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S03.E10: The Sin Bin

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On 12/11/2017 at 9:17 PM, Ria said:

Best line of the night: “Lopez stop talking”. She has become insufferable. It borders on insulting to have a grown woman and a professional written as if she is 12.

At least they finally found a way to make me like Lieutenant Underwear Model in a scene? I kind of wished he'd taken her by the shoulders and shaken her til her empty head rattled while he was at it.

 

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

That said, I kind of think that Dan should leave Trixie with Ella next time.  Ella can show Trixie the cool stuff she does in the lab and Trixie can teach Ella how to comport herself as something approaching a grown woman.

Amen!  How sad is it that a six- or seven-year-old is being written as more mature and in control of herself than Ella?

 

10 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

the abducted Sinnerman after Maze took a number on him would be all bloodied or something. What, did they blew all of the special FX budget on him gauging his eyes out?

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Yeah, aside from the eyes, dude looked like he'd been roughed up by a mugger, not tortured by a demon with millennia of experience tormenting the damned in Hell. Maze would know shallow cuts hurt the most without throwing the recipient into shock—Sinnerman should have looked like Frank or Julia from the Hellraiser movies in that scene. Also, Lucifer himself is being written as completely ineffectual at intimidating/punishing someone as compared to the first season where he seemed quite an expert.

 

I'm guessing that the whole Sinnerman-comes-to-LA thing was sparked by Lucifer's public debut there, perhaps with Cain blaming Lucifer for the Fall and the hardscrabble circumstances that led to his fratricide and wanting payback. (I guess Lucifer never stuck around to meet Adam & Eve's kids?) Perhaps prior to that he was leading a double life as policeman/criminal mastermind to pass the time and the guy we saw as Sinnerman was some orphan kid he'd lured into an Oliver Twist type situation?

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Is it possible Cain knows about  Chloe? If he keeps track of Angel's in general maybe he knew somehoe Amenadiel blessed Penelope?  We know Chloe had paparazzi  at her dad's funeral, so once knowing Penelope had a blessed kid keeping track of her wasn't exactly hard. Didn't  Lucifer make news himself when he confronted the Preacher in s1?

 

Amenadiel needs to be in this story so badly. If Cain has been walking around with a grudge against Lucifer and if he has been keeping track of him given Cain is known for killing his own brother, maybe Lucifer now having killed one of his own, with Amenadiel either being understanding or not caring very much set Cain off in some way that made him decide on now coming into their lives  (maybe for a time he was waiting to see if Mom and Lucifer would kill each other? )

 

Also, Ella likes evil. When Charlotte was the Goddess who hated humanity  (and was awful despite  not killing her own kids I saw no redemption of her ) Ella claims she saw "a light " in that Charlotte and now she is a fangirl of the world's first murderer. So far Cain is living up to a reputation as opposed to Lucifer and humanity having misjudged  him. Sure Ella likes Lucifer too but she never has had a hero worship of him like "Pierce". I don't like Ella like I did in season 2 but I find that interesting. I don't know what to make of Chloe wanting his approval so bad because it's still so out of character to me from the Chloe of seasons past.

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7 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I think they are worried of the "and then what" factor. If she accepts it, then what. She ends up dating the Devil? How would that work? Or she runs in horror and the show ends. I think they kind of have to keep Chloe in the dark until they figure out how it's going to work. If they rush it, the WILL screw it up. Of that I am 100% certain.

They're writers. It's what they're paid to do. Look at the character, imagine how she would react and then write that.

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1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

imagine how she would react and then write that.

The trouble is, once Chloe knows, the focus of the show has to shift, at least for a while, to Chloe's reaction, to Chloe knowing. If it doesn't, and she's like "oh, okay, let's carry on then" and nothing changes, there is really no point in her knowing.

They probably want to continue to explore the storyline they are currently working on before tackling Chloe knows! I figure they will get to it when there is enough room in the show to actually deal with it. It was easier with Linda because she's not the co-lead of the show and she's not his love interest. So they could kind of gloss over her reaction. They can't really do that with Chloe. It's going to have to be a major plot line that they are probably just not ready to deal with at this point in the story.

Oh, in more episode related news, every time I see the ep title, Sin Bin, I think of a really seedy strip club, not roller derby. lol

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3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Amen!  How sad is it that a six- or seven-year-old is being written as more mature and in control of herself than Ella?

To be fair Trixie was eight during season 2 and is probably nine now, just like the actress playing her.  Also, Trixie is being raised by Chloe and Dan.  And Maze.  Trixie is going to strike terror into the hearts of mean girls (and boys) everywhere when she hits high school.

