Season Eight: The Ever Changing Grizzly Beard of Goren and Return of The Lean

[Maherjunkie]

Wasn't he in True Blood?

[WendyCR72]

10 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

Wasn't he in True Blood?

No idea since I've never watched True Blood. But I swear I've seen the guy elsewhere. Like I said, I thought he did a good job!

[WendyCR72]

A few holes with "Lady's Man" (airing now) that just occurred to me: Okay, maybe Kevin looked okay as a woman, but wouldn't his voice give him away? I doubt he could make his sound feminine. How would Boz's pals not know it was a guy?

And second, it was clear Kevin was in Alex's home. You mean to tell me that she never noticed things out of place or smelled the perfume in her house? Alex was always portraeyd as a smart cop, so this doesn't fit.

Still a good episode (IMO!),l but come on here...

[WendyCR72]

Still wish the whole Josh Snow name was explained in "All In". Based on the back story, it's pretty clear this is supposed to be Joey Frost, but older. (And Frost/Snow...yeah.) A different actor is playing the guy, but all the references scream Joey.

I wonder what issues were involved. Probably legalities, but you'd think TPTB would have cleared them before tackling a past story line.

[WendyCR72]

"Lady's Man", why the hell write a scene where Boz runs naked into the ocean if his butt would be pixelated out, anyway? That never did make sense to me. Either don't write it, knowing network TV is even offended by a butt or have him wear skivvies or something.

(On now, hence the little observation!)

[WendyCR72]

WE is airing "Lady's Man" again (for the Raul Esparza fans). I do love the bits of levity in this one, one of them with Boz's friend in the interrogation room as he begs to keep cheating on wifey a secret. Goren is snickering in back, but when Boz's pal turns, Goren schools his face as all serious. Hee.

[Maherjunkie]

I thought their mocking him at the end was weird and dumb.

[WendyCR72]

On 4/17/2017 at 4:38 PM, Maherjunkie said:

I thought their mocking him at the end was weird and dumb.

Mulrooney? As far as I'm concerned, he got off easy. He was the one that dressed as a woman and committed his revenge, not to mention breaking into Eames' home...

[Maherjunkie]

No, their gender bending baby talk to him.

[WendyCR72]

On 4/18/2017 at 11:58 PM, Maherjunkie said:

No, their gender bending baby talk to him.

Like I said, Mulrooney did it. He was after Eames, and for that alone, I knew Goren would go at him hard. And since he was trying to ruin Eames' life - because he was crooked and wrecked his own career - I had no issues with her mocking his weak, whiny psychotic ass.

[Maherjunkie]

Do  you think Bobby would take up for us with such passion?

[WendyCR72]

On 4/22/2017 at 0:04 AM, Maherjunkie said:

Do  you think Bobby would take up for us with such passion?

I think he would! Bobby was for the little guy or girl. That, and he was all for the proper treatment of mothers!  :-P  Those mommy issues...

[WendyCR72]

As @wknt3 often notes, S8...wasn't the best. But as it plays on ION, I did like, besides "Lady's Man", the callback to S5's "Cruise To Nowhere" with "All In", even with the strange, unacknowledged name change of Josh/Joey.

I did like that CI used callbacks more than once. More true to life.

"All In" was depressing, though, in that Joey/Josh looked like he had a shot in S5, only for it to be pissed away. And hey, Goren got to use a magic trick again with the gun at the end. So there's that!

[Xeliou66]

Goren looked tired and worn out through most of season 8, I think VDO was suffering from exhaustion and wasn't in great health, and seemed rather bored playing Goren as well. Another thing that hurt Season 8 were the episodes being aired out of order, most notably Faithfully being scheduled to air first but airing 5th instead, which made it seem a little off with Goren returning from visiting family at the start. Also the episode The Glory That Was was supposed to be the first Nichols episode, and it aired 8th, and now it doesn't appear on reruns and isn't on the DVD's because some snowflakes in Brazil got pissed at NBC ( the episode is available online ). The out of order episodes and production issues made season 8 weaker.

That being said, season 8 had good moments. I really liked the episode Family Values, one of CI's darkest, creepiest and most disturbing episodes, Goren seemed fully in his element in that one and the final confrontation between Goren and the killer was one of CI's most intense. I liked how the focus went back to being on the cases after all the tiresome personal crap in seasons 6-7. Overall I would say Season 8 wasn't as good as 1-5 or 10, better than 6 and about on par with 7 and 9

[WendyCR72]

On 9/17/2017 at 6:05 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Another thing that hurt Season 8 were the episodes being aired out of order, most notably Faithfully being scheduled to air first

It was? I never knew that.

 

On 9/17/2017 at 6:05 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Also the episode The Glory That Was was supposed to be the first Nichols episode, and it aired 8th

And are you sure here? The intro in "Rock Star" seemed rather definitive. And I never knew the issue(s) with "The Glory That Was" had something to do with Brazil. But as I have a region-free DVD player, I can say this episode is on the foreign DVD season set for S8 with the slightly different cover here. So I have both versions of S8.

And we'll part ways on Season 8 topping Season 6.  :-)  I had many issues with S6, but I do think, overall, it was a good season and the acting was on point throughout.

I knew S8 was out of order, though! One episode, Goren would have the longer, curlier hair and bushy beard; the next, his hair was short and he was clean-shaven. Wish either DVD set had the production order rather than airing order.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah, Faithfully was scheduled to air first, that explains the start with Goren returning from Michigan and Ross welcoming him back, likely after the events of Frame where Goren probably took a leave of absence. I also think Family Values was opposed to be the last of the Goren episodes that year, that explains why he seemed to have more energy and looked better in that one, I think it was supposed to symbolize his full return to being himself. 

And I'm pretty sure The Glory That Was was going to be the first or second Nichols episode, and if it was the first the Nichols intro was added on to Rock Star. And the reason The Glory That Was isn't on DVD and is never shown is because Brazilian officials got offended over the depiction of corruption in the Olympic Selection committee and so NBC pulled it. Pathetic that they backed off I think, especially considering the fact that the 2016 Olympics turned out to be pretty much a disaster with Brazil being unsuited to host it. 

Season 6 was awful IMO, the soapy melodrama was unbearable. There were 3 episodes about Goren's family, there was Eames' kidnapping, there was the awful Logan episode with the woman from his building, there were the awful, headache inducing filming styles, the music montages and the dumbing down of the stories. Season 8 was flawed and dull in parts but it felt like somewhat of a return to the format of focusing on the cases and not personal crap. What did you like about season 6? 

[WendyCR72]

20 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

What did you like about season 6? 

Should probably answer this in the S6 forum, but I'll be brief here. While I didn't like how the show went TOTAL SOAP, I did like that we did at least see Goren's brother, having heard enough about him over the seasons. On the other hand, I adore Rita Moreno as an actress and, objectively, think she played Frances Goren very effectively. However, I think leaving Goren's mom as an unseen person would have kept the powerful affect it seemed to have at her mere mention early on. Having her actually shown seemed to somehow...I don't know, reduce it somehow.

I loved the Mothership, but I think a few personal details never lessened that show. I think that is what CI should and could have done, too. Just the job can just as easily make characters cardboard cutouts, IMO. Leight just went too far in the other direction. But a balance just seems more well rounded, to me.

And, honestly, even putting aside that issue, I think the writing/stories in S6 were still much sharper than S8. Of course, S8 had the disadvantage of the Writers' Strike, hence only 16 episodes. But considering the last few, like Revolution (not a fan, and not just because Bobby was absent) and Major Case, maybe that was for the best. I do think even if the personal strife was over the top, it did give both KE and VDO something to sink their teeth into, and I think they both did a great job, regardless. Tomato, tomahto!  :-)

To bring this back to S8, though: As much as I preferred G/E, it's too bad said strike (I assume that is the reason?) didn't allow a better goodbye for Wheeler.

[wknt3]

On 09/17/2017 at 4:00 PM, WendyCR72 said:

As @wknt3 often notes, S8...wasn't the best. But as it plays on ION, I did like, besides "Lady's Man", the callback to S5's "Cruise To Nowhere" with "All In", even with the strange, unacknowledged name change of Josh/Joey.

I wouldn't say "often notes"! More like "memorably noted"  :-) Other than one flippant remark that caused a bit of confusion I don't think I've mentioned Season 8 specifically here much. I do agree that it's far from the best and stick by my assertion that it's clear evidence (along with Season 9) that the problems went beyond any one individual. But I also agree that there were some good moments, especially when you watch the reruns in isolation where the issues of sequence, creative direction, etc. don't matter as much and the good moments can be appreciated for what they are since we know that in the words of Dan Savage "it gets better."

 

On 09/17/2017 at 6:05 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Goren looked tired and worn out through most of season 8, I think VDO was suffering from exhaustion and wasn't in great health, and seemed rather bored playing Goren as well. Another thing that hurt Season 8 were the episodes being aired out of order, most notably Faithfully being scheduled to air first but airing 5th instead, which made it seem a little off with Goren returning from visiting family at the start. Also the episode The Glory That Was was supposed to be the first Nichols episode, and it aired 8th, and now it doesn't appear on reruns and isn't on the DVD's because some snowflakes in Brazil got pissed at NBC ( the episode is available online ). The out of order episodes and production issues made season 8 weaker.

