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S07.E09: One Little Tear


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Crazy 5 a.m. thought: could WHook be the Guardian? I thought of that because I was thinking about Gothel's test of Rapunzel, and then the way they echoed that in Victoria claiming she was testing Jacinda, and both of them failed, but then remembered that Weaver was supposedly testing Rogers in trying to get him to frame Henry, but he passed when he refused, so really, Rogers/WHook is the only character who was tested who passed the test. He's also the only one who voluntarily went into the tower. Rapunzel and Gothel were magically trapped there. Alice was born there. But WHook went there on his own, returned to bring the magical flower, then gave up his revenge and everything he owned to stay there with Alice. That would seem to be the kind of pure of heart thing Gothel was looking for. It would also create a shocking twist for Rumple to realize he had to depend on his old enemy, and any version of Hook would be the last person Rumple would want going anywhere near that dagger, so it could delay the discovery. Rumple's spell may have brought him to Alice, since she has some of WHook's DNA, and WHook was likely to be near her. Or it could be a combo, WHook and Alice together make the Guardian, which could explain why they were cursed to be forced to separate.

And then it occurred to me that WHook/Rogers has pretty consistently made the right choices (at least, as far as he was able to know -- freeing Gothel wasn't a good thing, but he only knew he was freeing a woman who'd been held captive), and he's done so on his own, without anyone telling him to make better choices or cheerleading him. He decided on his own not to switch places with Hook Prime, he refused to frame Henry, he helped Sabine, he resisted the temptation of the bottle of rum, he stood up to Weaver. Ironic, considering that Emma encouraged him to stay with Henry because Henry always made the right choice, and that would help him, and we haven't seen Henry make too many choices. For our central character, he doesn't do much. His absence made no difference in this episode.

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You know you have a problem when everyone else is more interesting than your main character. Once isn't the only show to fall into it, of course.

Two shows I can think of right away that definitely don't fall into that trap are Buffy and Avatar. Buffy and Aang are just as interesting as their supporting characters.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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Shanna Marie, I LOVE that idea. I wonder if Rumple would still go through with it if the Guardian turned out to be Whook. lol I wonder if Whook would fall back into his old vengeance if given such power over his enemy. So many good stories could be mined from this. So it won't happen.

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I tried looking at side by side photos, and I just can't make my mind see the similarities.  The episode would probably have been a lot better for people who could see the resemblance.

Weaver was so desperately looking for Lucy at the end, because he suddenly cared?  How did he THINK Victoria was going to resurrect Anastasia?  Is this the same Rumple who supposedly thinks five steps ahead?

The whole "Lantern will connect us" line... did they have a family tradition of using lanterns or something?  I know it was a clunky way to include some Tangled imagery, but it needed more development to be of any significance.

In an interview a few months back, A&E were saying Lucy was going to parent-trap Henry and Jacinda, but we haven't seen that.  Now, Sabine uses the same phrase.

If Victoria knew Weaver was aware he was Rumple and Victoria knew Weaver knew she was Rapunzel, what was the big deal with Rumple calling her Rapunzel in the prison?  

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22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I tried looking at side by side photos, and I just can't make my mind see the similarities.  The episode would probably have been a lot better for people who could see the resemblance.

I think the hair and tan must be tripping you up. Their chin, cheeks and nose are the same shape. Reminds me of an article I read recently about why people don't recognize Kara Danvers as Supergirl. It mentioned that just a few cosmetic changes to someone's appearance tend to fool observers.

22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If Victoria knew Weaver was aware he was Rumple and Victoria knew Weaver knew she was Rapunzel, what was the big deal with Rumple calling her Rapunzel in the prison?  

Because that was his official acknowledgement of it after having pretended not to know what she was talking about.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I tried looking at side by side photos, and I just can't make my mind see the similarities.  The episode would probably have been a lot better for people who could see the resemblance.

I think tumblr helped me in this instance. There was a side-by-side comparison of a the Rapunzel actress and the Victoria actress when she was young. This was spec from before the WHook episode, so I'm impressed someone made the connection. 

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8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Disagree. He had been keeping up the pretense of knowing nothing, so this was a big acknowledgement.

To Victoria yes, not the audience. He had handled the dagger and said dearie. It was obvious to the audience he was already awake but not obvious to Victoria apparently.

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Well, I just watched this last night, and as per usual haven't read the comments in the thread yet.  This was a convoluted mess, imo.  I don't even know what to think: except that I'd be okay if Lucy didn't wake up.  Oh, and I hope Rumple gets seriously screwed over.  I don't know how he thinks he's going to get 'back to Belle' when she's dead.  Maybe he means in the after life.  I don't care.  He already got his happy ending and he's still screwing with everyone else's.  Can Gothel lock him in a tower to live alone for the rest of eternity?  That'd be a fitting end for him. 

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4 hours ago, daxx said:

To Victoria yes, not the audience. He had handled the dagger and said dearie. It was obvious to the audience he was already awake but not obvious to Victoria apparently.

I was replying to someone who was saying the opposite of what you just said.

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

He already got his happy ending and he's still screwing with everyone else's.

When is he going to learn that he's not going to get a karmic reward if he pursues the Guardian by shady means? Even Regina could figure that out and told him so immediately.

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On 12/8/2017 at 9:25 PM, cappoe said:

And The Guardian is clearly this flops version of The Savior. I'm sure they were planning on calling it The Savior but because the fans outrage about a new Savior made them call it a different name.

I think so too.  After all, The Guardian is going to 'save' Rumple from the curse of the dagger.

On 12/9/2017 at 4:49 PM, Mabinogia said:

She looks like a poser hippy. Which is about the least intimidating thing possible. Even evil crazy cat lady would be scarier.

Evil Crazy Cat Lady would make a good user name.  Or name for a band.  Just saying.

On 12/9/2017 at 6:33 PM, Camera One said:

I forsee a future episode with more nonsensical universe crossing when we find out Gothel's history with Rumple and how she knows Belle.e us care about Poor Trepunzel and Loserzella.  

Oh God.  Gothel's going to be related to Rumple, isn't she?  That's why she wants to find the guardian: to help him cleave himself of the dagger.  Maybe she's actually Belle resurrected in disguise or his daughter from an alternate timeline or Gideon's daughter or something. 

On 12/11/2017 at 9:58 AM, Mabinogia said:

And that is the problem. In the beginning the Dark Curse was something that was meant to be terrifying, powerful, unique. Now it feels like there must be a Dark Curse sale at Walmart.

