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S03.E08: First Wife

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4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

One of the things that really pissed me off was when Jaime threw the fact that he'd been sending money to Lallybroch in Jenny's and Ian's faces. Um, okay, that's nice and all, but how many years have Jenny and Ian spent risking their lives to protect you from the Red Coats, Jaime? How many times was Ian thrown in the gallows but never gave you up? Hell, throwing a few shillings their way is the least you can do. 

Prior to Culloden, Jamie owned Lallybroch.  He was the laird and everyone else was his tenants.  In an effort to keep it in the family, he deeded it over to Jenny & Ian's son. Jamie literally gave up EVERYTHING to keep the people he loves safe, including, in the case of Claire and the baby, the people he loved.  So yeah, Jamie gets to throw that in Jenny's face when she starts getting ridiculous.

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I'm just going to say it: I loathe the character Laoghaire. LOATHE. I know they tried to make her a little bit sympathetic in this episode, with her backstory and her two dead husbands who may not have been kind to her, but... it did nothing to sway me. I can't stand her. She hasn't learned a damn thing in over 20 years, she's still as horrible and vindictive and homicidal as she ever was, and I rarely hate on any character but I truly want to punch her in the face every time she's on screen. Even more so when she opens her mouth to talk her trash. I hope this is the very last we ever see or hear from her. Ever, ever again.

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:27 AM, Runswithscissors said:

I guess I forgot to use the sarcasm font again.  :)  Still, Maggie has two-three kids at 20 years old.  NSWJamie has four kids at what? He's maybe 24?  Maybe not that many kids all in all, but for their respective ages...It still looks to me like Maggie has been pregnant continually since she got married and ditto for NSWJamie's wife.  With that track record and more years ahead of them, I don't think their longevity is looking so good. 

Yeah, I just don't feel all the Laoghaire hate that others apparently do - or like maybe I'm supposed to?  I don't know - I mean, I didn't like her much back in S1 after that stunt at the river, but I also consider that she was a spoiled, smitten 15 (maybe 16?) year old girl.  And 20 odd years have gone by.  And most people grow up and change from their spoiled, bratty 16 year old selves.  Now, apparently, she really hasn't, but maybe at the time of the marriage, Jamie thought she had changed also.  People do fool other people for a time at least, and it's plausible that she was able to fool him without Claire around into thinking she was a more mature, wiser woman that she was back in the day, at least long enough to get him to marry her. 

I was surprised he said they'd only been married two years.  I would have thought it was longer than that, but I can't fix how long he'd been back at Lallybroch from Helwater at that point either. 

It looked like it to me.  I didn't think it was a holiday or other special occasion where they would be visiting.  I didn't think the house was that big to have that many bedrooms.  I mean, I'm sure the kids would share - to a point anyway.  Maybe the older kids would be separate from the younger ones.  And surely the adults would have their own! 

Does no one relate to poor Laoghaire? We all love Jamie & all he loves is Claire (forever I hope)! I think it was perfectly understandable that it was Laoghaire- Jamie sent Claire to be with a man who loved her, why shouldn't he be with a woman who loved him? Jamie wasn't going to give his heart to anyone else anyway, so I actually feel sorry for Laoghaire that she ever married Jamie, as she didn't get the love she craved! Then in this episode she was extra aweful- so isn't it convenient that we hate her & that makes it so easy that she is the throw away new wife? What if Jamie had married someone nice like Mary McNabb? What ever happened to her anyway?? 

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Just started watching this  show recently.

I wish we had a spin off show about Jamie's 20 years without Claire. His life without her sounds so much better. Those 5 episodes that they were apart were my favorite episodes of Jamie.

I find it hard to believe that he'll ever marry Laoghaire, even with two sweet girls but even more so, I find it hard to believe that she was afraid of being touched by HIM- the man she wanted so desperately her whole life.

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54 minutes ago, Hook75 said:

Just started watching this  show recently.

I wish we had a spin off show about Jamie's 20 years without Claire. His life without her sounds so much better. Those 5 episodes that they were apart were my favorite episodes of Jamie.

I find it hard to believe that he'll ever marry Laoghaire, even with two sweet girls but even more so, I find it hard to believe that she was afraid of being touched by HIM- the man she wanted so desperately her whole life.

I liked all those episodes as well, & I didn’t expect to as Jamie & Claire were apart but I liked they way they did each episode with a theme instead of matching timelines. Both Sam & Cait were great at showing their characters grief & longing for each other. 

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I'm finding the writing to be deeply silly.

If Jamie had half a brain, he would have backed the hell away from those girls the second he realized they were Laoghaire's daughters. I'm sure that little dance was fun for him, but there are plenty of children out there with mothers who didn't try to have his wife burned alive.

His decision to marry her is completely absurd, especially for someone who claims to be so mad with love for Claire. Is Laoghaire the only other woman in Scotland?

And if it's so important to him to raise some children, then why not spend some time with the countless children running around Lollybroch - doing something other than teaching them how to smuggle contraband? He could have just taught Young Ian how to use the printing press, like Jenny suggested, but I suppose that wouldn't be exciting enough.

Also, why the hell would Jenny invite Jamie's new family over, when she could have just told Claire about them? What a completely horrible thing to do to Laoghaire's innocent daughters! Jenny's always seemed to be pretty reasonable in the past. But I guess Laoghaire and the girls showing up in person was more dramatic than any alternatives, so that's what we got, regardless of whether it made sense.

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On 12/3/2018 at 7:45 PM, Hook75 said:

but even more so, I find it hard to believe that she was afraid of being touched by HIM- the man she wanted so desperately her whole life.

Unfortunately, physical abuse can spoil intimate contact for people, even from those they really, really want that contact from. It's no simple matter.

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Some of us are just now seeing the third season on Netflix.

I must say--I don't like Claire this year--very childish and petty.   I think what I miss is the original "story" of what it was like being "moved" to an earlier time and original location.

 

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When they had Leery back in Season 2, I wondered if they would put her with Jaime after Claire went back to the future.  I was pleasantly surprised when that didn't happen in the episodes earlier this season showing the aftermath of Culloden but they decided to go the low road and did the obvious.  How disappointing.  Leery was more than a silly girl.  She vindictively plotted to have Claire and her friend murdered and rejoiced at the trial that she would dance on Claire's ashes.  That's just sick.  

I thought Jaime continued his unlikeable streak in this episode, blaming Claire for leaving, retorting that she wanted him to be friendly to Leery, etc.  I liked Jenny before, but her behavior in this one was rather abhorrent as well, unless no one told her what Leery had done.  When Claire told Jaime that she should never have come back, I wholeheartedly agreed.  

I'm glad they didn't go through with that fight-leads-to-sex trope.  Ugh.

And then Leery will be rewarded with treasure for another murder attempt with the gun?  

I'm not sure I want to see another frustrating rescue attempt.

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Ai yi yi...Mother of God, I just have to get this out of the way right here, right now: Leery?!? Are.You.Fucking.Kidding.Me?!?!? Does Jamie not remember the Witch trial and how Leery tried to get Claire killed - and got her friend Geillis burned at the stake?! And he marries this psycho bitch because he grows fond of her girls?!? Seriously James Alexander Malcomb MacKenzie Fraser, get ye head out of yer arse, ye ken me?! Absolutely DAFT, STUPID, nee MORONIC.

Okay, thank you for allowing me to vent, I am now ready to discuss this in a slightly more rational tone, unless we're talking about that nutjob, in which case my head might explode yet again.

Lallybroch 1766 (or so)

So here we are again in Scotland 1766 or thereabouts, and still no update from Boston, WTF Show?! I want to know what happened between Roger and Brianna FFS. I mean, throw us a 5 minute bone, yanno?

Jenny & Ian:

Why on earth didn't Jamie tell Young Ian to NOT say he'd been working with Jamie on illicit dealings? Why didn't Jamie tell the lad to keep quiet, what's wrong with these people?! I mean, Jamie had no right to get YI into illicit and illegal dealings in Edinburgh, but don't blurt out you were smuggling liquor for your dear uncle you numnut. That said, I did appreciate how Ian gave Jamie his belt and told him he could dole out the punishment, inferring that if Jamie wanted to play father to Ian then he bloody well could also deliver the lashings too. And I appreciated Jamie's 'perhaps there is another way to punish the boy' and gave him boy's work instead of man's work. Well done Jamie and hand claps to the showrunners for a good touch-back to Claire and Jamie's S01 fight and make up re: laying hands on another to teach them a lesson.

Jenny, or should I call her JANET since she's acting like a cold bitch, is cold as ice to Claire and yet Claire's story of why she was away for 20 years DOES hold water. I mean, it's plausible that she thought Jamie died at Culloden, and he thought the same of her vis a vis his story he gave Jenny, and when Jenny says she knows Claire would never not look for Jamie, well if she knows that, then the fact that Claire didn't come back to look for him says she really thought he died. That entire story line of Jenny being madder then hell made no sense because the story they were telling her made complete sense!. And if Jenny felt they were like sisters to one another, why couldn't she be happier that Claire wasn't dead after all? Again, nonsensical. I don't know if the books handle this better that the Show but I felt this was poorly handled. Also, why didn't Claire tell Jenny and Ian that she didn't come back to Lallybroch because she didn't want the red coats to follow her there and punish Ian and Jenny for harboring the wife of a treasonist. THAT makes complete sense and yet it was never uttered despite it being said in a previous episode. All that aside, may we take a moment to praise the god that is Ian Murray?! This man is loyal to a fault, seems to make better decisions than Jamie does, and although he doesn't speak nearly as often as his wife, when he does it's always golden. I nominate this comment for The Best Comment of S03 Award:

Ian: "When there's a pot 'o shite on ta' boil, ye stir it like it's God's work!"

And then Jenny has this "Oh my word I am so insulted!" look on her face, it was priceless and much needed levity after the shitty reception Jenny gave Claire and Jamie. One thing that struck me about Jenny though was that she's never been farther than Lallybroch and it's immediate environs, how absolutely sad, though not unusual for the time. But it explains why YI wants to fly the coop so badly. And there is no way Jenny could ever accept or wrap her head around time travel, in fact I'd be worried she's tell someone crazy like Leery and then there'd be another witch trial, so it's best to not tell her the entire truth.

Another cold bitch scene was when Jenny chastises Jamie with "You're an authority on raising bairns now?" How can she not know how cutting that is to her brother? How can she not get that?! I know Jamie hasn't told her all his feelings about his time after Culloden, and how he felt and why, but honestly, she sees him with the bairn before Claire and Jamie leave for Culloden, she knows how good he is with children, so she must know how badly he wanted to raise his own bairns. It's about the most cutting and vicious thing she could have said to him, I wanted to slap her silly for that....and more than slap her for calling Leery to Lallybroch! Speaking of which, if she felt Claire was like a sister to her, why on earth did she provoke Leery into that blind rage?!

