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S03.E21: Snow Drifts/S03.E22: There's No Place Like Home

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If we're splitting hairs, Emma was never told not to bring Marian to the future. She was told not to change the past.

 

I suppose the problem is that Emma could have changed the past, if Marian had ended up not being executed.  What if she had somehow escaped execution and then she went and did something important later on with a lot of ramifications? 

 

But having said that, I don't think badly of Emma for saving Marion.  It was unwise, but it shows sometimes she doesn't act as rationally as her normally controlled demeanor suggests.  She's a "hero" and a hero finds it hard to let someone innocent die.  

 

So I am assuming Robin Hood does not know that Marion was captured by the Evil Queen?  Even if he falls out of love with Marion, I don't see how he can see Regina the same way knowing she condemned Marion to death.  Though you'd think he would have problems since he knew that as the Evil Queen, Regina murdered entire villages.  Or did he not know that?  

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       These writers are all over the place, in season 1 we had evil Regina, for many fans such as myself season 1 was the best by far.  Season 2 was all over the place, so now here in season 3 they chose to a redemption arc for Regina. Well as many have said on this forum Regina should not have easy road to redemption, however I also don't want to see the "Evil Queen" in season 4.  Its time to move on, I know these writers have to write for broad  audience, but what they have been giving us lately is really not very good(that's just my opinion) 

       As far as Robin and Regina, I'm not putting forth anything original here, when I say the relationship was rushed and it was obvious it was done that way, to give us what they gave us in the season finale.  Is there anyone that didn't see that coming, I for one never saw the chemistry between Sean and Lana, but I guess some did.  One last thought, Robin so far has been no more than plot device used to advance the Regina redemption arc. The writers failure to provide character development for Robin in season 3,  is another reason I could not take the Regina Robin relationship seriously.  These are just my thoughts and are not intended to offend anyone.


 I agree, the Wicked Witch was killed off in the previous episode, so we could have a 2 hour Hook and Emma centric episode. I like Hook and Emma(both actors are really good) but the final two hours had nothing to do with the Wizard of Oz other than the No Place Like Home episode title.  The episode was just out of place.

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What if she had somehow escaped execution and then she went and did something important later on with a lot of ramifications?

 

For what it's worth, I felt Marian had indeed been executed. Robin believed she was dead, and I can't buy that they wouldn't have found their way back to each other if Marian had escaped on her own. I don't recall if it was previously specifically stated that Robin had seen her die. In the end scene at Granny's, he did say he'd given her up for dead, but that was Changed Timeline Robin since in his reality, Marian escaped and then disappeared because she was brought forward in time.

 

I agree freeing her wasn't the smartest thing to do but it was the human thing to do and Emma and Hook did what they could to minimize the damage after the fact. And I still maintain that had we not had the Oh Poor Regina ending here, what Emma had done would have been seen as a wonderful thing ... bringing back another happy ending to this family.

Edited by Dani-Ellie
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Leaving Marian in that cell to die--when Emma had a chance to save her--would have been a decision Emma considered morally wrong...

and out of character. But having Emma accomplish it by likely causing permanent brain damage if not killing Marian by knocking her out with a blow to the head with what looked to be the size and heft of a 2 x 4 gave me severe mental whiplash (and no doubt gave Marian physical whiplash, which, trust me, is very painful), and, worse yet, the writers tried to make it look like a comedic moment.
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Captain Swan 4Eva!! And I don't even care if that makes me sound 12.

 

My problem with them using Frozen is the fact it's so new. The other fairy tales have existed, in many cases, for hundreds of years and have been built on and reimagined. Although some of them are newer, they still have multiple interpretations due to various film versions of the original books. This gives the show scope to subvert and reinterpret them. How precisely do they do that with Frozen? So either they end up re-treading a very recent popular film or they piss everybody off. I just think it's a mistake. But hey, they may pull it off.

 

 

Note that while Frozen is new, like just about every animated movie Disney does, it's source material is is as old as the Norwegian fjords. I suspect that the dress and appearance were chosen specifically to invoke the Frozen connections (as does the advertising for Season 4 we're already seeing); but when we actually see who that is, it won't necessarily be Elsa. Especially if she's the antagonist for S4.

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Has Ginnifer Goodwin had her real life baby yet? Between the splicing of the old Snow/Charming meet cute footage, close-ups of GG's head and shoulders, and the running of her body double, the editors had their work cut out for them. 

 

The Marian twist could be seen coming from a mile away, but still felt bad for Regina.  She can never be happy for too long. 

