S02.E04: Beryl

[Hanahope]

Those real life photos of Margaret, she looks better in 1967 than she did in 1959.

I can sympathize that Margaret is in a tough place.  Nothing really to do.  When did the monarchy start doing more humanitarian and other charity causes?  Or did Margaret just have no interest in doing that?

And I can see where it would be hard to find someone in the nobility to marry that probably wouldn't be put off by the difference in rank, just like Philip.  or act like complete and utter assholes like Billy Wallace.

At the same time, she makes it hard for people to want to treat her as a real person, when she also wants to still be noticed as a princess.  You can't really have it both ways.  I can certainly see where she's attracted to Tony because he doesn't treat her like a princess, but at the same time, he doesn't treat her all that well either.  The whole leaving her downstairs to sit while he banged around upstairs, really doing nothing, is rude to anyone, not just a princess.

So I guess the Queen is only interested in sex to make another baby.  Welcome to the world of many husbands, Philip.

[VCRTracking]

As one of the comments to this tweet said, no way was she giving all this up for Peter Townsend!

[J-Man]

Did it seem anachronistic to anyone that Tony and Margaret were assigning numerical attractiveness rankings to their dinner party companions? ("She's an 8.") I didn't think this became common practice until several decades later, popularized by the movie "10."

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, J-Man said:

Did it seem anachronistic to anyone that Tony and Margaret were assigning numerical attractiveness rankings to their dinner party companions? ("She's an 8.") I didn't think this became common practice until several decades later, popularized by the movie "10."

I do think it is a little anachronistic for that period, but the practice was around before the movie. I was told my "number" in 1973. So nice of him to share...

[Aliferously]

I just love that everyone seems to be in the habit of opening their newspapers on page three rather then checking the headlines first.

I think this episode was my favourite of the series so far.

[dubbel zout]

Wasn't there at least one tabloid that always had a picture of a half-naked, very busty woman on page three?

[biakbiak]

On 2/24/2018 at 3:03 PM, dubbel zout said:

Wasn't there at least one tabloid that always had a picture of a half-naked, very busty woman on page three?

The Sun.

[Superpole2000]

I thought this episode was sexy. I would have edited out a lot of the banging around in the photo studio. I think the tension was already building without all of that unnecessary stalling. Nevertheless, I really felt this episode through Margaret's eyes. Her problems are first world problems, but they are still interesting. We are all human, after all.

As much as I enjoyed it, I do think this episode likely pushed the envelope a bit in the creative licence department. Would Mr. Photographer have been quite so "Super Cool Guy with an Attitude!" to Margaret? Would she have been quite that deferential? It worked for this episode, of course, but my guess is that reality was a touch less extreme.

[CousinAmy]

On 3/22/2018 at 12:29 AM, Superpole2000 said:

I thought this episode was sexy. I would have edited out a lot of the banging around in the photo studio. I think the tension was already building without all of that unnecessary stalling. Nevertheless, I really felt this episode through Margaret's eyes. Her problems are first world problems, but they are still interesting. We are all human, after all.

As much as I enjoyed it, I do think this episode likely pushed the envelope a bit in the creative licence department. Would Mr. Photographer have been quite so "Super Cool Guy with an Attitude!" to Margaret? Would she have been quite that deferential? It worked for this episode, of course, but my guess is that reality was a touch less extreme.

In real life Tony was very cool. I think that Margaret was attracted to that. 

[Runningwild]

On 3/25/2018 at 5:50 PM, CousinAmy said:

In real life Tony was very cool. I think that Margaret was attracted to that. 

Cool or full of himself? 

[dubbel zout]

Why not both?

[CousinAmy]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:39 PM, Runningwild said:

Cool or full of himself? 

He was "in with the in crowd" popular, handsome, charming. Reckless badboy. So different from any of Margaret's other possibilities.  Poor thing, she was really constrained by her birth order! Elizabeth could snag a handsome Greek Prince; Margaret had fewer options. 

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

Poor thing, she was really constrained by her birth order! Elizabeth could snag a handsome Greek Prince; Margaret had fewer options. 

Philip was a very minor handsome Greek prince. Margaret could have married a crown prince if she wanted to—that's the path a lot of younger sisters took. But there weren't that many available, and I don't think Margaret wanted someone higher in rank than she was.