Crazy Bitch:

I'm not even using my name for her as a title to this screed because she doesn't deserve even that much. As I said above, I was gobsmacked that Jamie could have made the decision to marry that crazy bitch on his own without a lot of prodding from Jenny or someone else. He knows she tried to have his soul mate not just killed but burned alive. It doesn't matter that Jamie thought Claire would never return, THAT is going too far. And the whole 'Daddy! Who is that lady?! Why is Daddy yelling at Mommy" was utter bollocks. IIRC Jamie said they'd been married a couple of years yes? And they had lived apart most of that time. So you mean to tell me that in the few months they lived in the same household, a teenage young woman and a girl of about 5ish at the time suddenly are calling Jamie 'Daddy'?! This is just stupid writing. I can only hope it's more nuanced and expanded in the books because in the Show it comes across as wholly unbelievable. And not for nothing but the girls seemed lovely and not batshit crazy like their mother in the Christmas flashback, but still, that little Joanie was adorable and more self aware than her crazy mother. And when Leery returns to try to kill Claire yet again, I mean, it's time to take this loon seriously. She shoots Jamie and runs off and then we see the scene with Ned Gowan, YEAH! I return to S01 beloved characters!!! I assumed Claire's being alive nullified the marriage to Leery so that was expected, but to pay her off after she tried to kill Claire a second time, and almost killed Jamie to boot, just NO. They should have taken the gun and gone to Leery and told her that she could either fall in line and cooperate and drop the complaint, or she would be tried for attempted murder and possession of a gun and she'd end up in prison. That ought to have snapped her back into reality. Or maybe she's too deluded for even that, I don't know, and I don't give a rats' ass either, really. I hope we've seen the last of her, finally, because like BJR, I'm just over her. That said, as crazy as Leery had been and continued to be, when she finally got what she claimed she wanted so badly, she couldn't even enjoy it/him. It made me wonder if they'd even ever slept together because it seemed like she was terrified of sex due to something that happened with her other husband(s). So all that scheming and trying to kill Claire, and for what? It's akin to having an amazing horse to ride, but being afraid to ride it now that you have it. Or wanting a huge feast and once you've gotten it, you can't eat anything. Karma's a bitch Leery. I really cannot feel sorry for this wench. At best she's deeply disturbed, at worst she knows/knew exactly what she was doing then and now.

Jamie & Claire:

First things first. Why are they in the Laird's bedroom again when he signed the deed to Lallybroch over to his nephew? Do Jenny and Ian have to move out of that bedroom every time Jamie and Claire show up?!

We finally get THE FIGHT, where it call comes out, and we get Jamie again accusing Claire of 'leaving him' and she FINALLY calls him out on that particular piece of bullshit. It's about time! When Jamie says "You left me!" it made me think that he has PTSD over Claire and the entire Culloden experience because it feels like he really does believe she 'left' him and he has no recollection that he pressed her hands to the Stones and forced her to leave. It was sort of heartbreaking though, when she was pressing him on why he hadn't told her about Leery yet and he blurted out, "Because I am a coward!" The one thing Jamie does well throughout this entire show, is project himself as the Great Protector, the Manly Man, the Man who can do anything. And now he's just broken down and admitted he's terrified of losing Claire again. We've known this for the past two episodes, but now we know HE knows it too! And just like in S01, when they had that angry make up sex back at Castle Leoch after the River Scene and the Great Spanking of 1740-something, we see another attempt to mirror a similar make up sex scene, except thanks Jenny for literally throwing cold water on everyone! Then when Claire is walking out of Lallybroch and Jamie tries to stop her, she mirrors another S01 scene again when she says, "'When you tell me something, let it be the truth', those were your words Jamie..." Nice call back to the woods scene after he saves her from the witch trial and she tells him everything about the Stones and time travel. And interestingly, in that S01 scene he's just saved her from Leery almost having her burned at the stake, and this time in S02, Leery comes to shoot her dead a few moments later. I do love these touch back mirror scenes so that was rather satisfying. And...another mirror scene when Claire is operating on Jamie, removing the pellets from his shoulder, and we harken back to that first night they met, and again at Castle Leoch when she was tending to his shoulder right after they arrived at the Castle. Jamie sort of smiles when she's done, and I think he's smiling because he loves her taking charge and caring for his wounds, he knows she's not going to leave him now.

It can't be said enough how much I'm loving Young Ian right now too. He was so cute calling Claire 'Auntie' and it was so sweet that we notice it, and then Claire mentions it. He's lovely so of course something will happen to him!

When Jamie is trying to explain to Claire about why he married Leery, and he's talking about after he returned from Helwater and none of his nieces or nephews knew him, that must have been awful for him given his love of children and his need to raise his own children that was never realized. And because Lallybroch was always his touchstone, feeling like an Outlander in his own family seat must have been nearly unbearable, because if you canna feel at home in your home, then where do ya go, ye ken? He'd already been adrift for so many years that feeling no anchor at Lallybroch would be sheer anguish. That aside, the way they presented Leery's girls, they seemed quite charming, but still, you don't marry the person who tried to have your wife burned alive. DUH.

Re: the treasure at Selkirk Island or whatever that name was, I really appreciated seeing a flashback to Jamie escaping from Ardsmuir to see if it was Claire that the old man had been raving on about as La Dame Blanch had returned. I'd be happy with more flashbacks from Jamie's 20 years because I feel like we know more about Claire's time in Boston than we do about Jamie's time post Culloden, so it was nice to fill in that little bit of the puzzle. But I kept asking myself when they went back to Selkirk with Young Ian, why the hell don't they get a small boat and row out there?! And how is Young Ian supposed to swim back with a chest and not have it open and it's contents spill out into the sea?! And just when I'm yelling at the TV that very thing, BAM! PIRATES.KIDNAP.YOUNGIAN.AND.STEAL.THE.TREASURE.  I mean give me a fucking break Show! That's absurd! How and why would pirates suddenly show up to look for that treasure after all this time, at the exact moment that Young Ian is collecting said treasure chest? And just as Jamie is solidifying his relationship with Claire with what has to be an immortal line:

Jamie: "You belong to me, we're mated for life Sassanach. Will you risk the man I am for the sake of the one you once knew?"

Damn that's good stuff...and then....More life threatening drama!

My summary of this episode: Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ

PS: At least Jamie's hair looks better now...Buh bye bad boy bangs!

Edited by gingerella
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1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Also, why didn't Claire tell Jenny and Ian that she didn't come back to Lallybroch because she didn't want the red coats to follow her there and punish Ian and Jenny for harboring the wife of a treasonist. THAT makes complete sense and yet it was never uttered despite it being said in a previous episode.

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They should have taken the gun and gone to Leery and told her that she could either fall in line and cooperate and drop the complaint, or she would be tried for attempted murder and possession of a gun and she'd end up in prison. That ought to have snapped her back into reality.

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why the hell don't they get a small boat and row out there?! And how is Young Ian supposed to swim back with a chest and not have it open and it's contents spill out into the sea?! And just when I'm yelling at the TV that very thing, BAM! PIRATES.KIDNAP.YOUNGIAN.AND.STEAL.THE.TREASURE.  I mean give me a fucking break Show!

Yes, yes, and yes!  I rewatched the episode last night since I was curious about all your responses to this one and decided to willingly subject myself to Leery, but I seriously wanted to reach through the TV screen and throttle these people for the idiocy.  

I mean, Claire sitting there acting and looking guilty just taking what Jenny was saying to her.  Maybe it's not a good idea to tell Jenny about the time travel, but why not at least say Claire was pregnant and arrived in America with nothing and could not leave her child to go back to Scotland and risk herself getting arrested (she could have said she feared even a letter could bring suspicion to Jenny).

Claire stated that Leery should not go unpunished, but I guess she had no say in this.  The threat of handing the gun over to the British should have been enough to make Leery shut the hell up, or at least quit her demands to have a huge sum-lump pay load.  And now because of her, Young Ian was in danger.  Jaime seriously had zero money stashed away elsewhere?  

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1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Yes, yes, and yes!  I rewatched the episode last night since I was curious about all your responses to this one and decided to willingly subject myself to Leery, but I seriously wanted to reach through the TV screen and throttle these people for the idiocy.  

I mean, Claire sitting there acting and looking guilty just taking what Jenny was saying to her.  Maybe it's not a good idea to tell Jenny about the time travel, but why not at least say Claire was pregnant and arrived in America with nothing and could not leave her child to go back to Scotland and risk herself getting arrested (she could have said she feared even a letter could bring suspicion to Jenny).

Claire stated that Leery should not go unpunished, but I guess she had no say in this.  The threat of handing the gun over to the British should have been enough to make Leery shut the hell up, or at least quit her demands to have a huge sum-lump pay load.  And now because of her, Young Ian was in danger.  Jaime seriously had zero money stashed away elsewhere?  

I’ve always assumed they don’t tell Jenny about Brianna (because she is 200 years in the future, ) surely Jenny will be mad that she never writes either? 
 

@gingerella, scroll up just a few posts to see my comments on Jamie’s choice! And you’ve been very intuitive about how the biggest thing that Jamie fears is losing Claire again. Do you think he could live through that again? 
 

P.S. everytime you love some dialogue it’s straight from the author

Edited by Cdh20 · Reason: Adding a thought
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On 11/9/2018 at 1:35 PM, Cdh20 said:

Does no one relate to poor Laoghaire? We all love Jamie & all he loves is Claire (forever I hope)! I think it was perfectly understandable that it was Laoghaire- Jamie sent Claire to be with a man who loved her, why shouldn't he be with a woman who loved him? Jamie wasn't going to give his heart to anyone else anyway, so I actually feel sorry for Laoghaire that she ever married Jamie, as she didn't get the love she craved! Then in this episode she was extra aweful- so isn't it convenient that we hate her & that makes it so easy that she is the throw away new wife? What if Jamie had married someone nice like Mary McNabb? What ever happened to her anyway?? 

To be honest, no I have no sympathy or empathy for Leery so I cannot relate to her at all. Not.one iota. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Null. The empty set.

What you write about it being understandable that Jamie married Leery because she loved him and Frank loved Claire doesn't hold water for me because:

1. We saw how things panned out for Frank, it's not a good idea to force someone who loves another to marry you just because you want that.

2. Frank could be a priggish asshole, but he was just a guy trying to deal with a wife who was in love with someone else. OTOH, Leery is a sociopath who tried to not just kill Claire off, but to have her burned alive at the stake, all because she thought Jamie belonged to her, even though he was pretty clear with her by the river and thwarted her attempts to come on to him and he told her he wouldn't break his vows to Claire. So she tries to kill Claire in a most gruesome manner. 

3. Leery again tries to kill Claire by shooting Jamie accidentally.

This crazy bitch isn't a woman scorned, she thinks she owns Jamie in a very obsessive and possessive way.

So I can't relate to her at all. In today's world she'd be put into a hospital for serious mental health issues. And that said, I'm not sure she's bat shit crazy OR if she's really a vindictive bitch who knows exactly what she's doing. I rather feel she's the latter from what she's shown us because she becomes unhinged and irate when she sees Claire is back with Jamie. Why? Because she can't stand to think she will lose the person that she doesn't even live with because they are so incompatible.

As for Mary McNabb, she was a caring woman whom I believe if Jamie had married her, she'd have stepped aside when Claire came back because she'd know that Jamie and Claire belong together and her marriage would be invalid anyway. And not for nothing because she's just a decent person. 

