S35.E13: The Survivor Devil

[NeverLate]

10 hours ago, ItsJessMe said:

I still like Ben, so maybe I just can't see it but it seems like the hatred of him from the tribe is so personal.  I mean, he and Devon were super tight,  and now Devon can't even talk to him without seething anger and dismissiveness.   I've watched each episode but I can't really understand that level of anger.  They were all gearing up to vote Ben off and he turned the tables.  That's gameplay.  I can understand Chrissy hating him because he was playing her, but why does Devon dislike him - not just isn't allied with him but actively dislike him - now?

Devon can't get rid of him..he's tried( sort of) he's an airhead imho.

[Daisy]

8 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I will say this, most of the people who hate Chrissy hate Ben as well and for the same reasons so it is a personality thing.

Yup. 
Like I said I don't hate Chrissy. I do think - there are a lot of aspects about her game I don't like. (her social game is c.r.a.p) and there are some times when Chrissy reacts/says something i'm like are you kidding me? and I think it really shows what an amazing social game can look like. And even then some of those had some flaws. 

if Chrissy won, I wouldn't be bothered by it (I think it would be a really good jury performance by her to swing votes to her side, quite frankly)

[ProfCrash]

Devon takes everything personal. Ryan told someone else about the idol o Devon cannot trust Ryan and is able to blindside Ryan. Then he talks about confidentiality and not willing to discuss the decision as if it is top secret information and Ryan does not have need to know.

Ben hears them talking about something in whispers and notes that they change the conversation once they know he is there. Ben works to stay in the game and Devon gets upset that Ben is trying to stay in the game. Now ben has betrayed Devon, never mind that Devon was discussing betraying Ben.

Ben calls Devon out at tribal and Devon gets butt hurt because he owes nothing to Ben.

I think Lauren and Mike might have been the only players to not take the game personally. Ashley was upset with Ben and targeted him because of how he was acting. Anyone who Devon perceives as betraying him is suddenly an evil person and gets the cold shoulder. Chrissy is continually defensive and in attack mode. Ben is defensive and has  his hackles up 24/7.

[cooksdelight]

27 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

Chrissy swears on her kids about something she is in fact lying about. That, to me, draws the moral line.

THAT makes me dislike her now. Seriously, that’s awful.

 

15 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

how amazing Ashley is. She might be back

In another season, I’m pretty sure she’d be asked back. 

[ProfCrash]

12 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Yup. 
Like I said I don't hate Chrissy. I do think - there are a lot of aspects about her game I don't like. (her social game is c.r.a.p) and there are some times when Chrissy reacts/says something i'm like are you kidding me? and I think it really shows what an amazing social game can look like. And even then some of those had some flaws. 

if Chrissy won, I wouldn't be bothered by it (I think it would be a really good jury performance by her to swing votes to her side, quite frankly)

I am not sure it requires a good jury performance. As much as the exit interviews have been anti-Chrissy, the people are also saying she played a good game. She has won individual immunity, she has controlled the votes, hell she has controlled the reward challenge. She might have a sucky social game but she came in as an underdog, Jeff called out her throwing up in the first challenge and she was almost the first person out of the game, built a solid alliance at the swap, navigated the big blindside that upset her game, and won individual immunity at least twice.

I don't think Devon, Mike or Ryan have a shot of winning if they are up against Ben or Chrissy. They have not done enough and I don't get the feeling that this is a bitter jury.

If Chrissy ends up in the final with Ben it is closer but I think she can win. She probably has JP's vote. I find it hard to believe that Ben is going to get a vote from Cole, Ashley, or Joe. There was far too much personal stuff between Cole/Joe and Ben. So Chrissy ends up with those three votes. That gives Chrissy four votes. Which leaves the last two people voted off and Lauren and Desi.

Lauren might vote for Ben, they were allies for ages and she does not take the game personally. Ryan is a Chrissy vote. Mike I have no clue. Devon I suspect would be a Chrissy vote because Ben has been calling Devon out and Devon thinks Ben betrayed them. I am not sure about Desi. She doesn't like Chrissy but she said Chrissy is playing well and noted that Ben and Ryan would not talk game with her either. She specifically called out Ryan for his poor social play.

Edited December 14, 2017 by ProfCrash

[Daisy]

3 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I am not sure it requires a good jury performance. As much as the exit interviews have been anti-Chrissy, the people are also saying she played a good game. She has won individual immunity, she has controlled the votes, hell she has controlled the reward challenge. She might have a sucky social game but she came in as an underdog, Jeff called out her throwing up in the first challenge and she was almost the first person out of the game, built a solid alliance at the swap, navigated the big blindside that upset her game, and won individual immunity at least twice.

I don't think Devon, Mike or Ryan have a shot of winning if they are up against Ben or Chrissy. They have not done enough and I don't get the feeling that this is a bitter jury.

If Chrissy ends up in the final with Ben it is closer but I think she can win. She probably has JP's vote. I find it hard to believe that Ben is going to get a vote from Cole, Ashley, or Joe. There was far too much personal stuff between Cole/Joe and Ben. So Chrissy ends up with those three votes. That gives Chrissy four votes. Which leaves the last two people voted off and Lauren and Desi.

Lauren might vote for Ben, they were allies for ages and she does not take the game personally. Ryan is a Chrissy vote. Mike I have no clue. Devon I suspect would be a Chrissy vote because Ben has been calling Devon out and Devon thinks Ben betrayed them. I am not sure about Desi. She doesn't like Chrissy but she said Chrissy is playing well and noted that Ben and Ryan would not talk game with her either. She specifically called out Ryan for his poor social play.