 

I love "Back to the Future" so this homage was done well and good for the writers nodding to their inspiration.  At least they didn't go there with Charming having a crush on Leia.   Captain Swan were cute and I enjoyed seeing Killian punch his former self, how meta.

 

Not sure what to think of the "Frozen" twist, so we'll wait til next year.

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Note that while Frozen is new, like just about every animated movie Disney does, it's source material is is as old as the Norwegian fjords. I suspect that the dress and appearance were chosen specifically to invoke the Frozen connections (as does the advertising for Season 4 we're already seeing); but when we actually see who that is, it won't necessarily be Elsa. Especially if she's the antagonist for S4.

 

Kitsis said in interviews it is Elsa. So it was not just to invoke the Frozen connection, Elsa has come to Storybrooke.

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Has Ginnifer Goodwin had her real life baby yet? Between the splicing of the old Snow/Charming meet cute footage, close-ups of GG's head and shoulders, and the running of her body double, the editors had their work cut out for them.

No--in fact, Goodwin still has not had her baby. I'm actually very impressed with the editors, because aside from Goodwin's fuller face, there was no indication that past!Snow wasn't just as skinny as she was in Snow Falls. They did a really good job with hiding Ginny's pregnancy.

 

At least they didn't go there with Charming having a crush on Leia.

I did really want "Leia" to dance with Charming though. Just because!

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I'm so torn on the finale. On the one hand, I loved everything about Emma getting to see her parents fall in love, and the stuff with Emma and Hook was just gold. So great. But on the other hand, I hate with the heat of a million burning suns that the way Snowing met is forever changed. And presumably they don't remember it any other way. Ugh I just hate hate hate that.

 

I agree the editors had a crazy hard job. There were a few mess-ups I think, but it probably couldn't be avoided. Like they used the old scene where they're parting ways at the end, and she hands back the ring to Charming in the little purse/ring-cozy. How did she get it in the new timeline? And they grabbed gold off the troll bridge and he handed it to her, but where did it come from? In this timeline she didn't get gold from the trolls for the stolen jewelry. 

Edited by 3dog

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3dog, now that you mention it, it seems that, according to OUAT magic rules, once time travel has happened, it can happen again, and again, and again--which is the problem with all time travel stories. So anything that looks amiss could be the result of yet another redo. I love time travel stories, so I pretty much turn on my nitpick filters while watching.

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And they grabbed gold off the troll bridge and he handed it to her, but where did it come from? In this timeline she didn't get gold from the trolls for the stolen jewelry.

 

Snow told the trolls to give her a reason to forget the incident on the bridge ever happened; they left her the gold.

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A couple of other things I loved about this episode:

When Emma is talking to Hook in the vault there's this clogged-with-tears, not-wanting-to-cry tone in Emma's voice when she says "I want this to work". Her voice falters a little and its so freaking genuine that I am still impressed.

I always wondered why (at the time period of Snow Falls) Snow believed she had ruined Regina's life. So she thought Cora "sent Daniel away". Ok. Well, from a little girl perspective I can see her thinking that. I have mixed feelings that she both "claims" she ruined Regina's life but then later reminds Regina she was a child. She doesn't say she was manipulated by Cora, but it is certainly implied. I wish Snow would say that because Regina really needs it spelled out.

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Remember, this is fantasy. Time travel is not subject to the hard and fast rules that we have established in speculative physics and explored in science fiction. Timelines can get messed up but there are no paradoxes.

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Robin can't be the only one with that tattoo. See my post above.

legaleagle, I think that was you who posted on TWoP that the RumpBelle wedding didn't have enough witnesses to be valid. Interesting. Well, actually, that is the most interesting thing about that wedding, to me.

Yes, it was I who said that.

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I like that. Maybe king Richard? Or Will Scarlett?

 

Will already has a True Love from "Once Upon a Time in Wonderland" -- Anastasia, the Red Queen. I hope they don't change that!

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No--in fact, Goodwin still has not had her baby. I'm actually very impressed with the editors, because aside from Goodwin's fuller face, there was no indication that past!Snow wasn't just as skinny as she was in Snow Falls. They did a really good job with hiding Ginny's pregnancy.

 

I was quite impressed with the job they did too, especially with the quick shots of her body double in some scenes, and shots that did not show her baby bump.

 

Way better than the ridiculous costumes and complete lack of strategic filming in "Going Home" which took me out of that episode.  For example, they didn't even try in that flashback scene with Mary Margaret and Henry.  

Edited by Camera One

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I loved the conversation in the EF between Charming and Hook, not only because of the "I would go to the end of the world for her...or time" (le sigh) but also because Charming then followed up with "Would she do the same for you?"  Killian's answer of "I don't know" gives me hope that that is where we will see their story go next season.