ETA: re Brianna, she could have said Brianna is in Boston and she cannot tell her Jamie is alive until she sees her in person because it's too big of a thing to tell her in a letter.

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

P.S. everytime you love some dialogue it’s straight from the author

Well that's good to know and bodes well for the books! 

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3 hours ago, gingerella said:

hand claps to the showrunners for a good touch-back to Claire and Jamie's S01 fight and make up re: laying hands on another to teach them a lesson.

Good catch. I hadn't thought about that and the fact that Jamie not only took Claire's point regarding what he did to her, but also broadened to a more general view on the-punishment-should-suit-the-crime.  If Young Ian acts like a child...

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

may we take a moment to praise the god that is Ian Murray?! This man is loyal to a fault, seems to make better decisions than Jamie does, and although he doesn't speak nearly as often as his wife, when he does it's always golden. I nominate this comment for The Best Comment of S03 Award:

Ian: "When there's a pot 'o shite on ta' boil, ye stir it like it's God's work!"

Can I give you an **AMEN**  One of the highlights of the past two episodes for me was that older, mature Ian is actually looking handsome. At least I think so. And he's still the best man in any room he inhabits. Yep. Take note! One of the (few) highlights.  Ned Gowan was another. 

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Why are they in the Laird's bedroom again when he signed the deed to Lallybroch over to his nephew? Do Jenny and Ian have to move out of that bedroom every time Jamie and Claire show up?!

Another head scratcher - among many.  I even paused to see if it was the same room. But later, when Jenny was cleaning up the room a bit later, it looked like it was Jenny and Ian's room and they hadn't given it up.

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

And how is Young Ian supposed to swim back with a chest and not have it open and it's contents spill out into the sea?!

I was certainly wondering the same thing.  WTF is going on with this story. So much doesn't make sense. 

On 11/9/2018 at 1:35 PM, Cdh20 said:

Does no one relate to poor Laoghaire? We all love Jamie & all he loves is Claire (forever I hope)! I think it was perfectly understandable that it was Laoghaire- Jamie sent Claire to be with a man who loved her, why shouldn't he be with a woman who loved him? Jamie wasn't going to give his heart to anyone else anyway, so I actually feel sorry for Laoghaire that she ever married Jamie, as she didn't get the love she craved! Then in this episode she was extra aweful- so isn't it convenient that we hate her & that makes it so easy that she is the throw away new wife? What if Jamie had married someone nice like Mary McNabb? What ever happened to her anyway?? 

Well, I can muster up a bit of sympathy for her. No one deserves an abusive husband—or two. But I harken back to Murtagh's conversation with Claire when Claire was teasing Jamie about seeing him kissing Leery. Murtagh told her 1) not to make fun of him, and 2) Leery was not for Jamie because even 50 years from then she would still be a girl and Jamie needed a woman.   This scene proved that Murtagh ( 😢 ) is a good judge of character. 

My best stab at why Jamie decided to marry her was that he knew he'd never love anyone again, so why NOT? He had been happy—when dancing with them—for the first time in years and thought he might be able to do some good for the girls—who he clearly liked and who had not taken after their mother.  It would have been a selfless act as far as he was concerned. BUT where does the mention of "(going) to a woman's bed as a brute blind with need" fit into this scenario? Or are there others we get to learn about bit by bit?  The only way that statement makes sense in the context of marrying Leery is that his "need" was to have people to take care of. But the blindness related to how badly suited they were—and always had been—to each other. 

(Throws hands in the air and gives up.)

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10 hours ago, gingerella said:

 

I'm not even using my name for her as a title to this screed because she doesn't deserve even that much. As I said above, I was gobsmacked that Jamie could have made the decision to marry that crazy bitch on his own without a lot of prodding from Jenny or someone else. He knows she tried to have his soul mate not just killed but burned alive. It doesn't matter that Jamie thought Claire would never return, THAT is going too far. And the whole 'Daddy! Who is that lady?!

This episode has made me crazy for a long time for any number of reasons.

1.  Claire at least twice has watched Jamie struggle with telling her ‘something’ and she’s given him an out every time with the ‘it’s ok you don’t have to tell me everything now’.  And coward that Jaime was he took the escape given him.  So Claire has some ownership.  He only really got to the second sentence when they got to Lallybroch.  The second sentence was listen with your heart.

2.  He did not lie to Claire.  Secret, yes but not a lie.  He did not have anymore children.  He did not love anyone but her.  So where is the lie here Claire?

3.  I don’t believe for one second that Marsali and Joanie just happened on Jamie during Hogmanay.  Lerry sent them to reel in that vulnerable fish.  And great that Jenny was pushing the match.  Her last match was anybody willing to live in a cave so I’m not real impressed with Jenny’s choices.

4.  Claire needs to take a second and realize that neither of them lived a happy life but she had someone with her that she loved, Brianna, and Jamie was truly alone.  And it was 20 effin years!  20 years!

So in conclusion the title Crazy Bitch could pretty much be claimed by any number of crazy bitches in this episode.  I think the first time I saw it I yelled at the tv so steadily that I went hoarse.

Edited by QuinnM
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14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Leery?!? Are.You.Fucking.Kidding.Me?!?!?

Sadly, no.  The Hosebeast is no joke.  Blech. 

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jenny, or should I call her JANET since she's acting like a cold bitch, is cold as ice to Claire and yet Claire's story of why she was away for 20 years DOES hold water.

YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!  There are sooooo many Jenny fans, and I am not among them.  I can understand her being miffed at Claire never communicating with them from Boston TO A POINT.  And maybe Claire could have soothed that by explaining herself more, ie - 

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Also, why didn't Claire tell Jenny and Ian that she didn't come back to Lallybroch because she didn't want the red coats to follow her there and punish Ian and Jenny for harboring the wife of a treasonist. THAT makes complete sense and yet it was never uttered despite it being said in a previous episode.

 

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

I mean, Claire sitting there acting and looking guilty just taking what Jenny was saying to her.  Maybe it's not a good idea to tell Jenny about the time travel, but why not at least say Claire was pregnant and arrived in America with nothing and could not leave her child to go back to Scotland and risk herself getting arrested (she could have said she feared even a letter could bring suspicion to Jenny).

THIS and THIS.  Again, people are not communicating here!  I also get annoyed that Claire just stands there and continues to take shit from Jamie about leaving ("You left me!") and then Jenny ("Family writes a letter.") and then doesn't defend herself.  She did nothing wrong in regards to leaving and then coming back to find Jamie, and yet she is the one faced with the finger-pointing and blame.  

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

I nominate this comment for The Best Comment of S03 Award:

Ian: "When there's a pot 'o shite on ta' boil, ye stir it like it's God's work!"

YES!!  I have formally incorporated this line into my daily lexicon.  

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

How can she not know how cutting that is to her brother? How can she not get that?!

Reason #57 that I'm no Jenny fan.  (Please refer to the initial statement above.)

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

And the whole 'Daddy! Who is that lady?! Why is Daddy yelling at Mommy" was utter bollocks.

Yes, this was actually gag worthy.  I have friends who have close, loving relationship with their stepdads, who have raised them from a young age, and they still do not refer to them as 'Daddy."  Fergus, for example, does not refer to Jamie in any title connotating a paternal relationship and Jamie IS his adopted father.  

12 hours ago, gingerella said:
On 11/9/2018 at 4:35 PM, Cdh20 said:

Does no one relate to poor Laoghaire? We all love Jamie & all he loves is Claire (forever I hope)! I think it was perfectly understandable that it was Laoghaire- Jamie sent Claire to be with a man who loved her, why shouldn't he be with a woman who loved him? Jamie wasn't going to give his heart to anyone else anyway, so I actually feel sorry for Laoghaire that she ever married Jamie, as she didn't get the love she craved! Then in this episode she was extra aweful- so isn't it convenient that we hate her & that makes it so easy that she is the throw away new wife? What if Jamie had married someone nice like Mary McNabb? What ever happened to her anyway?? 

To be honest, no I have no sympathy or empathy for Leery so I cannot relate to her at all. Not.one iota. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Null. The empty set.

Me neither, and maybe that makes me a cruel, unempathetic person, but so be it.  

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

But I harken back to Murtagh's conversation with Claire when Claire was teasing Jamie about seeing him kissing Leery. Murtagh told her 1) not to make fun of him, and 2) Leery was not for Jamie because even 50 years from then she would still be a girl and Jamie needed a woman.   This scene proved that Murtagh ( 😢 ) is a good judge of character. 

Oooh, yes.  I'm ashamed to admit that sometimes I forget about this.  Diana gave us the clues to this relationship all along.  Had Murtagh been around, he would have countered Jenny and this wouldn't have happened. 

4 hours ago, QuinnM said:

This episode has made me crazy for a long time for any number of reasons.

1.  Claire at least twice has watched Jamie struggle with telling her ‘something’ and she’s given him an out every time with the ‘it’s ok you don’t have to tell me everything now’.  And coward that Jaime was he took the escape given him.  So Claire has some ownership.  He only really got to the second sentence when they got to Lallybroch.  The second sentence was listen with your heart.

I think had he gotten the chance to go past that second sentence, Claire would have been pissed and a little hurt, but she would have understood.  He didn't get that chance and all she got was "Daddy" and being called a huir by the Hosebeast. 

I've always felt that having a little girl with red hair come into the room was the real blow here.  The red hair and the "Daddy" had to have evoked so many emotions in her - Faith and Brianna never knowing their father, Jamie never raising them, picturing Brianna as a young girl with red hair and not saying "Daddy" to Jamie.  That was the real gut check.  Then, Hosebeast storms in with insults flaring, it was a lot to process immediately.  Had it come calmly, as the William reveal did, I think Claire would have digested it all much better. 

5 hours ago, QuinnM said:

2.  He did not lie to Claire.  Secret, yes but not a lie.  He did not have anymore children.  He did not love anyone but her.  So where is the lie here Claire?

But was it a lie by omission?  I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think it is a little gray.  Claire certainly felt that he lied.  And I know she gave him an out several times, but this is a pretty big deal.  He should have forced the story with her, whether she had given him the out or not. 

5 hours ago, QuinnM said:

3.  I don’t believe for one second that Marsali and Joanie just happened on Jamie during Hogmanay.  Lerry sent them to reel in that vulnerable fish.  And great that Jenny was pushing the match.  Her last match was anybody willing to live in a cave so I’m not real impressed with Jenny’s choices.

PFTTT!!!!  I just spat coffee all over my screen.  BEST JENNY SYNOPSIS EVER.  

5 hours ago, QuinnM said:

So in conclusion the title Crazy Bitch could pretty much be claimed by any number of crazy bitches in this episode.

Agree.  None of the ladies - Hosie, Claire, or Jenny came out of this one looking great.  And Jamie, wow...really not great.  

All hail Ian Murray, Sr. -  the victor of Outlander characters!!

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I am loving reading all of your responses to this episode, (you guys are amazing, and so right!)

