how un-diverse, to the point that I said, "I've gotta get out of here!" and left?

And then moved back home to my parents' rural farming community?  I think that would be odd.  Especially when I could move to St. Louis, have a city life, and still be reasonably close to my parents' home.  There's LA, and there's LA.

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7 minutes ago, GaT said:

I think that if they think either one of them is going to do something embarrassing, they are going to use Eugenie & Beatrice as coercion. They'll let them keep their HRH titles only as long as Andrew & Fergie behave.

I think that is absolutely the case.  About the only positive thing one can say about Andrew and Fergie is that they do seem to love their daughters very much.  I think, over the years, Fergie has already been fairly effectively managed by the royal family with the knowledge that her girls would be marginalized if she stepped out of line.

Andrew has no choice, really.  He is not going to be making guest appearances on game shows because no one wants him.  He also cannot spill the tea on any royal family scandals unless he is willing to talk about his own relationship with Epstein and come clean about the fact that he assaulted teen girls.  He has no leverage with the family nor with the publishing world unless he admits to being the most despicable kind of criminal.  He can't and he won't.

After the Queen, who we all know loves Andrew, is gone; it is going to be up to Charles, who we all know DOESN'T love Andrew-or Fergie- to keep them quiet.  Andrew and Fergie aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, but they have to realize that things could get far worse for them after the Queen is gone should they misbehave.  They've both faced minimal consequences thus far; Charles isn't going to care if they're unhappy with their lot.

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He has no leverage with the family nor with the publishing world unless he admits to being the most despicable kind of criminal.  He can't and he won't.

Don't underestimate the appetite of the public for salacious scandalous tell-alls. Even if Andrew doesn't admit to any wrong doing, I'm sure there are many people who would still buy in his book.

Edited by Hiyo
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9 hours ago, Jane Tuesday said:

I understand, but.  Moving home is not odd, except when moving home seems to fly in the face of what you've said you want.

To use a personal example, my parents are farmers.  If I lived in suburbia, and made many statements about how far it is from everything, how quiet it is, how un-diverse, to the point that I said, "I've gotta get out of here!" and left?

And then moved back home to my parents' rural farming community?  I think that would be odd.  Especially when I could move to St. Louis, have a city life, and still be reasonably close to my parents' home.  There's LA, and there's LA.

I understand and agree to some extent but the whole thing is complicated by covid. It’s easy to imagine a scenario where they saw themselves be about cut off from both their families as borders closed and chose to move rapidly to be near her mom. Circumstances progressed very rapidly after they completed their last official duties. 

Despite what the press is saying no one really knows where they plan on being a year from now.

 

 

Edited by Dani
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H&M made it clear from the beginning that they were going to be focusing on some kind of foundation and charitable work. To do that, I imagine it helps to be located somewhere you can network/fund raise. Tap someone on the shoulder at a gathering and say "We could use your help with (fill in the blank)." Or ask for introductions to the richest person in the room.  L.A. seems as good a place as any to do that, with the bonus that it's her home.  

They sure could have used some better PR people though. 

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Meghan gave a commencement speech (remotely of course) for the graduating class of her former high school. And she naturally addressed the current racial situation in the country. 

Meghan is a very strong public speaker. She struck the right tone of addressing a difficult situation, not downplaying it but ending with a message of hope. 

https://www.essence.com/articles/meghan-markle-george-floyd-commencement-speech/

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4 hours ago, PepSinger said:

I'm so mad because you beat me to the punch, @truthaboutluv. LOL.

lol, sorry. 

Here's an edited version of the video from The Telegraph, for those who don't want to have to click the link. 

 

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Also, even though she is not a senior royal any longer, hearing someone of the British Royal Family saying, "Black Lives Matter" is just...WOW.

Imagine the impact of Harry saying it.

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8 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Well except for when what they said they wanted has gotten twisted and turned multiple times over to where what they actually didn't say has become accepted as fact. And then they are judged off of the spin of what they supposedly said versus what they actually said. 