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1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

The trouble is, once Chloe knows, the focus of the show has to shift, at least for a while, to Chloe's reaction, to Chloe knowing.

I don't know if that would be a bad thing. I think that it gives them some great opportunities.

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It would be hell for me. I have no interest in Chloe getting any more attention than she already gets. That actress grates on my nerves. I know it's going to happen eventually, I'm just trying to will it to not be any time soon. lol

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3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It would be hell for me. I have no interest in Chloe getting any more attention than she already gets.

She's the co-lead of the show.  She might not get more attention than she already gets but I seriously doubt she'll get any less.  That's just the nature of being the co-lead.  Her knowing would at least short-circuit a bit of the secrecy-induced stupid we get where she's forced to twist herself into pretzels to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion that something supernatural occurred.

I have to admit that I'd love to read the report Pierce wrote about how an unarmed, recently blinded man managed to escape with Lucifer and presented such a deadly threat that Pierce had to shoot him several times.

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2 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Her knowing would at least short-circuit a bit of the secrecy-induced stupid we get where she's forced to twist herself into pretzels to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion that something supernatural occurred.

He's barely supernatural anymore so I guess they found a way around that. lol 

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8 hours ago, xander874 said:

 

Another thing I mentioned. I know she is "awkward" but she acts like she has never interacted with humans before. She is still mom. I thought when Charlotte came back, this would give TH the chance to reinvent the character. Not sure if its the acting choice, the writing, or directing (or a combo of all) but Charlotte is acting like a Cylon.

Yassss. Totally agree. Except Six did a better job mimicking a human than Charlotte seems to. 

 

Come on show! I know you can do better than this!

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Yippee!!  Bring on the celestial stuff, Cain. 

I do like TH in the Charlotte role-- she had a moment with Trixie that was so cute. My thought is that Charlotte isn't Mum anymore. She runs into her former sex-toy (who she actually likes) with his child in tow, and she was awkward for a moment, but then agreed to watch Trixie for the day.  That strikes me as a reasonable response from a human mother-- I've seen actual mothers be much worse with other peoples' children. Would have been better for her to give Trixie something fun to do in her office, but she was painted as a terrible mother in the first place, so I don't think this is evidence of any ongoing Mum presence.

Poor Aimee Garcia.  One week, she gets a reprieve from being a dope; the very next week, she has to throw herself in the mix with the WORST actor on the show. I hope she successfully advocates for a return to a better Ella.  This ditzy thing is wearing so thin. She sells it, with the doe eyes and the heartfelt attempt to connect, but she shout not have to stoop that low.

Tom Ellis looked as good or better than ever in that 3-piece grey with the startlingly white shirt. And what a great job he did in this ep-- my favorite line being "nut to butt... have your six... foxhole" and Welling didn't drop the ball on the response. But that was all I enjoyed about Welling this episode, until he lurched off of the floor. 

Loved seeing Maze in torture mode (LAB is so lovely), but totally agree she didn't bring the whole demon vibe-- and shame on FOX for not giving us a more damaged "Sinnerman" after her torture. 

I'd take Trixie out as a wingman any day.

Please, writers, give Chloe some consistency-- I know breaking a rule is within her character, but a detailed plot that puts a fake bomb on Dan's desk?  Nope.

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2 hours ago, johntfs said:

She's the co-lead of the show.  She might not get more attention than she already gets but I seriously doubt she'll get any less.  That's just the nature of being the co-lead.  Her knowing would at least short-circuit a bit of the secrecy-induced stupid we get where she's forced to twist herself into pretzels to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion that something supernatural occurred.

This. And I'm hoping that it might add some interest to her character, too, and that it would add a layer or two.

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3 hours ago, johntfs said:

I have to admit that I'd love to read the report Pierce wrote about how an unarmed, recently blinded man managed to escape with Lucifer and presented such a deadly threat that Pierce had to shoot him several times.

I'm still not clear why he shot "Sinnerman" in the first place. Wasn't the plan to get Lucifer to kill the guy personally theoretically his doing? I'd think having second thoughts based on either backing down from causing a metaphysical shitstorm or having mentored him from childhood would take the form of saving him, not double-tapping him to beat Lucifer to the punch. With Chloe on hand, resolving the situation nonlethally would have been easy, particularly since Lucifer obviously didn't want to kill.

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At least that provided a little comic relief with Lucifer impatient and perhaps a little worried when he didn't get up.