[doodlebug]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 12:03 PM, dubbel zout said:

Philip was a very minor handsome Greek prince. Margaret could have married a crown prince if she wanted to—that's the path a lot of younger sisters took. But there weren't that many available, and I don't think Margaret wanted someone higher in rank than she was.

Had Margaret married a crown prince, she would've also probably had to leave Great Britain forever.  Philip was from a royal family that no longer held the throne in Greece and that had developed deep roots in Britain over the years.  There weren't a lot of other princes out there like him who wouldn't have had a kingdom someplace where Margaret would've had to live as well as a whole family for her to contend with.  Margaret didn't want to leave Britain and she surely wasn't interested in competing with a bunch of in laws for attention.  

Edited April 7, 2018 by doodlebug

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Margaret didn't want to leave Britain and she surely wasn't interested in competing with a bunch of in laws for attention.  

Not to mention marrying a crown prince would mean more work than she wanted. She wanted the perks of royalty without the effort.

[kassygreene]

I'm pretty sure there were no crown princes available for Margaret - at least no Protestant ones.  What she wanted was Peter Townsend; once that was spiked there really weren't many candidates left - most of the British aristocrats of her group were married by then; the only Protestant royals left were (if I recall correctly) Denmark, Norway, & Sweden.  Greece's future sovereign married a daughter of the Danish King; the Spanish and the Dutch are Catholic; the Germans, Austrians, and Italians were definitively out of power; the Russians were exiles....  I always thought the great tragedy of her life was that she was a talented and intelligent human being condemned by birth to a life that neither gave her a stimulating education nor allowed her to explore being anything but a King's daughter & Queen's sister.

[dubbel zout]

41 minutes ago, kassygreene said:

the Dutch are Catholic

No, they're Protestant, a merger of the Dutch Reformed and Lutheran churches. (Queen Máxima is Catholic, but she was married in a Protestant ceremony and her daughters are being raised Protestant.)

41 minutes ago, kassygreene said:

I always thought the great tragedy of her life was that she was a talented and intelligent human being condemned by birth to a life that neither gave her a stimulating education nor allowed her to explore being anything but a King's daughter & Queen's sister.

Her life was somewhat limited no matter what, but she could have done more had she been so inclined. 

[Dirtybubble]

I found this episode a little difficult to watch simply because I know what happens to their relationship.   I adore Princess Margaret and I was so happy this was a episode about her but dang I wish I didn't know all about their futures.  

I did like the comparison towards the end of the episode from Margaret happily dancing around the room to the utter dullness of Elizabeth and Philip's marriage.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 4:11 AM, Dirtybubble said:

I found this episode a little difficult to watch simply because I know what happens to their relationship.   I adore Princess Margaret and I was so happy this was a episode about her but dang I wish I didn't know all about their futures.  

I did like the comparison towards the end of the episode from Margaret happily dancing around the room to the utter dullness of Elizabeth and Philip's marriage.  

There certaily was a comparision and even opposite between Margaret and Elizabeth in the end of the episode.

However, I wouldn't find Margaret happy, rather pulsating after riding on the backseat of Tony's motorcycle - a new experience to her, containing freedom of movement she was usually denied because of the royal status - and dreaming alone like a teen girl after all boredom she had suffered in the episode.

As for Elizabeth's marriage, a marriage that lasts decades can't be thrilling and happy all the time but there are always better times and worse times. The end of the episode showed Elizabeth's alienation from Philip at the time, but it also showed how hard their official duties were - they didn't dress up in order to enjoy themselves, but out of duty towards their guests. Even before sleeping, Elizabeth wrote her diary out of duty.

Thus, the episode showed once again, that Margaret, however gifted and charming she was, lacked the quality she would have needed as a Queen: a sense of duty which helps to sustain boredom which reading state papers and taking part in official events necessarily mostly mean. 

[Roseanna]

On 4/7/2018 at 6:04 PM, kassygreene said:

the only Protestant royals left were (if I recall correctly) Denmark, Norway, & Sweden. 

Danemark had a Crown Princess. Harald of Norway and and Carl Gustav of Swedenm were too young to Margaret, born in 1937 and in 1946 respectively. and Both married commoners. Harald got permission after dating nine years.

Maybe Margaret resigned too early and too easily?

