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S03.E06: Helen Hunt


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As so many have said, dropping Helen off at Themyscira was so perfect. I'm guessing she'll never be seen again, but if she is I'd love to see her in like 2400 or something as an immortal Amazon warrior now using her curse to get male opponents to fight each other or let her get into position to shank them in addition to her well trained combat skills.

17 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I liked seeing Sara, Amaya, and Zari taking charge (you see, The Flash?  You can have an episode with your women characters front and center, and not whack us over the head over how "awesome" you are for being down with girl-power and feminism),

This episode demonstrates how one does a "Girl Power" episode right, with subtlety and that comes out of the characters not artificially injected into them for an episode like they did on Flash. In fact, it wouldn't even have occurred to me that this was anything resembling a "Girl Power" episode if I hadn't come onto these forums and that's how it should be.

On a similar note, I really love how they didn't do a "now YOU know what it's like!" racism episode either, I don't care how realistic it might have been that's never been done well in the history of fiction. It's the 1930s and Professor Stein switched bodies with a black man so it was well positioned for such an episode, but fortunately they didn't even reference the fact that Jax, Zari, and Amaya were black unlike some other episodes that have taken place in the past and the episode was much better for it.

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Another fun one.

I liked seeing yet another scene of Sara and Amaya pulling up in a time-period appropriate car in time-period appropriate dress and saying something snarky before driving away.

This interpretation of Helen's beauty/affect on men was a bit much.  But ok it worked for their plot.  Given that the whole myth surrounding her is more about the men in her life than really about her, it is a nice piece of character actualization to see  her admiring the warrior women, coming through in a crucial moment to help Amaya, and having Zari drop her off in Themyscira.

Also, nice little throwaway bit, the scene in he party with Hedy Lamar putting food in her purse.  Apparently when her career went into decline, Hedy became a bit of a shoplifter.  So it was a little presage of things of come because Helen was prematurely putting her career in decline.  I did like the emphasis on her scientific genius.  Even though she got the patent for the radio wave thingy, she dabbled in all sorts of inventions.  She dated Howard Hughes who bankrolled a lot of her tinkering.  He thought she was a bona fide genius.  And the only reason i know all this because there was a Google Doodle on her last year that led me down a rabbit hole of discovery because I found it fascinating to learn she had created a scientific invention.  Also they did a good job of casting the actress who played her.

The Freaky Friday situation was well done.  I thought both actors did a great job in the personality switch.

and finally, I always like how they mix & match the Legends to get the various characters to work off each other.  Amaya and Ray haven't had a ton of opportunity to really work together so I thought it was a nice choice to have Ray be the one to talk to her about Kuasa.

Edited by DearEvette
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The old time credit sequence and Themyscira, don't you just love this show?

The Helen of Troy plot was brilliantly done this week and I loved the scenes she had with Sara, Zari and Amaya.

Sara discovering the Damien/Eleanor connection and Amaya learning that Kuasa is her granddaughter, both scenes were handled well. Damien had some great moments this episode.

The Freaky Friday bit with Jax and Stein was hilarious, really well done.

Not a lot of Ray, Mick and Nate but the episode didn't suffer too much from that though, 8/10

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My single favorite moment in the episode though was after Nate complained how the super computer wasn't much help with research into the anachronisms and Gideon rather sharply said "Watch yourself, Mr. Heywood." Yeah, Nate, don't forget she controls the environmental systems, the airlocks, and your ability to get into or out of your room.

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I just love that Gideon's so snarky now. She really is part of the team. 

In mythology Helen is the daughter of Zeus, so that would make her Diana's half sister. So her power can come from being a demi-god and Zari basically brought her home.  

Edited by Sakura12
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There are versions of the Trojan War myth that has Helen hidden away in Egypt the whole time with a phantom taking her place.  The idea being that the real Helen wouldn't have gone along with everything that was happening around her while the phantom did what it was programmed to do.  So Helen's desire to stay, and then Zari taking her to Themyscira fits that version nicely.  Plus it meant we ended on Themyscira which is never a bad thing.