 

Emma now knows what he has been more than willing to sacrifice and do for her.  I really want to see more of her awakening as to what he means to her and what she is willing to sacrifice for and do for him should he need it.   

 

And while she is figuring that out, it would also be helpful if they could make out a lot in between bouts of sexy banter.

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Emma now knows what he has been more than willing to sacrifice and do for her.  I really want to see more of her awakening as to what he means to her and what she is willing to sacrifice for and do for him should he need it.   

 

And while she is figuring that out, it would also be helpful if they could make out a lot in between bouts of sexy banter.

All of this. We have seen his struggles, now it is time for hers. Someone mentioned they would like for Elsa to be interested in Hook so Emma has a chance to get jealous for a change. I would be up for that as long as they don't do the misunderstanding thing where Emma thinks Killian actually wants Elsa, but of course he doesn't really.

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I would be up for that as long as they don't do the misunderstanding thing where Emma thinks Killian actually wants Elsa, but of course he doesn't really.

I agree.  I really hope they stay away from that, and maybe go down the road of a Killian disappearance or...something...that could be interpreted initially as an abandonment by Emma.  Once she discovers the truth, then she really does have to go to the end of the world (or time) to bring him home.  

 

Just, you know, not a half season something.  Because that would seriously cut down on the make out time.  And that would be wrong.

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I wonder if any angst or conflicts between Emma and Hook will be played for comic relief for one episode, as opposed to a storyline that goes on for all of season 4A? I'm thinking mostly of the idea that Emma thinks Hook is interested in Elsa. I don't think that's a storyline that deserves more than on episode. 

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Hook might MISTAKE Emma for Elsa LOL with all that long blonde hair :)

Just watched Frozen yesterday. Guess I am a bit beyond being enamored with Disney animations. I have always liked the Snow Queen stories, and I thought there were some cute moments in Frozen, but nothing spectacular except the song. I really dislike talking snowmen. LOL.

 

I can't yet see how Elsa will be a big baddie. She was more a very sad character than a mean/hateful/wicked/evil one. Will be interesting. It could be a brilliant OR a devastating move for them. Little Disney kids are still not going to be a measurable part of the audience at 8 so hopefully we won't see too pure an icy antagonist.

 

Having LOVED the entire finale for a grand fantasy/crossover/revisit/tribute/costume change/adventure/FINALLY HOOK GETS SOME DECENT LIP LOCKS!!! two hours, I was smiling bigtime. They have set up some bigtime expectations all across the board.

 

The Marian drama especially will be a doozie. I hope Regina doesn't revert to the total Evil Queen (though I love her and live vicariously through her in EF land heh) I didn't like them killing off Marian in the first place. If ever there was an icon of legendary true love, it was Robin and Marian.... but IF they are going to write her as a dishrag that would be worse than killing her off. Regina is a favorite. I hate to see her in such emotional turmoil BUT, Lana is so damned good at emotional turmoil.

 

Prince Neal (honestly...Neal, a saintly hero???) Emotional, yeah. A homage to the way they felt about the actor portraying Neal, yeah. Blah blah, awkward at best for Henry and especially Emma. Give the kid his own identity. Ah well, it's A&E's choice though if anything could remotely be seen as serving the fans (or a guilty conscience because they had no idea what to do with the travesty that was Neal) it is Prince Neal. It's their story and we live with it or change the channel...but ick on the name. I hope they develop a nickname for him.) Snow and Charming have someone new to defend to the death.

 

So we will definitely be revisiting the dark cloud of deceit that looms over our newly married couple. (Loved the intimacy of the wedding AND her wedding suit! About the only thing I have liked about Belle so faaaar, but I think the love connection has been a wonderful opportunity to see fabulous Carlyle display his craft.) I had missed the normal (not insane) Rumple, so seeing him romp around EF land with Emma and Hook reminded me of the delicious banter he provides. Even Dark Ones need some sweet, old fashioned, LEGAL nookie! I hope they make it.

 

We will see a new head butt and more with Emma and Regina. Yayyyy. She is Regina's magic equal now, not easily controlled or defeated. They were always  good adversaries even without Emma's magic, now could be awesome.

 

We will hopefully see some edgy, witty, sensual, snarky fun with Dick and Jane style love and adventure with the Captain and his Lady. (NOW that the FUN alluded to in Neverland can begin in earnest.) And some really sassy smooches are in order now! (playing of the Hook theme and a suggestive eyebrow raise) Maybe going off to find the Jolly Roger. Someone has it! (A Han Solo /Hook carbon "freeze" parallel with Elsa involved might be too precious, but too irresistible for A&E Star War Geeks extraordinaire.)