There was.  It was on Black Friday.  ;)

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

If Victoria knew Weaver was aware he was Rumple and Victoria knew Weaver knew she was Rapunzel, what was the big deal with Rumple calling her Rapunzel in the prison?  

I think Victoria knew Weaver was aware he was Rumple, and she might have assumed he knew she was Lady Tremaine, but I don't think she knew that anyone knew she was also Rapunzel. 

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13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think so too.  After all, The Guardian is going to 'save' Rumple from the curse of the dagger.

I doubt it, that's a different function from the Savior. They just called it whatever sprang to mind. And the fan outrage was about a misunderstanding where the trailer actually said "A New Hero Rises". "Beauty" would have already been filmed by then.

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5 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I doubt it, that's a different function from the Savior.

How so?  The Savior was supposed to 'bring back everyone's happy endings'.  Wouldn't taking the dagger from Rumple bring back his happy ending with Belle also?  In the case, The Guardian=The Savior.

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1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

How so?  The Savior was supposed to 'bring back everyone's happy endings'.  Wouldn't taking the dagger from Rumple bring back his happy ending with Belle also?  In the case, The Guardian=The Savior.

That's very specific. If Saviors could do that, Rumple could have asked Emma. There's apparently one Guardian who can take the Dagger, and there have been several Saviors. They needed a new kind of magical chosen one, so they gave it a new name. And apparently this Guardian has to be even purer than anyone else we've ever seen. (Time will tell if "Guardian" even makes sense as a name for it; are they supposed to keep the Dagger forever or what?)

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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12 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That's very specific.

So?  The show never said it couldn't be specific.  It actually often was very specific the first 6 seasons, so why shouldn't it be specific with this?

13 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

If Saviors could do that, Rumple could have asked Emma.

Unless he didn't know.  You know - kind of like he didn't even know about such thing as a Guardian until this year.

13 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

There's apparently one Guardian who can take the Dagger,

And there was only one Savior.  Until there wasn't. 

14 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

They needed a new kind of magical chosen one, so they gave it a new name. And apparently this Guardian has to be even purer than anyone else we've ever seen.

New name, yes, but the same kind of magical chosen one.  You mean the Guardian has to be even purer than The Savior who had all the evil sucked out of her while still a fetus? 

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21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Unless he didn't know.  You know - kind of like he didn't even know about such thing as a Guardian until this year.

Then he could still go to Storybrooke and ask Emma.

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And there was only one Savior.  Until there wasn't.

With these ratings, the show isn't going to have time for there to be more than one Guardian.

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

New name, yes, but the same kind of magical chosen one.  You mean the Guardian has to be even purer than The Savior who had all the evil sucked out of her while still a fetus? 

That's what the show has been implying. According to Belle's prophecy, only one person in all the realms is good enough to take the Dagger and free the Dark One, and that purity of heart is what Gothel's been testing for and thought Anastasia ("an innocent, with the purest of hearts" per her mother) might qualify.

As for Emma's dark-ectomy, when has the show ever been consistent about that and what the ramifications of it should logically be? They've pretty much forgotten about it, and Lily. So there shouldn't be anyone purer than she is, but...

The question wasn't whether the Guardian and the Savior are similar. Of course they are. It even looks like Anastasia might have light magic in the promo. It was whether they were going to call it "Savior" and switched to "Guardian" because of fan backlash. Since the episode was already filmed when the trailer came out, that's unlikely. Plus they've never cared what the fans think enough to change the show.

The original variety Savior has pretty much ceased to be relevant, even though you'd think there would be one for this new Curse, but no, apparently a part-time Author like Henry (possibly plus Lucy if she's the Guardian) is good enough. Basically they just needed to make up a new sparkly chosen one that's almost the same as the Savior with the serial numbers filed off to deal with the Dagger, and pulled the name Guardian out of their behinds. Like the whole prophecy we're only just hearing about.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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Couldn't Rumple just kill himself with the dagger? Wasn't that what happened before, when he died/disappeared and there was no Dark One? Or did it make a difference that he was killing Pan while he was at it?

But then we're also back to wondering why he didn't just go live in the World Without Magic, where he wouldn't have power and wouldn't be immortal.

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Quote

Couldn't Rumple just kill himself with the dagger? Wasn't that what happened before, when he died/disappeared and there was no Dark One? Or did it make a difference that he was killing Pan while he was at it?

It would send him back to the Dark One's Vault, where someone could resurrect him.

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1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would send him back to the Dark One's Vault, where someone could resurrect him.

But wasn't he also in the Underworld, since he talked about what it was like there, and it took the blood of someone who'd been there to open the portal? Though someone could still be resurrected from the Underworld, but I guess that took a god.

Has Rumple considered doing something that helps a god? That seems to work.

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1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

Has Rumple considered doing something that helps a god? That seems to work.

If this show goes on for a few more seasons, we can probably write a book on 100 different ways to stop being The Dark One, by the same author of the best-selling 5000 Ways to Get To Baelfire.

Edited by Camera One
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8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If this show goes on for a few more seasons, we can probably write a book on 100 different ways to stop being The Dark One, by the same author of the best-selling 5000 Ways to Get To Baelfire.

My headcanon has always been that he was mostly just wanting to tell himself he was doing something toward getting to Baelfire, but he didn't really want to actually do it. So, he picked the most complicated way possible, with a lot of steps that would take decades to carry out. It's like sharpening all your pencils, alphabetizing all your files, and purging your e-mail in box before you start working. They're all somewhat work-related tasks that make you look busy and make you feel like you're making progress, but you're not getting any closer to finishing your real task. And he's probably the same way with not being the Dark One. He says he wants to be mortal and die and join Belle, but he actually kind of wants to stay alive and keep his power. It's not like Belle is going anywhere, so he's probably making this quest as complicated as possible, doing it the most difficult way, and taking his sweet time at it.

Then again, he did sell out his own great-granddaughter to get a clue about the Guardian, so maybe he's actually serious this time.

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5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Then again, he did sell out his own great-granddaughter to get a clue about the Guardian, so maybe he's actually serious this time.

LOL, this is what passes for selfless martyr on this show.

My headcanon is similar to yours.  He was dilly-dallying and enjoying every moment of manipulating the hell out of everyone, in the name of his son.

