S03.E07: Off the Record

[Loandbehold]

I think in this 'verse, hell is what we make of it. If you believe you deserve to be tortured and fire and brimstone, then demons like Maze have a role. But, if your personal hell is having to relive your time, but never come up with the solution, like Reese, then that's how you suffer.

[CheshireCat]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

If we make our own hell which is just repeating annoying things, what is Maze's job? I thought hell was all fire and brimstone and being tortured by demons but now it's individual rooms of personal torment? Admittedly I kind of was half watching because I didn't care for Reece much at all, so maybe it was explained that once you get out of your own hell box you go to the torture part? IDK

They've established the individual rooms at the end of S1, when Lucifer returned and found Mom's room to be empty. However, wasn't that door chained and the chain broken?

[ketose]

Maybe Reese's hell is that he makes the same mistakes, but that he could walk out of hell at any time. Other people's hell is being tortured. Then there's Satre's hell, which is other people.

[Bruinsfan]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, John Billingsley!  I love you, but you usually always play two kinds of characters: nebbish, lovable geeks or psychotic killers.  No in-betweens!

Wasn't his character on True Blood both?

[sinkwriter]

I loved this episode. I liked the blast to the past (which I realized early in the ep when Lucifer told Reese he'd only been working with Chloe for 2 weeks), and I liked seeing the evolution of relationships (especially Linda and Lucifer's), reminding me of how far many of these characters have come. It had a great construct, and though I felt bad for Reese in the end, he did create that mess himself. (As Lucifer pointed out.)

I didn't realize the whole episode was probably one of Reese's time loops in Hell, but I did feel from the very first scene that something was 'off' because the nurse was so matter-of-fact about him having a 'brush with death.' I immediately thought, wow, either the writing sucks in this scene or she's got no bedside manner as a nurse. You might scare the patient, talking like that, lady.

So when he was closing his eyes in death in the second-to-last scene, then I was like, "Ohhhh... no wonder she was so nonchalant toward him about his health!" I half-wanted to see her come out of his Hell room with a true demon face, rolling her eyes, like, "How many times will it take before this guy finally gets it? How many times will I have to play that role for him?" LOL.

[CheshireCat]

5 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I didn't realize the whole episode was probably one of Reese's time loops in Hell, but I did feel from the very first scene that something was 'off' because the nurse was so matter-of-fact about him having a 'brush with death.' I immediately thought, wow, either the writing sucks in this scene or she's got no bedside manner as a nurse. You might scare the patient, talking like that, Lady.

That's actually one of the things I wasn't quite clear on. Did he have a brush with death on earth or did he wake up from the poisoning in Hell and his "year from Hell" actually started with him taking flowers to Linda? I'm leaning towards the latter but what made him think he could/should reconcile with Linda then?

[Mabinogia]

13 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I half-wanted to see her come out of his Hell room with a true demon face, rolling her eyes, like, "How many times will it take before this guy finally gets it? How many times will I have to play that role for him?" LOL.

Awe, this reminds me of The Good Place and Michael trying to get the demons excited about his vision. Man, I'd love to see Maze visit the Good Place neighborhood. Though she'd probably just slaughter them all so maybe not. 

[Loandbehold]

11 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

That's actually one of the things I wasn't quite clear on. Did he have a brush with death on earth or did he wake up from the poisoning in Hell and his "year from Hell" actually started with him taking flowers to Linda? I'm leaning towards the latter but what made him think he could/should reconcile with Linda then?

I took it as he died from the poisoning, so waking up in the hospital bed begins his loop anew.

[Robin the Hoodie]

My way of looking at it is that you go to hell for doing evil. Evil requires a conscious choice. Lucifer talks about punishing evil. You can be responsible for bad things but to be evil you have to know that it is terrible, know what the results will be and that it will hurt other and yet do it anyway. That lets mentally ill people and children off the hook. The guy who poisoned Chloe was in Hell because he chose paper over a human life. Reese chose to use a serial killer to try and kill Lucifer because he was sleeping with Reese's exwife. The people who are directly tortured are the ones who don't put themselves in those rooms because there isn't one life changing moment they regret. Someone like Charles Manson would not have a moment of regret. He would be tortured directly. YMMV.