 

I always think a win needs a good jury performance (laugh). 
like her resume does stand for itself, but i think people have lost not doing well in front of the jury and people have won because they did well in the jury. 
I think if it's between Ben + Chrissy how they articulate their game (especially in the new jury format) will be really intriguing. 
 

 

(but i agree w/what you said)

[marys1000]

7 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 

I always think a win needs a good jury performance (laugh). 
like her resume does stand for itself, but i think people have lost not doing well in front of the jury and people have won because they did well in the jury. 
I think if it's between Ben + Chrissy how they articulate their game (especially in the new jury format) will be really intriguing. 
 

 

(but i agree w/what you said)

Yes and I think Chrissy is better spoken at making her case.  She is very articulate.  Add to that her ability to manipulate with words and she's the winner if she is f3.  Now honestly I think I would have said the same quite a long time ago so the questions remains.....why wasn't she voted out long ago?  Why isn't she being targeted instead of Ben?

Edited December 14, 2017 by marys1000

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

What about the amazing disappearance of Ryan?  In the early episodes he dominated this show, now it's like he barely speaks and defers to Chrissy.  Wondering if it has always been this way, because right now editing doesn't seem to indicate he wins.

He really has done a 180. I wonder if he is just too physically drained to think straight. The dude didn't have an ounce to spare at the start of the show. Now, with the lack of food and physical exertion, he may just be really out of it. Or Chrissy really put a spell on him. 

[plurie]

14 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Lauren might vote for Ben, they were allies for ages and she does not take the game personally.

Except that he was single-handedly responsible for her ouster, and was lying to everyone. She's the one woman that Chrissy DIDN'T target for elimination, so I can easily see her voting for Chrissy.

[Ellee]

3 minutes ago, plurie said:

Except that he was single-handedly responsible for her ouster, and was lying to everyone. She's the one woman that Chrissy DIDN'T target for elimination, so I can easily see her voting for Chrissy.

I think Lauren will be the only one that points out that her ouster relates directly to the Devon, Ashley Lauren conversation at the well when they decided that Ben was the next to go and Ben hearing it.  

[ProfCrash]

18 minutes ago, plurie said:

Except that he was single-handedly responsible for her ouster, and was lying to everyone. She's the one woman that Chrissy DIDN'T target for elimination, so I can easily see her voting for Chrissy.

But Lauren seemed to be ok with that. She didn't take it personally and turned it around. She was responsible for Ben getting all the other votes that night. Game respects game. Lauren also knows much of what Ben did in the game because they were allied and she fully planned on taking him out because she thought he would be hard to beat. I don't think she has a problem with his voting her out, I think she will respect that. I think she might have a problem with Ben telling everyone about her hidden advantage and the idol but I don't think she will hold that against him. If Ben makes the final three, he did so by being the target from the final 9 on. He single handily voted out his biggest competition in Lauren and disrupted the next tribal with his blatant idol play. He challenged Devon, Ashley and Mikes game play at last nights tribal for a reason.

Lauren could vote for Chrissy. I think she sees that Chrissy played a solid game but Chrissy screwed up not trying to talk to Lauren even when they were aligned. If Lauren is going to reward a gamer, I would imagine that she would award the one that she had a good relationship with and who was responsible for blindsiding her with good game play (a hidden immunity idol that actually remained  a freaking secret). I see her voting for Ben

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

It's the hat that makes me hate Ben.  

 

[kassandra8286]

27 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

If Lauren is going to reward a gamer, I would imagine that she would award the one that she had a good relationship with and who was responsible for blindsiding her with good game play (a hidden immunity idol that actually remained  a freaking secret). I see her voting for Ben

I agree. In Lauren's interviews, she says she's still friends with Ben and doesn't seem very kindly disposed towards Chrissy. People can say all they like how they will reward good game play and not let personal feelings get in the way, but I don't really believe it. I don't think someone who is disliked can win at FTC unless they're sitting next to others who are disliked more, or just sucked at the game so bad the jurors would consider it a personal insult if they won (like poor Woo, lol). I believe studies show that most people make decisions based on emotion first and then later rationalize it.

I don't know for sure if Ben can beat Chrissy, he may be hated by the jurors more than she is, but I do think he would have Lauren's vote. Probably Desi's and Joe's as well. I think him getting to FTC will be the hard part, he'll have to win the next two immunities.

[fishcakes]

I don't particularly like Ben, but he's now the one I dislike the least. It used to be Devon until all his posturing this episode against Ben, starting with the ridiculous, "you should have voted out me instead of Lauren because I'm going to make sure you don't win immunity." Yes, Devon, we're all very impressed with your zero individual challenge wins compared to Lauren's two wins, plus her HII and her second vote advantage. In terms of challenge threats, the order from most threatening to least was Lauren, followed by Chrissy and Ashley, and then Ben, Devon, Mike, and Ryan in a four-way tie for last. Then Devon's little hissyfit at TC and talking about what a liar Ben is was especially rich considering that some of those lies were Devon's idea and done for Devon's benefit. Similarly, I wasn't impressed with Ashley acting like Ben was such a backstabbing turncoat, considering it was her idea and her big mouth to vote him out and his overhearing is what caused him to go after Lauren. Also, Ashley, JP SAYS HI.