BUT-

The only thing I would disagree with is the younger girl (who looked to be maybe 6 or 7) calling Jaime "Daddy"- this was the 18th century, children did NOT call their elders by their first names (unless you were speaking to a servant), given she was only 3 or 4 for Jaime married Laoghaire, it is likely she would call him "Daddy" or "Daddy Jaime". And of course Laoghaire would encourage that because she was desperate to hold onto Jaime. I know plenty of people in the 21st century that call their step-father "Daddy" or "Pops" or something along those lines, especially if they have been around from their early childhood. 

No I dont think Jaime lied to Claire, but I think he should have been straight forward before they got back to Lallybrooke, as he KNEW Laoghaire could show up at any second.

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7 hours ago, QuinnM said:

 Her last match was anybody willing to live in a cave so I’m not real impressed with Jenny’s choices.

........

And it was 20 effin years!  20 years!

You need to take this on a stand-up tour! Hilarious!  And—after the 2nd bit—I couldn't help thinking "We were on a BREAK!!!"

7 hours ago, QuinnM said:

 I don’t believe for one second that Marsali and Joanie just happened on Jamie during Hogmanay.  Lerry sent them to reel in that vulnerable fish.

Interesting. I think I had lost interest by then, but you may have a point. The show did make a big deal of the scene (back when they visited the old Fox grandsire) where Claire sends Jamie to thank Leery for her help (but he knew not what help and thanked her grudgingly) and then the pause after Leery's "humble" reply followed by her whisper to herself that she still hoped to get him to love her. I can now see that was a foreshadowing of this storyline. For my part, I grudgingly appreciate the seeds the show attempts to sow in previous episodes in hopes of bearing fruit in later episodes—much later—and possibly too late for most of us. 

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

No I dont think Jaime lied to Claire, but I think he should have been straight forward before they got back to Lallybrooke, as he KNEW Laoghaire could show up at any second.

He kept telling himself (and Fergus) that wouldn't be possible so he lied to himself as much as to Claire.  He kept saying how far it was to where his second wife lived and yet it took her and two children one afternoon—if that!

After reading other's comments, I'm starting to feel for Jenny. Yes! I said that. When we 1st meet her she is angry with Jamie for never sending word—for four years!—that he was still alive after BJR took him away. And then Claire shows up after 20 years having done the same thing to her. Of course Jenny is going to be irrational. That's proven to be who she is and how she reacts—and it might explain why Claire acted so guilty when Jenny confronted her. Thank God Jenny married the right man. If given time, she'd probably come around. Will the show give us that time with her, or will it send us off in search of Young Ian, never to return—and let us believe Jenny dies of a broken heart—one she's smashed to pieces in her rage!

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I really liked this episode, but find I am in the minority ( mostly because of the Laoghaire hate). Diana clearly was doing her usual foreshadowing with introducing Laoghaire ( I always want to spell it Leery, as we should be leery of her). One of my friends texted me before season 3 saying “ Jamie will likely be married to Laoghaire when Claire gets back! “, & I was stunned that she picked Up on that, as I had not really. Anyway it’s not that I like her, it’s that all other options seem worse. Jamie married someone nice, & had kids with them? Oh hell no! 
 

Also Jamie did keep SECRETS from Claire, but he did not lie! 
 

I do think it’s ridiculous that Jamie has to pay alimony! 
 

Not a Jenny fan either! 
 

SassAndSnacks & I have agreed to disagree on this episode as well. 😘

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12 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Interesting. I think I had lost interest by then, but you may have a point. The show did make a big deal of the scene (back when they visited the old Fox grandsire) where Claire sends Jamie to thank Leery for her help (but he knew not what help and thanked her grudgingly) and then the pause after Leery's "humble" reply followed by her whisper to herself that she still hoped to get him to love her. I can now see that was a foreshadowing of this storyline. For my part, I grudgingly appreciate the seeds the show attempts to sow in previous episodes in hopes of bearing fruit in later episodes—much later—and possibly too late for most of us. 

I agree 100% with @QuinnM that Laoghaire sent her girls to talk to Jaime and 'reel him in'. For the record I HATE Laoghaire, she is an awful person, but awful people can still have emotional needs and a bright idea every now and again. 

Based on what we were told, Laoghaire had TWO awful abusive husbands, that have both died and left her with two babies to raise. Neither man was so wealthy that she never has to worry about money again. Now here comes Jaime (whom she has had the hots for all these years), who's wife has "died" (to her knowledge) and he has no biological children of his own (to her knowledge). Knowing Jaime's character and love of children, BEST CASE she sends the girls to chat him up, and she can see if they can spark something. She could get a decent husband who wouldnt beat or mistreat her, OR her daughters, and would protect them socially (a woman with no husband was incredibly vulnerable in this culture). She may be able to give Jaime a biological child of his own, which would bind him to her even further- but even if she couldnt, she and her girls would have a lot to gain with Jaime as a husband/step father.

Of course no one deserves an abusive husband, but Laoghaire was unhinged BEFORE all of those awful things happened to her, its no surprise she could not make a marriage work with Jaime whom I believe did try.

 

6 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I do think it’s ridiculous that Jamie has to pay alimony! 

I dont think that is ridiculous. Jaime married Laoghaire of his own free will, and when he did so, he pledged to finically support her for the rest of her life. He did enter the marriage in good faith (he legitimately believed Claire was dead, according to what he is telling the lawyer), but it has been determined this first wife is alive, and as such he is a bigamist. 

Well Laoghaire WAS free to marry when she agreed to marry Jaime, and she lost the freedom to contract a marriage with someone else the entire time she believed herself to be his wife. No one forced Jaime to marry Laoghaire, and in this culture women do not have economic/legal independence from their husbands. Yeah he had a duty to provide for her, which I didnt see Jaime having a problem with.

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7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree 100% with @QuinnM that Laoghaire sent her girls to talk to Jaime and 'reel him in'. For the record I HATE Laoghaire, she is an awful person, but awful people can still have emotional needs and a bright idea every now and again. 

Based on what we were told, Laoghaire had TWO awful abusive husbands, that have both died and left her with two babies to raise. Neither man was so wealthy that she never has to worry about money again. Now here comes Jaime (whom she has had the hots for all these years), who's wife has "died" (to her knowledge) and he has no biological children of his own (to her knowledge). Knowing Jaime's character and love of children, BEST CASE she sends the girls to chat him up, and she can see if they can spark something. She could get a decent husband who wouldnt beat or mistreat her, OR her daughters, and would protect them socially (a woman with no husband was incredibly vulnerable in this culture). She may be able to give Jaime a biological child of his own, which would bind him to her even further- but even if she couldnt, she and her girls would have a lot to gain with Jaime as a husband/step father.

Of course no one deserves an abusive husband, but Laoghaire was unhinged BEFORE all of those awful things happened to her, its no surprise she could not make a marriage work with Jaime whom I believe did try.

 

I dont think that is ridiculous. Jaime married Laoghaire of his own free will, and when he did so, he pledged to finically support her for the rest of her life. He did enter the marriage in good faith (he legitimately believed Claire was dead, according to what he is telling the lawyer), but it has been determined this first wife is alive, and as such he is a bigamist. 

Well Laoghaire WAS free to marry when she agreed to marry Jaime, and she lost the freedom to contract a marriage with someone else the entire time she believed herself to be his wife. No one forced Jaime to marry Laoghaire, and in this culture women do not have economic/legal independence from their husbands. Yeah he had a duty to provide for her, which I didnt see Jaime having a problem with.

I meant mostly because she just shot him! Jamie is always the “bigger” person here, instead of charging Laoghaire, which would endanger her kids, he agrees to pay her & she gets off scot free! 

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1 minute ago, Cdh20 said:

I meant mostly because she just shot him! Jamie is always the “bigger” person here, instead of charging Laoghaire, which would endanger her kids, he agrees to pay her & she gets off scot free! 

She DID shoot him!!!! OMG I forgot about that part! ( I saw the season 3 episodes had traffic again and hopped on into the discussion).

Laoghaire is UNHINGED, and I am sure Jaime feels so badly for her children who seem to be nice girls and of course none of this is their fault.

I think it might have been more compelling if Laoghaire wasnt such an evil character, of course we dont want to ROOT for her, but if she had just been a young girl who had the hots for Jaime all those years ago (and did not try to have Claire killed), and then had to suffer abuse in her previous marriages- Jaime's conflict might be more understandable. 

Shooting Jaime was unacceptable. She cannot even say that it was the "shock" of seeing him in bed with Claire, because she went back home and got the pistol and came back.

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35 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

When we 1st meet her she is angry with Jamie for never sending word—for four years!—that he was still alive after BJR took him away. And then Claire shows up after 20 years having done the same thing to her. Of course Jenny is going to be irrational. That's proven to be who she is and how she reacts—and it might explain why Claire acted so guilty when Jenny confronted her.

Ok, ok.  Making rational points again...  I see your point, and I'm stifling my Jenny rage for a minute.  

31 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

SassAndSnacks & I have agreed to disagree on this episode as well. 😘

Thank you!  I DO actually like this episode.  It frustrates me, yes, but I most appreciate that the big secret is out in the open, and I love me a good J&C argument.  Plus, it has Ian, and I love Ian so much.  I would watch an entire series that featured this character making wise quips to people.  

What I don't appreciate are all of the silly plot points, which ok, that's DG's fault, but the show somehow managed to make these even sillier.  

32 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Laoghaire was unhinged BEFORE all of those awful things happened to her

Yes, I had also forgotten, mostly because I try not ever think about her or this subplot, that Laoghaire was running fast and loose with some clansmen before she started to make a move on Jamie, thus the beating he took for her.  In modern times, I don't care about that, in 1743, not a good look, methinks.  

20 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think it might have been more compelling if Laoghaire wasnt such an evil character, of course we dont want to ROOT for her, but if she had just been a young girl who had the hots for Jaime all those years ago (and did not try to have Claire killed), and then had to suffer abuse in her previous marriages- Jaime's conflict might be more understandable.

I absolutely agree with this.  If we hadn't already seen the things she's done - the love spell, the witch trial, muttering under her breath after he thanked her, setting her girls upon him - I might be a little more sympathetic to her and understanding of his decision.  

We have to suspend disbelief often as Outlander viewers, but for me, this is one point that I struggle to wrap my brain around.  

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18 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Shooting Jaime was unacceptable. She cannot even say that it was the "shock" of seeing him in bed with Claire, because she went back home and got the pistol and came back.

You know that the conversation on his marriage was never going to be easy. Claire had repeatedly brought up his sleeping in a brothel, his taking out trade with prostitute with a very perjorative tone.  The fact that she lived ‘happily raising Brianna together’ and raised their daughter doesn’t seem to factor in her mind.  But all of this was made so much worse by Jenny and Lerry.  Jenny by surprising the house and Leery letting her daughters walk into the bedroom.  That’s some great mothering right there,  ‘Girls go surprise your daddy in his bedroom’.  I believe the neighbors heard me scream at that one.

Best comic relief was when Jenny asked who shot him and both Claire and Jamie just stared at her with daggers before Claire finally said Lerry.