I think the chains over his mother's cell were because she was a Goddess, not just a human soul. She needed more securing than usual. 

[CheshireCat]

5 hours ago, Robin the Hoodie said:

My way of looking at it is that you go to hell for doing evil. Evil requires a conscious choice. Lucifer talks about punishing evil. You can be responsible for bad things but to be evil you have to know that it is terrible, know what the results will be and that it will hurt other and yet do it anyway. That lets mentally ill people and children off the hook. The guy who poisoned Chloe was in Hell because he chose paper over a human life. Reese chose to use a serial killer to try and kill Lucifer because he was sleeping with Reese's exwife.

I don't think Reese used a serial killer because Linda was sleeping with someone else. I think he did it because he, like so many before him, couldn't handle divinity and he lost (part of) his sanity. He became completely obsessed after he saw Lucifer's devil face and I don't really consider him to have been sane afterwards. I also don't think that Resse before seeing the Devil would have worked together with a serial killer. He was ready to let it go and he seemed to be able to differentiate between right and wrong. The Reese after seeing the Devil didn't give me that impression.

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

The Reese after seeing the Devil didn't give me that impression.

While he might have justified it to himself at the time, he knew damned well that using a serial killer was wrong.  That said, everyone has done something wrong, the whole "all men are sinners" thing.  Presumably some people are able to accept the forgiveness of God/others and to forgive themselves so they don't end up in the perpetual Groundhog Day rooms of regret.  One thing that's interesting about Reese is that he doesn't seem aware that he is reliving a loop.  Charlotte and the professor both seemed aware of their situations and that was what made it Hell.

Edited November 18, 2017 by johntfs

[Snow Fairy]

I thought the entire episode is from Hell, showing what he's going trough. Didn't think something we saw happened for real the first time. Now I'm begining to wonder, when I read this...

But I don't think things happend totally like that, something was changed between his life and death. Or it did? Now I'm confused

[theatremouse]

I interpreted it to imply he did actually have some sort of life-threatening event, and did, after leaving the hospital from that event go to try to get Linda back (2 years ago), discover Lucifer there and the rest basically played out the way we saw up until his actual death. So his own personal hell is conveniently bookended by his waking up in a hospital again, and then he relives his downfall over and over in hell. The weirdness of the way the nurse talks to him is because it's a hell-based repeat, but in theory, he could've been in the hospital for real before the chain of events began when it happened in real life. Or maybe he didn't and the hospital bit is just a construct of the hell loop, but everything post-hospital is how it went down, and he's still stuck in that loop. I don't know that it really changes anything in the narrative whether he had a real near-death experience or if the "wake up" structure is only present to facilitate the loop, but I thought the show implied that the moment he showed up at Linda's and discovered Lucifer leaving was basically the moment that started his obsession with getting revenge on Lucifer, which ultimately led to his own death.

[jhlipton]

I caught on to this episode starting in the past since Lucifer says early on that he'd been working with the LAPD "for a few weeks".  By time Reese finished his "murder board", we were back up to the present with the notes about Charlotte.

And I love this shows use of color.  When Kuciufer is explaining Hell to Reese, Reese is standing in front of the stained glass, so it looks like he's in flames when the camera is on him.  Then, when he was dying, his face was lit light blue, hinting at redemption.

On 11/14/2017 at 8:12 AM, icemiser69 said:

Reese was spiraling out of control.  Someone should have stepped in and gotten involved.  Dr. Linda knew Reese was headed for trouble.

Dr Linda has a lot to answer for, as far as Reese's obsession.  He told her early on that Lucifer was the actual Devil, and she, rightly blew him off.  But when she realized he was right, she should have said something.  I felt like owed him that much!  But she let him question his sanity.  And that was wrong.

On 11/16/2017 at 2:15 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, John Billingsley!  I love you, but you usually always play two kinds of characters: nebbish, lovable geeks or psychotic killers.  No in-betweens!

Or both,  here!