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9 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

You actually can't work while you're weighed down by an email inbox that's full of crap, so that last isn't a great example.

It depends on what you're doing. If the task you need to do has absolutely nothing to do with your e-mail, it's work-related procrastination. It may eventually help you in the long run to clean out your in-box, but it's unnecessary delay unless you're doing a task related to needing to find something in your inbox. Just like how Rumple only really needed to do all the stuff he did if the only way to get to Bae was the Dark Curse, but there were other easier ways, which meant he was doing work-related procrastination. (And if you can't actually work while weighed down with an inbox full of crap, I'd never have accomplished anything, ever.)

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23 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Then he could still go to Storybrooke and ask Emma.

Not according to Rongina.

23 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

The question wasn't whether the Guardian and the Savior are similar.

Actually, there was no question.  There was only an opinion submitted with which I agreed.  You obviously disagree.  And that's fine.  But there was never any question for or from me. 

14 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

You actually can't work while you're weighed down by an email inbox that's full of crap, so that last isn't a great example.

Sure you can.  You can close your email program and ignore it all to focus on the other task at hand.

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On 12/12/2017 at 9:18 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

You know you have a problem when everyone else is more interesting than your main character.

But none of the main characters are interesting (except maybe Ivy, and that's on the actress, not A&E).

16 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

You actually can't work while you're weighed down by an email inbox that's full of crap, so that last isn't a great example.

"I can't go any faster, there's a whiteboard on my tail!"
From "The Lobster eQuaddrille"

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5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

But none of the main characters are interesting (except maybe Ivy, and that's on the actress, not A&E).

"I can't go any faster, there's a whiteboard on my tail!"
From "The Lobster eQuaddrille"

I found Tiana/Sabine interesting in her centric episode. Unfortunately, just as I predicted, she's been peripheral since then.

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8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not according to Rongina.

Rumple found out about the Guardian before succumbing to this curse. The current speculation is that they can't contact Storybrooke because time travel is part of the curse, but that presumably wouldn't have been the case until it was cast and they were sent backward in time. (tenses are confusing with time travel, but you know what I mean)

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Actually, there was no question.  There was only an opinion submitted with which I agreed.  You obviously disagree.  And that's fine.  But there was never any question for or from me.

I didn't mean that you were asking a question. I meant in the sense that whatever is being discussed at the moment is said to be "in question".

The episode was already filmed when the trailer was released, and we all know the writers don't care enough about us fans to change things in any case. Especially the small number of fans who reacted negatively when they thought the trailer said "Savior" and it actually didn't. They don't even care when we get outraged in droves and yell at them on Twitter about more important things like the moral inconsistencies, dubious sexual consent and continuity errors of the show. I'm actually surprised you would think the writers care what we think given your criticisms of them in the past; I thought you were as cynical about them as I am, or even more so.

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sure you can.  You can close your email program and ignore it all to focus on the other task at hand.

I'm envisioning a job like my latest one, where the email inbox is directly related to the task at hand (given that Shanna Marie talked about a scenario where the purging was a "work-related task"); where one must be on the lookout for updates by email from one's supervisors and co-workers about what one is actually supposed to be doing at any given moment, and report to them as well. It was a months-long project where the mission statement was subject to revision every so often by a higher department. Also, when we were finished with our own assigned pages, or at least our current drafts of them, we would send them to our co-workers for proofreading, and receive theirs for proofreading, before using the publication tool. If my inbox were full of bolded unread junk emails and general University news (you'd be surprised how much news there is piling up every day), I would likely miss something important.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

But none of the main characters are interesting (except maybe Ivy, and that's on the actress, not A&E).

Some of them seemed interesting at first. Ivy was gray then her soul turned pitch black overnight. Alice had a lot of mystery, but her quest to find her father was anticlimactic. She's mainly just there to give WHook something to do. The Witch was intriguing as Victoria's prisoner, but now she's just your generic rapist witch we've seen before with no strong motivations.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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It's no surprise viewers are bored when you can sum up the entire present-day storyline in this episode in two sentences.  Why did Victoria need Weaver to chauffeur her to the Mausoleum anyway?  What was her back-up plan if she didn't catch Jacinda kissing Nick on camera?  What was her back-up plan if Lucy didn't suddenly lose all belief?  Lucy finally got cold, hard confirmation of her hypothesis when Victoria showed her the storybook.  If that doesn't spike belief, I don't know what would.  At least the flashback story had some narrative drive while in the present-day, we had no idea what Victoria was up to until the end.

Edited by Camera One
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5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's no surprise viewers are bored when you can sum up the entire present-day storyline in this episode in two sentences.  Why did Victoria need Weaver to chauffeur her to the Mausoleum anyway?  What was her back-up plan if she didn't catch Jacinda kissing Nick on camera?  What was her back-up plan if Lucy didn't suddenly lose all belief?  Lucy finally got cold, hard confirmation of her hypothesis when Victoria showed her the storybook.  If that doesn't spike belief, I don't know what would.  At least the flashback story had some narrative drive while in the present-day, we had no idea what Victoria was up to until the end.

I guess it wasn't so much that she had to lose all belief but a critical one like "Henry and my mom and I will be together"? But it was incredibly convenient for Victoria that she guessed right that Nick and Jacinda would do something if they were alone together, and that Lucy didn't respond to seeing that one kiss by continuing to insist everything would work out in the end (given the positive trend of being reunited with her mom). It's not the only show that's relied on this near-clairvoyant ability of the villains to predict what other characters will do and feel. In real life, people are much harder to anticipate unless you know them inside and out. This was my main problem with Captain America: Civil War. Everything hinged on Cap and Tony reacting *exactly* as Zemo wanted them to. It's like he/Victoria had a copy of the script.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:07 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

The episode was already filmed when the trailer was released, and we all know the writers don't care enough about us fans to change things in any case. Especially the small number of fans who reacted negatively when they thought the trailer said "Savior" and it actually didn't. They don't even care when we get outraged in droves and yell at them on Twitter about more important things like the moral inconsistencies, dubious sexual consent and continuity errors of the show. I'm actually surprised you would think the writers care what we think given your criticisms of them in the past; I thought you were as cynical about them as I am, or even more so.