 

Maybe they will even give Henry some peers to hang out with.

 

It could be lots of fall fun awaiting us.

Edited by BoPeeps

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I would be up for that as long as they don't do the misunderstanding thing where Emma thinks Killian actually wants Elsa, but of course he doesn't really.

I really hope they avoid that sitcom trope because, really, the man gave up his ship and jumped through portals for her. He spent centuries trying to avenge his last love. She'd have to be pretty dense to even imagine that he might even remotely be interested in anyone else so soon after finally winning her. There's a line in a movie (I think it might have been Big Fish) about how to this one man, there were two women in the world: his wife, and all other women, who all just blurred together and were hardly noticed because his wife was the only one who mattered. That's the way Hook seems to be about Emma right now. He's vaguely aware that there are other females out there, and he might even raise an eyebrow and smile at them, but the only one he really sees is Emma.

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I really hope they avoid that sitcom trope

 

 

Also because, what this ship needs now isn't another obstacle but a chance for consolidation. I kind of hope they're just together and fighting this next enemy solidifies their partnership and there's no relationship angst subplot to wade through.

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I kind of hope they're just together and fighting this next enemy solidifies their partnership and there's no relationship angst subplot to wade through.

The thing with the jealousy angst is that even if it's Emma realizing her feelings by getting jealous, it comes back around to him having to prove himself to her, which should be unnecessary by this point. However, I don't think it would hurt matters for her to have to jump through a portal for him (figuratively speaking). We know what he'll do for her. What will she do for him? I don't think they really need that, but it's something the audience would like to see.

 

If they're really drawing from Frozen, they have the opportunity for that "act of true love," which seems to require something beyond just a kiss.

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We know what he'll do for her. What will she do for him?

I think that has been my beef about Emma and her relationship with not just Hook but all her men, and I think it is a problem that a lot of shows with heroines have (Sookie on True Blood comes to mind.) where TPTB make the mistake of assuming we think their girl is as irresistible and infallible as they do. It's been an issue for me all this season. Hook risked his life to save Henry, gave up his ship, crossed realms to find her, helped save her town and family, and always with her it's about what a bad, bad man he is. I get that they had to keep things interesting by not getting them together too soon, but I wish the reasons were more because Emma loved him but couldn't let her walls down rather than being more about how unworthy he was of her. I'd love to see next season *her* proving herself worthy of *him* and not the other way round.

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Emma pretty much sacrificed the life of her baby sibling, her parents, not to mention her and her son's very existence by doing mouth on mouth on Hook to save him from drowning.  I'm not sure what more of a gesture one can give beyond that.

Edited by Camera One
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Ymmv, but I thought it was pretty empty as sacrifices go. It was an impulsive act, one she would have done for anyone in need. I don't think she realized it cost her her powers as a "kiss" so I'm not sure it counts for me as a selfless act of love for me. And again (and I like her. I do.). But I think it was played as how awesome Emma was rather than as a show of her feelings for him.

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I get that they had to keep things interesting by not getting them together too soon, but I wish the reasons were more because Emma loved him but couldn't let her walls down rather than being more about how unworthy he was of her.

I never got the impression that it was ever about how unworthy he was for her. It seemed to be all about her walls, and he was well aware of that. It really was a classic case of "it's not you, it's me," and she'd throw out the "Pirate!" thing to deflect that her real issue was that she liked him enough that she was terrified by how much it would hurt when he inevitably disappointed her (because everyone does) or she lost him. The thing he proved in these episodes wasn't that he was worthy, but rather just how far he would go for her, and that made her realize he was probably as safe a bet as she was going to find. Bad things might happen to him to cause her to lose him because there are no guarantees in life, but he was never going to abandon or betray her, unlike a certain other person we could mention whose name her baby brother is now stuck with.

 

Her parents may have thought he was unworthy, but David seemed to be changing his mind after Hook saved his life in Neverland and surely has totally come around now that he knows who "Prince Charles" really was, if he remembers that campfire conversation and remembers the way "Charles" held "Leia" when Snow was being executed. Snow may start to come around now that she knows the identity of "Prince Charles" and apparently knows the lengths he went to for her daughter.