Still not seeing Chrissy as a strategic genius. She targeted Ashley saying that Ashley targeted her first, but all Ashley did was point out that Chrissy was the one who decided Ryan would be the third person at the reward, which was true, obvious to everyone, and a big so what. She said Ashley and Ben were "the same" to her in terms of who to vote out, so that shows that her decisions are based on who she doesn't like and/or is currently mad at and not for game reasons. Ben is a threat to win, but she wants him gone because he lied to her. Ashley is not a threat to win, but she wants her gone because Ashley, hmmm, what could be the reason? Whattttt could it be? Welp, it's a mystery I guess.

[Jextella]

9 hours ago, Nashville said:

Yes - but then Devon still has to write somebody’s name down.  Who would you suggest?  Because that person is going to see Devon’s vote as putting a target on their back, and respond accordingly.  If Devon knew (and he apparently did, or else he guessed VERY well) Ashley was the fallback nom after Ben, then Devon risked much and gained nothing by going against the flow.

Mike.  

[kimbrchick]

It was weird that Ben was so secretive about getting the idol without anyone noticing. Then he just plays it right when they get to tribal anyway. I guess he wanted to make a show of it. Like others here, I'm so irritated with those that whine about Ben looking for and finding an idol when they were just sitting around. Nothing is stopping you from either looking for yourself or making it harder for him to find it.

Chrissy continues to bug me.

I wish they would go back to final two instead of three.

[enoughcats]

I see Ben's hat as a subtle notice that the guy has brains and it trying to keep them from being fried in the intense sun near the equator.  He's been in that kind of heat before.  He probably has seen colleagues go down from heat stroke.  His hat tells me he knows some of the risks of that climate and he has a hat to protect his head.  

OT: I knew a professor who got chatty one night and talked about going bald.  What nobody told him was that bald is a lot more prone to skin cancer and he had seven scars on his head to show where his had been removed.  Memorable in a bad way.

[RedheadZombie]

I just want to know how in the hell Devon had his legs folded up at tribal.  They looked like muscle-wasted extremities of a polio survivor.  

[ljenkins782]

15 hours ago, Haleth said:

Good grief!  Why are they not voting out Chrissy???  Dammit!!!

Because she had immunity.

Quote

I was thinking World's Apart, but dang, they are looking pretty good right now compared to this group.  Even though they had Dan Foley.  But I'd take him and his arrogant sexist creepy beard over this group any day.

World's Apart had Dan Foley AND Will, so I don't think this group is down at those depths. But I'm not really loving anyone left either. 

Quote

Is Ben calling his conversation with Ashley trying to patch things over with her? Being condescending, acting like him talking to her is doing her a great favor? And if she doesn't go along with him she's just stupid for not jumping at the chance to work with him? That's the way to mend fences!! 

Yes, nothing says " let's smooth things over" like chuckling under your breath and saying "you make me laugh" in a condescending tone. Who wouldn't leap at the chance to work with someone who gives them a charming line like that? At the time, I enjoyed that Ashley gave him some shit for his approach, but then she got bounced out of the game, so maybe it wasn't the best move. 

Quote

All I can say is that I really wish Jeff had waited until after the votes were cast to confirm that it was a real idol. It doesn't seem fair for someone to declare themselves immune before the vote.

I didn't like that either, especially since he's apparently made a fake one before. Why not leave the suspense that it could have been a bluff. Especially since he showed it early, that would make me suspicious that it was a Tony Vlachos move to throw the votes off of him.

Quote

But Devon DID get Ben to play his immunity idol by calling him out and saying he thought Ben was bluffing and wouldn't play it.  Devon flushed the idol out of Ben's paws.

True. Ben may have hoped to hang onto it through the next vote by simply wearing it and seeing how spooked the others got. 

But he probably doesn't need to, I'm sure he'll return to camp to find a hand-drawn map leading him to an idol in his own bag or something. (I'm kidding, but it does get really tiresome when the same people are always finding a new idol.)

Quote

loving the season but hating the idols. It is getting ridiculous. I have to wonder why no one was following Ben whereever he went. That I don't understand.

I know editing plays a role in what we see, but it still appears that Ben had an awful lot of "me time" out there with only 6 people around. It's not like nobody would notice that he was gone. And someone (Dr Mike, I believe) even said out loud that they didn't feel the need to follow him around. Why???

And what happened to Ryan's enthusiasm for idol hunting? Is he just too worn down? He started the game full throttle and now just seems to riding along in the backseat. It's weird and makes it hard to root for him. 

Quote

So how the fuck did Ben get the idol from under the shelter with everybody there???  Did the crew just lay it on top of the sand and not bury it? If so, that is some bullshit,

The clue said it was attached to the underside of the shelter, not buried. So he just had to find a chance to get under there and grab it, which he could have done after everyone else had started walking toward tribal.

Quote

Upon returning to camp after tribal, did Mike really say of Ben's idol play, "that was almost as good as when I played my idol"?  Delusional.

Perhaps I'm being too charitable, but I thought he was joking. 

Devon doesn't do a whole lot for me, so I'm not really rooting for him either. I laughed mightily at his little chest-puffing moment: "I'm not going to let you win immunity" to Ben. Uh, spoiler alert, NEITHER of you have won immunity thus far. Maybe step aside and let Chrissy make that bold statement since she's won twice. 