[Ailianna]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Dr Linda has a lot to answer for, as far as Reese's obsession.  He told her early on that Lucifer was the actual Devil, and she, rightly blew him off.  But when she realized he was right, she should have said something.  I felt like owed him that much!  But she let him question his sanity.  And that was wrong.

I thought she hadn't seen him since around the time he said he was going to prove Lucifer is the Devil.  I don't think Dr. Linda would let him go so far off track without trying to help, and the episode left me with the impression that she didn't know about his new obsession.  When he bursts back in to her office at the end, she seems genuinely startles to see him and I got the feeling that she hadn't seen him. He was also apparently trying to hide the depths of it from people at work, but they were the ones who clearly already had reason to know he was going off the deep end, with his walls of crazy and the fact he only wrote a few articles in a year and his editor was trying to get him off that track.  I don't blame Dr. Linda--she was moving on from her ex-husband, and had no reason to track his mental health status.

[CheshireCat]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Dr Linda has a lot to answer for, as far as Reese's obsession.  He told her early on that Lucifer was the actual Devil, and she, rightly blew him off.  But when she realized he was right, she should have said something.  I felt like owed him that much!  But she let him question his sanity.  And that was wrong.

What Ailianna said. Plus, Linda had no way of knowing how learning Lucifer's true identity affected her ex. She handled it pretty well, I'd say. I'm not detecting any insanity in her, so why would/should she assume that her ex, who she hasn't seen, has gone insane/might go insane after learning of Lucifer's true identity? (And would acknowleding he was right really have made a difference since I think the obsession/insanity stemmed from being unable to handle divinity and not because no one believed him). I would assume that Linda assumed he had moved on/was trying to move on, so there was no reason for her to contact him.

[jhlipton]

8 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I thought she hadn't seen him since around the time he said he was going to prove Lucifer is the Devil.

27 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

What Ailianna said.

I dunno.  If someone told me that Satan walks among us, I'd blow them off just like Linda did.  But if I found out they were right, I'd at least make some effort to let them know -- to tell them, "Yeah, Satan is here -- how did you know, and what are you doing about it" even if I don't know how obsessed they are. Certainly if it was someone I used to love.

And it's not like Reese was hard to find -- he was still working at the paper.

[Mabinogia]

I think Linda was afraid that if she made contact with Reece again he would see it as a sign she wanted to try again, which he clearly would, because dude was looking for any little crack in her armour to worm his way back in. I think she felt it was best if she just stayed far away from him so as not to "lead him on". The guy was unhinged long before he saw Lucifer's face. She was smart to just go on with her life and stay away from him. I've had an ex like that. A simple "hello" would set him back on the path of winning me back. It wasn't fun. 

[theatremouse]

Plus from what I can tell of the timeline, at least a year passed in between his initial "he's the devil!" and her finding out that was correct. It seemed like a major moment to us from the episode, and clearly was a big moment for him, but depending on how frequently he showed up ranting at Linda (seems like possibly a lot), that initial conversation might not have registered as important or memorable to her over any other ex-husband hissy fit. So by the time she found out it were true, I could totally buy she might not have even remembered that her ex had previously suggested it. Combined with she was clearly trying to established boundaries, and possibly no-contact, it makes sense for her to not have gone back to him about it (since she had no way of knowing he was obsessed with L.)

[CheshireCat]

9 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I dunno.  If someone told me that Satan walks among us, I'd blow them off just like Linda did.  But if I found out they were right, I'd at least make some effort to let them know -- to tell them, "Yeah, Satan is here -- how did you know, and what are you doing about it" even if I don't know how obsessed they are. Certainly if it was someone I used to love.

 

If your ex was desperately trying to get you back even though it was clear it was over, would you think he is serious when he comes barging into your office claiming that the very man he is jealous of, was the devil? If it happened to me, I don't think I would think he is serious and I don't think it ever occured to Linda that Reese was serious. Maybe, if their split had been amicable, it would have made sense for her to seek out Reese and talk to him about it (ask if he had been serious/known at the time) once she learned of Lucifer's true identity. But their split wasn't amicable and even if it crossed Linda's mind, it was probably best to stay away from him and let him go on with his life (which she probably assumed he had done).