I think you and I are talking about two different things here, because to be honest, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.  My discussion of 'Savior vs.  Guardian' is strictly limited to what I see on screen and have read in this forum.  If there was backlash from other fans elsewhere, I have no idea about that, nor do I really care.  I never said, or even implied as far as I remember, that the writers would care about what fans think re: the Guardian vs. Savior.  I'm not even sure what that has to do with my original comment.  It was My Opinion and My Opinion Only that this years Guardian was pretty much the same thing as previous year's Savior.  Because that's how it appears to me, based on what I have observed in the Show. 

On 12/14/2017 at 11:07 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

If my inbox were full of bolded unread junk emails and general University news (you'd be surprised how much news there is piling up every day), I would likely miss something important.

You do know that's what the Spam folder and Block function are for?  If my inbox was so full of bolded unread junk emails that it would make me miss some important work related time-sensitive communication, I would ask for some help from the IT department on setting up filters, etc. 

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I have to confess that I don't really mind this episode or Rapunzel's backstory. I still don't care for Victoria, but the flashbacks do a good job of explaining why Rapunzel would be a little miffed at certain members of her family. (Which, you know, becomes reason for cold-blooded murder somehow.) I can sympathize with Rapunzel to an extent, but I don't believe she was pushed enough over the edge to poison an innocent person. Angry enough to take revenge another way maybe, but I feel like this episode tries to bridge gap between Rapunzel and Lady Tremaine, and that doesn't really work. They're too different to be believable as the same person. 

It's a halfway decent fairy tale character backstory, which became fewer and further between in later seasons. It's nice to finally have a more traditional OUAT "twist on a known story" episode that doesn't suck all the way through. 

I can't speak for the present day scenes. I remember them sucking as much as the rest of S7.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I don't feel like watching this episode.  I still can't reconcile Rapunzel and Victoria/Lady Tremaine as the same person, and I disliked this flashback story (and the present-day story was even worse). 

There were more creative ways to give a new spin on Rapunzel than to make her into a jealous wife who takes out her anger on her kids and murders her husband's new wife and lives on to murder Cinderella's fairy godmother in cold blood. 

They could have used other random stories for this exact same plot.  Mulan comes back from the war to find her fiancé married someone else, so she kills her rival and becomes Lady Tremaine.  Edwina Dantes comes back from prison to find her fiancé had married someone else, so she kills her rival and becomes Lady Tremaine.  Belle comes back from the Beast's castle to find her fiancé had married someone else, so she kills her rival and becomes Lady Tremaine.  Dorothy comes back from Oz to find her fiancé had married someone else, so she kills her rival and becomes Lady Tremaine.  Same difference.

I'll try to have it on in the background tomorrow while getting paperwork done.

On 12/14/2017 at 8:09 PM, KingOfHearts said:

but now she's just your generic rapist witch 

That did make me laugh.  I guess only viewers of this show would consider that to be generic, LOL.

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8 hours ago, Camera One said:

There were more creative ways to give a new spin on Rapunzel than to make her into a jealous wife who takes out her anger on her kids and murders her husband's new wife and lives on to murder Cinderella's fairy godmother in cold blood. 

It would've helped tremendously if Victoria wasn't such a typical OUAT villain so keen on murdering innocents in coldblood. (She's really not much better than Jacinda, is she? That family almost has as many issues as the Mills.) You're not wrong that it didn't have to be Rapunzel. She could've been Moana shipwrecked on a deserted island and it wouldn't have changed much. Tremaine being the jealous wife with an actual reason for being that way isn't a bad concept.

S6 Tremaine was a coldblooded murderer too, but we were never meant to feel sorry for her. She was a two-dimensional villain without a clear backstory. That was fine, but she was also a completely different character. Victoria, by contrast, was a freaking candidate for the pure-hearted Guardian until she did the only thing in the OUAT universe that can turn someone dark - kill someone. (Remember when that happened to Snow? Just comparing the two shows you how messed up this show is.) These writers have no idea what drives people to kill or become psychopaths. This isn't a video game where stabbing someone is just a rude thing to do. It's supposed to be about real people with real emotions and moral dilemmas. Even fairy tales, as criticized as they are, are more grounded in reality than this show.

I really hate that Tremaine killed the fairy godmother. It's such a cheap way to show she's the bad guy. Sometimes the greatest villains are ones that see the value in using the rules to control people, rather than haphazardly breaking the rules to get what they want in the short term. Mayor Mills was even scarier than the Evil Queen at times because we meet people like her in our own lives. You were never sure what she was up to because she could play the game so well. When she did do something evil, like abduct or kill someone, she could cover her tracks and put the blame on someone else. It wasn't a matter of raw power, but of cleverness and strategic manipulation. A more complex Tremaine with realistic motives would fit the Mayor Mills role more than the Evil Queen role. She's all about reputation and social climbing, not murdering by impulse. 

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2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

S6 Tremaine was a coldblooded murderer too, but we were never meant to feel sorry for her. She was a two-dimensional villain without a clear backstory. That was fine, but she was also a completely different character. Victoria, by contrast, was a freaking candidate for the pure-hearted Guardian

You raised a good point for one of the biggest reasons Victoria's backstory didn't work.  It was playing in extremes - possibly pure heart candidate turned extreme murderer with no remorse, all done with zero development.  

The S6 Lady Tremaine could have been a formidable force without magic or murder in Season 7.  

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24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

You raised a good point for one of the biggest reasons Victoria's backstory didn't work.  It was playing in extremes - possibly pure heart candidate turned extreme murderer with no remorse, all done with zero development.  

I think her backstory would have worked for a Hook-like villain, someone who might have gone off the rails a bit but whose evil was mostly focused (well, until the season 6 retcon) on people who had it coming, who'd wronged him. I think I might turn into something of a villain if I'd sacrificed myself to give my family a better life, escaped just six years later, and found that my husband had already remarried -- and then he didn't seem to give a moment's pause to what he should do and had me live in a cottage and work as a servant in their house while he stayed with his second wife in the manor I got him, and Wife 2 also didn't seem to have given it all a second thought and acted like she was doing me a favor by saying I could have taken my daughter's birthday off. That poison that didn't kill but only forced them to stay apart was a somewhat reasonable response. I could even see her being mad enough at her husband when he saved the stepdaughter instead of his own daughter to have grown bitter and maybe even have arranged for his death. I could certainly see her growing bitter and making selfish decisions, since sacrificing for others only brought her pain (ah, this show). But casual, callous murder of random people? No.