[Irishsecra]

I am probably in the minority but I think mike has a great shot at winning. He is well liked by everyone, has betrayed no one, and is the last surviving healer. He has really never had a true alliance since the merge. No one can claim he was dragged along by a partner as he had no partner . He had to survive by his wits, the chaos he caused 2 tribal councils ago is still paying dividends. I just don’t think Ben or Chrissy will let him get there. I would love to hear him talk to the jury though.

i also like him as he and Lauren are the only ones who haven’t taken this personally.

ironically, early in the game he pushed for Chrissy and Ben to be voted off as the biggest threats in the game but was brushed off. Yet they are both there and the 2 biggest threats to win.

no one left has played a great social game . Ben, Chrissy may have good strategy but their social skills are bad.

and those with the better strategic games are not well liked.

[Charlesman]

16 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

 

God, Ben is so obnoxious. I can't stand him. And, out of all the people he could take out, he tries to get them to vote for...Mike? Because Mike has any chance in hell of winning this game? Moron.

 

I think Mike was the best choice for Ben to get out. Mike was the swing vote that the two groups of two needed to sway to their side. If Mike leaves, Ben takes that spot and lasts through the next elimination, too. Chrissy/Ryan and Devon/Ashley would be the split, and Ben could decide which 3-some he wanted to form.

 

Getting rid of Ashley is probably bad for Ben... because now Devon is a free-agent and can align with Chrissy/Ryan against Ben. If Mike had left, the pairs would have needed Ben's vote to break the tie.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Charlesman

[Lamb18]

3 hours ago, marys1000 said:

Quote from Desi in her interview: My take on Chrissy is she's good in this game because guys are dumb and fall for big boobs and teeth.

But doesn't Desi have those, too? Why didn't the guys fall for hers?

[Jextella]

25 minutes ago, Irishsecra said:

I am probably in the minority but I think mike has a great shot at winning. He is well liked by everyone, has betrayed no one, and is the last surviving healer. He has really never had a true alliance since the merge. No one can claim he was dragged along by a partner as he had no partner . He had to survive by his wits, the chaos he caused 2 tribal councils ago is still paying dividends. I just don’t think Ben or Chrissy will let him get there. I would love to hear him talk to the jury though.

i also like him as he and Lauren are the only ones who haven’t taken this personally.

ironically, early in the game he pushed for Chrissy and Ben to be voted off as the biggest threats in the game but was brushed off. Yet they are both there and the 2 biggest threats to win.

no one left has played a great social game . Ben, Chrissy may have good strategy but their social skills are bad.

and those with the better strategic games are not well liked.

Agreed.   

I think Ben alluded to the idea that Mike was a goat.  I don't agree with that.   Mike has tried at every turn but doors keep closing on him.  Maybe he's not great at the game, but he didn't kick back and do nothing.   Having said that, there is much to be said about perception in this game.  The old adage of "perception is reality" holds true.  People perceive Mike in a way that doesn't really align with his actions, IMO.   I don't think Mike would win against anyone other than Ryan.  Maybe Ben if the jury chooses to vote on an emotional level.

Devon screwed himself voting for Ashley.  I think that will come back to haunt him.  He should have voted for Mike - even if he knew it wouldn't mean anything.  

[Rachel RSL]

Wow. I really REALLY dislike Desi. She played a horrible game but she's throwing shade at Chrissy for playing a good game? She can stfu with that crap about Chrissy using her boobs and looks to get ahead. Have we seen anything from Chrissy that even remotely resembles a woman who is using her boobs to get ahead in the game? Sour grapes from a sore loser.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[Eolivet]

29 minutes ago, Irishsecra said:

ironically, early in the game he pushed for Chrissy and Ben to be voted off as the biggest threats in the game but was brushed off.

I have been saying to myself that Mike is either Bret or Adam from Millennials vs Gen X. (game-wise, not personality-wise). He's either the loud character who didn't really do anything and was sort of dragged along by an alliance who needed him as a number before he was bounced for having too many friends on the jury, or he's the scrappy underdog who clawed his way into an alliance, found a toehold and hid behind threats until everyone forgot that he really didn't make a lot of enemies because their focus was on his early blunders.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, kimbrchick said:

It was weird that Ben was so secretive about getting the idol without anyone noticing. Then he just plays it right when they get to tribal anyway. I guess he wanted to make a show of it. Like others here, I'm so irritated with those that whine about Ben looking for and finding an idol when they were just sitting around. Nothing is stopping you from either looking for yourself or making it harder for him to find it.

This drives me nuts as well, but I have to wonder if it's something wonky with the editing.  I get that there's only so much time in an episode, but at least show us short clips of others looking and failing to find the idol - otherwise the logical conclusion is the bolded line above...viewers assume no one else is even looking.  In a show that's been around this long, it just makes zero sense for anyone to sit around complaining that one person is "tearing the jungle apart" looking for an idol, while those same people that want to vote out that player sit around and do nothing about it.  Having just re-watched Game Changers, when Tony la-la-la'd himself into the jungle to search for an idol, Queen Sandra was all, "we gotta get up and follow him."  I have a hard time believing that Chrissy, Mike, Ryan, Devon and Ashley are all so collectively stupid that they let Ben scour the island for hours unchecked, and yet that is exactly what the editing suggest.  It bugs me.

And honestly, while I don't hate this season, I often find myself staring at the tv after TC thinking, "WTF just happened?!"  Why did Lauren leave her extra vote at camp?  Why is Chrissy so incessantly smug?  Why is Ben so determined to make everyone hate him?  What on earth is Mike's game (other than trying really hard to make himself a character)?  I have no clue who is going to win.  I don't hate these people, but I don't understand most of what they do or say, either.  It makes for a frustrating season, for sure.