 

 

9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I think Linda was afraid that if she made contact with Reece again he would see it as a sign she wanted to try again, which he clearly would, because dude was looking for any little crack in her armour to worm his way back in. I think she felt it was best if she just stayed far away from him so as not to "lead him on". The guy was unhinged long before he saw Lucifer's face. She was smart to just go on with her life and stay away from him. I've had an ex like that. A simple "hello" would set him back on the path of winning me back. It wasn't fun. 

Was he unhinged or just very jealous? I interpreted it as the latter. Sure, some men become unhinged in their jealous state, still, I found that there was a difference between his jealousy and the state he was in after he saw Luifer's devil face. It seemed that jealousy was driving him to dig up dirt about Lucifer before he saw the face and afterwards, he became obsessed with the idea of exposing Lucifer itself and that it was obsession which was driving him.

I don't think that Linda acknowledging Lucifer's true identity would have made a difference. He probably would have wanted her to help him expose Lucifer and find proof and I doubt she would have been able to talk him out of it.

[jhlipton]

1 minute ago, CheshireCat said:

If your ex was desperately trying to get you back even though it was clear it was over, would you think he is serious when he comes barging into your office claiming that the very man he is jealous of, was the devil?

I don't think that Linda acknowledging Lucifer's true identity would have made a difference. He probably would have wanted her to help him expose Lucifer and find proof and I doubt she would have been able to talk him out of it.

I've already said that I don't blame her for rejecting him the first time, before she knew.  But after she knew, and knowing that he was obsessed, she owed to him, not just as his ex, but as a person trained in mental illness, including obsession, to help him.  We'll never know whether it would have made a difference or not, but as with the chicken soup joke, "It couldn't hurt!"

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I've already said that I don't blame her for rejecting him the first time, before she knew.  But after she knew, and knowing that he was obsessed, she owed to him, not just as his ex, but as a person trained in mental illness, including obsession, to help him.  We'll never know whether it would have made a difference or not, but as with the chicken soup joke, "It couldn't hurt!"

It could hurt Linda, who has clearly wanted to be shut of Reese, his possessiveness and his refusal to accept reality.  It could hurt her because seeking out Reese and confirming his belief that Lucifer is the Devil effectively invites him back into her life.  Also, by confirming one "insane" belief (that Lucifer Morningstar, over-the-top nightclub owner, really, truly is the Devil he "pretends" to be) it gives renewed energy to another "insane" belief (I still have a chance to win Linda back as my wife),  It could also hurt Lucifer (and anyone connected to him) by confirming to a stubbornly obsessive investigative reporter that the Devil is real and has a "secret identity." 

Figure once Linda found out Lucifer was "the Devil" and ultimately accepted it, she probably figured/hoped Reese had done the same thing.  When he didn't get back in contact with her she probably figured/hoped that Reese had done the same thing.  It might have been selfish of her, but Linda just hoped for the best as far as Reese was concerned but otherwise didn't want to reach out to him for fear of bringing him back into her life when she was finally rid of him.  Which is okay.  Linda isn't perfect and sometimes you need to be a little selfish to protect your life/sanity/wellbeing.

Edited November 20, 2017 by johntfs

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Linda isn't perfect and sometimes you need to be a little selfish to protect your life/sanity/wellbeing.

I think we just disagree on how selfish she was, and how selfish she needed to be, which is cool.

Of course, a good part of this is Lucifer's fault: If he had stopped with "Punch the sleazebag" and not advised Reese to "destroy him", the story would have ended right there! (But it's mostly on Reese -- he had no right to be angry about who Linda was seeing (or sleeping with) in the first place.  If Linda had answered the door with a child in hand, would Reese want to "destroy" her husband?

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I think we just disagree on how selfish she was, and how selfish she needed to be, which is cool.

Of course, a good part of this is Lucifer's fault: If he had stopped with "Punch the sleazebag" and not advised Reese to "destroy him", the story would have ended right there! (But it's mostly on Reese -- he had no right to be angry about who Linda was seeing (or sleeping with) in the first place.  If Linda had answered the door with a child in hand, would Reese want to "destroy" her husband?