 

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1 minute ago, QuinnM said:

You know that the conversation on his marriage was never going to be easy. Claire had repeatedly brought up his sleeping in a brothel, his taking out trade with prostitute with a very perjorative tone.  The fact that she lived ‘happily raising Brianna together’ and raised their daughter doesn’t seem to factor in her mind.  But all of this was made so much worse by Jenny and Lerry.  Jenny by surprising the house and Leery letting her daughters walk into the bedroom.  That’s some great mothering right there,  ‘Girls go surprise your daddy in his bedroom’.  I believe the neighbors heard me scream at that one.

Best comic relief was when Jenny asked who shot him and both Claire and Jamie just stared at her with daggers before Claire finally said Lerry.

 

Yeah, Claire had her own attitudes about sex work (more regarding men who visited sex workers*) BUT I think Claire would've been more understanding if Jaime had initially stated that he was married but separated and they would have to deal with his wife, and THEN confessed that it was Laoghaire. 

*Claire is "enlightened" for a woman living in the mid 20th century (probably thanks to being raised by her uncle etc), but what did she expect Jaime to be doing all these years? Like many people she can understand sex with emotional attachment, but she seems to find sex simply for the drive for partnered sex distasteful. 

 

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4 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

Thank you!  I DO actually like this episode.  It frustrates me, yes, but I most appreciate that the big secret is out in the open, and I love me a good J&C argument.  Plus, it has Ian, and I love Ian so much.  I would watch an entire series that featured this character making wise quips to people.  

What I don't appreciate are all of the silly plot points, which ok, that's DG's fault, but the show somehow managed to make these even sillier.  

 

 

I think this episode is an amazing adaptation. 
Except maybe Jamie  saying “you left me!” Is the funniest line! Does he have PTSD from making her go? Jamie - that was your idea! All yours! 

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18 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I think this episode is an amazing adaptation. 
Except maybe Jamie  saying “you left me!” Is the funniest line! Does he have PTSD from making her go? Jamie - that was your idea! All yours! 

That "you left me!" is the most inexplicable thing that's come out of his mouth. Curiosity made me go back and check the three-part expositional sex scenes we were treated to in the A. Malcolm episode. It helped make a bit more sense of Jamie's actions (as has @gingerella's post on Jamie's fear of losing Claire again.) Here are the bits of dialogue that helped me out:

Jamie: Do ye want to leave now?

Claire: I did not come here to make love to you once. I came back to be with you.  

Jamie: I canna tell ye...  What it felt like when I touched ye today...  And knew you to be real.  To find you again...  And to lose you...  

Claire: You won't lose me...  Not unless you do something immoral.
So Jamie's cowardice and obfuscation regarding his illegal activities and his marriage come from his confession that he could not stand to lose her again and her off-hand remark that only if he did something immoral would she leave. (immorality is incredibly subjective)

In a followup scene Jamie clearly and calmly reminded Claire that she had to go back through the stones to save Brianna. (although he thought it was baby William at the time).

Claire: I will never leave you again.

Jamie: Ye were right to leave. Ye did it for Brianna. Ye were a wonderful mother, Claire. I know it. Ye gave me a child, Claire. She is alive... safe. Because of her... We will live forever... You and I.
Claire was the first to describe the parting at the Stones as her leaving him (and I believe she felt that agreeing to his—possibly dying— wish was in fact her decision to leave him.)

Both of them describe—what we saw as Claire actually obeying Jamie for a change!—as her decision. 

Of course, both of them knew he was right and he did have to "make" her go by putting her hands on the stone, but they both processed it differently. 

I'm beginning to see Jamie's self opinion—that he is now a coward—as regret for sending Claire away. Plus, Jamie's never been good at winning arguments with Claire, so he falls back on old favourite tropes. "You made me do it. Your actions made me marry Leery. I didn't leave you, you left ME! I stayed... and lived. How did that happen? It wasn't part of the plan."
 

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16 hours ago, Anothermi said:

My best stab at why Jamie decided to marry her was that he knew he'd never love anyone again, so why NOT? He had been happy—when dancing with them—for the first time in years and thought he might be able to do some good for the girls—who he clearly liked and who had not taken after their mother.  It would have been a selfless act as far as he was concerned. BUT where does the mention of "(going) to a woman's bed as a brute blind with need" fit into this scenario? Or are there others we get to learn about bit by bit?  The only way that statement makes sense in the context of marrying Leery is that his "need" was to have people to take care of. But the blindness related to how badly suited they were—and always had been—to each other. 

(Throws hands in the air and gives up.)

'Och!', as Roger would say...remember dear old Roger, where the hell is he Show, we want to know!  Anyway, re: the first bolded bit above, Jamie is always taking the noble path, always doing the right thing for another person even if it makes no sense or leaves him open to future problems, so I've no doubt you're on to something, but I suspect we get a lot more background on this particular coupling in the books and the Show did no favors to the BIG REVEAL - BOOM! It catches up off guard the same as it did Claire. As for the second point, at the moment Leery and girls burst into the room, Claire has no knowledge that Jamie even took another wife, let alone who it is, and I'll expand on that in a moment, but I don't think his statement about being 'a brute blind with need' refers to this, though I like how you took that and applied it to this situation! I think when Jamie told Claire that, it was strictly in the context of sex because he says:

Jamie: "I never thought I'd laugh in a woman's bed again, let alone come to one, save as a brute blind with need."

Claire: "Is that...what you did when you had the need?"

Jamie: "Claire...I..."

Claire: "It's alright, we don't need to rush things..."

That exchange is about sex and the need for physical connection. And I think the reason Jamie doesn't want to discuss it with Claire is partially because he doesn't want to think about any sex he's had (and we only know about two one-night stands with Mary McNabb and Geneva Dunsany) with women other than Claire. It's not clear to me if he ever had sex with Leery because she seems to be unable to have sex because of some hinted at abuse from her past husbands, and we know Jamie isn't a brothel customer because he tells Claire so directly and in the past we know he valued his virginity and waited for the woman who would become his wife, when he could have had plenty of sex with huirs and other 'wanton' women like Rupert and Angus were doing.  I think that hesitation was because it reminds him he has a big secret he still hasn't told Claire and he knows she'll flip out when he tells her. And lastly, I think there's something to what someone else said about him not wanting to remember how incredibly lonely he's been all these years, to the point where he tried to get himself killed or die many times but never could make it happen (because they're meant to be reunited, DUH)! I think any sex he's had since Claire's been gone has been for basic human connection and he probably fantasizes that he's with Claire just like Claire fantasized about him when she'd keep her eyes closed with Frank. In fact, WHY THE HELL don't these two schmoes talk about THAT?! Claire also never says explicitly - even when Jamie is clearly jealous and upset over her being with Frank - she never says outright, "Frank and I only slept together a few times and I could never get you out of my head. I had to keep my eyes shit so I wouldn't see his face. Most of our marriage was miserable and we never slept together again...in fact he has a mistress whom he flaunted in our home!" I think THAT would have garnered sympathy and THAT would have been a perfect entree to Jamie telling Claire about Leery too. But nope, we have these opaque convos that go round and round and given that we're to believe these two are soul mates bound together across time and space and 200 fucking years, at least give us some meaty conversations to explain to each one what the other went through in their own relationship whilst they were apart.

11 hours ago, QuinnM said:

This episode has made me crazy for a long time for any number of reasons.

1.  Claire at least twice has watched Jamie struggle with telling her ‘something’ and she’s given him an out every time with the ‘it’s ok you don’t have to tell me everything now’.  And coward that Jaime was he took the escape given him.  So Claire has some ownership.  He only really got to the second sentence when they got to Lallybroch.  The second sentence was listen with your heart.

2.  He did not lie to Claire.  Secret, yes but not a lie.  He did not have anymore children.  He did not love anyone but her.  So where is the lie here Claire?

3.  I don’t believe for one second that Marsali and Joanie just happened on Jamie during Hogmanay.  Lerry sent them to reel in that vulnerable fish.  And great that Jenny was pushing the match.  Her last match was anybody willing to live in a cave so I’m not real impressed with Jenny’s choices.

4.  Claire needs to take a second and realize that neither of them lived a happy life but she had someone with her that she loved, Brianna, and Jamie was truly alone.  And it was 20 effin years!  20 years!

So in conclusion the title Crazy Bitch could pretty much be claimed by any number of crazy bitches in this episode.  I think the first time I saw it I yelled at the tv so steadily that I went hoarse.

Hi @QuinnM! I love all of the above for so many reasons. Claire did keep letting Jamie off the hook when he struggled to explain things to her, and Jamie took that out as a way to prolong what he knew was going to be a very difficult convo. BUT, I will give them both credit here because Claire is trying to understand what it was like for him the past 20 years and she's beginning to understand how horrible Jamie's life was without her, and while her life might have been loveless in terms of a mate, she had Brianna to raise and her career, both seemed to bring her much joy but what joy did Jamie get from his life? Not much that we've seen. And not for nothing but when they're on the cliff waiting for Young Ian to get the treasure chest and Claire's getting all wishy washy with her "This is so much harder than I thought, boo hoo hoo, maybe it was all a mistake. We were happy, me in Boston and you with your print shop in Edinburgh..." I really wanted to kick her right in the shins to STFU because raising your daughter and having a vibrant career and friends is NOT equal to Jamie eeking out an existence in Edinburgh printing seditious materials and smuggling booze, FFS! Claire really needs to get her head out of her ass.

I think Jenny, if she did indeed try to push him into marrying Leery, did it to get him out of her hair, and I canna blame her too much because he's been bringing trouble to Lallybroch for decades now so, I ken why she'd feel that way, sorta kinda...

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah, Claire had her own attitudes about sex work (more regarding men who visited sex workers*) BUT I think Claire would've been more understanding if Jaime had initially stated that he was married but separated and they would have to deal with his wife, and THEN confessed that it was Laoghaire. 

Yes and no. She was a bit put out that he was living in a brothel, and she had an attitude when she asked him if it was because he was such a good customer, but I think IF they'd had a more direct convo about this, Claire would have been happier, or relieved to know that Jamie never loved another woman he was with after she left. I honestly don't know if it would have been more preferable to her if he'd said he had found someone else whom he loved, but not the in the same way he loved Claire. I think knowing he'd been with women or a woman whom he loved would be more hurtful to Claire than knowing anyone else was just meaningless to him.

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:
2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Laoghaire was unhinged BEFORE all of those awful things happened to her

Yes, I had also forgotten, mostly because I try not ever think about her or this subplot, that Laoghaire was running fast and loose with some clansmen before she started to make a move on Jamie, thus the beating he took for her.  In modern times, I don't care about that, in 1743, not a good look, methinks.  

This is why I have zero sympathy for this character. She was already running around with other men back then, and now we're supposed to feel sorry for her that she had two bad marriages? For all we know she got knocked up by husband #1 who then had to marry her, and/or ditto #2. Add to that her ill wish - using witchcraft to bring harm to Claire - then trying to actually get Claire murdered, then acting sincere in her repentance only to mutter about making Jamie hers in the future, and then trying to murder Claire AGAIN! No, sorry, she's unhinged and/or really evil and/or both. So she can fuck right off. I am still pissed off that Ned and Claire didn't push Jamie to at least go to her and try to tell her to change her mind or she'll go to prison.