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it seemed to be all about her walls, and he was well aware of that. It really was a classic case of "it's not you, it's me," and she'd throw out the "Pirate!" thing to deflect that her real issue was that she liked him enough that she was terrified by how much it would hurt when he inevitably disappointed her

I agree that's what it was *supposed* to be about, and maybe it was just me, but I never really got that, and I don't know if it was in the acting choices or the writing. When he finally revealed that Zelena had cursed his lips and Emma immediately jumped to the conclusion that he must be in league with Zelena, it felt less like she had been disappointed in love than she was just immediately trotting out the bad, bad pirate man accusations. Again. The writers keep telling me that she has walls, and I get that. I really, really do, and I think that's a valid reason for her not jumping in with Hook or with anyone. But I'm not sure I saw it as much as heard it. Maybe it's Jennifer Morrison's acting, but it always came across in her performances that her reluctance to be with Hook had more to do with him and who he was rather than her own feelings. ::shrugs::

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Maybe it's Jennifer Morrison's acting, but it always came across in her performances that her reluctance to be with Hook had more to do with him and who he was rather than her own feelings. ::shrugs::

 

I agree that, on first viewing, some Emma-Hook scenes give off this feeling.

 

I think the signs that Emma's walls were coming down were maybe too subtle at first.

 

But, the fact that she left Henry in Hook's care clearly means she trusted him by then. If she thought Hook was a bad man pirate she would never have allowed that.

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I love this episode I can't stop watching it over and over on demand. It was so much fun. I loved Emma distracting Hook's old self and current Hook being jealous and horrifed at himself. "We both know I'm his type" "He was asking for it" and her tossing her drink over her shoulder. I loved Emma's reaction and excitement at seeing her parents in the FTL and seeing Rumple. I loved all the one liners. "I guess we're kidnapping you", "You get my first dance at my first royal ball and all you can say is I told you so?", Hook being upset at being robbed of his "daring rescue". and of course the best line of the night "What the Hell am I doing in Here?". It was so much fun and so funny. I loved at the diner with Grumpy gossiping with Granny. I do wish there had been more of that and hearing from Abigail and Aurora at the diner. I know it'll never happen but it would be nice to see more of them in the future. It would also be nice to see more of this Snow. And I loved, loved that Hook sold Jolly Roger for Emma, that was so awesome. I'm trying really hard not to be a shipper thanks to my heart being broken too many times on soaps. But damn that was awesome.

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Honestly, my issue with Morrison's acting is that Emma just never seemed that interested in Hook--imo, JMo overplayed "indifference to cover feelings" waaaay too much on the indifference side. But I'm the opposite--I never thought Emma thought Hook was "unworthy" of her or that she didn't want to be with him because he was a pirate or anything like that. To me, it just seemed like she didn't want to get with him because she was...wait for it!...just not that interested.

Edited by stealinghome

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There have been many times, savior or not, that I have thought Emma was a hard ass. Walls and all, her attitude often smacked of condescension towards everyone in Storybrooke including her parents. I never saw any signs she was still in love with Neal, in spite of her reversal to young, heart broken Emma of *jail house blues* on a few brief occasions. When she did her *plucked out of thin air* I loved him speech about Walsh while she was in the forest with Hook, I thought she was full of baloney, force fed or otherwise. She never showed an overt affection for Walsh when he asked her to marry him. She hardly blinked and showed no JOY whatsoever. She ran. And was grasping at straws even for Henry when she got back to the apartment. It was all part of her stoic, cold, I refuse to show compassion or interest for anyone or anything, biatttccch routine. It was wearing very thin and is part of a problem with (smiling gorgeous, funny) Jennifer Morrison's character delivery of some very harsh and mean lines, to everyone.

 

Quite often, she pissed me off just by being Emma, and not having anything to do with Hook specifically.

 

I think Regina showed her emotions much deeper and fluidly than Emma on most occasions.

 

Hook was way too patient and dedicated considering the crap ass stuff she would serve up to him occasionally. I know, walls, emotional baggage and all, but it was very unattractive behavior. You could fill a twenty car freight train the accumulated baggage of Storybrooke residents.

 

The Emma of the finale got to...FINALLY smile...and blush and react to some genuine flirty, female "in this land I am not a hard ass bounty hunter, I am a tad on the vulnerable end of the plot but still a strong woman!" stuff. Much more appealing. More human. I better understood WHY Hook was enamored of this Emma. I hope enough of her still remains in Season 4 even with the Marian Drama brewing.

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There have been many times, savior or not, that I have thought Emma was a hard ass. Walls and all, her attitude often smacked of condescension towards everyone in Storybrooke including her parents.

 

Responding in the Emma thread. 

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Robert and Ginnifer are the show's best regular actors. Everyone else is mediocre but can be good if the writing is there, a rare event, to downright bad. But those 2 will take some crappy material and make it look good.