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11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I just love that Gideon's so snarky now. She really is part of the team. 

In mythology Helen is the daughter of Zeus, so that would make her Diana's half sister. So her power can come from being a demi-god and Zari basically brought her home.  

And because of her being the daughter of Zeus by the mortal woman Leda, she is also immortal, as is her brother Pollux.  Her half-sister Clytemnestra and her half-brother Castor are mortal because they were the offspring of a mortal man, Tyndareus, and Leda. So yes, Helen would still be alive even in 2017 and, with her memories of the Legends and of time-travel intact, she could be a kick-ass addition to the team if they asked her to and if she wanted to be.

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1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

And because of her being the daughter of Zeus by the mortal woman Leda, she is also immortal, as is her brother Pollux.  Her half-sister Clytemnestra and her half-brother Castor are mortal because they were the offspring of a mortal man, Tyndareus, and Leda. So yes, Helen would still be alive even in 2017 and, with her memories of the Legends and of time-travel intact, she could be a kick-ass addition to the team if they asked her to and if she wanted to be.

I was reading the Wikipedia entry on Helen last night and her story is seriously weird.  For starters, she hatched from an egg.  Yes, I'm serious.  

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5 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I was reading the Wikipedia entry on Helen last night and her story is seriously weird.  For starters, she hatched from an egg.  Yes, I'm serious.  

All four of Leda's children did because Zeus seduced her in the form of a swan at about the same time that she got pregnant with Tyndareus's children. Helen and Clytemnestra came from one egg, and Castor and Pollux came from the other.  So Helen has a fraternal twin brother (Pollux) who is immortal like her and a mortal half-sister (Clytemnestra) and half-brother (Castor).  And if Castor, Pollux, and Clytemnestra sound familiar to you, they should.  Castor and Pollux eventually became known as Gemini, the Twins, and Clytemnestra was the mother of Iphigenia and Orestes.

Let's see the Legends deal with THAT family tree!

Edited by legaleagle53
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1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I was reading the Wikipedia entry on Helen last night and her story is seriously weird.  For starters, she hatched from an egg.  Yes, I'm serious.  

I am actually a huge mythology dork, and Helen and her family is just a total mess of mythological crazy. Thats why her being magically able to attract men didn't bother me, I just assumed it was because she was half god and that was her weird power. Lots of Zeus's kids had weird powers, maybe because Zeus was always screwing anyone who he could get his hands/wings/claws/hoofs/winds on. Technically, I think Diana and Helen might even be half sisters, depending on the iteration! 

Edited by tennisgurl
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This was a great episode. A lot of fun and humor (seconding HunterHunted's appreciation of the Trojan Horse gag), and I thought both Drameh and Garber nailed one another's mannerisms in their switch up. That first scene of them in the Waverider, I swear the grins on the faces of the rest of the team were them genuinely trying not to crack up. I bet the outtakes from this episode must be hysterical.

I liked Darhk here in his lighter moments; when he starts to get back into his "I'm so EEEVIL" portrayals, he loses me again. He is much better on this than he was for most of Arrow, though.

Enjoyed the Themyscira Easter Egg. If we can't get Wonder Woman, maybe we can get Wonder Girl or (better yet) Donna Troy? That would be all kinds of awesome.

Zari has been a good addition to the cast, though I'm sad that Amaya has been relegated to playing "exasperated at Nate's flirting with other women" for much of the last couple of episodes. That changed by the end, though, which is good.

LoT lost me with the second and third episodes (I even fell asleep during both), largely because of the dumb Time Bureau stuff. Perhaps not surprisingly, now that the TB seems to have shuffled off for the most part, I'm getting back into the show, and it seems to have more energy. 

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Or they can rewrite Donna Troy's back story again (make her the daughter of Helen) and we can meet her. She probably won't be in the movies. 

This would rock. They need to do this.

Edited by Cthulhudrew
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On 11/14/2017 at 7:10 PM, Primal Slayer said:

There are plenty of other well known Amazons they can bring on if given the chance. 