Edited December 14, 2017 by laurakaye

[grinchyheart]

I really wish Jeff had said "This isn't the proper time to play an idol, you must wait until I ask just before votes are read. So thanks for giving it back to Production to re-hide, but it doesn't count & will not be available for this TC.`Now go vote, everybody!!"

[Lantern7]

5 minutes ago, grinchyheart said:

I really wish Jeff had said "This isn't the proper time to play an idol, you must wait until I ask just before votes are read. So thanks for giving it back to Production to re-hide, but it doesn't count & will not be available for this TC.`Now go vote, everybody!!"

The part where Ben asked Probst before giving him the idol got cut. I mean, if Probst said the idol would be effective before the vote and then told the tribe that he just lied? Probst would be dead. Reality television homicide.

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It's the hat that makes me hate Ben.  

@millennium: It helps me distinguish him. You can gather everybody from this season in a year, and I'd be, "Okay, I gotta talk to Ben. Where is he? [Ben puts on hat] HOLY GEEZ!!!! Where the hell did you come from?!? Do they teach ninja shit in the Marines?!?"

[watch2much]

16 hours ago, princelina said:

When I was in high school a friend's mom used the expression "Wipe that puss off your face" which we all found hilarious, and it's what I think of every time someone does something Chrissy doesn't like.  For someone who's so smug about her own gameplay, the sour grapes come out awfully quickly when other people manage something good for themselves.

YES! my thoughts exactly.  That's why I dislike her so much.  She's a spiteful person.  A true great player would appreciate other play. I didn't like Joe, but I'll give him credit for not taking things personally and giving kudos for good moves.  

If Chrissy isn't expounding on how brilliant and in control she is, she's sniping at the other people who have a moment in the sun.

[iMonrey]

It's a tough choice among the final five, because while I don't loathe any of them the way I've loathed some previous players, I'm not really rooting for any of them either. It boils down to who I'd be the least annoyed with as a winner.

I'd be the most annoyed if Ben won, because I can't shake the suspicion he's being helped by production in finding all these idols when he so obviously needs them, and fits the bill of the typical producer favorite. I just knew he was going to find another idol in this episode. I'm certain a cameraman or someone just casually led him there.

I'd be really annoyed if Mike won too because he's a moron who makes stupid moves and thinks he's a genius for making them.

That just leaves Chrissy, Ryan and Devon. I don't think Ryan or Devon have really done anything to deserve to win, so by default, I guess I'd be the least annoyed by Chrissy winning. She's won impressive challenges when she needed to. She's still not a great social game player but out of the five left I'd say she had the toughest path to the final three.

I'll be recording next week's two-hour finale and fast forwarding through most of it to catch the important parts, like I usually do.

[Irishsecra]

just read some of Ashley’s interviews. She said that what wasn’t shown on the show was that mike had been doing everything possible to turn Devon and Ashley against each other. That he was constantly working to split them up.

that he got Devon to stop trusting ashley which is why he voted her out.

she said mike was constantly playing and constantly talking to everyone. That everyone liked him.

it is just bizarre that CBS is giving him the doofus edit when so many are saying he was constantly trying to stay in the game.

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I don't particularly like Ben, but he's now the one I dislike the least. It used to be Devon until all his posturing this episode against Ben, starting with the ridiculous, "you should have voted out me instead of Lauren because I'm going to make sure you don't win immunity." Yes, Devon, we're all very impressed with your zero individual challenge wins compared to Lauren's two wins, plus her HII and her second vote advantage.

LOL, Last I checked, Devon was pulling up the rear in the IC last night. Not even Ryan! Devon! Ben was close to completion and the one made sure he didn't win was CHRISSY. Devon's arrogance seemed to just come out of nowhere and it's so unfounded. That's what drives me mad. 

Just now, Irishsecra said:

just read some of Ashley’s interviews. She said that what wasn’t shown on the show was that mike had been doing everything possible to turn Devon and Ashley against each other. That he was constantly working to split them up.

that he got Devon to stop trusting ashley which is why he voted her out.

she said mike was constantly playing and constantly talking to everyone. That everyone liked him.

it is just bizarre that CBS is giving him the doofus edit when so many are saying he was constantly trying to stay in the game.

That pisses me off. I need to see that stuff. Say he ends up in F3 with Chrissy and Ben and wins, because he's been playing in this way that we haven't seen AND everyone likes him. I would feel so befuddled. This show has GOT to get better with their editing. Viewers shouldn't be so confused. 

[Irishsecra]

Yeah the whole Mike edit is so damn bizarre. Lauren said he was such a good talker he could convince you of things which was not backed up by what we see in the show. Now we see mike is the reason Devon turned on Ashley and voted her out. Yet not a bit of this is on the show.

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

He asked Ashley, “Do you want to go back to camp with me tonight?” And he asked Devon the same thing, which brought out that glaring stare. He was trying to convince them both to vote for Mike, and be assured of being safe by aligning with him again. 

Uh-huh - and who did Ben ask first...?  ;)

 

5 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

HOW RUDE!!! (kidding)  I suppose it's possible I zoned out and missed a talking head where Ben explained his strategy to target Ashley. I remember him telling Ashley and Devon to vote for Mike. If he was targeting Ashley, why didn't he just tell everyone to vote for Ashley? They were already targeting her anyway, so it would have been an easy sell. I'll just take your word for it because I don't have it in me to sit through that episode again. 