I thought it was pretty funny when Cain finally made a noise and started to sit up, and Lucifer rolled his eyes, like, "Fina-fucking-lly!" LOL.

Quote

the abducted Sinnerman after Maze took a number on him would be all bloodied or something. What, did they blew all of the special FX budget on him gauging his eyes out?

I actually didn't want them to do too much, because then the Lieutenant would have no recourse but to arrest Lucifer for brutalizing the guy. The show didn't have time for that kind of plot, if they wanted to move on to the reveal about Cain. Because Sinnerman wasn't too bloodied up, the lieutenant was able to write the "report" that Sinnerman had kidnapped Lucifer, not the other way around.

But it was pretty lame to act like Maze had had time to try everything in her arsenal - I think they should have made it that the cops showed up before they'd had enough time, so Lucifer had had to take the more direct route to getting him to spill his guts by threatening to kill him outright (and then finding out that that was Sinnerman's plan all along).

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4 hours ago, johntfs said:

presented such a deadly threat that Pierce had to shoot him several times.

When Pierce busted in the room L had a bigass knife at blinded-himself guy. I'm guessing the report just reverses it.

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1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'm still not clear why he shot "Sinnerman" in the first place. Wasn't the plan to get Lucifer to kill the guy personally theoretically his doing?

The best I can guess is that either Cain killed him to keep him quiet and stay off Lucifer's radar (and that didn't work well enough), or getting Lucifer to kill was The Sinnerman's own idea.  Perhaps The Sinnerman was actually Abel, who gets reincarnated into different forms that Cain has to kill.  Maybe Abel hoped that Lucifer killing him would end the cycle and Cain decided he didn't want the cycle to end just yet.

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4 minutes ago, White Sheep said:

I can’t believe. I fell for the oldest trick in the book.   Tom W said the Lt character had no super nature powers in his pre-season interview.  

Well, Cain doesn't have any supernatural powers.  He's just afflicted by a divine curse that's completely outside his control and therefore not truly a power as such.  Tom W said his character had no supernatural powers and he doesn't.  He has a supernatural "condition."

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9 hours ago, White Sheep said:

I can’t believe. I fell for the oldest trick in the book.   Tom W said the Lt character had no super nature powers in his pre-season interview.  

If it makes you feel any better, I believed Jeff Fahey when he said in an interview that his character Lapidus was most definitely absolutely dead on "Lost."

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12 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'm still not clear why he shot "Sinnerman" in the first place. Wasn't the plan to get Lucifer to kill the guy personally theoretically his doing? I'd think having second thoughts based on either backing down from causing a metaphysical shitstorm or having mentored him from childhood would take the form of saving him, not double-tapping him to beat Lucifer to the punch. With Chloe on hand, resolving the situation nonlethally would have been easy, particularly since Lucifer obviously didn't want to kill.

The picture of the very young Sinnerman-wannabe with TW established a relationship between the two that was big brother/little brother. My guess is that Cain has been going through his cursed life bonding with people in a sibling way and then killing them. He wanted Lucifer to kill "his brother" so he wouldn't have to -- probably hoping he could get rid of his curse in some way. But when it got to the scene where Lucifer wasn't going to, I expect he was compelled to pull the trigger.

Just my theory.

Edited by rainsmom
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Lucifer used to be Satan, Amenadiel was an angel and Maze was a demon. Now they are all essentially humans with issues. So what is the point of the show now? 

I’m not so sure about the show embracing a literal interpretation of the Bible now with Cain as the 1st murderer. The series didn’t start out that way  in their depiction of Lucifer. Apes have been killing each other long before humans evolved. Nothing new there. And I’m not so sure the first Homo sapiens would look like Tom Welling or even be white. I just get the sense the show is luching along from one half told story/plot device to another without fully telling any story. First it was Chloe being put here by God, then Mom, then the reappearing wings, then Sinnerman, now Cain. It’s just feels disjointed. 

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15 hours ago, sinkwriter said:
Quote

At least that provided a little comic relief with Lucifer impatient and perhaps a little worried when he didn't get up.

I thought it was pretty funny when Cain finally made a noise and started to sit up, and Lucifer rolled his eyes, like, "Fina-fucking-lly!" LOL.

The fact that the stabbing resulted in absolutely no blood that we could see signified to me that the stabbing was not going to take.

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15 hours ago, johntfs said:

Well, Cain doesn't have any supernatural powers.  He's just afflicted by a divine curse that's completely outside his control and therefore not truly a power as such.  Tom W said his character had no supernatural powers and he doesn't.  He has a supernatural "condition."

