S07.E07: Eloise Gardner

[Rumsy4]

41 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Alison Fernandez has weighed in on Twitter and says it's all about how you look at it. 

The kid playing Lucy?? Is that right? What are her parents doing??

I thought we went through this shit with Robin/Zelena. Even back then the fandom was divided on whether it was rape or not. To some people, it's only rape if violence or a roofie is involved. And when the victim is male, it's again hard for people to accept as such. Even if rape by deception is not legally recognized everywhere, can't these nitwits see that without informed consent, it's not consensual? At the very least acknowledge it sexual assault. Or if these writers are too dim to see it that way, didn't they have the brains to keep this controversial topic out of the requel? This is not GoT. It can't survive controversy.

ETA: Okay, I went and looked at Alison Fernandez's twitter. It's got to be an adult running her twitter, because there's no way in hell a kid's going to start tweeting about these things. Especially in such a moralizing and preachy tone. Maybe it's one of her parents. Poor judgment on their part either way.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

Quote

What I found interesting about this story is that he was very much drawn to her tower, and believed himself to be in control. Only to have the tables turned.

That is horrible. Was Whook "asking for it" by wearing such a low cut shirt, too? 

Quote

Alison Fernandez has weighed in on Twitter

No. Just...no. The child isn't even old enough to see a PG-13 movie on her own, let alone weigh in on an incredibly sensitive and adult issue where years of experience are necessary to understand the full ramifications of the problem. She probably won't even begin to fully comprehend why the plot is so sketchy until she's another decade older. Whatever adult is in charge of monitoring her social media should be reprimanded. I know she means well, but...no.

[VoicePlaya]

Ooh boy. Just when you think it can't possibly get any worse, it does. I'm starting to think that pretty much everyone on the show needs to step away from social media for a couple of days at least.

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Emma Booth is tweeting about it too?

 

Instagramming in her case. There was a person she told to stop watching the show and later blocked. There was a weird apology. Then someone shared a picture from a post in her instagram story where she tries to say that Whook gave Gothel consent, but he didn't know it wasn't really Rapunzel and that she tricked him. Um, okay. This was followed by her saying the writers write the story, not the actors and people need to separate the characters from the actors who play them. And that Gothel might be evil, but she's totally a nice person. I guess she's hurt that people are upset since they weren't trying to upset anyone. 

[Camera One]

I think what might have happened is that the actors were working on Friday night (according to several tweets), so they were naturally following the audience reaction on social media and maybe talking about the reaction.  The plotline in this episode stood out to fans due to the history of what has happened on the show several times before.  So I can see how these new cast members may find it difficult to see it from the lens of viewers who know the pattern and the lack of consequences.  Even kids watch many adult shows these days (by middle school, this is almost a given), so this show would seem tame even to them.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

What's kind of nuts to think about is that the character who kicked off the non-consensual trend in Season 1 is now the first-billed character.

[Kktjones]

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The plotline in this episode stood out to fans due to the history of what has happened on the show several times before.  So I can see how these new cast members may find it difficult to see it from the lens of viewers who know the pattern and the lack of consequences.

Yeah - I think this may go for Brigitte and Leah who both came on board as writers after Season 4 as well. While this instance was probably the most tame of all the dubious consent issues, it's part of a pattern that has been going on since S1 with no repercussions or serious acknowledgment. In other words, it didn't happen in a vacuum. People were already upset about Whook sleeping with a woman that isn't Emma and this just made it even worse.

As for the 12 year-old actress weighing in on it, all I can say is "Yikes!" Someone should really give these newbies some social media training...

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kktjones

[OnceUponAJen]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I thought we went through this shit with Robin/Zelena. Even back then the fandom was divided on whether it was rape or not. To some people, it's only rape if violence or a roofie is involved. And when the victim is male, it's again hard for people to accept as such. Even if rape by deception is not legally recognized everywhere, can't these nitwits see that without informed consent, it's not consensual? At the very least acknowledge it sexual assault.

And at the time,  Zelena was disguised as Robin's wife....who she had killed back in S3.  It was just so wrong.  The reveal made me laugh though.  It was so soap opera.

Edited November 20, 2017 by OnceUponAJen

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

No. Just...no. The child isn't even old enough to see a PG-13 movie on her own, let alone weigh in on an incredibly sensitive and adult issue where years of experience are necessary to understand the full ramifications of the problem. She probably won't even begin to fully comprehend why the plot is so sketchy until she's another decade older. Whatever adult is in charge of monitoring her social media should be reprimanded. I know she means well, but...no.

This gives me bad flashbacks of when Scott Nimefro said kids know this is a fantasy show, in reference to the Zelena/Robin debacle.

I don't find the WHook/Gothel rape offensive just for being part of the show. Yes, bad characters do bad things. Sometimes the plot demands that. But this is the show where Graham was never addressed, Guinevere got no justice, relationship abuse is glorified, adultery was approved by Snow White, and killing in self-defense is murder. This is not Game of Thrones. It's a Disney show about Disney characters. Moral uprightness is a major theme, no matter how botched up it is. We can all be absolutely certain the Gothel rape will never be mentioned again. It's a continuation of, "character does horrible thing, little to no reaction ensues".

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

This gives me bad flashbacks of when Scott Nimefro said kids know this is a fantasy show, in reference to the Zelena/Robin debacle.

Yes, and murdering someone with a fireball is still murder.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[jhlipton]

On 11/17/2017 at 10:48 PM, Camera One said:

I seriously wonder if the Writers in the Room actually hashed this all out. 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

On 11/18/2017 at 4:22 PM, KAOS Agent said:

Nothing Rogers did changes the trajectory of her story. She and Ivy were already working together. All it did was make him feel better. 

Gothel is no longer in chains and could, in theory, leave for the "outdoors" any time she wants.  Maybe a small difference, but it is a difference.

On 11/18/2017 at 8:11 PM, Camera One said:

I thought they pre-planned the basic milestone plot points of an arc, at the very least.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

@Camera One, you are soooooo funny!