The thing with Drizella is even more bizarre. She was four when Rapunzel was separated from her family. Rapunzel flat-out ignored her when she returned. But then she hates her daughter for not having re-bonded with her when she was ignoring her? And they needed to have set up her obsession with Anastasia better, like maybe she was the one member of her family who came to live with her when she returned while the rest of them were more into Wife 2.

This episode blows any attempt at a timeline apart. It has to take place before Alice's birth, since at the end of the episode Gothel gets put in the tower. Then enough time has to pass for WRegina, who's in an entirely different world, to have heard legends about the witch in the tower. Drizella is ten when Rapunzel returns home and Ella looked at least 14, then there's however many years before Marcus gave up on finding the vanished wife 2 and remarried Rapunzel, and then however many years before WHook shows up at the tower, so Ella's got to be at least 17 by the time Alice is born, if not older, and Drizella must be at least 13. Alice is the same age as Emma, since she was born right around the time the curse would have been cast. Henry is married to a woman who's just about old enough to be his grandmother. The handwave that Alice spent time in other worlds where time doesn't pass doesn't work if Ella and Drizella haven't aged, either. And yet Rapunzel aged into a different actress and WHook aged while bringing up Alice, so it's not like time was frozen in that world.

In the present, Lucy didn't believe too deeply if her belief could be destroyed by seeing out-of-context video of a kiss (that wasn't even a real, mutual kiss). She's like all those people in Hallmark movies who break off their engagement when they see their fiance walking with another woman (who turns out to be his sister).

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42 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think I might turn into something of a villain if I'd sacrificed myself to give my family a better life, escaped just six years later, and found that my husband had already remarried

I think Rapunzel's hatred for Wife 2 is believable. That whole situation just sucked. 

Villains who kill because they feel it's necessary to carry out their plans are more palatable than those who just murder for funsies. (I'm looking at you, Regina and Rumple.) Rapunzel's motives made sense. She had no reason to murder the Fairy Godmother, though. It didn't support the plot or really serve the story in any way, other than getting the fairy out of the picture and making Tremaine look so evil. The writers already killed off the Fairy Godmother the first time they did Cinderella, so why did they do it again? Do they just hate the character?

The Fairy Godmother must've been pretty naive if she let Jacinda go to the ball without realizing she was off to murder the prince.

It all just feels like the writers were to trying to preserve the Cinderella fairy tale while doing their own "twist". They wanted Tremaine to be misunderstood, Ivy to be the real Big Bad, and for it to all connect to Rapunzel and Mother Gothel. It's overly complicated and none of it makes any sense. There's too many moving parts for what could be a lot simpler if the writers knew what their plan was from the first episode. It's almost like they changed their minds halfway through the season but realized they screwed up at the same time.

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I don't know what it is with this show.  I still don't like this episode, but I was pretty engaged watching it.  I guess I'm easily seduced by fairy tales and fantasy elements.

Given the backstory between Tremaine and Gothel, why the heck would she be working with Gothel to resurrect Anastasia?  Couldn't Victoria have easily broken Lucy's belief sometime in the last eight episodes, or before Henry came to Hyperion Heights?  It seriously didn't take much.  Why didn't Victoria insert Nick into the picture earlier?  

Most of my notes this time were similar to my thoughts the first-time around so I won't repeat them.  None of them were explained in the rest of the season.  For example:

Spoiler

Now we know they never clarified what Drizella knew or didn't know about Gothel's involvement with her mother, or with trying to trap Anastasia in the tower.  She should have known, which makes her affiliation with Gothel even more stupid.

We also never got a flashback explaining how both Gothel and Tremaine in the Disenchanted Forest knew about Belle, and his quest to rid himself of the dagger.  Did he put out a personal ad in the Inter-realm News Bulletin or something?  

Drizella's skirt was so short that it was distracting.

I agree with the point that Blond Lady with Long Hair (I refuse to call her Rapunzel)'s negative feelings towards her husband and new wife were sort of justified.  And Lady Tremaine would have worked better if she only sought revenge on specific people who wronged her in a big way, instead of fairy godmothers and princes who rejected her daughter.  You could hand-wave that she thought the mushroom would only send Cecilia away, but a "good" person doing something in anger would still have lingering regret and guilt over what she did, but nope, she became the psychotically single-minded.  

So first, she needed the heart of the truest believer to resurrect Anastasia, and now she needed the Tear of Lost Belief or whatever the heck that was.  Wasn't it more the Tear of Lost HOPE™ instead of Belief?  Because knowing hearing her fairy tale theory confirmed only strengthens Lucy's belief. 

Ironically, this episode was the first one where I thought the actress who played Victoria did a better job. 

Why didn't kickass Rapunzel jump into the water to rescue Anastasia?  I thought she would do anything for family.

The actress who played Rapunzel was solid.  I am thinking that building Season 7 around the Rapunzel story might have worked better.  Maybe Henry travels to a new land and finds Rapunzel and Lucy is their daughter?  Though I don't know if the adult Henry would have any chemistry with Rapunzel.

No Roni/Regina or Henry.  Did anyone miss them?

Edited by Camera One
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2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I agree with the point that Blond Lady with Long Hair (I refuse to call her Rapunzel)'s negative feelings towards her husband and new wife were sort of justified.  And Lady Tremaine would have worked better if she only sought revenge on specific people who wronged her in a big way, instead of fairy godmothers and princes who rejected her daughter.  You could hand-wave that she thought the mushroom would only send Cecilia away, but a "good" person doing something in anger would still have lingering regret and guilt over what she did, but nope, she became the psychotically single-minded.  

It's like the gap between Lt. Jones being angry at the king whose orders that might have been aimed at genocide got his brother killed and full-on pirate bully. Future Lady Tremaine might have been justified in doing something to keep the other woman away from her husband, but since she was supposedly a good person, she should have felt at least a little bad when seeing her husband searching for his missing wife or her daughters feeling abandoned. And the leap to her later evil makes no sense.

I think it doesn't help that they did the whole backstory in one episode. It's like if they'd shown everything in Regina's life from her relationship with Daniel and his death to her killing Leopold and then sending Snow away all in one episode. If they'd handled it more like Regina and had spread it over multiple episodes so it showed a gradual slope, it might have worked better. And, as with most things in this season, they didn't establish a baseline. We didn't see her with her family in happier circumstances before everything fell apart, so we didn't see her relationship with her daughters or husband.