On 4/7/2018 at 6:04 PM, kassygreene said:

 I always thought the great tragedy of her life was that she was a talented and intelligent human being condemned by birth to a life that neither gave her a stimulating education nor allowed her to explore being anything but a King's daughter & Queen's sister.

There were some things that were definitely forbidden from Margaret because of her royal status, such as becoming an actress or singer to which she had talents. But she could have started to study privately once she was an adult and got a proper education when she was at 30, nobody could have prevented that.

On 4/7/2018 at 6:42 PM, dubbel zout said:

Her life was somewhat limited no matter what, but she could have done more had she been so inclined. 

I agree. Almost all people have restrictions, adversities and sorrows in their life which they can't chose, but they can always chose how they react to them. 

[CousinAmy]

I think Princess Anne is the hardest-working woman not in show business! She has a very busy schedule - even if most are appearances at charitable events. Margaret could have found plenty to do if she wanted - but I doubt she wanted to "work." The glamorous life Tony introduced her to was too enticing.

Edited April 25, 2018 by CousinAmy

[chitowngirl]

And do we see any of the younger Royals taking up all Princess Anne does? I can’t picture it unless it is parceled out amongst many.

[doodlebug]

5 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

And do we see any of the younger Royals taking up all Princess Anne does? I can’t picture it unless it is parceled out amongst many.

Anne did 540 appearances on behalf of the Crown last year. Prince Charles did a few more engagments, mainly due to a bunch of overseas engagements.  Meanwhile, Harry, William and Kate made 482 appearances total between the 3 of them, although Kate did need some time off for hyperemesis.  Anyway, it is pretty obvious the younger generation is really going to need to step it up as the famiy workhorses age.  The Queen, BTW, at age 91, put the grandkids to shame with 296 engagement and even Prince Philip came out 131 times before retiring in August.

As for Margaret, as this series has demonstrated, had little to no interest in carrying out any royal obligations although she was very, very interested in the trappings of royalty; enjoying the perks while refusing to do anything but a small fraction of the work.  She really was spoiled.

[dubbel zout]

The queen apparently okayed William and Kate not doing a huge number of engagements while their kids are so young.

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder to stick to discussing the episode; the current royals aren't the topic here, that discussion belongs over in either History Talk or Tabloids. Thank you!

[chaifan]

I'm late to the game, catching up on Netflix.  A few questions if anyone can answer...  first, Margaret is wearing a tiara at the anniversary dinner party.  I thought that women couldn't wear tiaras until the were married (actually, on their wedding day).  I've seen that in several articles since William & Kate's marriage, then with Megan and also Eugenie.  Anyone know if princesses are exempt, or if this is just a new rule.

Also, someone noted above that this was supposed to be the Cartier Scroll Tiara, but in comparing pictures via google, it seems very similar but also quite different.  Quite a bit bigger/taller, with a different band.  The show works so hard on details, it would be weird for them to get this so wrong.  I wonder if the one used is a real tiara - not the actual Cartier Scroll, but one someone had made modeled after that and it was lent to the show.  Any info out there on where they get the jewelry for the show?

Who was Margaret's lady in waiting, because based on her house for the dinner party and the band and the servants, she must be incredibly wealthy.  So why would she be a lady in waiting?

I am so glad the Fug Girls' recaps are linked in this thread.  That answered other questions...  who got married in the opening scene?  Answer:  don't know, don't care, wasn't important.  OK, I get it.  I wish I knew that when I was desperately trying to figure out during the show.  Who was Margaret flirting with and sort of promising to marry?  Answer:  don't know, they haven't given us his name yet, you'll find out a few scenes later.  The FG's just assure me that I'm not crazy, and that's nice to know.

[Athena]

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

Who was Margaret's lady in waiting, because based on her house for the dinner party and the band and the servants, she must be incredibly wealthy.  So why would she be a lady in waiting?

Lady Elizabeth Cavendish. Being a lady in waiting is not a paid position and has traditionally been a role for noblewomen and especially rich ones since they can afford to do a voluntary job. She was a friend of the family and  close to the Queen and Margaret. In the past, being a lady in waiting was a good social mobilizer since you'd be spending a lot of time with the Royals (see most of Henry VIII's wives). Even though it is an unpaid PA job, it can be a good gig if you're friendly with the Queen or the Princess you're waiting for. HRM The Queen officially has nine, but not all of them are full time and only help her with certain things. Most importantly, the ladies in waiting are their confidants and friends since the Queen and Margaret didn't go to school outside the home or can make friends like  regular people. 