I know there a LOT of wiggle in Tom interview statement. But he did say.  NOTHING super natural.  He just a regular guy.   Of course he NOT a regular guy.  He may not have super powers. But he is cruse by a cruse that give him super powers.  So in my view. That was a untruth.   Just not a false led on the subject or from a certain point of view, etc. 

Edited by White Sheep
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2 hours ago, White Sheep said:

I know there a LOT of wiggle in Tom interview statement. But he did say.  NOTHING super natural.  He just a regular guy.   Of course he NOT a regular guy.  He may not have super powers. But he is cruse by a cruse that give him super powers.  So in my view. That was a untruth.   Just not a false led on the subject or from a certain point of view, etc. 

Out of curiosity, when he gave that interview, how many episodes had been filmed? If he hadn't seen the script for this episode yet, he wouldn't necessarily know that his character was anything but normal. The actors generally get no advance insight into their character arcs.

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The fact that the stabbing resulted in absolutely no blood that we could see signified to me that the stabbing was not going to take.

I didn't notice that in the moment, but I would say that doesn't necessarily mean anything because sometimes when someone is impaled, there is no blood until they pull the knife or stake or whatever out of the body. I saw that on one of those old Rescue 911 shows, where a woman was in a car accident and got impaled with a fence post that smashed through her windshield. The only reason she survived was because she didn't try to pull out the fence post - it was holding all the blood in. If she'd pulled it out, she would have bled to death in minutes. That's always stuck with me because it was such a disturbing factoid.

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2 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I didn't notice that in the moment, but I would say that doesn't necessarily mean anything because sometimes when someone is impaled, there is no blood until they pull the knife or stake or whatever out of the body. I saw that on one of those old Rescue 911 shows, where a woman was in a car accident and got impaled with a fence post that smashed through her windshield. The only reason she survived was because she didn't try to pull out the fence post - it was holding all the blood in. If she'd pulled it out, she would have bled to death in minutes. That's always stuck with me because it was such a disturbing factoid.

I remember seeing that episode on tv.    You are correct on the blood lost.

 

Hopefully Lucy can help Cain dress better.  Or at least introduce him to Lucy tailor and shoe guys. 

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Is it just me or does Maze look different? Maybe the actress is just fuller in the face? I can't place it. I figured she was carrying some left over pregnancy weight but then they showed her in the leather dress and she looked amazing for just having a baby. But something is throwing me off when I look at her...

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On 12/13/2017 at 10:03 PM, Bruinsfan said:

I'm still not clear why he shot "Sinnerman" in the first place. Wasn't the plan to get Lucifer to kill the guy personally theoretically his doing? I'd think having second thoughts based on either backing down from causing a metaphysical shitstorm or having mentored him from childhood would take the form of saving him, not double-tapping him to beat Lucifer to the punch. With Chloe on hand, resolving the situation nonlethally would have been easy, particularly since Lucifer obviously didn't want to kill.

My thought was that Lucifer actually got through to to guy (in a way), and was on the verge of figuring things out, since the guy was telling him that Lucifer had to kill him and he was asking why it had to be him when Pierce shot him.  It was about shutting up the false Sinnerman, not protecting Lucifer or seeing a threat to Lucifer.  Cain was hoping that he could keep undercover longer, if his minion wasn't telling Lucifer things Cain didn't want him to know.  Cain may have groomed this guy from a young age to be willing to do all of what we saw him do, from the murders to the eye-gouging to trying to get Lucifer to kill him personally.  A man so many thousands of years old may feel a detachment from the fleeting lives around him, enough to manipulate someone he's known since that person was a child to such a grisly end.

18 hours ago, Ria said:

Apes have been killing each other long before humans evolved. Nothing new there. And I’m not so sure the first Homo sapiens would look like Tom Welling or even be white.

I'm not sure the show's mythology actually relies on evolution or on the most likely facial features of the "first" people.  In fact, if there is a Cain, then it's the Adam and Eve version, not evolution, so apes have nothing to do with humans, and of course the first family is white--it's more King James than Darwin.

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On 12/12/2017 at 8:09 AM, rainsmom said:

But... the bad actor dude was a police captain. How many years has he been working as a cop and working his way up to that position? With what kind of assumption that someday he would to transfer into the precinct where Lucifer is a consultant? Talk about predestination.