Don’t feel bad, @Rachel RSL - you didn’t miss anything.  This is all supposition on my part.  :)

IMHO the big tell, though, that Ben was actually targeting Ashley and not Mike?  Ben didn’t vote to evict Mike - he VTE’d Ashley.  Kinda big indicator, that.  :>

 

14 hours ago, ItsJessMe said:

I still like Ben, so maybe I just can't see it but it seems like the hatred of him from the tribe is so personal.  I mean, he and Devon were super tight,  and now Devon can't even talk to him without seething anger and dismissiveness.   I've watched each episode but I can't really understand that level of anger.  They were all gearing up to vote Ben off and he turned the tables.  That's gameplay.  I can understand Chrissy hating him because he was playing her, but why does Devon dislike him - not just isn't allied with him but actively dislike him - now?

I still kinda like Devon - a little - but:

• Devon places high value on trustworthiness and takes it personally when he feels a trust has been portrayed - although Devon apparently has an innate ability to turn a blind eye to his own transgressions in that regard.
• Devon (and Ashley too, for that matter) is the functional definition of bad strategist in that (a) his “strategies” only work when his opponents acquiesce to responding in accordance with Devon’s wishes, and (b) Devin apparently gets all bent out of shape when they stubbornly refuse to do so.

Both of these factors come into play in Devon’s current attitude towards Ben.  Devon is angry with Ben for flipping on the Fearsome Foursome (Ashley/Ben/Devon/Lauren) - although Devon appears to have conveniently forgotten the reason Ben flipped was because Ben correctly figured out Ashley/Devon/Lauren’s blindside-Ben plan.  Devon is further enraged that Ben simply doesn’t curl up and die game-wise, leave quietly, and get out of the way of whatever GRAND SCHEME Devon has next in mind; Ben, however, stubbornly refuses to let himself be evicted.  Downright inconsiderate, that.  ;>

Simply put: Devon is frustrated as fuck, and he thinks it’s all Ben’s fault.

 

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

Mike.  

...after which Mike starts painting a new target on Devon’s back for voting against him.  As would Ryan.

Devon already knew from camp convos that Chrissy had short-term crosshairs on Ashley, and he knew Ryan and Mike knew so as well - so once Ben was eliminated as an eviction option, Ashley’s neck is next on the chopping block.  Devin doesn’t want to VTE Ashley, to be sure.  Casting a dissenting vote would separate Devon from the pack, though - and that’s not a good place to be, this close to the end.  At the very least it takes a degree of testicular fortitude I ain’t sure Devon’s got.

 

46 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

And honestly, while I don't hate this season, I often find myself staring at the tv after TC thinking, "WTF just happened?!"  Why did Lauren leave her extra vote at camp?  

According to Lauren’s post-game interviews,

Spoiler

Lauren didn’t - she had the extra vote in her pocket, and was lying when she said she didn’t.  

Which makes her non-play of it on somebody - ANYBODY - else at TC a total mystery.

[jay741982]

19 minutes ago, Irishsecra said:

just read some of Ashley’s interviews. She said that what wasn’t shown on the show was that mike had been doing everything possible to turn Devon and Ashley against each other. That he was constantly working to split them up.

that he got Devon to stop trusting ashley which is why he voted her out.

she said mike was constantly playing and constantly talking to everyone. That everyone liked him.

it is just bizarre that CBS is giving him the doofus edit when so many are saying he was constantly trying to stay in the game.

Wow Devon is really a moron why would he believe words coming from someone he wasn't aligned with and stab someone he was aligned with. Plus Devon is more of an idiot if he thinks he can beat Chrissy and Ryan

[Nashville]

4 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

Plus Devon is more of an idiot if he thinks he can beat Chrissy and Ryan

Ever see a Survivor contestant who DIDN’T have an inflated opinion of their own game?  ;)

[Ellee]

20 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Uh-huh - and who did Ben ask first...?  ;)

 

Don’t feel bad, @Rachel RSL - you didn’t miss anything.  This is all supposition on my part.  :)

IMHO the big tell, though, that Ben was actually targeting Ashley and not Mike?  Ben didn’t vote to evict Mike - he VTE’d Ashley.  Kinda big indicator, that.  :>

 

I still kinda like Devon - a little - but:

• Devon places high value on trustworthiness and takes it personally when he feels a trust has been portrayed - although Devon apparently has an innate ability to turn a blind eye to his own transgressions in that regard.
• Devon (and Ashley too, for that matter) is the functional definition of bad strategist in that (a) his “strategies” only work when his opponents acquiesce to responding in accordance with Devon’s wishes, and (b) Devin apparently gets all bent out of shape when they stubbornly refuse to do so.

Both of these factors come into play in Devon’s current attitude towards Ben.  Devon is angry with Ben for flipping on the Fearsome Foursome (Ashley/Ben/Devon/Lauren) - although Devon appears to have conveniently forgotten the reason Ben flipped was because Ben correctly figured out Ashley/Devon/Lauren’s blindside-Ben plan.  Devon is further enraged that Ben simply doesn’t curl up and die game-wise, leave quietly, and get out of the way of whatever GRAND SCHEME Devon has next in mind; Ben, however, stubbornly refuses to let himself be evicted.  Downright inconsiderate, that.  ;>

Simply put: Devon is frustrated as fuck, and he thinks it’s all Ben’s fault.