Lastly, but definitely not least, it's so nice to see you @Scarlett45 & @QuinnM, thanks for popping by! We'd love your take on other past episodes so feel free to poke around our S01 & S02 musing and let us know your thoughts...It's always helpful and insightful to go back and see what others think of a past episode and see how others interpret the same thing!

29 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I'm beginning to see Jamie's self opinion—that he is now a coward—as regret for sending Claire away. Plus, Jamie's never been good at winning arguments with Claire, so he falls back on old favourite tropes. "You made me do it. Your actions made me marry Leery. I didn't leave you, you left ME! I stayed... and lived. How did that happen? It wasn't part of the plan."

Really? I don't think he would ever regret sending her away because it was the only way to save both Claire and their unborn child. There's no doubt that even if Claire had stayed, that the red coats wouldn't have taken her prisoner for being the wife of a treasonist. She was seen at all the battles from Prestonpans to Culloden, so she was seen playing a larger role than just the wife of Red Jamie. She treated troops, including red coats after Prestonpans, and there would have been people who would be willing to rat her out for money since the Highland way of life was being snuffed out and people were likely desperate to make ends meet. So I don't think he'd ever regret sending her back. If anything I think Claire ought to feel regret that she didn't try to come back sooner. I guess she wouldn't have wanted to take the risk of going back and not being able to return if she'd gone back when Brianna was younger, but she could have looked for him sooner than 3 years after Frank died. As for the 'why does he keep saying she left him' - I think Claire, who is proud and strong willed might feel she allowed this to happen, she gave in to Jamie's wishes so it's partially her fault. And on Jamie's side I think he honestly has PTSD and cannot remember clearly what happened and remembering it as Claire leaving him was easier to tell himself all those long lonely years. Also, and not for nothing, we cannot forget that the ONLY reason they're reunited now is because Claire took a risk and looked for him, and had good help in finding him.

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28 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Lastly, but definitely not least, it's so nice to see you @Scarlett45 & @QuinnM, thanks for popping by! We'd love your take on other past episodes so feel free to poke around our S01 & S02 musing and let us know your thoughts...It's always helpful and insightful to go back and see what others think of a past episode and see how others interpret the same thing!

Aww thanks. I may rewatch some of these episodes with you guys. They are hard because I don't want to spoil- its hard to remember what happened in each episode unless its a BIG one, and I watched season 2 so long ago.

But keep chatting here and I will be glad to throw my opinions in. I will likely do a full rewatch before the next season whenever we get it in 2022.

 

28 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Yes and no. She was a bit put out that he was living in a brothel, and she had an attitude when she asked him if it was because he was such a good customer, but I think IF they'd had a more direct convo about this, Claire would have been happier, or relieved to know that Jamie never loved another woman he was with after she left. I honestly don't know if it would have been more preferable to her if he'd said he had found someone else whom he loved, but not the in the same way he loved Claire. I think knowing he'd been with women or a woman whom he loved would be more hurtful to Claire than knowing anyone else was just meaningless to him.

I kind of think Claire would've preferred if Jaime had found someone that he had loved, but not as much as he had loved her and the woman was gone (dead, or moved away).

Claire isnt a very selfish person, I dont think she would've wanted Jaime to be lonely all this time, but I think the idea of him just having sex with a number of random women (younger, prettier women) would've been more distasteful to her than if he had met a widow with whom he had affection and respect and they comforted each other for a time but that was over. Especially since Claire did have some good years with Frank.

I think it would've kicked Claire in the gut if Jaime had loved another woman as much as her at the end of the day. For the record I HATE how they had Willie conceived. HATE IT. I think it would've been 100% better (and emotionally complex) if Jaime and the young lady of the manor did meet, and had an attraction and a liaison, but she was promised to the rich older man, married him and died in childbirth. It would've had the same result (Jaime with a son he couldn't raise, but not with a woman he loved) with giving Jaime a tiny bit of joy. 

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20 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Really? I don't think he would ever regret sending her away because it was the only way to save both Claire and their unborn child. There's no doubt that even if Claire had stayed, that the red coats wouldn't have taken her prisoner for being the wife of a treasonist. She was seen at all the battles from Prestonpans to Culloden, so she was seen playing a larger role than just the wife of Red Jamie. She treated troops, including red coats after Prestonpans, and there would have been people who would be willing to rat her out for money since the Highland way of life was being snuffed out and people were likely desperate to make ends meet. So I don't think he'd ever regret sending her back.

Ha Ha. It is quite possible to hold contradictory emotions in the same head. I'd already quoted Jamie as affirming that Claire going back to the future—(will I have to pay royalties for that phrase?)—was the right thing to do. But when he came up with the plan he also expected to be dead. Having to live with the consequences of his brilliant plan, to quote Claire—was so much harder than he thought. And especially since she's now back and his feelings of loneliness are brought sharply front and centre. The regret is that he has passed 20 years without her and lived a shadow of a life that he is not proud of and shrinks from telling her about. Everyone is their own worst critic. My comment was that he doesn't see himself worthy of her—because he lived, and lived without her. He'd never been a coward when she knew him, but now he has things he hides about himself to avoid hearing the judgements that are already in his own head.

 

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1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Claire's getting all wishy washy with her "This is so much harder than I thought, boo hoo hoo, maybe it was all a mistake. We were happy, me in Boston and you with your print shop in Edinburgh..." I really wanted to kick her right in the shins to STFU because raising your daughter and having a vibrant career and friends is NOT equal to Jamie eeking out an existence in Edinburgh printing seditious materials and smuggling booze, FFS! Claire really needs to get her head out of her ass.

Absolutely.  I don’t think this was at all a lovely life for either of them.  But Claire was able to raise their child.  A child that she described to Jamie as being loved and raised by Frank.  So I just figure that Jamie is working on a lot of conflicting feelings.  He has not raised either child.  And he does lash out at Claire as though he resents that she did have a man that loved her, a child that she loved.  As he says when describing why he married, she had all the things he once thought he would have with her.  I just want to see her acknowledge the difference in what they went through wen they were apart.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Lastly, but definitely not least, it's so nice to see you @Scarlett45 & @QuinnM, thanks for popping by! We'd love your take on other past episodes so feel free to poke around our S01 & S02 musing and let us know your thoughts...It's always helpful and insightful to go back and see what others think of a past episode and see how others interpret the same thing!

Now that I’m back stateside there are so many things I’ve missed.  Like all this Outlander.  So my gap between seasons will be shorter and like @Scarlett45 I’m following along the current set of rewatch.  Thanks for the welcome.

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13 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Absolutely.  I don’t think this was at all a lovely life for either of them.  But Claire was able to raise their child.  A child that she described to Jamie as being loved and raised by Frank.  So I just figure that Jamie is working on a lot of conflicting feelings.  He has not raised either child.  And he does lash out at Claire as though he resents that she did have a man that loved her, a child that she loved.  As he says when describing why he married, she had all the things he once thought he would have with her.  I just want to see her acknowledge the difference in what they went through wen they were apart.

Oh yup yup. Claire did have a physically safe life, a fulfilling career, the love of their child, and a partner (as many issues as she and Frank had, he DID raise Briana and love her to the moon and back). 
 

Poor Jaime was a prisoner, lost his loved ones, had to leave his biological child- the dude has been THROUGH IT. 

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3 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Absolutely.  I don’t think this was at all a lovely life for either of them.  But Claire was able to raise their child.  A child that she described to Jamie as being loved and raised by Frank.  So I just figure that Jamie is working on a lot of conflicting feelings.  He has not raised either child.  And he does lash out at Claire as though he resents that she did have a man that loved her, a child that she loved.  As he says when describing why he married, she had all the things he once thought he would have with her.  I just want to see her acknowledge the difference in what they went through wen they were apart.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head, doesn't it? They each keep saying, "Oh it was so hard for me..." like it's a contest as to who had it worse. And since we can see both sides, clearly Jamie wins the misery award for 20 years of trying to die because he was so lonely. I also remembered that when they wed, Jamie was 22 and Claire was 27, now 5 years isn't a huge gap, but at that age, young men of 22 are not nearly as emotionally intelligent and experienced as most young women of 27. And while Jamie fought plenty before he met Claire, I think the type of fighting was very different, Claire was on the front lines during WWII, and she saw some shit. She's known a wedding and then a vast separation because of war. She's seen the world with her uncle as her guardian in ways Jamie never has, even though he is very open minded and modern thinking in many ways for a man of his time. So all this is to say, Jamie's emotional growth into adulthood happened on Claire's watch, and then one day POOF! she was gone, along with his unborn child. Meanwhile, he has to go through Culloden knowing full well he'll probably die, and then he lives! And then holy shit, as @Anothermi said some episode back, he never had a plan for surviving without Claire after Culloden, he only had a plan to send her back to save her, and then die fighting. Claire ought to be emotionally intelligent enough to know that her version of the separation wasn't nearly as awful as Jamie's was. Even though she and Frank had a loveless marriage on her part, I believe Frank would have dropped Candy (I know, it's on purpose!) in a hot minute if Claire had really wanted to reconcile. I think Frank always loved her, never stopped, he was just seeing someone to have a connection to someone whom he felt wanted HIM, not someone else. So even though Claire's marriage to Frank wasn't the hot sexy romp that Jamie might be envisioning and seething over internally, it wasn't nearly as horrible as Jamie's existence. I mean, the guy had pity sex in a goddamn CAVE, does it get sadder than that? And all of this is why is it so frustrating to watch the LACK of dialogue right now, because:

* All Claire had to do was explain to Jenny that she was pregnant and had to leave because she feared she'd bring trouble to Lallybroch

* All Claire had to do was tell Jamie that she only had sex with Frank a couple of times and then stopped because she had to close her eyes so she wouldn't see it wasn't Jamie she was wish. And that Frank cheated on her for years (that would have made Jamie mad as hell and produced some sympathy for her too, and eased his jealousy of Frank)

* All Jamie had to do was explain (their first night together again) that he had married another woman because he thought she had the pieces of a life that he had wanted with Claire, but quickly found it was untenable, but continued helping her children because he felt for them, and he never loved the woman, and he'd explain more later. The only reason he didn't tell Claire right away was because he was terrified she would walk out and go back to Boston forever. He needed more time to solidify her love once more, remind her of what they have together, of their bond, of their love, of their laughter together, and then she'd be in too deep to leave again. And really, it worked out that way, didn't it? She's not going to leave him now. Not after she's tended to his wounds, just like she did the first time they met. He's sealed their fate together when he uttered those words, "We're mated for life Sassanach."

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7 minutes ago, gingerella said:

All Jamie had to do was explain (their first night together again) that he had married another woman because he thought she had the pieces of a life that he had wanted with Claire, but quickly found it was untenable, but continued helping her children because he felt for them, and he never loved the woman, and he'd explain more later. The only reason he didn't tell Claire right away was because he was terrified she would walk out and go back to Boston forever. He needed more time to solidify her love once more, remind her of what they have together, of their bond, of their love, of their laughter together, and then she'd be in too deep to leave again. And really, it worked out that way, didn't it? She's not going to leave him now. Not after she's tended to his wounds, just like she did the first time they met. He's sealed their fate together when he uttered those words, "We're mate for life Sassanach."