I don't much mind them turning Rapunzel into a villain. What I do mind is them using imagery from Tangled with a Rapunzel who turns into a villain. She's wearing what's essentially the Tangled costume, and they used the same lanterns. I'm surprised Disney let them do it, since they were launching a Tangled TV series.

I still don't get why Cecelia didn't take her daughter with her when she left. How did they figure out that she was poisoned when he just about keeled over when they got close? How did she know that going away would save him? If she knew she'd been poisoned, did she suspect Wife 1, and if so, why would she leave her daughter with her? If they knew it was poison, then why did Ella think her mother abandoned her without realizing why she left?

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Drizella's skirt was so short that it was distracting.

It was almost as bad as the boobs we usually get on this show. Are legs this season's boobs?

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I suppose Cecilia might have thought she could infect her daughter too or she felt Ella was safer with Marcus since she was on the run?  That's a good point of why she didn't take her daughter with her, and the question of how they knew she was poisoned.  Jacinda knew of the mark on her stepfather's wrist.  But did he not notice that mark on Cecilia?   If he did, he would have told Jacinda and it wouldn't make sense for Jacinda to assume her mother just ran off and abandoned her.  How did Cecilia know the source of the poison was in Wonderland?  Cecilia taking such drastic steps as running away suggested she didn't know what was ailing her, but the fact that she went directly to Wonderland suggested she did know, which doesn't explain why she left Ella with no explanation considering the poisoned heart was against Marcus, not Ella.  Unless the poisoned heart could have affected Ella too if Cecilia touched her?  There were a lot of missing pieces in the story. 

Another weird thing with this backstory is Rapunzel's rejection of Drizella.  So in the flashback, Rapunzel wanted Drizella's love and approval and was hurt that she didn't have it.  Rapunzel expressed to Marcus that she felt Drizella slipping away from her and it looked like she still wanted Drizella's love.  Yet later on, it's Drizella who was desperate for her mother Lady Tremaine's approval, who acted like she was the scum of the earth.  If Younger Drizella never really accepted her biological mother, then why was she clinging on to her mother as an adult craving attention and validation?  As discussed in this thread, when did Drizella start hating on Ella, when Drizella felt Ella and Cecilia were more family than Rapunzel?  And when/why did Rapunzel get so obsessed with social stature and marrying Drizella off to the King's sons?  She already had Cecilia's famly money.

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20 hours ago, Camera One said:

I suppose Cecilia might have thought she could infect her daughter too or she felt Ella was safer with Marcus since she was on the run?  That's a good point of why she didn't take her daughter with her, and the question of how they knew she was poisoned.  Jacinda knew of the mark on her stepfather's wrist.  But did he not notice that mark on Cecilia?   If he did, he would have told Jacinda and it wouldn't make sense for Jacinda to assume her mother just ran off and abandoned her.  How did Cecilia know the source of the poison was in Wonderland?  Cecilia taking such drastic steps as running away suggested she didn't know what was ailing her, but the fact that she went directly to Wonderland suggested she did know, which doesn't explain why she left Ella with no explanation considering the poisoned heart was against Marcus, not Ella.  Unless the poisoned heart could have affected Ella too if Cecilia touched her?  There were a lot of missing pieces in the story. 

The big question is how much they knew, and when. Ella recognized Alice's mark from her father having one, but she didn't know what it meant, and she thought her mother just stopped loving them, so she didn't know about the poison. The options seem to be:

  1. Cecilia didn't know about the poison, just that being around her husband made him sick, so she ran to Wonderland as a way of getting away from him where he wouldn't be able to find her. But that means she made him go through the ambiguity of a missing wife all over again, and she left her daughter behind. Ella looked like she was in her teens, and they couldn't have been married more than six years, so surely Ella had a deeper bond with her mother than with her stepfather. I can't think of a reason for leaving her behind.
  2. Cecilia did know about the poison and went to Wonderland to get a cure, but she didn't tell her husband where she was going or why. But that means she was taking a chance that he wouldn't move on while she was missing (he'd done it before), and she was leaving her daughter behind. If she suspected Rapunzel of being the poisoner, she was leaving her daughter in danger.
  3. Cecilia knew about the poison and told her husband where she was going and why, but he didn't tell the children. Which made her daughter feel abandoned because she thought she'd been rejected, since she didn't know why her mother left.
20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Another weird thing with this backstory is Rapunzel's rejection of Drizella.  So in the flashback, Rapunzel wanted Drizella's love and approval and was hurt that she didn't have it.  Rapunzel expressed to Marcus that she felt Drizella slipping away from her and it looked like she still wanted Drizella's love.  Yet later on, it's Drizella who was desperate for her mother Lady Tremaine's approval, who acted like she was the scum of the earth.  If Younger Drizella never really accepted her biological mother, then why was she clinging on to her mother as an adult craving attention and validation? 

The really weird thing is that Rapunzel rejected Drizella the moment she returned, before she'd even had a chance to see that her daughter had taken to Cecilia as a mother. It does take Drizella a split second longer than Anastasia to recognize her (understandable, since she was four the last time she saw her), but Rapunzel goes straight to Anastasia, ignoring Drizella, and the camera even zooms in and lingers on Drizella's hurt and disappointed face, so it wasn't just bad blocking. So, Lady Tremaine hates her younger daughter and treats her like scum for not being close to her when she, herself, snubbed her and acted like she wanted nothing to do with her. It's on the adult to reach out to the kid and to make the effort, and it didn't look like she tried hard at all.

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

And when/why did Rapunzel get so obsessed with social stature and marrying Drizella off to the King's sons?  She already had Cecilia's famly money.

Was it Cecilia's family's money? I was under the impression that they got the money as part of Rapunzel's bargain with Gothel to make things better for her family. Or was the way of making things better for Marcus to marry someone with money? If Rapunzel became "Lady Tremaine" from being married to Marcus, the title would have had to be his and not something he got through marriage. (Then again, given the nonsense around Tiana's position, it's possible that the writers meant that and got it wrong.) If it's Cecilia's family money, then at least that does put us closer to the Cinderella story, where it's Ella's house and money but she's treated like a servant in her own home. As it is, making Lady Tremaine's husband be Cinderella's stepfather removes her from any right to the home.

I figure that since being unselfish backfired on Rapunzel so badly, she just became greedy and selfish, wanting all the money and power she could get. After all, if she'd had money and power to begin with, none of this wouldn't have happened. She's making sure she'll never have to beg for turnips again.