Speak that truth!  People constantly judging Meghan and Harry for things tabloids, not them, said they wanted.  Stop getting it twisted.  Having paps take your picture on the streets of L.A. is nothing.  Having the papers/rota charged to cover your work the same ones who write lies to instigate hate towards you is everything.  

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3 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Imagine the impact of Harry saying it.

Why are Harry or Meghan always the ones?  Better to imagine the impact if The Head of the Commonwealth said it.  

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Because we were discussing Meghan's video?

I wouldn't expect it from someone like the Queen, but it would be cool if Harry or William or both did.

Edited by Hiyo
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1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

Imagine the impact of Harry saying it.

True! However, I seriously doubt that the Duchess of Sussex would have so openly voiced it without having the Duke's support  on this. 

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37 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Because we were discussing Meghan's video?

A video that was Meghan's commencement address to her, not Harry's, alma mater.  

40 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

I wouldn't expect it from someone like the Queen, but it would be cool if Harry or William or both did.

Again. Why can't the Head of the Commonwealth, a commonwealth made up mostly of black and brown people, do it?  Actually I do know, but will hold my tongue during this brief return.  

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A video that was Meghan's commencement address to her, not Harry's, alma mater.  

Good, he can still make one as well.

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Again. Why can't the Head of the Commonwealth, a commonwealth made up mostly of black and brown people, do it?  Actually I do know, but will hold my tongue during this brief return.  

Harry and William are more progressive and open-minded in their views, for one thing.

Edited by Hiyo
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The Prince's Trust tweet supporting BLM.

Max and WAx doing a commencement congratulations. Her hair is cracking me up. 

And I missed Felix of Lux's birthday.

Another man who is better with facial hair. 

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It sure seems the Prince of Wales (the UK's heir apparent ) is on board with what the Duchess of Sussex has voiced. Nice to know that he wants to do right even if he isn't totally happy with the Duke and Duchess's decision to put a continent between themselves and the UK. 

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As I said, during my brief return, I'll hold my tongue and simply say Brava, Meghan! 

But what's that Game of Thrones quote?  The North Remembers.  Yeah. That.   

Edited by MissAlmond
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1 hour ago, Blergh said:

It sure seems the Prince of Wales (the UK's heir apparent ) is on board with what the Duchess of Sussex has voiced. Nice to know that he wants to do right even if he isn't totally happy with the Duke and Duchess's decision to put a continent between themselves and the UK. 

I wish the Queen (as I would any person) a long, long life but sometimes change is generational.  Still, I hope Charles gets a chance to make his mark, as it seems his heart is in the right place. 

Meghan's video was both gentle and fierce. I don't know how she does that. 

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Just a link of Queen Jetsun looking gorgeous. 

I love the colors and patterns of her clothing.

Heads Together, the Kate, Wills and Harry mental health organization, supporting BLM.

 

Maxima at the grocery.

 

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4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

The Prince's Trust tweet supporting BLM.

Max and WAx doing a commencement congratulations. Her hair is cracking me up. 

And I missed Felix of Lux's birthday.

Another man who is better with facial hair. 

Felix looks like at least different people in different photos to me. 

17 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Just a link of Queen Jetsun looking gorgeous. 

I love the colors and patterns of her clothing.

Heads Together, the Kate, Wills and Harry mental health organization, supporting BLM.

 

Maxima at the grocery.

 

The sjot of Maxima in her white suit with a long white scarf walking down the cleaning aisle is a thing of beauty. 

Jetsun reminds me of Gemima Chan from some angles. 

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22 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The sjot of Maxima in her white suit with a long white scarf walking down the cleaning aisle is a thing of beauty. 

Jetsun reminds me of Gemima Chan from some angles. 

Maxima wearing white looking at cleaning products. I just loved the shot.

I think it's just Gemma Chan, but I thought that as well. They have similar jawlines/cheekbones. What I wouldn't give to have that bone structure.

 

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You're right, it's Gemma. I don't know why I lengthened it. 

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Giant Misfit

Don't get snippy in your responses with other members' opinions with which you do not agree.

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