Nubia!  (If there are that many PoC on a scifi/fantasy show, will the universe explode?)

On 11/14/2017 at 9:26 PM, MarkHB said:

I am guessing that "K&G Pictures" was a reference to Klemmer and Guggenheim.

Nice!

On 11/15/2017 at 2:41 AM, kismet said:

Lastly, random complaint - I did not like the title. I couldn't help but think of the real Helen Hunt and wonder if there would ever be a reference to her.

I thought it was a reference to the Red Skelton joke (which precedes the actress):
 

Quote

 

Helen Hunt the author (could now be Helen Hunt the actress) was entering
church one Sunday when she spied a ladies purse on the sidewalk.  There
was no identification in the purse so she told the minister of her find
and he said he would make an announcement.

As the service got underway, the minister announced:

"If anyone has lost a purse, they can go to Helen Hunt for it."

 

16 hours ago, DearEvette said:

This interpretation of Helen's beauty/affect on men was a bit much.

I actually would have preferred if they used an actress like Nia Vardalos (who is actually Greek!)  instead of a very modern and Euro-centric concept of feminine beauty.  How much more fun to see a woman who's not "conventionally" beautiful turning all the heads?

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I like that Nate kind of toned down the "bro-silly" in this episode.  He fell for Helen, but so did almost every other guy (except Stein, who was busy "falling" for Hedy Lemarr).  Nate was also the one who spoke up for removing Helen because of the damage she was (unintentionally) doing.  I also like that while Mick is far from the smartest of the Legends, he's probably overall one of the shrewdest, quickly spotting the holes in Darkh's offer and gauging the likely consequences of accepting it.  Even Ray shone with his interactions with Amaya.  I love how every member of this team has good chemistry/sparks/what-have-you with every other member of the team.  There's no point where you think "Oh, God, don't ever put those two in a scene together (Oliver/Laurel, Caitlin/Iris)."  Everyone works really well with everyone else.

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Fun episode.  

I do think the title is both a reference to a literal hunt for Helen (of Troy) as well as the actress.  Since the episode involved another actress, Hedy Lamarr.

I'd like to think of it as a poke at how Helen Hunt's career has completely ranked ever since she stole the Oscar from Judi Dench who was amazing in "Mrs. Brown".   Hollywood apparently felt so bad about it that they gave an Oscar to Dame Judi for an 8 minute cameo in "Shakespeare in Love" the very next year.  Helen has all but disappeared, and no, I don't count her so-called comeback as a sex therapist in that movie a few years ago, because she's still not doing much.

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11 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'd like to think of it as a poke at how Helen Hunt's career has completely ranked ever since she stole the Oscar from Judi Dench who was amazing in "Mrs. Brown".

Which, of course, is completely unfair for Ms Hunt.  She (and her agent, and the studio) simply submitted a entry for consideration.  As far as I know, she didn't bribe or threaten the Members of the Academy.  She won simply because they thought she was better (and they've never been known for having great taste).  So as usual, a woman is being punished for something she had no part of.

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On 11/16/2017 at 10:30 PM, jhlipton said:

I actually would have preferred if they used an actress like Nia Vardalos (who is actually Greek!)  instead of a very modern and Euro-centric concept of feminine beauty.  How much more fun to see a woman who's not "conventionally" beautiful turning all the heads?

It wouldn't have been believable.  Helen of Troy had the classic beauty of the goddesses, and when Aphrodite bribed Paris to award her a golden apple that had been promised "to the fairest" of the goddesses, the bribe was the hand of "the most beautiful woman in the world."  When Paris collected on the bribe by stealing Helen from her husband Menelaus after awarding Aphrodite the apple over Hera and Athena, that was what started the Trojan War.  Nia Vardalos is pretty, but she'd never qualify for the title of "the most beautiful woman in the world." Only a woman as perfectly beautiful as Aphrodite herself would so qualify.  And Aphrodite herself was a blonde in classical mythology, incidentally. 