Yup! Ding ding. 
 

We weren’t shown this but I wonder if Claire had lovers while married to Frank. Was she really celibate all those years?

And yes, if Claire had told Frank she wanted “him”, he would’ve dropped Candy in a hot minute. 

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49 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yup! Ding ding. 
 

We weren’t shown this but I wonder if Claire had lovers while married to Frank. Was she really celibate all those years?

And yes, if Claire had told Frank she wanted “him”, he would’ve dropped Candy in a hot minute. 

I dont think Claire had other lovers besides Frank, I think that's a HUGE omission that the Show would have to tell us about, even in passing. I think she shut down that part of her life once Frank would have sex with her unless she kept her eyes open. That's why she was so insecure about her looks and asked Joe if he thought she was attractive and sexy. It's why she dyed her gray streak to look younger to Jamie if she found him. It's why she was so uncomfortable when she stood naked before Jamie that first night they reconnected and he was staring at her but saying nothing. She hasn't been with anyone else, and I think he's only been with Mary and Geneva, and I don't even know if he was able to schtup crazypants so, maaaybe 3 times, I honestly don't think he's been sowing his seed with huirs or otherwise. Just my two cents though!

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

One of the highlights of the past two episodes for me was that older, mature Ian is actually looking handsome. At least I think so. And he's still the best man in any room he inhabits. Yep. Take note!

Just for you @Anothermi:

https://www.instagram.com/thestevencree/

I had NO idea...holy hell...Okay, I need to go collect my thoughts now...

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7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Like many people she can understand sex with emotional attachment, but she seems to find sex simply for the drive for partnered sex distasteful.

I wonder if she felt it was distasteful for Jamie.  The Jamie she knows wouldn't have done that, but this Jamie...who is this Jamie?  She's trying to figure that out at that point. 

6 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I'm beginning to see Jamie's self opinion—that he is now a coward—as regret for sending Claire away.

Oh, wow...interesting.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

In fact, WHY THE HELL don't these two schmoes talk about THAT?! Claire also never says explicitly - even when Jamie is clearly jealous and upset over her being with Frank - she never says outright, "Frank and I only slept together a few times and I could never get you out of my head.

To me, it's almost as though Claire is of the mind that Frank didn't want to hear the gritty details about Jamie, Jamie likely wouldn't want to go there about Frank.  It reminds me of what Jamie said to her when they parted just before Culloden, about her telling Frank whatever she wanted about him (Jamie) but that he (Frank) probably wouldn't want to hear it.  

But yeah, she's leaving out some very important details about how shitty Frank was to her.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

"This is so much harder than I thought, boo hoo hoo, maybe it was all a mistake. We were happy, me in Boston and you with your print shop in Edinburgh..." I really wanted to kick her right in the shins to STFU because raising your daughter and having a vibrant career and friends is NOT equal to Jamie eeking out an existence in Edinburgh printing seditious materials and smuggling booze, FFS! Claire really needs to get her head out of her ass.

Just want to take a moment to point out that similar to what @Cdh20 told you about the lines you love the most coming directly from the books, the lines you hate the most are not in the books.  Period.  Glean from that what you will. 

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

There's no doubt that even if Claire had stayed, that the red coats wouldn't have taken her prisoner for being the wife of a treasonist.

Agree, and I think more should have been made of this.  She was out there with him rallying troops and raising a militia.  She treated rebel soldiers.  She was on the scene of a suspicious death of a notable Duke.  She leaves a wake, this one does.  She was just as notorious.  She would have captured and imprisoned, and who knows what would have happened to the baby.  

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Also, and not for nothing, we cannot forget that the ONLY reason they're reunited now is because Claire took a risk and looked for him, and had good help in finding him.

YESSSSSSS!!!!  Though, to be fair, it's not as though Jamie could look for her.  Or did he....

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

For the record I HATE how they had Willie conceived. HATE IT.

Yay!!!  Join my club, please!!!  We can order jackets!!!  I HATE THAT ENTIRE SUBPLOT.  

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I mean, the guy had pity sex in a goddamn CAVE, does it get sadder than that?

Well, when you put it THAT way...  

I agree with you on all fronts.  This episode stands out to me because of the fantastic dialogue during their fight after Hosie and littles show up.  However, you are touching on all of the frustrations that just don't make sense.  The justification to Jenny and Fam and to each other was right there, and they didn't say it.  

 

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Jaime was more angry at Leery than Claire in Season 2, so I cannot believe that he would get over that anger even if he really bonded with Leery's children.  He didn't even have to marry her to spend time with her kids (eg. riding horses), especially if they visited Lallybroch often.  Heck, if he cared so much about those two "daughters", why did he move so far away to Edinburgh?   Can you imagine if Claire was gone for 20 years and then Jaime found out she married Black Jack Randall?  That would be hard to excuse even if we got a heartwarming flashback where Claire bonded with his young son.  If Jaime wanted his own family, I'm sure there were tons of women who would willingly marry him with minimal protest.  Yes, Jaime went through a lot, but he stayed true to himself throughout his time at the prison and at the manor where he was an indentured servant, but suddenly, the flashbacks stop and there's an abrupt personality change to throw wrenches in the plot.  I still think that's bad writing.  But it's certainly a great way to keep you glued to the screen.

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9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 Can you imagine if Claire was gone for 20 years and then Jaime found out she married Black Jack Randall? 

I don't think Claire ever told Jamie that Frank looked just like Black Jack Randall. THAT is who Jamie was sending her home to FFS! 

Of course Frank was not BJR, but he appeared to be the spitting image of him. Claire had been very careful not to give Jamie that information and good thing she didn't. He could console himself that she would be well cared for—but if he kept seeing her with BJR in his mind's eye? 🤯

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Just for you @Anothermi:

https://www.instagram.com/thestevencree/

I had NO idea...holy hell...Okay, I need to go collect my thoughts now...

OMG.  Thank YOU for that.

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3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I wonder if she felt it was distasteful for Jamie.  The Jamie she knows wouldn't have done that, but this Jamie...who is this Jamie?  She's trying to figure that out at that point. 

Great point that I hadn't considered when I said she'd likely prefer him to be with huirs than someone where love was involved. Jamie never slept with prostitutes, and he could have many times I'm sure, but that doesnt' seem like him, you're right.

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

If Jaime wanted his own family, I'm sure there were tons of women who would willingly marry him with minimal protest.  Yes, Jaime went through a lot, but he stayed true to himself throughout his time at the prison and at the manor where he was an indentured servant, but suddenly, the flashbacks stop and there's an abrupt personality change to throw wrenches in the plot.  I still think that's bad writing. 

This right here! When Jamie tells Claire on the cliffs, "Will you risk the man I am for the sake of the one you once knew?" he's telling Claire, and us, that he has changed...But has he really? I concur that he's just made a series of bad life decisions because he never thought he'd ever see Claire again and so his life wasn't that valuable to him anymore. If he'd known that Claire would be able to come back to him, even if it was 20 years that he'd have to wait, I don't think he'd have done some of the things he's done. And then some he would have, like the seditious printing, the smuggling to get more money for Lallybroch, these are things old Jamie would have done too, IMO. The only thing that really makes no sense is marrying Leery, to be honest. I get the reasons he gave Claire but as Sass said, he could have found any other nice woman with kids to settle down with and who would have welcomed him into her bed and given him comfort. BUT, then he may have loved another if that had happened and the only way to keep himself 'true' to Claire, in a weird way, was to marry someone he knew he'd never love. I don't know, it still makes no sense, marrying this crazy bitch, but to me that's really the only UNJamie thing he's done that we've seen on the Show, maybe the books tell a different story.

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I don't think Claire ever told Jamie that Frank looked just like Black Jack Randall. THAT is who Jamie was sending her home to FFS! 

Of course Frank was not BJR, but he appeared to be the spitting image of him. Claire had been very careful not to give Jamie that information and good thing she didn't. He could console himself that she would be well cared for—but if he kept seeing her with BJR in his mind's eye? 

Didn't we discuss this back in S01/02, how she never seemed to really explain that BJR was identical to Frank? And then when we find Frank isn't directly descended from BJR and is Alex's direct descendant that sort of throws things off because...yanno, genetics. But yes, Claire has kept plenty of secrets like that from Jamie, I think they're pretty even right now in the secret-keeping department. And really, if we go back to the fireside make up sex at Castle Leoch, post Claire's rescue from Ft. William, well, they agreed that their relationship could withstand secrets but not lies. So..what's the big fucking deal Claire, get over it and let's move on to the next disaster...sheesh!

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

OMG.  Thank YOU for that.

Yeah, I know, it's shocking how handsome he is in real life. Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ.

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9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I don't think Claire ever told Jamie that Frank looked just like Black Jack Randall. THAT is who Jamie was sending her home to FFS! 

Of course Frank was not BJR, but he appeared to be the spitting image of him. Claire had been very careful not to give Jamie that information and good thing she didn't. He could console himself that she would be well cared for—but if he kept seeing her with BJR in his mind's eye? 🤯

OMG.  Thank YOU for that.

I hope Claire didn’t say he was the spitting image of BJR, because Jamie having that picture in his mind, bedding his wife, & raising his child, would give him new nightmares! 

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On 6/7/2021 at 8:34 AM, SassAndSnacks said:

I've always felt that having a little girl with red hair come into the room was the real blow here.  The red hair and the "Daddy" had to have evoked so many emotions in her - Faith and Brianna never knowing their father, Jamie never raising them, picturing Brianna as a young girl with red hair and not saying "Daddy" to Jamie.  That was the real gut check.  Then, Hosebeast storms in with insults flaring, it was a lot to process immediately.  Had it come calmly, as the William reveal did, I think Claire would have digested it all much better. 

I'd forgotten about the above comment, but it's so insightful! Yes, imagine the shock of seeing a red haired little girl come into the room calling Jamie 'Daddy' and then a much older girl also calling him 'Daddy', and well, it looks at face value like Jamie had TWO daughters, and with Leery no less! And then one of them has bright red hair like Faith, and like Brianna. I can sympathize with Claire in that moment because what else could she think?!? Of course these are Jamie's other children and he lied to her about having another partner, let alone more kids. Telling her about Willie could be attributed - in that moment - to him wanting Claire to know he had a son, since sons were deemed more valuable than daughters in those days. But yeah, what else could Claire have thought? What a horrible set up, and writing this now makes me hate Jenny for putting that scene into motion the way she did. It was all the more heartbreaking when Jenny's daughter tried to console and apologize to her Auntie Claire for doing Jenny's dirty work and telling Leery that Jamie and Claire were back. That said, Balriggen is supposed to be far from Lallybroch so how on earth did she get there so quickly, and then run home to fetch a loaded pistol and come back again?!? The whole thing smells like a bad plot line. Bah!