[CCTC]

13 hours ago, Curio said:

Whatever adult is in charge of monitoring her social media should be reprimanded. I know she means well, but...no.

Looking at her twitter feed, I think an adult - either parent or management - is actually doing a lot of the posting.  Much of it seems like PR talk rather than how an actual kid would speak,  In some ways, that might make the feel that they needed to have Alison comment on the "seduction" even more odd and deserving of a second thought before pressing "send".

Edited November 20, 2017 by CCTC

[CinAZ]

Just watched this episode, and I have to say, even with the sketchy (non) consent on the conception of Alice, it was one of the best episodes this season.  Maybe because it had a lot of wish realm in it, making it feel like original OUAT.  Loved singing Hook. I also enjoyed the few scenes of him with his infant daughter. I want to know more about her childhood, about Hook raising her, how did she get out, get cursed.... this is WAY more interesting than Jacinda/Henry. 

I wish they would have kept Ivy a gray villain instead of full on *evil*, is more interesting when she appears conflicted.

[Watt]

Someone on Instagram called out Emma booth for telling people to stop watching by pointing out the terrible ratings lol.

[Shanna Marie]

52 minutes ago, Watt said:

Someone on Instagram called out Emma booth for telling people to stop watching by pointing out the terrible ratings lol.

Oops! That is a bad thing to say when ratings are falling. "If you don't like it, stop watching." "Yeah, looks like that's what's already happening." Or "Way ahead of you on that, according to the ratings."

I'm still trying to figure out the timeline and what events are different in the Wishverse. Did Regina know about the potential for the curse before the end of the war, when the Charmings caught her and let her go? That seems like that would have been a possible turning point, if they were able to strip her powers permanently then rather than just temporarily. Or was that the way they responded after she crashed their wedding and threatened the curse? Hook knew about the curse here, but did he get sent to get Cora, and was he tested by killing Brennan? Or did none of that happen? Is there a Liam 2.0 in his late 40s out there, and does he know about and/or want to kill his much-older (but currently looking much younger) half-brother?

All the Trousers of Time stuff in the Wishverse is more interesting than what we're seeing play out now. Maybe now that they're seeing the ratings, they'll go explore that route. They won't even have to bring back much of the original cast, since the Charmings are dead and Emma left. They could pick up other stories that might have happened if not for the curse. If time is passing at the same rate there, then they could show adult Henry as king in that world -- a king bent on vengeance after what happened to his grandparents. Dark Henry who wants to kill any and all versions of Regina could be highly entertaining.

[Camera One]

20 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

If time is passing at the same rate there, then they could show adult Henry as king in that world -- a king bent on vengeance after what happened to his grandparents. Dark Henry who wants to kill any and all versions of Regina could be highly entertaining.

If they got a Season 8 or 9, A&E would be jumping on Dark Henry for sure.  Because Henry is probably snooze-writing material for them despite being their self-insert.  They'd paint Wish Henry as super dark and evil, even though he had totally legitimate reasons for despising The Evil Queen.

Heck, they could get rid of Jacinda, Victoria and Lucy and bring back Wish versions of supporting characters like Granny, Grumpy and Blue, and it'd STILL be more engaging than what we have now.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:06 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Did Regina know about the potential for the curse before the end of the war, when the Charmings caught her and let her go?

If "The Thing You Love Most" is to be believed, Rumple gave her the Dark Curse at some point before she traded it to Maleficent in exchange for the sleeping curse she used on Snow White.

[Shanna Marie]

I had a middle-of-the-night thought about how maybe the "little girl" thing might fit with what we eventually saw with Eloise: What if the magic Gothel did when Ivy brought her the flower that had just enough magic in it was altering the curse, the way Regina suddenly came up with a "wife" for David (when I don't think Kathryn spent the whole curse thinking her husband was missing -- did she really not even check the hospital once, in that small a town?). In the early episode, Tilly might have been the person Rogers thought of as the missing girl, and the "little girl" thing might have fit, if Tilly is supposed to maybe be in her late teens to early 20s. Then Gothel altered the curse so that she was "Eloise" and Rogers would be looking for her, as a way to get her freedom and get Victoria in trouble. Or else, if Ivy cast the curse, she might have been able to alter it the way Regina did.

The thing that makes that idea not hold up so well once I think more about it is that I believe Rogers met Tilly before Gothel got the flower or Ivy found Gothel, and you'd think he'd have recognized the girl he was obsessed with finding, even if ten years had gone by. Even if she was eight when she disappeared and 18 now, there should be enough similarities to make him do a double take and look into who she was.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On November 23, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Shanna Marie said:

 the way Regina suddenly came up with a "wife" for David (when I don't think Kathryn spent the whole curse thinking her husband was missing -- did she really not even check the hospital once, in that small a town?).

I think Kathryn did. Remember, they were essentially living the same day over and over again in a fog, which explains anything people should notice but didn't. When Belle became Lacey, A&E said something to the effect that Lacey had always been Regina's backup plan bulit into the curse for Belle just as Kathryn was for David.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

As usual lately, I am way behind.  I just watched this one.  Before I even watch the next one, I wanted to say: I actually enjoyed it!  This is one (the only one so far) of S7 that I could watch again.  What?  Who saw that coming?  Not me, after the first 6 episodes were either snore-fests or cringe-worthy watching.  I like that we finally saw more of Rogers/Whook and his actual personality other than 'former fat old drunk Hook.'.  And we got to hear Colin singing again!  I love that Whook gave up his ship and revenge to care for his daughter.  Although (and I may be getting ahead of myself here) what we saw of him in the tower at the end doesn't jive with what he told Hook about having to sneak in to play chess with his daughter - unless Gothel comes back at some point, which why would she after she was free?  It seems like he should have been able to stay and raise Alice.  

They seem like they're trying to push Henry and Murderella a little harder, but it's still just not working for me.  

I kind of like Ivy as the villain: she is ruthless and dastardly.  But I have a feeling Gothel is going to be worse.

I also thought it was funny that WEQ had her magic taken away from her.  And now that there's confirmation there are three of her (kudos to whomever called that!) I wonder how long it will be before A&E decide they need to bring her over from the Wish Realm.  

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Although (and I may be getting ahead of myself here) what we saw of him in the tower at the end doesn't jive with what he told Hook about having to sneak in to play chess with his daughter - unless Gothel comes back at some point, which why would she after she was free?  It seems like he should have been able to stay and raise Alice.  

One alternative I'm thinking is if they are following the Disney movie, maybe after a while, Gothel realizes she is aging and only her daughter's tears will keep her young.  So she goes back to The Tower, but since Whook is there, her daughter is happy.  That's when she comes up with the plan to poison Whook's heart, so Alice would be forever separated from him and be sad and cry the tears she needs to stay young.  But considering she can use a Glamor spell whenever she wants, this theory probably won't be true, unless her daughter's tears can prolong her life or something.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Camera One

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 11/18/2017 at 10:51 PM, pezgirl7 said:

I actually think the actress looks older than Colin, so that made no sense to me. I was expecting her to be a teenager when he found her.

I think it's that atrocious wig they have on her head (which was especially noticeable this episode.)  When I look at her face trying not to see the awful 'hair' she looks much younger, imo.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

One alternative I'm thinking is if they are following the Disney movie, maybe after a while, Gothel realizes she is aging and only her daughter's tears will keep her young.  So she goes back to The Tower, but since Whook is there, her daughter is happy.  That's when she comes up with the plan to poison Whook's heart, so Alice would be forever separated from him and be sad and cry the tears she needs to stay young.  But considering she can use a Glamor spell whenever she wants, this theory probably won't be true, unless her daughter's tears can prolong her life or something.

Possibly that - or more likely you're theory won't be true because you've already put way more thought into this than A&E.  And what you wrote actually makes sense.  

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Although (and I may be getting ahead of myself here) what we saw of him in the tower at the end doesn't jive with what he told Hook about having to sneak in to play chess with his daughter - unless Gothel comes back at some point, which why would she after she was free?  It seems like he should have been able to stay and raise Alice.  

We know that his heart was poisoned so they couldn't touch at some point, so someone wanted them apart. That may have happened later, maybe first with him being kept out of the tower, and when that didn't work, the heart poisoning. It may or may not have been Gothel who did it.

[Camera One]

29 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

We know that his heart was poisoned so they couldn't touch at some point, so someone wanted them apart. That may have happened later, maybe first with him being kept out of the tower, and when that didn't work, the heart poisoning. It may or may not have been Gothel who did it.

The Gothel assumption would be based on what Whook said in Episode 2.  "A vengeful witch trapped her in a prison.  Every day, I'd sneak in to play chess with her. But I was discovered and punished.  My heart was poisoned.  Cursed.  So I can never save her."  It seems to be the Witch but this show can be misleading with the dialogue, so who knows.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

It seems to be the Witch but this show can be misleading with the dialogue, so who knows.

That's why I said may or may not -- vengeful witches are a dime a dozen on this show. It's probably Gothel but there are plenty of other candidates.

[Camera One]

Based on what Whook said, I still give her a 3:1 odds on being the culprit.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's why I said may or may not -- vengeful witches are a dime a dozen on this show. It's probably Gothel but there are plenty of other candidates.

Indeed, the name of an upcoming episode is "The Eighth Witch".

[darkestboy]

This show has really got to stop with that trope already. We did before with Zelena and Robin and now, Gothel and Wish Hook?

Alice being Wish Hook's daughter was predictable but not in a bad way though.

Regina having to do Drizella's work would be awful if I actually cared about Henry/Jacinda and I still don't to be honest.

Victoria got arrested and realised that Drizella was awake to.

I guess the true Big Bad of this season really is going to be Gothel when she gets all her magic back, 7/10

[Rushmoras]

My thoughts on the episode:

* So, Gander-whatever-her-name-is pretended to be Rappunzel in order to have sex with Hook, give birth to a baby overnight by magic and then leave it in her place. OK, but then why you need to masquarade yourself as Rappunzel. You said so yourself, you set a trap for her, but instead you've became trapped. Rappunzel never was in that tower. How would Hook know that you are not Rappunzel? Why not use your real face from the beginning?

* I'm actually totally lost with the jumps to the past now. So... the Wish Realm of Season 6 is actually not a Wish Realm then? Or am I missing something here?

* Can't really understand detective-Rumple. Does he know who he is or was that little "Deary" in the previous episode just a fluke?

Anyways, borring borring season. Even more borring than Seasons 5-6.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So... the Wish Realm of Season 6 is actually not a Wish Realm then? Or am I missing something here?

Apparently it retroactively always existed. Except for Emma. Who even knows. It’s not like the writers care.

[Rushmoras]

17 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Apparently it retroactively always existed. Except for Emma. Who even knows. It’s not like the writers care.

Got it, it's the writers' "We just make stuff up as we go" scenario. Nothing new.

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So, Gander-whatever-her-name-is pretended to be Rappunzel in order to have sex with Hook, give birth to a baby overnight by magic and then leave it in her place. OK, but then why you need to masquarade yourself as Rappunzel. You said so yourself, you set a trap for her, but instead you've became trapped. Rappunzel never was in that tower. How would Hook know that you are not Rappunzel? Why not use your real face from the beginning?

Yeah, it's not like Gothel was some old hag. I'm sure Hook would have shagged her in her normal form, so I, too, don't get why she'd bother pretending to be Rapunzel to a guy who has never met either of them. Unless she was expecting someone else, like Flynn Rider, and Hook showed up so she figured, any hot guy in a storm

I mean, obviously the whole thing was meant to surprise the audience and has no actual in story logic, but it wasn't all that surprising so...

[Camera One]

So Wish Hook could have gone to Original Recipe Enchanted Forest or to Alt Enchanted Forest... from the Wish Realm.  How do the realm hoppers keep everything straight.  Did Wish Regina give such specific instructions?  A witch in a tower in a faraway land has magic... no, not in THAT Enchanted Forest, it's the other one.  What was the method for travelling to that different world and back again?  More magic beans?  

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

So Wish Hook could have gone to Original Recipe Enchanted Forest or to Alt Enchanted Forest... from the Wish Realm.  How do the realm hoppers keep everything straight.  Did Wish Regina give such specific instructions?  A witch in a tower in a faraway land has magic... no, not in THAT Enchanted Forest, it's the other one.  What was the method for travelling to that different world and back again?  More magic beans?  

It's frustrating to me that the Wish Realm and Alternate Forest are connected outside of Henry. WHook had already been there years before. So out of the infinite multiverse, with infinite possibilities, how the heck did WHook just happened upon the same realm Henry did? 

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

So out of the infinite multiverse, with infinite possibilities, how the heck did WHook just happened upon the same realm Henry did? 

To quote a wise old aphorism, "Your questions are pointless." 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Considering how depraved the writing on this show is, perhaps we will soon see Mother Gothel's sister... Mother Brothel.

I feel like that term would be used for the Gothel/WHook dirty taco making.

[jay741982]

On 11/18/2017 at 9:47 AM, Stacey1014 said:

With all of the talk about Henry and Jacinda kissing to break the curse, I wonder if it will be Wish Hook and Alice that break the curse, similar to Emma and Henry in Season 1. 

I was just thinking about this the other night watching the winter finale after the events that happened 

[Shanna Marie]

Before we get into episode discussion, I would like to propose that we dial the rewatch back to one episode a week. I found that I just couldn't bring myself to watch a second one tonight, and I noticed a few comments along those lines last week. Slowing down will give people a chance to catch up, and I'm also finding that watching episodes more quickly makes the weird plotting in this season blur to the point I can't keep track of what happened and when.

Anyway, here we are with yet another rape episode, and yet another case of them hiding something that didn't need to be hidden, just to spring a surprise on the audience. Since Whook didn't know either Rapunzel or Gothel, it really didn't matter what she looked like, and Gothel is no less attractive than Rapunzel. If she'd been old and wizened and only became young again after she got the flower, it would have made more sense, but as it was, I think the only reason for the deception was so the audience wouldn't know it was the Mophead Victoria was keeping imprisoned until it was time for the big revelation.

The identity of Eloise is another one of those things where I wonder if they changed their minds in mid-stream. First, Rogers talked about her as a "little girl" when she disappeared ten years ago. Then she was more of a teenager who wrote angsty poetry in her diary. But then she turns out to be essentially a peer to Rogers, even though he was a cop when she went missing and she was supposedly a young girl. I wonder if Tilly was originally supposed to be the missing girl, and he was looking for his daughter (and not realizing it), but they wanted him to meet her sooner so they switched gears -- or maybe they did have him meet her, and it was only when they were starting to plan the episodes that led to him finding his missing girl that they had the "oh, crap!" moment and realized that if he was obsessed with this missing girl, surely he'd have figured out who she was once he met Weaver's informant. And surely Weaver would have known that his informant was the subject of a cold missing person case. So they had to abruptly switch gears.

Also, wouldn't Rumple have known that Gothel could have got out on her own at any time and that Ivy was the one really in charge, so Rogers setting Gothel free wouldn't have made much difference? But he acts like it's this terrible thing.

But I do like this episode better than most this season. It's the rare Hook flashback in which he's presented with the choice of doing the right thing or getting his revenge, and he actually chooses to do the right thing, giving up his revenge. They broke the pattern! And we're actually getting more than one Hook centric in a season, if you count "A Pirate's Life" as a Hook centric. The scene of Whook holding the baby is touching, and even more so if you recall the interview with Colin from around the time this one aired when he talked about how it got to him because he had a baby girl who was just a few months old at that time.

Also, Hook and Smee being chased by a giant garden gnome is the kind of thing I was looking for in this series that we didn't get nearly enough of.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Before we get into episode discussion, I would like to propose that we dial the rewatch back to one episode a week. I found that I just couldn't bring myself to watch a second one tonight, and I noticed a few comments along those lines last week. Slowing down will give people a chance to catch up, and I'm also finding that watching episodes more quickly makes the weird plotting in this season blur to the point I can't keep track of what happened and when.

I would be up for that.  Rewatching two bad episodes per week is tough and that was how I fell hopelessly behind until this season.  And extending our time together on our rewatch tour would be nice. 

I still think this episode was better because it featured Whook.  He seemed more honorable than the Hook of the same era.  I felt that he really did want to rescue Rapunzel and not just because he was attracted to her.  They really did have a good idea when they decided to have a baby be the thing that changed Hook.  

Still, on rewatch, the plot (especially the present-day) was less engaging.  I was so tired after work I almost dozed off at certain points in the episode. 

I kept wondering why these characters were acting the way they did.  Weaver was awake.  He would have known Ivy had the upper hand and Gothel was involved.  He was really ineffective at getting Rogers to back off and he should have had a bit more urgency, instead of going down to the storage locker to caress his dagger.  I don't get why Rumple still reported to Victoria this episode.  Why didn't Weaver tell Victoria that Ivy was awake if he wanted to ensure Mother Gothel stayed locked up?  

Meanwhile, why didn't Ivy just have Roni or Henry or whoever find Gothel chained up and they would call the police to have Victoria arrested.  This whole convoluted plan was so stupid.  Did she even need to poison that guy?  As we discussed last week, why did Ivy wait so long to get Gothel freed?  Why was Gothel was so content to be locked up?  

As for the flashback, why didn't Mother Rapunzel seduce Hook right away, in case he didn't survive the Giant Dwarf?  If he came back, then it's a bonus because she could speed up the pregnancy, but if not, she'd get to escape in 9 months.  If she wanted him to come back, wouldn't she give easier instructions for how to get the glowing flower with a warning about the Giant Dwarf?

Wish Regina told Whook, "The tower in the distant realm holds magic strong enough to defeat any mortal, like your crocodile."  Rumple is a mortal?  I thought he was the opposite.

Quote

The identity of Eloise is another one of those things where I wonder if they changed their minds in mid-stream. First, Rogers talked about her as a "little girl" when she disappeared ten years ago. T

The little girl stuff took me out of previous episodes on this rewatch.  I realized re-reading our old posts that we were already pointing this out on first watch but it was even more annoying on rewatch.

Quote

I wonder if Tilly was originally supposed to be the missing girl, and he was looking for his daughter (and not realizing it), but they wanted him to meet her sooner so they switched gears -- or maybe they did have him meet her, and it was only when they were starting to plan the episodes that led to him finding his missing girl that they had the "oh, crap!" moment and realized that if he was obsessed with this missing girl, surely he'd have figured out who she was once he met Weaver's informant. And surely Weaver would have known that his informant was the subject of a cold missing person case. So they had to abruptly switch gears.

That's an interesting hypothesis.  It would have made sense if Tilly was the missing girl that Rogers were looking for.  They could have given Tilly fake parents.  Maybe she was constantly running away from home and Rogers didn't think she was Eloise because her past was supposedly known.  Perhaps later in the season, Rogers realize there was something fishy about her parents and dig and find out she had been kidnapped and brainwashed by this couple.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

I still think this episode was better because it featured Whook.  He seemed more honorable than the Hook of the same era.  I felt that he really did want to rescue Rapunzel and not just because he was attracted to her.  They really did have a good idea when they decided to have a baby be the thing that changed Hook.  

Yeah, I feel like the Hook Prime of that era probably would have ditched "Rapunzel" and run off with the flower to get his revenge -- and then felt guilty and angsted about it in the present. See also Ursula and Ariel, as well as Liam 2.0. The baby might have done the final trick in changing him, but he'd already chosen to go back and help "Rapunzel." So, of course, this show punishes him for doing the right thing, but at least something good came out of it, since he seemed to be happy with his daughter.

This episode also takes his drinking issues seriously, with Rogers being depicted as an actual alcoholic who has hit bottom and gone cold turkey, so that just one drink would be seen as a major relapse, and he's really wrestling with the temptation when he's upset about "Eloise" having died. It makes the somewhat whimsical treatment of Hook Prime's drinking, where he carries a flask and takes or offers a swig in moments of stress, a bit uncomfortable in retrospect. It's like it would be a bit of a crisis if Rogers had started drinking, but that's exactly what Hook Prime would have done, only with his flask rather than a bottle in a paper bag, and that would have just been a piratey "character trait."

I'm not sure this episode really fits with the old, drunk Hook we've already seen, since he turned his life around here, and then at some point in the future he backslides badly and becomes a drunk while his daughter is somewhere out there, and then he goes off the booze and sort of turns around again, then turns good. But we know this backstory is a massive retcon that was nowhere near in mind when drunk, old Hook made his first appearance.

WRegina's glittery necktie thing in the flashback was cracking me up because it looked like the kind of splashy skinny ties worn by New Wave bands in the early 80s. I guess that fit with Henry's idea of a date being an 80s cover band. We discussed Henry's odd 80s obsession back at the original airing. I guess if he's in his mid-late 30s in the fall of 2017 (based on Lucy's age and other timeline things), then his curse identity would have been born in the early 80s, so would he have been fixated on things during his early childhood when he was too young to be aware of pop culture? I know my fondness for New Wave music is because it was what was popular when I was in high school, and I have zero interest or knowledge of what was popular when I was a small child.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

As we discussed last week, why did Ivy wait so long to get Gothel freed?  Why was Gothel was so content to be locked up? 

This is the part of the plan that makes no sense. Why just sit around in captivity? That's not getting any of them what they want. At the very least, Ivy should be impatient to spring the trap on her mother, even if Gothel has another agenda.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

As for the flashback, why didn't Mother Rapunzel seduce Hook right away, in case he didn't survive the Giant Dwarf?

That was also bothering me. She just sent him off, with total faith he'd come back, when she needed the baby more than she needed the flower. At least get the baby, and maybe the sex would have been good enough that he'd be more likely to come back for more and bring the flower. I guess she hadn't watched the first six seasons to see that Hook usually would ditch or betray the person he was trying to help if the chance at revenge came up.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Wish Regina told Whook, "The tower in the distant realm holds magic strong enough to defeat any mortal, like your crocodile."  Rumple is a mortal?  I thought he was the opposite.

I caught that, too. I think maybe she said "immortal" but her diction wasn't too clear and she swallowed the "im" part. But I don't care enough to go back and watch with captions.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's an interesting hypothesis.  It would have made sense if Tilly was the missing girl that Rogers were looking for.  They could have given Tilly fake parents.

The curse has to have given her fake parents, since Rogers doesn't seem old enough to be her father (though that all depends on the wonky timeline stuff, since he should be around 60, but Rogers is being treated like he's in his early 30s) and Gothel's curse identity is Eloise, who's supposedly been a prisoner all this time. Tilly's a runaway and could be the missing girl, who either ran away and deliberately stayed missing or was kidnapped and escaped but didn't go home. But if it's only been ten years and Tilly is in her mid-20s, then she'd have been in her mid-teens when she went missing, so you'd think Rogers would recognize her, especially if they did one of those forensic drawings that ages the photo of a missing kid to show what they look like now. Back in "A Pirate's Life," they introduced the missing daughter in the flashback at the same time Rogers talked about looking for a missing girl, so it sounded like it was the same person. They did say in this episode that the girl he was really looking for wasn't Eloise, so maybe Ivy was using his search for his missing daughter to motivate his cursed personality to look for Gothel.

Spoiler

I think it's in the next episode that we see that he found his daughter right away, and they were around each other but not able to get physically close up to the time of the curse, so I guess WHook wouldn't be still desperately seeking his missing daughter, and it no longer maps all that well. Up to that point, I wondered if he would only find his daughter because of the curse.

[KingOfHearts]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I caught that, too. I think maybe she said "immortal" but her diction wasn't too clear and she swallowed the "im" part. But I don't care enough to go back and watch with captions.

I rewatched the scene, and it sounded like she said "an immortal" instead of "any mortal", but her diction wasn't the best.

Edited October 5, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

"An immortal" definitely makes sense.  I guess even we have to be impressed that they added the special touch that Wish Regina can't enunciate properly, LOL.

Did we ever learn a way that someone could lose their magic like Wish Regina did?  She wasn't wearing bracelet or anything.  It would have been interesting if somehow, Snowing and Blue tricked Regina into falling into a portal into the World Without Magic.  No Curse and problem solved.  Maybe she could be in Seattle when Hyperion Heights dropped.  Perhaps she had adjusted after 28 years and had mixed feelings about her past (fairy tale worlds) coming back to haunt her.  Of course, they would need to explain how she looked the same after so many years.  Or not, because apparently it's not important, LOL.

49 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Tilly's a runaway and could be the missing girl, who either ran away and deliberately stayed missing or was kidnapped and escaped but didn't go home. But if it's only been ten years and Tilly is in her mid-20s, then she'd have been in her mid-teens when she went missing, so you'd think Rogers would recognize her, especially if they did one of those forensic drawings that ages the photo of a missing kid to show what they look like now. 

That's why I thought the only way they could have Rogers not suspect Tilly was his "lost girl" was to have him meet Tilly's parents - maybe they had just moved from Texas and was having trouble with Tilly being off her meds and running away.  He wouldn't have suspected the connection as easily.   If they had kidnapped her, they might have changed her appearance enough that Rogers couldn't tell, at least until mid-season and they could still have lots of scenes with Rogers and Alice connecting.

If Ivy and Mother Gothel had built into the Curse the fact that Rogers would be the one to free Mop Head, then that would be super convoluted.

Maybe I fell asleep but how did Rogers become convinced that Victoria Belfrey was involved in Eloise Gardener's disappearance again?   Even if she was a cold hearted real estate tycoon, it's a stretch for her to capture girls and hold them for a decade.  If Victoria was so rich, why would she do all the dirty work by herself?  She could have drugged Mop Head, put her onto a gurney and then have people move her to a different location.

I also had a question about the painting that Weaver gave Alice to give to Rogers.  How did Weaver create a piece that would fit perfectly into Eloise's notebook, if Rogers had it?  He put so much care into that, but couldn't make sure the paint was fixed?  I don't know enough about paintings to know if that could be done.  It's hilarious that Rogers cares so much about Eloise and the evidence but he spilled coffee on the precious notebook twice.  I think he said that one drop of coffee made the paint run?

Henry asked to tag along with Rogers because he had nothing else to do.  Weren't they trying to bring down Victoria and investigate her?  He also hasn't looked into the Case of the Missing Tombstones.  The fact they moved should have freaked him out.  And if he's such boyfriend material, wouldn't he be putting his extra time into getting their food truck all ready?  

Edited October 5, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Maybe I fell asleep but how did Rogers become convinced that Victoria Belfrey was involved in Eloise Gardener's disappearance again? 

I think it was because Rogers got the impression that Weaver was trying to stop him from finding Eloise because Victoria was putting the pressure on him. So if Victoria didn't want her found, he figured she had her, so he got Ivy to tell him where her mother might have hidden something. Or something like that. Compared to Lucy reading a novel and deciding that the author was her father and they were all under a curse, it's a perfectly logical chain of reasoning.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I also had a question about the painting that Weaver gave Alice to give to Rogers.  How did Weaver create a piece that would fit perfectly into Eloise's notebook, if Rogers had it?  He put so much care into that, but couldn't make sure the paint was fixed?  I don't know enough about paintings to know if that could be done.  It's hilarious that Rogers cares so much about Eloise and the evidence but he spilled coffee on the precious notebook twice.  I think he said that one drop of coffee made the paint run?

Maybe Rogers put the notebook down and Weaver got enough of a quick look at it to figure something out? My question is, how was a cop able to just keep an important piece of evidence like it was some kind of personal memento? It sounds like he's kept that journal all this time, so it's not even just since he hid all the evidence at Roni's. That kind of evidence would have been sealed up, not available for him to read at leisure with a cup of coffee.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Did we ever learn a way that someone could lose their magic like Wish Regina did?

There have been enough ways that this doesn't bother me -- there was that channeling into the crystal/heart thingy like Zelena did, and that could have worked and could also have meant that the flower might have been able to prime the pump and get her powers back. But it makes you wonder why our Charmings didn't find that sort of thing. It would have saved them a lot of trouble. They could have eliminated Regina as a threat without killing her. I'm also wondering when, exactly, it happened. Hook knew about the curse and was preparing his crew for it, so it sounds like this would have been soon after he came back from Wonderland with Cora after faking her death. As I recall, Hook first heard about the curse from Regina, and then she sent him to Wonderland. He flipped on her and came back with Cora, faking her death, and then Cora created the Coradome to protect them from the curse. This sounds like the Charmings must have zapped Regina's powers while Hook was gone, so Wish Cora must be out there somewhere. And Hook must have still killed his father, so there's a Wish Liam 2.0 out there.

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think it was because Rogers got the impression that Weaver was trying to stop him from finding Eloise because Victoria was putting the pressure on him. So if Victoria didn't want her found, he figured she had her, so he got Ivy to tell him where her mother might have hidden something. Or something like that. Compared to Lucy reading a novel and deciding that the author was her father and they were all under a curse, it's a perfectly logical chain of reasoning.

Yes, by this show's standards.  It's still too hard for me to buy, though.  They needed to have Rogers discover more about Victoria over the past couple of episodes.  They created the whole 3 Musketeers (Roni/Rogers/Henry) pact to fight Victoria, but the Writers barely did anything with it.  They seemed to get impatient and started just waking everyone up and revealing that Victoria wasn't actually the one they should target.  