[bijoux]

I honestly can't suss out the intention behind the photo shoot scenes. Tony was creepy as fuck banging around upstairs. I felt like I was watching a scary movie. Get out of the house, Margaret!

[Umbelina]

https://www.mamamia.com.au/princess-margaret-racy-photo/

Interesting article about "the photo" which, by the way, was lovely.  It looks like the show combined the birthday photo with a later portrait of Margaret by Armstrong Jones.

[PegLeigh]

On 12/11/2017 at 4:18 AM, Linderhill said:

I wasn't because the darkroom scenes threw me out of the scene.  I'm a photographer and have worked in darkrooms, the tongs were wrong (that struck me first), it was too bright, etc.  I also was put off by the idiocy of him banging around uselessly over her head.  What an ass.  I remember seeing Matthew Goode on the Good Wife, and he's doing a great job despite those photographic errors.  

I'm a photographer and printer, the tongs  are the ones that are used to wipe excess liquid off a developed film, and was a modern one.  When and where was that film developed? The procest would have taken at least an hour.  He produces a print without test strips, uses water instead of stop (which you can do, but will exhaust the fix) and i know i am being a pedant the image is pegged up without being washed....a mistake all film makers seem to make for the sake of the scene.  It would require at least twenty minutes washing time.  He talks about using natural light and a Leica, during the photography scene i don't think i saw him focus this Leica once.  He's holding his camera  away from his face as if it is a digital is  using lights and the Hasselblad serves as a prop arm rest.  That said i enjoyed the episode   I just wonder why, when so many other details in this series are accurate, these aren't!

Edited August 21, 2019 by PegLeigh

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, PegLeigh said:

I just wonder why, when so many other details in this series are accurate, these aren't!

I think it's two-fold. The production take its greatest pains with historical elements that may evoke nostalgia or even reverence, however rueful or ironic. There's not much mystique to modern-day craft. And the writer is painting Armstrong-Jones as less an artist than a bounder who used his craft to advance his place, and less a rebel than a cad. Who cares about his tools?

[Linderhill]

On August 21, 2019 at 6:45 AM, PegLeigh said:

He talks about using natural light and a Leica, during the photography scene i don't think i saw him focus this Leica once.  He's holding his camera  away from his face as if it is a digital is  using lights and the Hasselblad serves as a prop arm rest. 

exactly.  The whole holding the camera away from your face is something that drives me crazy whenever people are shown using DSLRs let alone film cameras.  Unless its a view camera (which are fairly obvious) you have to get your face right up there on a camera to see what is going to be photographed. The focus thing I kind of let slide giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's using zone focus and possibly (maybe) focused before he's shown on camera.  (its been a while since I watched).  And yes, those were squeegee tongs not tray tongs.  And of course they wouldn't show the whole 20 min. of fix and wash time, its all dead air in a TV drama.  Its annoying but I always wonder, whenever I see darkroom work on screen, how they like those huge chemical stains later on or how they like the faded or ruined photos.   

[apollonia666]

On 12/9/2017 at 8:51 AM, allonsyalice said:

Honestly? Margaret blasting Ella Fitzgerald and getting super way too drunk is the biggest mood of 2017.

I'm reading all these old threads because I am watching The Crown for the first time. 2020 would like to have a word.

[allonsyalice]

On 11/24/2020 at 7:35 PM, apollonia666 said:

I'm reading all these old threads because I am watching The Crown for the first time. 2020 would like to have a word.

you are absolutely right, 2017 was nothing compared to this hell of a year. I'd like to amend my post. 

"Honestly? Margaret blasting Ella Fitzgerald and getting super way too drunk is the biggest mood of 2020"

[Lonesome Rhodes]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Here I thought Tony was the big tease in this ep, and it turns out it was Morgan.  We got Tommy reacting to the pic, which got me revved up, and then...zero, zip, nada.  Boo!

I noted that Philip took a copy of the Times, which is the staid/traditional newspaper in England.  Yet, there was this large picture of the "nekkid" Margaret.  Would the Times have published such a thing back then?

What horrid fate did Margaret's driver suffer for losing contact with her?

The best moment for me was when Philip got the insult and joke Elizabeth was making at Macmillan's expense.  Great looks shared between them.