 

...after which Mike starts painting a new target on Devon’s back for voting against him.  As would Ryan.

Devon already knew from camp convos that Chrissy had short-term crosshairs on Ashley, and he knew Ryan and Mike knew so as well - so once Ben was eliminated as an eviction option, Ashley’s neck is next on the chopping block.  Devin doesn’t want to VTE Ashley, to be sure.  Casting a dissenting vote would separate Devon from the pack, though - and that’s not a good place to be, this close to the end.  At the very least it takes a degree of testicular fortitude I ain’t sure Devon’s got.

 

According to Lauren’s post-game interviews,

  Reveal hidden contents

Lauren didn’t - she had the extra vote in her pocket, and was lying when she said she didn’t.  

Which makes her non-play of it on somebody - ANYBODY - else at TC a total mystery.

Wasn’t one of the requirements to use that extra vote to cast it while the others were voting? So Lauren wouldn’t have known about Ben’s idol yet and would be thinking 100% of the votes would be against Ben and they were. 

[ljenkins782]

25 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Quote

Plus Devon is more of an idiot if he thinks he can beat Chrissy and Ryan

Ever see a Survivor contestant who DIDN’T have an inflated opinion of their own game?  ;)

To be fair, I think part of what looks like delusion to viewers is the fact that no one out there can see all the moves that others have made while on other tribes AND it's natural to see yourself as the center of the story because you're only seeing it from your point of view. So your moves get magnified in your mind and it's harder to see the story objectively. 

That said, I do think Devon is showing signs of overinflated ego beyond the typical "hero of my own story" tendency, so I can see him being utterly shocked if he loses to Chrissy. 

[Nashville]

6 minutes ago, Ellee said:

Wasn’t one of the requirements to use that extra vote to cast it while the others were voting? So Lauren wouldn’t have known about Ben’s idol yet and would be thinking 100% of the votes would be against Ben and they were. 

If Lauren knew the vote was going 100% against Ben but suspected Ben of having an idol, then Lauren’s smart move would have been to throw two votes someone else’s way to counteract an immune Ben’s single vote.  The fact Lauren didn’t, demonstrates she never even considered a Ben idol play an option.

[Rachel RSL]

47 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Ben didn’t vote to evict Mike - he VTE’d Ashley.  Kinda big indicator, that.  :>

And this is where I get confused. I feel like the editing monkeys must have left out a bunch of stuff in order to make TC impossible to figure out interesting. Like, had he planned to try to get everyone to vote for Mike but then deduced that Ashley was the others' 2nd choice so he went with that and that got left on the cutting room floor? If he was trying to get rid of Ashley, why did he tell her and Devon to vote for Mike? I still don't understand how doing that (or asking Ashley first) indicates that she was his real target. My brain hurts.

[Nashville]

26 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

And this is where I get confused. I feel like the editing monkeys must have left out a bunch of stuff in order to make TC impossible to figure out interesting. Like, had he planned to try to get everyone to vote for Mike but then deduced that Ashley was the others' 2nd choice so he went with that and that got left on the cutting room floor? If he was trying to get rid of Ashley, why did he tell her and Devon to vote for Mike? I still don't understand how doing that (or asking Ashley first) indicates that she was his real target. My brain hurts.

There are several possibilities.  Maybe (as I stated earlier) Ben directly addressed Ashley first to cast suspicion on her and paint a target on her back.  Or maybe Ben was directly targeting Mike, but (correctly) read Ashley’s and Devon’s differing expressions - more specifically, Ashley’s indication of agreement vs. Devin’s stone-faced noncommital lack of response - as evidence Ashley was on the wrong side of whatever vote was forthcoming, and responded accordingly.  

No at present way of knowing which - but Ben knew (a) he was the biggest outsider and target there, and (b) the others would jump wholeheartedly to chop down any straw of support Ben might have.  So to me, Ben’s “first impulse” audible conversation directed specifically to Ashley (and why Ashley of all people, after her total rebuff of him at camp?) followed immediately by his vote against her? It speaks volumes.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nashville
Expansion

[green]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

(Me.  This is about Mike below):

That pisses me off. I need to see that stuff. Say he ends up in F3 with Chrissy and Ben and wins, because he's been playing in this way that we haven't seen AND everyone likes him. I would feel so befuddled. This show has GOT to get better with their editing. Viewers shouldn't be so confused. 

 

2 hours ago, Irishsecra said:

Yeah the whole Mike edit is so damn bizarre. Lauren said he was such a good talker he could convince you of things which was not backed up by what we see in the show. Now we see mike is the reason Devon turned on Ashley and voted her out. Yet not a bit of this is on the show.

I think the fact that Mike was NOT shown doing that is the editors knowing he doesn't win so they aren't wasting minutes of air time building up a storyline of showing his good moves.  So I agree the editors need to do a better job as to hide that fact.

Now I am NOT spoiled.  Mike could win but I think the editors themselves are telling us he doesn't by their edits and comparing them with post-eviction interviews.  They don't take those interviews into account.  Not that 99% of the audience ever reads them which is why they feel safe with their edits and are right in that regards I guess.  It just gives away too much for us board readers who want to remain unspoiled though.

And that post back some that quoted Probst on saying Ashley would be a good person to invite back?  Stuff it, Probst.  She is an entirely forgettable whoever.  The only two "givens" for an invite back are Chrissy and Ben and if one of them wins they are probably not asked back unless other winners are too so not in some second chance season. 