Yeah VDO definitely had some serious issues that I suspect went beyond exhaustion and that part of what can read as boredom is the result of those issues. I wonder why networks haven't learned that just because a show isn't totally serialized doesn't mean that messing around with the episode order is a good idea. Even if it doesn't screw up continuity per se it almost always leads to confusion for the audience wondering why the next episode is making a big deal of something we already know or where some minor character is coming from. They're still doing it today with SVU and Blue Bloods.

 

22 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

And are you sure here? The intro in "Rock Star" seemed rather definitive. And I never knew the issue(s) with "The Glory That Was" had something to do with Brazil. But as I have a region-free DVD player, I can say this episode is on  the foreign DVD season set for S8 with the slightly different cover here. So I have both versions of S8.

And we'll part ways on Season 8 topping Season 6.  :-)  I had many issues with S6, but I do think, overall, it was a good season and the acting was on point throughout.

I knew S8 was out of order, though! One episode, Goren would have the longer, curlier hair and bushy beard; the next, his hair was short and he was clean-shaven. Wish either DVD set had the production order rather than airing order.

Brazil and the Olympics folks being offended seems to be the leading theory. The other possibility is that they screwed up with the rights clearance for "Breakfast at Tiffany's" More details here  http://same-law.livejournal.com/995964.html Again you would think NBC would learn about approving plots that might hurt their business relationships with corrupt thin skinned egotists, but current events would indicate otherwise.

And you are absolutely right about the relative merits of season 8 even if you're jusdgement is affected by your anti-Nchols bias, ;-)

 

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I loved the Mothership, but I think a few personal details never lessened that show. I think that is what CI should and could have done, too. Just the job can just as easily make characters cardboard cutouts, IMO. Leight just went too far in the other direction. But a balance just seems more well rounded, to me.

I think adding a personal subplot actually made the Mothership better, mostly because it was a new angle after two decades. And I agree that is what they should have done although I don't think it is as easy to pull off as it is for to say.

 

Quote

And, honestly, even putting aside that issue, I think the writing/stories in S6 were still much sharper than S8. Of course, S8 had the disadvantage of the Writers' Strike, hence only 16 episodes. But considering the last few, like Revolution (not a fan, and not just because Bobby was absent) and Major Case, maybe that was for the best. I do think even if the personal strife was over the top, it did give both KE and VDO something to sink their teeth into, and I think they both did a great job, regardless. Tomato, tomahto!  :-)

To bring this back to S8, though: As much as I preferred G/E, it's too bad said strike (I assume that is the reason?) didn't allow a better goodbye for Wheeler.

To be fair the quality of the last few episodes was almost certainly affected by the strike as they couldn't re-write once the strike started and Dick Wolf's focus was surely on getting scripts completed no matter what. As far as Wheeler's goodbye it could be the strike or it could be the standard Dick Wolf cursory write off for actors who got on his bad side somehow. I haven't heard about any issues with Julianne Nicholson and she's in the cast of True Crime, but who knows with him?

Edited September 19, 2017 by wknt3

[WendyCR72]

6 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

I haven't heard about any issues with Julianne Nicholson and she's in the cast of True Crime

I didn't know this! But good for Ms. Nicholson. This will either be good - or a total train wreck, IMO.

[WendyCR72]

S8 was all over the place, as we discussed. But one thing I never got - I think it was around the episode "Major Case", but not 100% sure - was that Eames mentioned Goren being in Tennessee at one point. I wonder if that was supposed to be tied to something before the strike derailed things? Or why make a mention of Tennessee and send Goren there at all? Why not just have him home sick or whatnot?

I'd love to know how S8 was supposed to go. It just seemed to veer everywhere.

[WendyCR72]

WE has been showing S8 during late nights, and "All In" aired a few days ago. Amazed I never heard this before, but I think the actress playing Angela flubbed on Josh's name early on. She said, "This could be really good for us, Joe." At least I'm 99% sure that was what she said.

Which makes some sort of sense since it's still pretty certain that Josh Snow was Joey Frost. But seeing as they changed his name, it's a good thing the actress spoke so low during the flub. Good episode, odd circumstances.

The later Writers' Strike really had the show end on a odd note that season, with Goren MIA and Wheeler gone without fanfare.

[Maherjunkie]

That feels right, but I am not sure.