It's a lot more likely that Cain/Pierce took on the role of law enforcement officer because it's highly useful.  If he needed to murder someone, being in charge of the investigation would make it much easier to cover his own involvement.  Besides we can't be completely sure that Cain is the actual villain.  It's possible that The Sinnerman did the murders on his own to set up his own death at Lucifer's hands.  It's quite possible that Cain sees himself as an instrument of justice.  Given his own divine punishment he could desire that other lawbreakers should be equally punished.  That might explain his disdain for Dan, a "corrupt cop" who got away with his crimes.

So, figure Cain was already in a law enforcement role when he came across the name Lucifer Morningstar and figured out that Lucifer was the real Devil and not just some poseur nightclum owner.

Edited by johntfs

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17 hours ago, White Sheep said:

Hopefully Lucy can help Cain dress better.  

You mean there isn't an official managerial style guide that specifies which gray tshirt gets worn and how tight it should be?  

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13 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's possible that The Sinnerman did the murders on his own to set up his own death at Lucifer's hands.  It's quite possible that Cain sees himself as an instrument of justice.  Given his own divine punishment he could desire that other lawbreakers should be equally punished.  That might explain his disdain for Dan, a "corrupt cop" who got away with his crimes.

It was my understanding that the blinded guy was not Sinnerman. He was just pretending to push Lucifer's buttons and get him to commit murder. Pierce was the real Sinnerman. Didn't Lucifer say the blind guy was a fake?

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9 hours ago, Robin the Hoodie said:

Pierce was the real Sinnerman. Didn't Lucifer say the blind guy was a fake?

That's what Lucifer thinks and he's probably right.  At the same time we don't yet know Cain's story yet.  Presumably we'll start to learn that when the show comes back.

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On 12/13/2017 at 1:04 PM, Bruinsfan said:

 they finally found a way to make me like Lieutenant Underwear Model in a scene? I kind of wished he'd taken her by the shoulders and shaken her til her empty head rattled while he was at it.

Heh "Lieutenant Underwear Model." Tom Welling actually does it for me more now as a beefy 40-something salt-n-pepper Daddy type than in his 20-year old Abercrombie days. His face was almost TOO pretty for me back then. I like the older, more rugged look he has now.

It'll be interesting to see what he'll be after that reveal.

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Did anyone notice that Chloe may have a vulnerability effect on Lt. Pierce/Cain too? 

I remember he was shot, if I remember correctly, trying to save Chloe from the bullets.

I really hope this was indeed planned, as it should lead to interesting plot points.

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9 hours ago, Lovebug said:

Did anyone notice that Chloe may have a vulnerability effect on Lt. Pierce/Cain too? 

I remember he was shot, if I remember correctly, trying to save Chloe from the bullets.

I really hope this was indeed planned, as it should lead to interesting plot points.

Thought about that too. Another explanation might be that he can be wounded (as when Lucifer stabbed him) but just can't die of any wound -- which sounds like it would suck to be him.

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1 hour ago, wilnil said:

Thought about that too. Another explanation might be that he can be wounded (as when Lucifer stabbed him) but just can't die of any wound -- which sounds like it would suck to be him.

He seems like he can "die" temporarily, but quickly gets resurrected and healed.  Maybe Chloe nerfs the healing/invulnerability factor of all supernatural/divine beings as long as she's present.  We know she doesn't affect their other abilities because Lucifer can use his "tell me your desire" power around her and in the second episode, Amenadiel froze time in her presence.  I think one of the funniest things would be that God gave Chloe that ability so she could potentially deal with divine/supernatural beings and not to manipulate Lucifer into getting a "girlfriend."  It would be just like Lucifer to make that all about him.  That Lucifer is "Angel" to Chloe's "Buffy."

Edited by johntfs

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6 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Have they used up the filler episodes from last year? 

I think there is one more, "City of Angels?", currently scheduled for January 1.

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On 12/18/2017 at 1:23 PM, wilnil said:

Thought about that too. Another explanation might be that he can be wounded (as when Lucifer stabbed him) but just can't die of any wound -- which sounds like it would suck to be him.

That's kind of a "Highlander" way to do things.

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3 hours ago, ketose said:

That's kind of a "Highlander" way to do things.

Well, since Cain is unique among humans, we can say that "There can be only one."

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Cain was supposed to be cursed by Yahweh, not blessed, so that actually sounds like a pretty effective way to get the "see how your brother felt?" point across.

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I was thinking they should have keep Chloe hairstyle from the first season.  So no-nonsense and befitting for her.  I guess they got a bigger budget and more hair style people.  After there first season. 

 

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