Edited by legaleagle53
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22 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'd like to think of it as a poke at how Helen Hunt's career has completely ranked ever since she stole the Oscar from Judi Dench who was amazing in "Mrs. Brown".   Hollywood apparently felt so bad about it that they gave an Oscar to Dame Judi for an 8 minute cameo in "Shakespeare in Love" the very next year.  Helen has all but disappeared, and no, I don't count her so-called comeback as a sex therapist in that movie a few years ago, because she's still not doing much.

Not familiar with the specific scenario your are referring to. But it is not uncommon for the Oscars to award an actor for another role in a less competitive year. A lot of people could point to many Oscar winners that were awarded for one movie, when perhaps they really deserved it for an earlier movie. It's also been said that sometimes Actors receive an Oscar more for their body of work than necessarily just that one role, its just that one role that enables to the group to vote them in. Unfortunately, the Award season is never as fair or simple as it seems, and every season varies in depth of talent. Some seasons are far more intense than others. Although I doubt Helen Hunt ever did anything to steal an award.

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2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

It wouldn't have been believable.  Helen of Troy had the classic beauty of the goddesses, and when Aphrodite bribed Paris to award her a golden apple that had been promised "to the fairest" of the goddesses, the bribe was the hand of "the most beautiful woman in the world."

Because everything on this show is soooooooooooo believable!  LOL

1 hour ago, kismet said:

But it is not uncommon for the Oscars to award an actor for another role in a less competitive year. A lot of people could point to many Oscar winners that were awarded for one movie, when perhaps they really deserved it for an earlier movie.

Denzel won his Best Actor award for Training Day, not for Philadelphia or Malcolm X.  A lot of people thought the Training Day award was consolation for them skipping his earlier movies.

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The only thing that really bothered me about this episode is the not-so-subtle ageism that was expressed through the constant recital of Professor Stein's problems with his aging body.   I mean, when has Professor Stein ever before been reduced to nothing but the stereotype of the feeble old man who apparently is lucky he can even still function upright?

Edited by legaleagle53
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19 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Which, of course, is completely unfair for Ms Hunt.  She (and her agent, and the studio) simply submitted a entry for consideration.  As far as I know, she didn't bribe or threaten the Members of the Academy.  She won simply because they thought she was better (and they've never been known for having great taste).  So as usual, a woman is being punished for something she had no part of.

You also need to take into account that they - agents, managers, studios, producers - campaign for the awards like it's homecoming. They send a copy of the film with a goodie bag filled with all kinds of expensive things to sway the voters, along with more ads and meet and greets with cast and the director and producers. There is more to winning an Oscar than just a good performance.

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On 11/17/2017 at 6:30 AM, jhlipton said:

I actually would have preferred if they used an actress like Nia Vardalos (who is actually Greek!)  instead of a very modern and Euro-centric concept of feminine beauty.  How much more fun to see a woman who's not "conventionally" beautiful turning all the heads?

As others have already pointed out there's nothing modern or Euro-centric behind a blonde Helen - that's how she's always been described (just like Alexander the Great - though that's no excuse for that wig). Bar Paly who played Helen is of Jewish Russian descent. The idea of casting someone non-conventionally beautiful (good luck with that casting call) is intriguing as we know beauty standards can change and since Helen's spell was super-natural - but I cut the show some slack here. They wanted us to immediately catch on that the beautiful blonde woman in the Greek costume was Helen of Troy - time anomaly of the hour. Following the established iconography for Helen was the easiest way to accomplish that.

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10 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

As others have already pointed out there's nothing modern or Euro-centric behind a blonde Helen - that's how she's always been described (just like Alexander the Great - though that's no excuse for that wig). Bar Paly who played Helen is of Jewish Russian descent. The idea of casting someone non-conventionally beautiful (good luck with that casting call) is intriguing as we know beauty standards can change and since Helen's spell was super-natural - but I cut the show some slack here. They wanted us to immediately catch on that the beautiful blonde woman in the Greek costume was Helen of Troy - time anomaly of the hour. Following the established iconography for Helen was the easiest way to accomplish that.