Quote

My question is, how was a cop able to just keep an important piece of evidence like it was some kind of personal memento?

LOL, the extent of the Writers' knowledge about how police work.  I also love how Weaver treats the police evidence room like his own personal storage locker.  Like no one else would ever go down there and discover his dagger, right?

Quote

There have been enough ways that this doesn't bother me -- there was that channeling into the crystal/heart thingy like Zelena did, and that could have worked and could also have meant that the flower might have been able to prime the pump and get her powers back. But it makes you wonder why our Charmings didn't find that sort of thing. It would have saved them a lot of trouble.

It doesn't bother me either.  I was just curious, and wondered if the Writers had anything in mind for what actually happened.  LOL, they definitely didn't but it could have given us another Wish Regina flashback that might have been better than some of the horrible flashbacks we did get.

It's ridiculous that we're supposed to get shivers to see Mother Gothel free, as if it were a huge game-changer, but Ivy could have freed her at any time. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

They needed to have Rogers discover more about Victoria over the past couple of episodes.  They created the whole 3 Musketeers (Roni/Rogers/Henry) pact to fight Victoria, but the Writers barely did anything with it. 

Yeah, now that I think about it, what did they do? There was the great community garden scandal, with Rogers arresting that official for having an envelope of money and then having that backfire on him when the official (rightfully) was immediately released, and I guess Henry got a blog post out of it (because they traveled back in time to 2004 instead of to 2017). And that's about it. From an amateur sleuth standpoint, maybe it would have been enough to suspect Victoria was involved since she was interfering with the investigation, and from there following Victoria might have led to a breakthrough, but a cop needs more than that. "I think she might be meddling with the investigation, but I have no evidence" isn't enough probable cause for a warrant, and he certainly didn't have enough of an idea of what was going on to claim exigent circumstances and knowing that someone was in immediate danger. Heck, even if they'd just had Ivy show him the security monitor stuff as a way of getting back at her mother, that might have helped.

Spoiler

As I recall, Victoria does get immediately released because none of the evidence would hold up.

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

From an amateur sleuth standpoint, maybe it would have been enough to suspect Victoria was involved since she was interfering with the investigation, and from there following Victoria might have led to a breakthrough, but a cop needs more than that. 

Plus part of the fun of watching an investigation (in a typical police procedural) is to see the "heroes" track down clues and make deductions before they catch the villain.

We did see Rogers deduce the painting was a fake, but then he immediately decided Victoria was involved in the killing of the guy with the tattoo, demanded Ivy give him the tracking information for Victoria's car (which she did solely because he was conveniently playing right into her plans) and bam, case solved since he conveniently found Victoria red-handed in a dark warehouse with Mother Gothel.

The story was so simplistic it was boring.  

37 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess Henry got a blog post out of it (because they traveled back in time to 2004 instead of to 2017). 

I'm not sure what Henry was trying to accomplish with that either. It wasn't like people starting boycotting Victoria's company or anything.  

Spoiler

Because from here on out, isn't real estate a moot point?  I seriously didn't even remember that Victoria got released right away.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

On 10/5/2019 at 1:16 PM, Camera One said:

That's why I thought the only way they could have Rogers not suspect Tilly was his "lost girl" was to have him meet Tilly's parents - maybe they had just moved from Texas and was having trouble with Tilly being off her meds and running away.  He wouldn't have suspected the connection as easily.   If they had kidnapped her, they might have changed her appearance enough that Rogers couldn't tell, at least until mid-season and they could still have lots of scenes with Rogers and Alice connecting.

I don't know that it even has to be that complicated. Just keep Rogers from meeting Tilly directly for a while -- if he's with Weaver when Weaver meets with Tilly, she's got her hood up and covering her face or stays in the shadows, so Rogers never gets a good look at her, or she slips into the back seat of the car to speak to Weaver, then jumps out. They only meet her at night. Rogers could still be compassionate about her without realizing she's the missing girl he's obsessed with. Weaver might know who she is but not really care or know she had a reason for disappearing. I think it almost could have worked right up to the point that Rogers is playing chess with her. Since she seems to be in her early 20s, that would have made her in the 11-14 or so range when she went missing, which nicely puts her in the range when she could have still been considered a "little girl" but also would have been of an age to write angsty poetry in her journal.

Really, it's so perfect that it's hard not to believe there was a last-minute swerve, like when Colin got a script about Rogers realizing Tilly was his lost girl, he remarked (like he did about the motorcycle at Comic-Con) that Rogers wasn't much of a detective if he could play chess with the girl he was obsessed with and not realize it, the writers went "oh, crap!" and had to change it, so in the next episode he's suddenly looking for someone else and they've gone from "little girl" to angsty teenager.

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

Plus part of the fun of watching an investigation (in a typical police procedural) is to see the "heroes" track down clues and make deductions before they catch the villain.

I think the problem here is that they didn't care about the process. The part that mattered to them was the Shocking!Twist! of revealing that the missing girl was Gothel, who was Alice's mother, in the same episode it was revealed that Tilly/Alice was Whook's long-lost daughter. Who cares about Rogers investigating when all that matters is the audience seeing Gothel.

They're neither plot nor character-driven writers. They don't care about developing anything. It's all about hitting the big moments without any consideration for building what happens in between. That becomes more glaringly obvious when you watch on DVD without commercial breaks. They seem to reverse engineer everything from the shocking moment that ends each act before they go to commercial. Without the actual breaks, you just have a lot of nothing, then a shock, followed by a lot of nothing, and then a shock.

It occurred to me that there's one other way that Whook was a better person than Hook Prime: Whook was gathering his crew to get on board the Jolly Roger in preparation for the curse, but it seems like Hook Prime ditched his crew and went solo. At least, Smee was caught up in the curse, and there was no crew when Hook and Cora sailed to Storybrooke (though it seems like Hook had a crew when he encountered Nemo during the curse, so maybe it was just Smee who wasn't in the Coradome, but then did he ditch the rest of the crew somewhere else along the way?).