[Xeliou66]

Season 8 was odd all around, it just had an off feel. The episodes were aired out of order, Faithfully should’ve been aired first, and I think Family Values should’ve been the final Goren episode, there was barely any follow up to the events at the end of season 7, there is the episode that is still never shown on reruns The Glory That Was, even though I didn’t find it controversial at all. There was the disappearence of Wheeler at the end, who left to give birth and was never mentioned again, and the whole season just seemed uneven, like they didn’t know where they were going. The whole season was juts off, better than 6, better than parts of 7 but overall 7 had better episodes, but 8 was just uneven. They didn’t seem to know what to do with Goren, I’m so glad season 10 was strong and provided nice closure for Goren after him and Eames’ very unsatisfying season 9 departure, season 10 did a lot to repair the show which had sunk drastically after a great first 5 years. 

[WendyCR72]

4 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 8 was odd all around, it just had an off feel. The episodes were aired out of order, Faithfully should’ve been aired first, and I think Family Values should’ve been the final Goren episode, there was barely any follow up to the events at the end of season 7, there is the episode that is still never shown on reruns The Glory That Was, even though I didn’t find it controversial at all. There was the disappearence of Wheeler at the end, who left to give birth and was never mentioned again, and the whole season just seemed uneven, like they didn’t know where they were going. The whole season was juts off, better than 6, better than parts of 7 but overall 7 had better episodes, but 8 was just uneven. They didn’t seem to know what to do with Goren, I’m so glad season 10 was strong and provided nice closure for Goren after him and Eames’ very unsatisfying season 9 departure, season 10 did a lot to repair the show which had sunk drastically after a great first 5 years. 

"The Glory That Was" had some snafu with the real-life Olympic Committee or something. The episode is not in the national syndication bible, but I have seen it in listings locally. Talk about weird. Shrug.

Yeah, no doubt "Faithfully" should have been the premiere. No idea why the episodes were aired so haphazardly. I just wish the S8 DVD set had put the episodes in production order instead. With "Glory", which is completely omitted on the US set. However, I have the French S8 set (I have a multi-region Blu-Ray/DVD player) and the European version does have the episode. (I like the color better [red] on the European version, but prefer the US DVD S8 photo.)

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I know The Glory That Was pissed off a bunch of Brazilians, though I didn’t find the episode to be that controversial. I haven’t seen it on TV either, usually they skip right from Folie a Deux to Family Values. 

The whole season just seemed disjointed and uneven. 

[WendyCR72]

5 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I know The Glory That Was pissed off a bunch of Brazilians, though I didn’t find the episode to be that controversial. I haven’t seen it on TV either, usually they skip right from Folie a Deux to Family Values. 

The whole season just seemed disjointed and uneven. 

I do wonder how much of that scattered feeling has to do with the Writers' Strike of 2008. As I said, the season just seemed to peter out. But a strike will do that!

[Xeliou66]

4 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I do wonder how much of that scattered feeling has to do with the Writers' Strike of 2008. As I said, the season just seemed to peter out. But a strike will do that!

Yeah, the showrunner changed in the middle of the season as well I believe. The season wasn’t terrible, there were some good episodes, but it was a disjointed mess, extremely uneven.

[WendyCR72]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:40 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah, the showrunner changed in the middle of the season as well I believe. The season wasn’t terrible, there were some good episodes, but it was a disjointed mess, extremely uneven.

WE is on S9 in late night now. And my G/E bias aside (okay, maybe not), it still seems...ungodly dull. S8 almost looks positively energetic next to it. But then, every director/writer that season seemed new, so...

[Sigmagirl]

On 7/19/2018 at 5:27 PM, WendyCR72 said:

WE has been showing S8 during late nights, and "All In" aired a few days ago. Amazed I never heard this before, but I think the actress playing Angela flubbed on Josh's name early on. She said, "This could be really good for us, Joe." At least I'm 99% sure that was what she said.

Which makes some sort of sense since it's still pretty certain that Josh Snow was Joey Frost. But seeing as they changed his name, it's a good thing the actress spoke so low during the flub. Good episode, odd circumstances.

OK, you made me watch it again, dammit. ? And I watched the relevant part twice. And I’m sure she said Joe. But this was a DVR viewing. Maybe they dubbed it after the fact. Now I have to look at the DVD. ??

[WendyCR72]

On 7/29/2018 at 6:03 PM, Sigmagirl said:

OK, you made me watch it again, dammit. ? And I watched the relevant part twice. And I’m sure she said Joe. But this was a DVR viewing. Maybe they dubbed it after the fact. Now I have to look at the DVD. ??

Sorry. *Hangs head* It's just that episode, while good, is so damned odd! Because the history is that of Joey Frost from S5's "Cruise To Nowhere". So why the name change?! Still, yeah, Aleksa Palladino, who played Angela, definitely said "Joe" in that scene. Or I believe it. Since you seem to also think so, @Sigmagirl, I'll assume I'm not crazy there.  :-)

Hope to hear your verdict from the DVD...