Regina has exactly 2 emotions "someone killed my puppy, kitty, baby and stole my Ben and Jerry's" and "I'm on a daytime soap, watch me chew all this scenery and act evil." Lana has zero nuance or subtlety in her performances and she and the writers have turned Regina into a full on Mary Sue and caricature. Back when they first started I thought they were going to copy Cersei for her but she's more like a combination of my 2 most hated characters Joffrey and Sansa. All the nastiness and whinyness of Joff and the victim complex of Sansa. It takes a special brand of delusion to try to sell female Joffrey as a victim. I can't believe they destroyed Robin and Marian to sell her disgusting self. What just because Disney's Hood was a fox they don't matter? I wouldn't be surprise if they had the most popular recent Disney character in Elsa come and prop Regina some more too. I wanted Maian to rip out her tongue at the end so she can finally stop her I'm a victim whining. Or for Snow to get the baby blues and cut out her vocal cords.

Maybe people didn't see Emma being attracted to Hook cause they have little chemistry. She has more chemistry with her dad and Rumple. But she sure was making googly eyes at him. Honestly the amount of camera time spent on those 2 staring soulfully at each other was downright eye roll worthy. And her constant fluttering eyelashes or whatever she was doing with her Jane Austen era flirt manual was silly. I saw the attraction from both ends like instant oatmeal. Just no chemistry to back it up. Except for the kiss in Neverland. That was hot.

Their relationship was never about worthiness. It was individual journeys, even if they were crappy ones. That's what these 2 episodes were about. Hook and Emma both had to like themselves before they hooked up officially. In the past you see that current Hook didn't like his old self. He might've agreed that he gave up the ship for her but really letting go of the ship was letting go of the pirate. That ship technically started the whole pirate thing. And Emma finally liked herself, her parents, world peace and unicorns. Now they've turned her into Snow and watch her debase herself for ruining female Joffrey's life.

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So, we're here at the finale already. I just missed reviewing this episode in the proper time when it came out!

 

This episode (counting it as one) is definitely a shipper extravaganza. If you're a Captain Swan, Snowing or Rumpbelle shipper, it's heaven. If you're an Outlaw Queen shipper, it's heaven then it's hell. Emma and Hook have some wonderful scenes here, but I would have rather focused on a story more progressive to the plot instead of a one-off adventure that really changed little. 

 

Pros:
* Captain Swan. Aren't you glad it wasn't two hours of Outlaw Queen?
* Back to the Future references.

* Emma accepts Storybrooke as home.
* Prince Charles alias.

* EF Rumple! He is so hilarious in this episode, especially with Emma there.

* So many cameos. Blackbeard, Midas, Gepetto, and Kathryn to name a few.

* Our first real Emma foster home flashback.

* The tavern/ship scene with Emma and Hook. Great music, enjoyable antics.

* Dark One's Vault. Yay for more worldbuilding!
* Captain Swan seems to be official now, or very close to it.

 

Cons:
* Crummy Rumpbelle wedding. Not exactly "splashy".
* Moe French's instant forgiveness of Rumple.

* Not much overall plot movement in the two hours.

* Marian. Just no.

* Emma and Regina's reactions to Marian. Both were annoying.

* Rumple's dagger deception.

* Rumple's Zelena deception.

* This episode messed with Snow Falls.

* The lack of better time travel science.

* Regina burning Snow at the stake.

* Lack of exciting season-end twist.

* Frozen reveal.

* Rumple drinking the forget potion was so out of character.

* It was detached from the rest of the season, both 3A and 3B.

* The worst con of all: Prince Neal's name.

 

I wonder what it would have been like if Emma had actually traveled in time to Bleeding Through instead. It sounds boring I know, but I would love for her to meet her grandparents. (And see younger Cora. Hehe.)

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I read some of the comments and it is so telling about what this show have become! Fans reacting with their bias glass on.

Well, I m in the captainswan team and I do saw real chemystry between Jen and Colin so I loved the final, and the problem with the pacing in the relationship was in half . The writers choose to drag the will they or not until the final.

Outlaws Queen is too soon too fast for my taste, but I cared until thebad Maryam twist happened! Just Why!

Rumbelle I m curious about what will happen now, so not a bad twist if Belle become more independant from the mess

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My absolute favorite thing in these episodes is Emma's face when she meets Rumple in Imp form. Her face was HOLY S&%*!.  It was priceless.

 

My second most favorite thing was Abigail.  She was awesome. My hero, indeed.  She does snark so well.  Charming was totally the hen pecked fiancé.

 

More seriously, I felt JenMo did a great job with the acting.  Her facial expressions were amazing.  You could see the wonder she had watching her parents fall in love.  I think that is hard too emote.   I liked that Emma loosened up and was having fun.  JenMo is so vivacious in interviews and I finally got to see that in Emma.  I think one of the reasons I ship CS is because Hook does bring out the soft warm side of Emma.   She is not a naturally warm person.  She loves Henry but she isn't playful with him.  With Hook, she is playful and warm.  He also challenges her in a way that is constructive.  I think he is good for her. 