And by the way, using an actress of actual Greek descent would still be "Euro-centric" -- the last time I checked, Greece was still part of Europe.

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6 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

The only thing that really bothered me about this episode is the not-so-subtle ageism that was expressed through the constant recital of Professor Stein's problems with his aging body.   I mean, when has Professor Stein ever before been reduced to nothing but the stereotype of the feeble old man who apparently is lucky he can even still function upright?

Jax is a healthy, athletic person in his mid-twenties who found himself in the body of a relatively sedentary person in their late 60s.  Of course that's going to throw the physical difficulties Stein has into sharp relief.  Plus, by doing this we as the audience get an understanding of what Stein is feeling and a better understanding of another reason Stein would like to get off the ship and spend his time with his wife, daughter and grandchild instead of continuing to gallivant through time.

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6 hours ago, jelaine said:

You also need to take into account that they - agents, managers, studios, producers - campaign for the awards like it's homecoming.

Of course -- but all the parties do this and Hunt had no say in what goodies they put in the baskets.  I'm sure Dench's "people" sent baskets as well.

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On 11/16/2017 at 10:58 PM, tennisgurl said:

I am actually a huge mythology dork, and Helen and her family is just a total mess of mythological crazy. Thats why her being magically able to attract men didn't bother me, I just assumed it was because she was half god and that was her weird power. Lots of Zeus's kids had weird powers, maybe because Zeus was always screwing anyone who he could get his hands/wings/claws/hoofs/winds on. Technically, I think Diana and Helen might even be half sisters, depending on the iteration!

Yeah I am a huge mythology dork too.  Took Latin for five years.  Ancient Roman (and Greek) history and myths get rolled up in that.  And I agree about Helen's family.  In fact she is the least interesting part of her cray-cray family, imo (Clytemnestra, Agamemnon & their family tragic soap opera is my favorite).  But Helen  was definitely the fairest woman in the land and all the Greek princes wanted her before she married to Menelaus, but the fighting over her that this ep ran with was a bit much, imo.  In fact, the only reason she launched 1,000 ships is because the Greek princes were all strong armed into going to war.  Most of them just wanted to stay home rotate crops and not even be bothered that she ran off with Paris.  But they had made an oath to her father.  So they had to go running after her ass.

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On 11/16/2017 at 10:34 AM, scarynikki12 said:

There are versions of the Trojan War myth that has Helen hidden away in Egypt the whole time with a phantom taking her place.  The idea being that the real Helen wouldn't have gone along with everything that was happening around her while the phantom did what it was programmed to do.  So Helen's desire to stay, and then Zari taking her to Themyscira fits that version nicely.  Plus it meant we ended on Themyscira which is never a bad thing.

Another mythology geek here and I always liked that version, which came from Herodotus.  She was aided by the Queen and the priests of Hathor who sent Helen's ka to Troy instead.  It worked until the old pharaoh died and the new one wanted Helen as well, but the Queen and her attendants helped Helen escape when Menelaus's ship docked in Egypt on the way home from Troy and the ka vanished.

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16 hours ago, Lugal said:

Menelaus's ship docked in Egypt on the way home from Troy and the ka vanished.

Sounds like he pulled a mini-Odyssey!  (Troy was in modern-day Turkey, so Egypt would hardly be "on the way home"!)

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1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Sounds like he pulled a mini-Odyssey!  (Troy was in modern-day Turkey, so Egypt would hardly be "on the way home"!)

Yup.  The Odyssey was just one of the trials the Greeks faced trying to make it back home as a matter of fact it is in the Odyssey that they mention that Menelaus' ship had been blown off course to Egypt and Crete and couldn't sail so was stuck there for awhile. 

According to mythology, After the Trojan war where the Greeks won, they went a little crazy with the raping and pillaging.  By most accounts they were horrible in their desecration of the land, the people and the temples.  The Gods were pissed.  Even the Gods who were helping out the Greeks in the war like Athena, Hera and Poseidon turned on the Greeks, vowing none of them would make it home.  Athena borrowed one of her daddy's thunderbolts and tore one of the Ajax ships to pieces because he had raped Cassandra on one of her altars, she basically made him suffer. Posiedon being the God of the seas made it especially hard for everyone because they needed to take ship back home.  He played havoc with all the Greeks returning home.