22 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Just want to take a moment to point out that similar to what @Cdh20 told you about the lines you love the most coming directly from the books, the lines you hate the most are not in the books.  Period.  Glean from that what you will. 

Good to know...and yet also distressing as hell...

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On 6/6/2021 at 10:55 PM, Cdh20 said:

P.S. everytime you love some dialogue it’s straight from the author

 

On 6/6/2021 at 11:10 PM, gingerella said:

Well that's good to know and bodes well for the books! 

But be careful, because every time we all hate some dialogue (and let's face it, there is some REALLY cheesy stuff), it's also straight from the author.  (Disclaimer:  I made it just into Book 5 before I gave up and couldn't take the writing any longer, so maybe I'm a little biased.)

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Last night, before I watched the next episode I rewatched this one to see if I'd missed anything and surprisingly enough, I enjoyed it a lot more than on first view. There were a few bits that caught my eye and ear more clearly than on first watch including:

Claire's reaction to seeing Lallybroch for the first time:

Claire: "The place that was imprinted on my head and on my heart, it was home for a time..."

It made me remember how much going to Lallybroch meant to both Claire and Jamie. He was so proud of his family home, and when Claire learned he'd made her wedding band from the key to Lallybroch she was so touched. When she decided NOT to go back to Frank, and stay with Jamie, and she found him by his fire that night and said simply, "Take me home to Lallybroch", it was really an emotional scene. It was also the place they first said "I love you" to one another, and the place where Claire waited for Jamie to come home, and then rode to find him with Jenny by her side. And it was the place that that Claire and Jamie returned to after France, to heal emotionally after losing Faith. So a lot was wrapped up in that moment that I missed on first viewing.

I noticed when Claire and Jamie were left out in the courtyard when Jenny stomped back into the house upon first seeing them, Jamie did that tapping of his pointer finger and I realized that he always does that little tick when he's not sure what to do or is thinking about how to respond to a challenging situation. That and he 'hmmph' that he does when taking in something someone - usually Claire - is saying to him for the first time. He did it for the first time that I can remember during the Wedding episode, after their first time together, and he's done it every time there's something important or intimate being discussed between them. I like those little personal ticks to a character and they've been very consistent, which I appreciated.

The whole conversation about Selkie Island was so good on second watch! THIS is the type of conversation that we need them to put in each episode this season! It's straightforward and makes sense  and ties pieces of a 20 year puzzle together. One thing caught my eye when Jamie was on Selkie Island though, the MacKenzie family crest carved on to the stone was a stag's head, which as a lover of heraldic art (family crests and coat of arms) I though was off because the Fraser family crest is a stag. But after some research there are two MacKenzie families who have stags as their family crest so I was proved wrong.

Lastly, Jamie's comment to Claire about the desperate loneliness he felt while she was away and he says,

Jamie: "To live as half a man and accustom yourself to live in the bit that's left..."

That was such a powerfully evocative way to describe his pain and desperation. And yet Claire's reaction is to revert to her, "SAME HERE!" reply, and she still doesn't seem to get that her loneliness included raising their daughter, having a vibrant career (and one that actually kept alive part of her life with Jamie), friends and colleagues, and yes a husband even if the marriage wasn't warm and caring there was someone there. I'm not sure why she doesn't or can't see that their separations weren't equal, not that it's a contest but...And she even says this exact thing when they're on the cliff and  she says, "I had a life in Boston, I had my career, friends, etc....and you had your printshop in Edinburgh...it wasn't so bad, was it?" I mean, he had a goddamn print shop and was smuggling liquor FFS, how can she compare that to her own life? The only thing she was lacking was him and romantic love, but she even had their daughter with her, he had nothing! It's infuriating to hear her speak about this separation so callously.

 

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On 6/10/2021 at 1:44 PM, gingerella said:

I'm not sure why she doesn't or can't see that their separations weren't equal, not that it's a contest but...And she even says this exact thing when they're on the cliff and  she says, "I had a life in Boston, I had my career, friends, etc....and you had your printshop in Edinburgh...it wasn't so bad, was it?" I mean, he had a goddamn print shop and was smuggling liquor FFS, how can she compare that to her own life? The only thing she was lacking was him and romantic love, but she even had their daughter with her, he had nothing! It's infuriating to hear her speak about this separation so callously.

Yes this frustrated me too. 
 

Jaime was a PRISONER, for years, separated from his family, in fear for his life, forced to leave his other biological child to be raised by others. He wasn’t just missing Claire, running a print shop in the city and mentoring his nieces/nephews!
 

Claire missed Jaime, but she was safe, she had Brianna, she had a career, she had joy and happiness in her life. The fact that Jaime is so well adjusted after all he’s been through is a miracle. Claire was being really unfair and kind of self absorbed here. I know in her head she left the comfort of 20th century life and her daughter to be with him (which I wouldn’t have done in her position); so yes she made sacrifices for them to be together, but the interim years Claire definitely had a better quality of life. 

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On 6/10/2021 at 2:44 PM, gingerella said:

And yet Claire's reaction is to revert to her, "SAME HERE!" reply, and she still doesn't seem to get that her loneliness included raising their daughter, having a vibrant career (and one that actually kept alive part of her life with Jamie), friends and colleagues, and yes a husband even if the marriage wasn't warm and caring there was someone there. I'm not sure why she doesn't or can't see that their separations weren't equal, not that it's a contest but...

I agree with you to a point. A person can seemingly have it all - the job, the family, the friends and connections, the house, etc. - and still feel wrong or as though they are living half a life. While she wasn’t living in a cave, or prison, or in constant danger, Claire never did fully devote herself to her life in Boston or fully feel the joy that should have come from it.  Her pain was her pain, and I’m glad she had least made a point to tell him that it wasn’t all sunshine and lollipops. 

On 6/10/2021 at 2:44 PM, gingerella said:

she even says this exact thing when they're on the cliff and  she says, "I had a life in Boston, I had my career, friends, etc....and you had your printshop in Edinburgh...it wasn't so bad, was it?"

And my point above is why this line bothers me and I feel it doesn’t fit in the context of the story. The show makes a point of showing us that Claire wasn’t entirely present in her Boston life. Joe and Bri both say it outright, and we see it for ourselves in her interactions with Frank and her less vibrant personality. I understand that she would have SOME doubts in going back to Jamie, but for her vocalize it like that and in those terms feels wrong to me. 

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We saw Claire's life from the outside, and yes, a lot of that misery was self-inflicted, but that's what she lived and felt.  At this moment, she felt betrayed and she finally truly realized what she gave up to come back to a romanticized version of Jamie and the 1700s that was only in her imagination (well, actually it did exist until the last flashback we saw).  I don't blame her for becoming emotional, and I would have been behind her if she had chosen to leave for the Stones ASAP.  In some ways, Claire came to the realization that she did not need Jamie as much as she thought she did, which is empowering in some ways. 

Meanwhile, Jamie did not need Claire's permission to live his life the way he wanted, which involved marrying Leery, moving away from Jenny, getting his nephew involved in illegal activities and lying about all of it.  But Claire's return made him see that he desperately needed her, and thus his fear of Claire finding out about Leery.  A lot of his misery too after he was freed was self-inflicted.  But at the same time, his first reaction was not to take responsibility for his decisions.  It was to blame Claire for leaving, to blame Claire for asking him to be "nice" to Leery, to blame Jenny and Ian Sr. for being overbearing towards their son.  This was not the Jamie that the audience or Claire knew and loved.

These are all interesting issues to explore, but instead, immediate kidnapping.  

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On 6/12/2021 at 10:59 AM, SassAndSnacks said:

I agree with you to a point. A person can seemingly have it all - the job, the family, the friends and connections, the house, etc. - and still feel wrong or as though they are living half a life. While she wasn’t living in a cave, or prison, or in constant danger, Claire never did fully devote herself to her life in Boston or fully feel the joy that should have come from it.  Her pain was her pain, and I’m glad she had least made a point to tell him that it wasn’t all sunshine and lollipops. 

 

On 6/12/2021 at 10:59 AM, SassAndSnacks said:

And my point above is why this line bothers me and I feel it doesn’t fit in the context of the story. The show makes a point of showing us that Claire wasn’t entirely present in her Boston life. Joe and Bri both say it outright, and we see it for ourselves in her interactions with Frank and her less vibrant personality. I understand that she would have SOME doubts in going back to Jamie, but for her vocalize it like that and in those terms feels wrong to me. 

Both the above are great points and really, nobody can tell someone they didn't feel whatever it is they say they felt. And I'd forgotten how Claire's world in Boston was sort of in B&W, whilst as soon as she arrives back in 1700's Scotland, she seems immediately more vibrant and alive again. Even the Christmas episode for 'Freedom & Whiskey' seemed more vibrant without Frank there to drag her down.

On 6/12/2021 at 11:47 AM, Camera One said:

We saw Claire's life from the outside, and yes, a lot of that misery was self-inflicted, but that's what she lived and felt.  At this moment, she felt betrayed and she finally truly realized what she gave up to come back to a romanticized version of Jamie and the 1700s that was only in her imagination (well, actually it did exist until the last flashback we saw).  I don't blame her for becoming emotional, and I would have been behind her if she had chosen to leave for the Stones ASAP.  In some ways, Claire came to the realization that she did not need Jamie as much as she thought she did, which is empowering in some ways. 

This is also a valid point. Jamie did end up offering to take her back to the Stones though, didn't he? And she refused, or am I imagining that? I thought on the cliffs he made that offer to her.

On 6/12/2021 at 11:47 AM, Camera One said:

Meanwhile, Jamie did not need Claire's permission to live his life the way he wanted, which involved marrying Leery, moving away from Jenny, getting his nephew involved in illegal activities and lying about all of it.  But Claire's return made him see that he desperately needed her, and thus his fear of Claire finding out about Leery.  A lot of his misery too after he was freed was self-inflicted.  But at the same time, his first reaction was not to take responsibility for his decisions.  It was to blame Claire for leaving, to blame Claire for asking him to be "nice" to Leery, to blame Jenny and Ian Sr. for being overbearing towards their son.  This was not the Jamie that the audience or Claire knew and loved.

^This^ Jamie did what he had to in order to get by. Once he woke up from his self-imposed depression, he started trying to make a life. I doubt though, that he ever touched Leery without thinking and wishing she was Claire. And to be honest, I don't know how he could even attempt to bed the woman who tried to have his soul mate burned at the stake so there's that...it's quite vexing, so I'm trying not to think about it too much...and yet I am...!

Also, and not for nothing, this morning it popped into my head how hurtful Jennie's coldness and rudeness was towards Claire because we know Claire was an only child, and Jennie was the closest thing to a sibling that she'd ever had in her life. Ditto Ian. And whereas Ian cried tears of joy when he saw Claire in the brothel, Jennie just stared daggers at her, and insulted her by insinuating she'd scare the bairn too much if she helped change him. Yet again, Claire didn't say this to Jennie, which if she had may have changed things a lot. DUH.

On 6/12/2021 at 11:47 AM, Camera One said:

These are all interesting issues to explore, but instead, immediate kidnapping.  

And because it bears repeating...^THIS^

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