 

I think the finale is more Emma's story than Hook.  He is always there to support her.  He is proud of her and sees her for how she truly is.  I think his belief in her is the sexiest thing about CS.  He is ready to fight for her; is there to comfort her; helps set the timeline right; and tries to help her avoid his mistakes.  He never demands, even asks, that she returns his affection.  I like how he gives Emma her space when they get to StoryBrooke.  It was Emma who sought him out.  He in no way forced himself on her.  It makes me sad that I have to write that.  I think Colin did a great job when he tells her about trading his ship for the bean.  He is trying to keep it light and make it seem like it is not a big deal. 

 

I forget how cute Charming and Snow are together.  We need to see more of that in Storybrook and bad-ass Snow.   I also want Snow to have her friendship with Red.  It makes Snow more well rounded.  I loved that we got to see so much of the townsfolks. I hope that we get to see more townsfolk in  Season 4, even if it is quick seasons.  I just wish we got to see and hear Philip. He was my favorite Disney prince, Flynn is probably my second, having recently watched Tangled.

 

The Dark One's wedding was appropriately dark and creepy.   It cracks me up that  a therapist had to marry them.  The wedding reminded me of Pheobe's and Cole's wedding on Charmed.   I loved the montage with the wedding vows and the cuts to the other couples.  Snowing:  "I have not spent my life losing you.  I spent it finding you."  CS:  "When we met I wasn't just unloved and unloving, I was an enemy of love.  Love had only brought me pain. My walls were up and you brought them down.  You brought me home." 

 

Well done show.  My only real complaint is naming the baby Neal is weird to me and the contrived Marian triangle.  I actually like Marian, but don't want another fiasco like the Hook-Emma-Neal mess.

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* Crummy Rumpbelle wedding. Not exactly "splashy".

Oh man, I totally forgot about the "splashy" thing. We spent so long analyzing and speculating about that, too! From memory, it was a word an entertainment site used, not one of the writers or actors directly. But still: they either totally misunderstood what that wedding was going to be like (and it's entirely possible Adam or Eddy told them "Oh yeah, we're going to have this amazing wedding in the forest and...") or they just totally made it up. When season 4 starts, I might finally start keeping record of the totally off-base theories we had for each ep based on vague spoilers and BTS photos.

 

Anyway, my memories of watching this episode are a bit weird, because I was on vacation abroad, in a hotel with horribly slow wifi and using a VPN to watch it on Hulu, so it took hours and for some reason the last five minutes would not load, so it literally took a whole hour to watch just that part. 

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Actually, I'm pretty sure the "splashy" part was supposed to refer to the well--iirc, Rumpel and Belle got married next to the wishing well. Not a lot of splashing, but definitely some water involved. (I think some people on the spoiler thread had guessed that it did refer to actual water?)

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Actually, I'm pretty sure the "splashy" part was supposed to refer to the well--iirc, Rumpel and Belle got married next to the wishing well.

Maybe so. If that's really what they intended, that's pretty weak. But my bet is what A&E said got lost in translation with the media person.

I was hoping for an Outlaw Queen wedding at the end of the Missing Year. (That was before they became so blah.)

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Rumple drinking the forget potion was so out of character.

 

I see this a lot and I don't actually think it is so out of character. Rumpel knows that he only sees pieces of the future and that only having little bits of knowledge causes lots and lots of problems. Here he's been told that his current plans to find his son work and they reconcile. He's also aware that something develops between him and Belle, so there's got to be a thread of hmm with regards to his thinking about changing things now. Let's not forget that Rumpel now knows that someone's discovered the secret to time travel since Emma & Hook are there in the past. Since his curse plans did work and he knows that his future self will have all the information about what happened to his son, why wouldn't he take the potion so that he can be assured of getting to that point in the future where he'd know all and thus be in a position to use the newly acquired time travel spell to go back and save his son? Alternately, if his future self decides that taking the potion was a bad idea, he could go back and stop himself from taking it in the first place. It's not like he needs to worry about aging or anything like that. He's got all the time in the world.

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I liked that Emma loosened up and was having fun.  JenMo is so vivacious in interviews and I finally got to see that in Emma.  I think one of the reasons I ship CS is because Hook does bring out the soft warm side of Emma.