Seriously the Trojan war, when not told in a stuffy, bloated movie starring Brad Pitt and George Clooney is entertaining, rip roaring stuff (minus all the raping and stuff).  And the aftermath with all the crazy prophecies, revenges, murders and the childish meddling of the Gods is soap opera goodness.  The Illiad might be a little too poetic to really get through (I liked the Odyssey better) but I totally recommend reading Edith Hamilton's version of everything.

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36 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I totally recommend reading Edith Hamilton's version of everything.

I started learning about Greek myths with a great picture book, and think I read Hamilton when I was younger.

Edited by jhlipton
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Always meant to read Edith Hamilton, it was assigned to another group of English classes my sophomore of high school - maybe I'll finally get to it.

I actually just watched the TV mini-series if Helen of Troy a few weeks ago, and it wasn't that bad. I recommend it as well for a brief visual primer on Helen of Troy.

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So, I just watched this episode earlier today, but I really did love it. Old Hollywood is something I've become very interested in since taking Film in university, so this episode didn't disappoint as I understood many of the references. I don't know all that much about Helen of Troy, but I know a bit. I was just happy to see an episode that had a lot of my historical interests in the forefront. 

I laughed really hard at the Freaky Friday stuff. Some really hilarious subtle moments with Victor and Franz portraying each other. It's worth a rewatch just to catch all the small details with their acting choices alone. 

I loved Helen of Troy, and I also loved Hedy Lamar. Both women were very strong in their roles. A lot of excellent moments with all of the women, actually. Actually, besides Stein and Jax, the guys took a backseat to the story in general, which I loved. 

I loved the Wonder Woman reference. That was badass, and a perfect way to shift history a little bit without affecting it. I also like how Zari addressed it, only to add "I hacked time." Loving it.

Such a strong, strong episode. It might be my second favourite of the season. 

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Nothing like posting over a week after watching the episode, but here goes anyway. This one was a mixed bag for me, but my main takeaways basically boil down to this:

On 11/14/2017 at 8:13 PM, Starfish35 said:

This was not one of my favorites, I have to admit.  It just felt kind of scattered somehow, and some of the notes hit me wrong, considering the real-life situation this last week.

On 11/14/2017 at 11:05 PM, Miss Dee said:

It took me a while to get into this - I think the real-life Hollywood treatment of actresses and some actors just made it uncomfortable to watch Helen lost and bewildered as men shuffled her around for their own ends.

On 11/15/2017 at 3:41 AM, kismet said:

This episode was a little topsy turvy for me. I think the real life Hollywood situations really impacted my viewing. It felt a little too close to home.

And this:

On 11/15/2017 at 1:03 PM, tennisgurl said:

It didn't need to make a big deal about it being focused on the female members of the team, it just WAS about mostly the female members of the team. Who kick ass every week, so this isn't that huge of a change.

On 11/15/2017 at 4:27 PM, kismet said:

the ladies are always highlighted every week on LoT. The females are integral to every plot, every decision, just about every moment of the show.

I'm just glad LoT doesn't seem scared or afraid to let females be everything powerful they can be. It's refreshing to watch a superhero show that is not dismissive of females. Which is why I'm very excited that Zari joined the Legends.

 

Also, Sara busting into the the mogul's compound to help liberate Helen gave me serious Peggy Carter vibes. Which made me very happy (because Peggy is every possible kind of awesome) and very sad (because Peggy's show was stupidly cancelled). I think Peggy and Sara would get along famously if they ever met. Though I realize that'll never happen, with them being from rival franchises and all, but still. I can dream. Both are compassionate, capable, intelligent leaders and can easily keep the idiots surrounding them in line when no else could ever pull it off. Hmm. Maybe it's time to rewatch Agent Carter during LoT's winter break.

Edited by Maelstrom
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