In the present-day story, I was wondering about the evidence locker being this curse's equivalent to Gold's store, with all the items from their fairy tale lives in there. It happened in curse one because Rumple pretty much wrote the curse (retcons aside, and I think he did modify it), so he rigged it to make sure he got everything he wanted. But this isn't his curse and he had no role in it, so why would Drizella and Gothel's curse give Rumple all the stuff?

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21 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

In the present-day story, I was wondering about the evidence locker being this curse's equivalent to Gold's store, with all the items from their fairy tale lives in there. It happened in curse one because Rumple pretty much wrote the curse (retcons aside, and I think he did modify it), so he rigged it to make sure he got everything he wanted.

Plus the Hyperion Heights police force is part of the Seattle police department, so individual detectives wouldn't have their own personal storage locker for evidence that should be accessible to anyone with clearance in the police department.  Not to mention shoddy security such as a fire alarm allowing all the secure evidence room doors to open.  

Quote

But this isn't his curse and he had no role in it, so why would Drizella and Gothel's curse give Rumple all the stuff?

LOL.  So true.  Unless we're supposed to believe he "collected" all of this during his week or two of remembering.  Why would he waste his time trying to find Whook's hook?  Wasn't he busy enough letting everyone in the neighborhood handle his Dagger to see if they get to be his special Guardian?

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2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Was it Cecilia's family's money? I was under the impression that they got the money as part of Rapunzel's bargain with Gothel to make things better for her family. Or was the way of making things better for Marcus to marry someone with money? If Rapunzel became "Lady Tremaine" from being married to Marcus, the title would have had to be his and not something he got through marriage. (Then again, given the nonsense around Tiana's position, it's possible that the writers meant that and got it wrong.)

You could be right.  I checked the script again, and Marcus was Tremaine's last name.  I assumed it was Cecilia's family's manor, since she was so polished and seemed upper crust.  Whereas Marcus had zero money before as a simple tailor.  They didn't make it clear how Gothel made his life comfortable.  How did he get his title?  I guess Gothel could have magicked him a title and a ton of cash or even a manor.  It's unclear the extent of her magical powers.  She makes potions that anyone can throw.

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, Lady Tremaine hates her younger daughter and treats her like scum for not being close to her when she, herself, snubbed her and acted like she wanted nothing to do with her. It's on the adult to reach out to the kid and to make the effort, and it didn't look like she tried hard at all.

There was a dichotomy between the first reunion scene when Rapunzel didn't even go to hug Drizella, and the later scene where Rapunzel is upset because Drizella didn't seem happy at her birthday gift.  I think we're meant to believe that Rapunzel did make an effort, but it was snubbed by Drizella.  But there didn't seem to be any self awareness on Rapunzel's part about that initial reunion.  So was it unintentional on her part?  It made zero sense for her to ignore her younger daughter considering we're supposed to believe she's all about family and she yelled both daughter's name from the tower window, not just her favorite.

All this still doesn't explain why Young Drizella didn't care about Rapunzel's love and liked Ella, but Older Drizella desperately needed her validation and hated Ella.  It's like Younger and Older Drizella were two different characters, just like Rapunzel and Lady Tremaine were two different characters.

I can also imagine A&E would explain that Lady Tremaine killed indiscriminately because she was desperate to resurrect Anastasia.  But that doesn't explain why she seemed to enjoy murdering.

Someone above mentioned how Anastasia was pronounced differently.  The weird thing is Rapunzel ("Ana-stay-sia") and Victoria pronounced the name differently ("Ana-stash-ia")... aren't they supposed to be the same person, LOL?

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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

They didn't make it clear how Gothel made his life comfortable.  How did he get his title?  I guess Gothel could have magicked him a title and a ton of cash or even a manor.

That was what I assume happened. Rapunzel seemed to know where she was going when she headed there (or was she following the lanterns?). And didn't Gothel goad Rapunzel about how she earned a good life for him?

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

There was a dichotomy between the first reunion scene when Rapunzel didn't even go to hug Drizella, and the later scene where Rapunzel is upset because Drizella didn't seem happy at her birthday gift.  I think we're meant to believe that Rapunzel did make an effort, but it was snubbed by Drizella. 

That's where they're hampered by doing the entire backstory in one episode. We didn't see what kind of relationship Rapunzel and Drizella had before she was trapped. We didn't see Rapunzel trying to re-establish a relationship with her daughters. We didn't see the decision-making process of how they were going to handle things -- did Marcus even consider that his first wife being alive meant his second marriage was invalid? Who decided that Rapunzel would be a servant and live in a cottage on the property instead of in the home?

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

All this still doesn't explain why Young Drizella didn't care about Rapunzel's love and liked Ella, but Older Drizella desperately needed her validation and hated Ella.  It's like Younger and Older Drizella were two different characters, just like Rapunzel and Lady Tremaine were two different characters.

This is also something we needed to see. I'd imagine it happened in the aftermath of Anastasia's death. Having the "favorite" dead and still not being able to get any affection might have turned her more bitter. Still not toward murder. It makes sense for Drizella to resent her mother (and want validation at the same time), but the full-on evil is a leap. Ditto with Lady Tremaine. You can kind of see where she might have started sliding downhill after her daughter's death and started resenting her husband, Ella, and Drizella. Gleeful murder and all-purpose evil require a huge leap.

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25 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Who decided that Rapunzel would be a servant and live in a cottage on the property instead of in the home?

They were bending over backwards to explain why Rapunzel was tempted to turn evil.  

I assumed they wanted to give Rapunzel her privacy and she would still be able to see the girls all the time.  Having her work as a servant was way overboard, though.  They didn't even need that to have Rapunzel spike Cecilia's drink.

Spoiler

I totally forgot why Gothel even needed The Guardian in the first place.  What a waste of time to "test" this one woman over and over again, and then have to start over.  Gothel's not the brightest berry in the bush.  She was impressed that Rapunzel was sacrificing herself for her family at the beginning unlike the other wretched greedy humans, but then Gothel proceeded to team up with Drizella, a selfish human, along with a Coven of girls she chose by having them fight each other to the death.  Her villainy motivations  *really* come together in the end... not.

Regarding this:

Quote

That's where they're hampered by doing the entire backstory in one episode.