I think it also works in the other direction. You don't really notice most of the time with him because he grins and cracks jokes quite often, but he doesn't really smile in a way that reaches his eyes. You can actually tell the difference between a still photo that's a behind-the-scenes picture of Colin in costume and a photo of Hook in character because of the eyes. When they released the promo photos for this episode, I actually thought that some of the pictures of the scene at the ball were behind the scenes photos because both of them were truly smiling, something we never really see, and especially the look on his face almost made him look like a different person entirely. In context, in the episode, it turned out to be him having some true happiness in seeing her so happy at the ball. Until you see him really smile, you don't realize how sad he looks the rest of the time, even when he's grinning. I think the only other time he's looked nearly that lighthearted was in the "Good Form" flashback. It's hard not to cheer for a relationship that makes both of them able to smile like that. It's also both sweet and a little sad that the one thing that makes him truly smile is seeing her happy.

 

I see this a lot and I don't actually think it is so out of character. Rumpel knows that he only sees pieces of the future and that only having little bits of knowledge causes lots and lots of problems.

Yeah, I didn't have a problem with that because once he learned that he'd find his son, he became terrified of altering the future. That was one reason he was willing to help them set things right in the first place. Then he was going to lock them in the vault so they couldn't run the risk of altering the timeline. If he'd learned he wouldn't succeed, he wouldn't have drunk the potion because he'd want to change things, but since he knew he would, he didn't want to alter that. Even knowing that his son died after they were reunited, he still couldn't risk changing things because then he might not be reunited before his son's death.

 

The big question is will he or has he regained any of those memories?

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Even knowing that his son died after they were reunited, he still couldn't risk changing things because then he might not be reunited before his son's death.

But see, this is why I do think Rumpel drinking the potion was massively out of character, because there's just absolutely no way that the Rumpel we've seen would calmly, knowingly sign up for a future that saw Bae dead before his time in some sort of tragic manner (Emma's tears). Absolutely. No. Way. Rumpel cares about reuniting with Bae, absolutely, but he also cares that his son lives. The Rumpel we'd seen before 3x22 would have adamantly refused to take the potion and made Emma tell him a) what worked to get him back to Bae but also b) how Bae died, so he could scheme to avoid Bae's death. After all, it's Rumpel--he's totally arrogant enough to think he can change only the parts of the future he wants changed. And even if it wasn't possible, Rumpel would move heaven and earth trying.

 

So yeah, I have to throw a penalty flag on the idea that Rumpel would find out that Bae died tragically and just be like "oh, okay, yeah, I guess I'll take a potion that ensures that future and Bae's tragic death will come to pass." It's a real betrayal of the essence of the Rumpel character before 3x22, imo, so I try not to remember that it happened most of the time.

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But the thing is Rumple does not know the circumstances of Bae's death.  For all he knew Bae was an old man who had lived a full life before he died a hero, especially since the last time he saw Bae was centuries ago.

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I don't think the way Emma talks about Bae squares with him dying at a ripe old 80, though. Based on her age, what she says, and how she says it, I don't think it would be hard for Rumpel to realize that Bae died (relatively) young.

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Maybe he was happy that at least his son had died a hero (bleargh), and not like a coward. Rumple's been haunted by his own percieved cowardice all his life.

Edited by Rumsy4
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Rumple has learned the hard way not to try to bypass a prophecy. He hasn't done that since that first time when his actions on the battlefield led to his son growing up without a father, regardless of what he did. Since then, he's actually gone along with the prophecies and was opposed to altering time. I do think that if he'd learned he didn't see Bae again, he might have been tempted to avoid it, but he also knows that events are precarious, and anything he did to try to prevent Bae's death could also have led to him never seeing Bae again (which is actually kind of true -- if he'd never found Bae again, there's a very good chance that Neal would have lived out a normal life). The only way to guarantee seeing his son again would be to let time unfold the way it did before, without him mucking about with the timeline.

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Rumple has learned the hard way not to try to bypass a prophecy. He hasn't done that since that first time when his actions on the battlefield led to his son growing up without a father, regardless of what he did.

 

Not in the past, he hadn't. If he had learned that, he wouldn't have tried to kill Henry.

 

 

The only way to guarantee seeing his son again would be to let time unfold the way it did before, without him mucking about with the timeline.

 

Rumple said himself he could try to change Bae's fate to Emma, though. It was already in his mind to try and change it. Rumple is the kind of guy who likes to bend the rules and take matters into his own clammy hands. He wouldn't ever let Bae die, even if he was supposed to. You can see this in Quiet Minds when Neal was supposed to die, but Rumple stopped it by absorbing him.

 

Rumple just isn't the kind of guy who would make an impulsive decision based on something a random woman he never met said. He didn't even take time to think about it.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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