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Just keep Rogers from meeting Tilly directly for a while

That does make it less complicated, but one of the best aspects (or I should say practically the only good aspect) of 7A for me was seeing Rogers and Alice interacting, so I was trying to think of a way to not lose that and yet still have Alice be the missing girl that Rogers was seeking. 

There would be better payoff if Rogers builds a connection with Alice, only to realize that she really was the girl he was looking for all along.  Plus it would create a clear goal.  

In the way they built this arc, Rogers was seeking the woman who raped him, which was totally unsatisfying, not to mention frustrating.  

Spoiler

Though as we will discuss in future episodes, there was practically no follow-up between Rogers and Eloise after she was found, so the storyline screeched to a grinding halt.

After this episode, I anticipated Rogers interacting with Eloise a lot and maybe becoming suspicious over time.  Will we see Eloise reuniting with her parents, who had thought the "little girl" was lost forever?  Will we see Rogers helping Eloise to re-adjust to a life of freedom?  Will we see Rogers continuing to investigate why Victoria captured Eloise?

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They're neither plot nor character-driven writers. They don't care about developing anything. It's all about hitting the big moments without any consideration for building what happens in between.

They seem to reverse engineer everything from the shocking moment that ends each act before they go to commercial. Without the actual breaks, you just have a lot of nothing, then a shock, followed by a lot of nothing, and then a shock.

That is so true.  It bothered me whenever A&E claimed to be character-driven.  They think doing standalone centrics about a character meant they fulfilled that.  Yet they were also not plot-driven either because they could not plan a coherent series of events.  You'd think that would be easier with a reverse-engineering frame of mind, since they would simply have to work backwards.  In this episode, in the present-day, they were working back from "Eloise Gardener was actually Mother Gothel!" and in the flashback, they were working back from "Rapunzel was actually Mother Gothel, who was actually Alice's biological mother!".  Every episode can be summed up with two "shocking" twists.

Quote

but it seems like Hook Prime ditched his crew and went solo. At least, Smee was caught up in the curse, and there was no crew when Hook and Cora sailed to Storybrooke (though it seems like Hook had a crew when he encountered Nemo during the curse, so maybe it was just Smee who wasn't in the Coradome, but then did he ditch the rest of the crew somewhere else along the way?).

I doubt A&E could answer that one, LOL.  

Edited October 6, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Unpopular opinion: I wish we could've gotten more Wish Regina. She would've been more entertaining and interesting than Roni, especially if there was some kind of time skip like they did with WHook. How did losing her powers affect her? Did become a Pirate Queen? Was she able to seek redemption in another way, similarly to WHook? 

It would've been funny if Roni had actually been Wish Regina... which makes me wonder. When Henry summoned everyone, it summoned both Hook's by not both Regina's, so does that mean Wish Regina died?

WHook seemed surprisingly chill hearing Regina had failed to cast the curse. Didn't he murder his father and go all the way to Wonderland because Regina promised he could kill Rumple? What about Wish Cora? WHook had zero reasons to trust Wish Regina.

Edited October 6, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

That does make it less complicated, but one of the best aspects (or I should say practically the only good aspect) of 7A for me was seeing Rogers and Alice interacting, so I was trying to think of a way to not lose that and yet still have Alice be the missing girl that Rogers was seeking. 

There were only a couple of episodes between Rogers meeting Tilly and him finding "Eloise," so there's not a lot to lose. It would lose the chess scene and him pushing her in the wheelchair, and those were nice bits, but I think there are some possible workarounds. Say, Tilly keeps a hood up and over her face during the early meetings with Rogers and Weaver in "Beauty," and she scurries away when Rogers shows up to find Weaver shot. She'd know that she's a missing person, so she'd be leery of Rogers, a relative stranger. He'd be worried about her and trying to find her. He searches in her hideout, sees a chess game set up, and makes the next move before leaving. The next time he comes looking for her, the next move has been made, and he's amused as a game begins between them. He runs into her at night when she has her hood up, etc., and then he figures out who she is, maybe based on clues he finds at her place. Or something. I guess the investigation would have to change if there's no wacky conspiracy, if she's just a runaway girl who doesn't want to be found. He would have to figure out who she was based on the fact that he knows her pretty well because of having studied her.

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would've been funny if Roni had actually been Wish Regina... which makes me wonder. When Henry summoned everyone, it summoned both Hook's by not both Regina's, so does that mean Wish Regina died?

Maybe it was because the Hooks had the other bottle(s) in order to receive the message. I wasn't entirely clear on how that worked, and maybe I'm conflating it with the shell phone, where both ends had to have one.

[tennisgurl]

This shows tendency to just bumble into sexual assault and then never deal with the consequences is always one of the worst things about it. Its so creepy and disturbing (going all the way back to Regina raping and murdering Graham) and the show just brushes it off every time, no matter how many peoples consents have been violated. We get that again here with WHook and Gothel, and yeah she is definitely a villain and therefore a bad person, and WHook is clearly horrified when he realizes the truth, we never really get any acknowledgement of this particular and horrible crime she committed, and we never get much of his reaction to being sexually assaulted through rape by deception. Lots of genre shows do really messed up stuff with consent through magic or science fiction (sleeping with someone in someones elsses body, love potions or mind control, etc) but I cant think of many shows that did it so many times, handled it so poorly over and over again, and had writers that so quickly brushed off the many rapes they wrote into their show with variations of "its magic now shut up" because the writers arent smart enough to really deal with these issues that they bring up. Its really creepy, and its insane that it just keeps happening! At least with other shows that use rape as a plot device, they at least know that rape is a big deal and a horrible thing to happen to a person, even if they dont handle anything else about it well at all. A&E just keep writing rape as a plot device accidentally because they really struggle with understanding consent.

Edited October 7, 2019 by tennisgurl