I wonder if by this point, they had already decided to phase out Victoria, so they needed to get all the exposition done at once.  Or was this their plan all along, regardless.  I am seriously curious how their plans changed through the course of filming... did they start changing their minds before the premiere aired?  after the response from the first two episodes?  after the response from the fifth or sixth episode?  Because this was the ninth. 

I'd imagine they would have needed to show how Anastasia died at this point, so they needed to also show Rapunzel in her tower.  How would you have broken down their flashbacks.  Should this episode have been only showing Marcus, Rapunzel, Drizella and Anastasia pre-Gothel, and ending with Rapunzel getting trapped in the tower.  Or maybe it should also show how Marcus met Cecilia and Ella?  Or should that have been a separate flashback?  Where would they end it?

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12 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'd imagine they would have needed to show how Anastasia died at this point, so they needed to also show Rapunzel in her tower.  How would you have broken down their flashbacks.  Should this episode have been only showing Marcus, Rapunzel, Drizella and Anastasia pre-Gothel, and ending with Rapunzel getting trapped in the tower.  Or maybe it should also show how Marcus met Cecilia and Ella?  Or should that have been a separate flashback?  Where would they end it?

This isn't really taking into consideration practical considerations, like how these flashbacks would line up with present-day stories or what other flashbacks would have been deleted to make room for these. I'm just looking at what parts of the story we really needed to see to get any kind of impact.

So, I think maybe we needed an episode about Rapunzel being put in the tower, then her escape and return, maybe her trying to re-bond with Drizella and Anastasia being the only member of her family to truly embrace her. Possibly get into some of the decision-making process about the awkward family situation and what to do with her -- did Marcus just shrug and go "welp, sorry, moved on," did Cecilia feel like her marriage was invalid if his first wife was still alive, did Rapunzel go all self-sacrificial and go "oh, don't mind me, I'll just live over here in the cottage." I think we needed to see some of that to get a sense of the situation. I think I'd also put the start of the story with them at home. Them in a wagon traveling didn't make a lot of sense. If he's a tailor, would they have taken business trips with the whole family? Were they homeless and looking for a place to settle? If they were poor and couldn't feed themselves, how did they have a horse? It would have worked better if we'd seen the family living together in a hovel, and then Rapunzel headed out to scavenge some food. I guess them being away from home was meant to explain why Marcus didn't go looking for her and didn't find her, but he knew the area where she disappeared. Did he never notice the tower? Him just wandering around, shouting her name, should have got her attention.

Then an episode about her alienation and growing bitterness, showing Drizella growing away from her, leading up to the party and the poisoning. Maybe fit the aftermath of the poisoning in here, with Cecilia's decision to run off -- show it rather than telling about it -- and Marcus and Rapunzel getting back together. Maybe Drizella tries to cozy up to her mother in Cecilia's absence, but her mother has already given up on her and resents her. This is the one that would show Anastasia's death and trapping Gothel in the tower.

And then we needed to see the further slide and transition from Rapunzel to Lady Tremaine, the growing bitterness toward the husband and remaining daughters, with the arrangement of his death and turning Ella into a servant. That could also show Drizella turning on Ella in an attempt to get her mother's attention and realizing that even with Anastasia dead, she still can't be the favored child. They could have done things out of order and put this one first, since it would use the adult actors and would also have worked as an Ella flashback.

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

I wonder if by this point, they had already decided to phase out Victoria, so they needed to get all the exposition done at once.  Or was this their plan all along, regardless.  I am seriously curious how their plans changed through the course of filming... did they start changing their minds before the premiere aired?  after the response from the first two episodes?  after the response from the fifth or sixth episode? 

It's possible that if they'd planned for Victoria to be the main villain, they'd have done more of this backstory earlier. Then again, at this point in the series they'd become totally hung up on the "SURPRISE!" method of storytelling, so the whole point was the "AHA!" moment of revealing that Lady Tremaine was Rapunzel, and they wouldn't have wanted to give that away any sooner. Never mind that it doesn't actually change anything or make you see the story any differently. You don't go back to the earlier episodes and rewatch with the awareness of who she really is to see how that changes your perception. It's not like you look at Lady Tremaine's actions and think, "Oh, now that I know she's Rapunzel, that totally makes sense." The one thing that might have fit -- the fact that she now has short, brown hair and talks about not liking magic because power can be taken away from you -- turns out not to have actually meant anything. She never had Tangled-like magical hair that turned short and brown and non-magical when it was cut off.

How this all fits into the way flashbacks were handled in this season is more of an "All Seasons" topic, and I'm still processing some thoughts there.

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I swear, what is it with Once villains having legit reasons to be upset, and people to be pissed at, and yet they get hung up on totally random things and obsess over getting revenge on people that are at most tangentially involved in their problems. This episode is at least a bit more engaging than the last few, but like most of this season, it just feels like a bunch of ideas that the show did already, but better.

As much as I want Murderella on my screen as little as possible, those flashbacks do make me wonder more about the family dynamics at play here, and how they got from there to where we see them now, as it seems like it could actually get pretty interesting if they bothered to explore it. I mean, Rapunzel gives up everything so her family can get a nice house or whatever, and then her husband looks at her for...what a few weeks? Before he moved onto wife number two? If we give him the benefit of the doubt, that he really thought Rapunzel was dead and fell in love with Cecilia, and when she got back, he was thrilled that she was alive, but was in love with someone else. Its a super awkward hard situation, and I dont blame Rapunzel for being heart broken, but then things get weird. Marcus seemed super disinterested in her, and then when Cecilia left, he apparently was ready to get back with her right away, but his true love heart was broken when Cecilia left, and he went after her? What is the order of events? And it seems like the three girls were really close as kids, but we never get Ella being too sad about Anastasia or any angst about Marcus saving her instead of Anastasia, except for that one little bit when she sees her body, and we never get the vibe that Ella and Drizella were loved each other in any of their pre curse interactions, even though they seemed close as kids, which is too bad because Ella being saddened by her one beloved sisters turn to evil could be really interesting, but probably too complex of an emotion for her anyway. It also seems like Drizella was really close with Cecelia, who it seems like really raised her, and maybe they could go into her mom issues not just being about a mom who she was never enough for, but a step mom who left her behind? And was Rapunzel just straight up working for them?! Cecelia said that she should have taken the day off, but does that imply that she had days ON? Was she the maid? What the fuck? Really, none of the adults come off super awesome here. Cecelia is probably the best, but of she was cool with the maid thing, thats messed the hell up.

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