Probably he would (though the child would have been with someone not technically her husband given that one of the manifestations of Reese's possessiveness and refusal to acknowledge reality was his refusal to sign the papers making their divorce final).

Also, while she didn't specifically bring it up, Lucifer revealed his "Devil face" to Linda within a therapy session, so Linda was bound by doctor/patient confidentially not to tell people about it even his Lucifer himself doesn't care.  Ethically she shouldn't have told Reese even when she did, but, again, Lucifer was understanding/didn't care.

[jhlipton]

8 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Lucifer revealed his "Devil face" to Linda within a therapy session, so Linda was bound by doctor/patient confidentially not to tell people about it even his Lucifer himself doesn't care.  Ethically she shouldn't have told Reese even when she did, but, again, Lucifer was understanding/didn't care.

I hadn't thought about that (of course I'm used to people breaking HIPAA and similar rules on TV All The Time, but you're right).

[TobinAlbers]

It's too bad Reese ended up cracked, accessory to murder, dead and in hell as I liked him in his early shady but nuts and determined to win Linda back mode and thought the actors had great chemistry. He'd have made an interesting love interest for her down the line.

Reese's story was really tragic; his really was a slippery slope of obsession and spiraling obsession turned insanity where there were bits of clarity and humanity and desperation but he kept just missing the lesson. I mean that really does have to burn when your ex wife likes the devil but is still shutting you down on a reconciliation. I mean....he's the devil! He's to be shunned on reputation alone! And yet Reese found himself on the outside looking in. It was almost like a Twilight Zone episode where the joke was on him. 

I did like the symmetry of his getting poison by the serial killer and it working out that he did get him caught albeit the cops were really coming for him. Lucifer looked down on him with a mix of what looked like compassion and pity as Reese faded out because he knew where that poor sucker was going and what his hell was going to be.

Now the thing that gets me is Linda's Pulitzer Prize winning ex-husband lost his shit and was accesory to murder and then murdered by the serial killer and she's shown no signs of trauma or guilt or acknowledgment of some pretty heavy shit that went down. A man she loved once spiraled out of control and was murdered. That had to affect her and now that we're privy to this event, I hope they do bring it up more as something she's processing in addition to the whole nearly killed by God's wife thing.

[Ailianna]

2 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Now the thing that gets me is Linda's Pulitzer Prize winning ex-husband lost his shit and was accesory to murder and then murdered by the serial killer and she's shown no signs of trauma or guilt or acknowledgment of some pretty heavy shit that went down. A man she loved once spiraled out of control and was murdered. That had to affect her and now that we're privy to this event, I hope they do bring it up more as something she's processing in addition to the whole nearly killed by God's wife thing.

But this part just happened in real time, so there hasn't been any chance for her to react to it.  Not saying they will do anything about it, but it's not really fair to hold them to account for something they haven't had a chance to do yet.

[TobinAlbers]

Just now, Ailianna said:

But this part just happened in real time, so there hasn't been any chance for her to react to it.  Not saying they will do anything about it, but it's not really fair to hold them to account for something they haven't had a chance to do yet.

Ahhhh, didn't realize that. Thought we were seeing one of what was many loops for Reese. But yeah if this was the original time/first loop, then we've yet to see Linda processing all this yet. Looking forward to it as Rachel Harris rocks. She'll do Linda's issues justice.

[jhlipton]

On 11/20/2017 at 5:23 PM, TobinAlbers said:

Ahhhh, didn't realize that. Thought we were seeing one of what was many loops for Reese.

Some of the notes (esp. re Charlotte) show that although this episode started at the beginning of Season 1, it ended in the the "current" time.

[ganesh]

This was really interesting. Something felt off, and then I got confused with the devil face. I thought it was something you can only do once and they pulled it off. Good actor for Reese. 

[Chaosiswelcome]

I really enjoyed this episode. Dan talking about his pudding theft was amazing.

I love what this episode did for the Canon of the universe though, talking about how humans end up in hell and also showing how the hell loop works. 

Love chloe's view on why Lucifer is involved with LAPD.

Loved seeing all the characters from someone else's lens.