Lauren is an outlier possibility to me because blue collar women on Survivor are few and far between and since I don't remember casts from season to season the only one I can think of right now is Sandra.  And I'd like to see more of these real people on the show and less with the endless 20-something fake blonde mactor types seeking fame and an entertainment career (ain't gonna happen).  But these shows always favor the endless look-alike 20-somethings with the "hot" bodies to hook male viewers it seems.

Edited December 14, 2017 by green

[Gummo]

I'm thinking they left out the Mike hustling and scrambling stuff because NOTHING can get in the way of Ben's winner edit. Ben, the wily, heroic veteran, working hard to win while the others lay around and complain. Ben, the lone striver against impossible odds, Ben the....

OK, I think I just made myself throw up a little bit.

But others on this board, much wiser than I am, called Ben's winner edit only a few weeks into the season. And they were right.

I mean, is there any doubt that Burnette and Probst, who both worship what they see as 'alpha males', wouldn't tie themselves into pretzels to help Ben win?

Heck, watching the episode, when Ben found the clue, I said to Mrs. Gummo, 'now, as soon as they turn off the camera,' Production will literally hand the idol to Ben just to make sure.' 

That's practically what happened.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

That pisses me off. I need to see that stuff. Say [Mike] ends up in F3 with Chrissy and Ben and wins, because he's been playing in this way that we haven't seen AND everyone likes him. I would feel so befuddled. This show has GOT to get better with their editing. Viewers shouldn't be so confused. 

I agree that it's puzzling and it would be baffling if he won.  But it's not like the editors haven't let us down before.  I'm still confused as to how Michelle Fitzgerald beat Aubrey.  Michelle was that season's equivalent of Ashley.  Mostly silent, thinks she is playing a great game, but made no really obvious moves.  

It does seem like we are being set up for a win by Ben.  "Oh that Ben, he's so heroic!  He's a Marine!  He's a PTSD-suffering fragile man!  But the Marine spirit can't be broken!  Look how he kept himself in the game by finding idols (and probably winning the final two immunities, ugh)!  What a survivor!  What a champion!"

So gag inducing.  Ben just isn't a very nice person... his comments about Cole, Joe and Chrissy indicate that.  If Ben is the winner I would find it surprising that they left in all his nasty comments about Chrissy.  Especially since 2017 is apparently the Year of the Woman (eye roll), actors and newscasters and politicians are dropping like flies, and they would have their winner making nasty comments to a middle-aged woman that were indicative of bullying behaviour?

[MissEwa]

20 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I think Devon could argue he only voted for Ashley because he knew he was next in line, and hoped to gain favor not voting for someone in the majority.  I don't think he'd have any problem beating Chrissy or Ryan.  

 

16 hours ago, Nashville said:

Yes - but then Devon still has to write somebody’s name down.  Who would you suggest?

I don't know if I'm missing something but... Ben?

The whole idol play is fishy to me - I feel like Jeff should have said he had to hold onto it until asked - but unless there's a specific rule change around playing it early, having/playing a HII doesn't mean people can't vote for you, it just means those votes don't count. 

So, I don't see why Devon couldn't have written Ben down anyway, just to keep his hands clean. He knows it's not going to count, and Ben knows it's not going to count, so all he has to say back at camp is that he knew Ashley was going anyway but had promised her he wouldn't write her name down. 

If playing an idol pre-votes means people aren't allowed to vote for you, that's a fundamental shift in its powers, IMO, and I'm curious to see if this is going to have unforeseen repercussions in future seasons. 

Anyway, I hate Ben but I would be okay with his win just for the fact that nobody followed him even though they were fully aware he was probably idol-hunting, and that is just ridiculously stupid. 

[violet and green]

6 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Because she had immunity.

Yes, but at every other tribal when she didn't have the immunity (aka those two times she had it) why is she not a major target? Her name comes up, my hopes get raised - but there she sits, smug and ingratiating and safe again.

I find it funny that people are barracking for her because she's a woman, and go women! - when it is clear she is a man's woman, and boy is she in for a treat when she reaches the 'invisible years'!

[LanceM]

6 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

 

I didn't like that either, especially since he's apparently made a fake one before. Why not leave the suspense that it could have been a bluff. Especially since he showed it early, that would make me suspicious that it was a Tony Vlachos move to throw the votes off of him.

 

Because Ben played the idol. Once you give the idol to Probst it is played and he has to reveal if it is real or not.  Had he refused to say whether it was real or not until after the votes he would essentially be helping Ben and interfering with the game.

This was Ben's choice to play the idol. If he wanted the others to wonder if it was fake or not he never would have gotten up and giving it to Jeff.

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, ghoulina said:

That pisses me off. I need to see that stuff.

I do too and to think they're cutting good strategy and game play to show us the looooongest, challenges ever.  I thought the reward challenge was never going to end. I know they like those rewards where someone has to show their hand by who they take along, but most of those challenges could be half as long with half the amount of food and have the same effect.

I've always liked the camp dynamics, too.  Why haven't we seen everyone working while Ryan just sits?

[millennium]

did I ever mention I hate the editor on this forum?

Edited December 15, 2017 by millennium

[millennium]

6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

 

@millennium: It helps me distinguish him. You can gather everybody from this season in a year, and I'd be, "Okay, I gotta talk to Ben. Where is he? [Ben puts on hat] HOLY GEEZ!!!! Where the hell did you come from?!? Do they teach ninja shit in the Marines?!?"

This is what I see: