S11.E05: The Collaboration Contamination

[msrachelj]

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've gone my whole life without ever reading Tom Sawyer and I didn't skip any grades. I can also believe Sheldon's only indulgence in fictional writing would have been comic books - he would have been too busy studying physics and whatnot to read novels. 

When did the show ever establish that Amy and Howard liked Neil Diamond? I don't remember that episode.

we didn't read it in school either. wasn't it on the "banned list" also? am i thinking of another of his books? maybe some schools (because of parents?) don't want to have it in their curriculum.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

we didn't read it in school either. wasn't it on the "banned list" also? am i thinking of another of his books? maybe some schools (because of parents?) don't want to have it in their curriculum.

Huck Finn was the banned book, and oddly enough that's usually the one that got read in school.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, msrachelj said:

22 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've gone my whole life without ever reading Tom Sawyer and I didn't skip any grades. I can also believe Sheldon's only indulgence in fictional writing would have been comic books - he would have been too busy studying physics and whatnot to read novels.

we didn't read it in school either.

Sheldon has watched way too much TV and film to be unaware of the Tom Sawyer fence-painting trope (this episode now appears on the list!): 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FencePainting

To those who have never read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, were any of you aware of the existence of the fence painting con, even if you didn't know the literary source?

Points if you thought of Anansi The Spider instead!

Edited October 25, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Katy M]

I think Bernadette shouldn't have asked about tom Sawyer.  We still would have known what she was doing.  And if Sheldon had read it, he may not have made the connection as opposed to the obviousness of her asking first.

[Whimsy]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

To those who have never read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, were any of you aware of the existence of the fence painting con, even if you didn't know the literary source?

Yes.  I never read Tom Sawyer but I know of the fence painting and knew immediately where Bernadette was going...

[Isazouzi]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

To those who have never read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, were any of you aware of the existence of the fence painting con, even if you didn't know the literary source?

 

 

I've never read Tom Sawyer (but I've read Hucleberry Finn) and I don't know what the fence painting con is. Never heard of it. But the terms "fence con" immediately remind me of the Karate Kid ;-)

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 minutes ago, Isazouzi said:

I've never read Tom Sawyer (but I've read Huckleberry Finn) and I don't know what the fence painting con is. Never heard of it. But the terms "fence con" immediately remind me of the Karate Kid ;-)

From http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FencePainting : "Based on the famous whitewashing scene in Mark Twain's The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, where Tom not only tricks the local kids into doing his chore for him, he convinces most of them to pay him for the opportunity. "

[MaryMitch]

4 minutes ago, Isazouzi said:

I've never read Tom Sawyer (but I've read Hucleberry Finn) and I don't know what the fence painting con is. Never heard of it. But the terms "fence con" immediately remind me of the Karate Kid ;-)

Tom was supposed to whitewash his aunt(?)'s fence. He acted like it was so much fun, all his friends wanted to help and eventually ended up doing all the work.

Edited to add: ninja'd by ItCouldBeWorse!

Edited October 25, 2017 by MaryMitch

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

To those who have never read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, were any of you aware of the existence of the fence painting con, even if you didn't know the literary source?

It's been in old cartoons and comedy movies, Looney Tunes for sure.

[Pandorap]

I enjoyed this episode mostly because I like the episodes that show smart women in interesting careers. I know this is a half hour comedy but I wish they would portray Penny more in her chosen field, in a positive manner.  I even miss seeing her in the Cheesecake Factory just a little bit because at least it showed her holding down a job, taking (or trying to) care of herself. 

Loved the interaction between Amy and Howard, it doesn’t happen often and it freshened up the show a bit. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I think he mentioned reading the Harry Potter books.

I cannot remember Sheldon ever referencing Harry Potter - it's Howard who has done that in the past. I can imagine Sheldon seeing the movies but not reading the books. It seems like all of Sheldon's knowledge of Sci Fi comes from comics and movies or TV. I just can't imagine him wasting his time reading fictional novels. 

Quote

To those who have never read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, were any of you aware of the existence of the fence painting con, even if you didn't know the literary source?

Nope. I mean, I put it together once she brought it up, but no, I wasn't aware of the plot point.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I cannot remember Sheldon ever referencing Harry Potter - it's Howard who has done that in the past. I can imagine Sheldon seeing the movies but not reading the books. It seems like all of Sheldon's knowledge of Sci Fi comes from comics and movies or TV. I just can't imagine him wasting his time reading fictional novels. 

Leonard was reading the books and Sheldon spoiled them and Leonard moved out and moved in with Penny over it.  I suppose he could have just watched the movies, but I got the impression that he had read the books.

[CherryAmes]

He definitely read the Harry Potter books, and so did Penny for that matter which is cool.  He also read Tolkein so there's that as well.  He is probably fairly selective in terms of what he reads but they've never portrayed him as someone who only reads comics and watches movies.

[displayname]

11 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I don't disagree that the show should end in the foreseeable future but this year has been consistently good.  If they can keep this up then I'll keep watching.  It's only mid-October but given how few new episodes of shows get made anymore the quality of the ones they've aired so far is, hopefully, a good indicator of a strong season.

I've liked all 5 episodes, and the cast seems happier than ever. The good-ness just never lasts. :P

 

(Also, I really want them to get rid of Raj. I like pretty much everyone else.)

2 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

He definitely read the Harry Potter books, and so did Penny for that matter which is cool.  He also read Tolkein so there's that as well.  He is probably fairly selective in terms of what he reads but they've never portrayed him as someone who only reads comics and watches movies.

Seems weird that he wouldn't have gobbled the entire book list during high school, though.

Edited October 25, 2017 by fan94

[CherryAmes]

I've always wondered about that.  Not just for Sheldon but for any child who is going through high school at a ridiculously young age.  It's one thing to have the intellectual ability to read material intended for an older audience, quite another to really understand and process it.  Someone like Sheldon, for example, would be more than capable of reading Huckleberry Finn (sticking with Mark Twain) at 9 or even younger but would they really be able to appreciate it and understand it?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

I've always wondered about that.  Not just for Sheldon but for any child who is going through high school at a ridiculously young age.  It's one thing to have the intellectual ability to read material intended for an older audience, quite another to really understand and process it.  Someone like Sheldon, for example, would be more than capable of reading Huckleberry Finn (sticking with Mark Twain) at 9 or even younger but would they really be able to appreciate it and understand it?

There are adult books that I read at a young age that I read again as an adult.  I realized I had not understood or appreciated certain things the first time around.

Edited October 26, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[displayname]

56 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

I've always wondered about that.  Not just for Sheldon but for any child who is going through high school at a ridiculously young age.  It's one thing to have the intellectual ability to read material intended for an older audience, quite another to really understand and process it.  Someone like Sheldon, for example, would be more than capable of reading Huckleberry Finn (sticking with Mark Twain) at 9 or even younger but would they really be able to appreciate it and understand it?

 

34 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There are adult books that I read at a young age that I read again as an adult as an adult. I realized I had not understood or appreciated certain things the first time around.

This is true for all media I've consumed! Even some cartoons I see in a completely different light now!

(And some, like Harry Potter, seem like a real waste of my time, now.)

I don't think Sheldon would go "deep" into these kinds of books even as an adult, based on what we see of him on the show.

Edited October 26, 2017 by fan94

[wknt3]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:53 PM, Katy M said:

I really dont' understand why it's considered a continuity error that Howard and Amy like Neil Sedaka.  Is there some law that says you can't like both?  I actually like that Howard picked a different singer, because that to me, says that either they have had other conversations, or they just happen to have even more in common.

Agreed. I think that everyone involved remembered that they bonded over Neil Diamond as those were some classic scenes that everyone seems to think of a high point for the series. Frankly I'm surprised they waited this long to pair them up again for an extended period of time given how good and memorable they were. I think it was deliberate choice too. They were enjoying working together, had established that they had some shared musical tastes and wanted someone similar, but not the same. And Neil Sedaka certainly fits the bill. I would imagine that there is significant overlap in their fan bases and they have performed together even https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlnW2B9YO_A

I think sometimes we expect fiction to have more consistency than real life even as we criticize it for not being realistic enough. Just as real people have irrational attitudes about money they also like more than one singer-songwriter and it's not bad writing when fictional characters share those traits.

[MelinaBallerina]

On 10/24/2017 at 11:01 AM, BckpckFullaNinjas said:

But they couldn’t have danced as easily to “Sweet Caroline,” and to sing along “da da da so good! So good!” wouldntbreally gave fitvthe scene. 

(I think too much about this.) 8-D

They could have used "Cherry Cherry"  It's pretty upbeat

[dungeonwriter]

It's getting irksome how mean everyone is to each other. 

Howard and Amy were the only ones acting like mature adults, and their friendship was sweet and nice. I hope to see more of them working together. I didn't mind the Neil Sadaka/Diamond issue, it showed that they liked more than one artist in common. Plus, they really did awesome work. Howard has really evolved into a nice person, who was incredibly friendly and appropriate. Like, is this the same Howard? Bernadette deserves a Nobel Prize for science, changing a creep into a human being. 

I hope they work together more. 

Again, I keep saying this, but Howard and Bernadette seem to be pulling away more and more. They're really too normal and White Picket Fence for the others. Still, the writers have found a way to integrate them again. 

Did anyone feel kinda sad how happy Amy seemed around Howard? Like she's never this happy around Sheldon, it made me sad. 

And Raj really needs a plot. 

[Katy M]

A 20 minute show can at best support 6 main characters.  4 would probably be better.  But, anyway with 6, you can divide them up in 2 groups of 3 or 3 groups of 2.  Therefore Raj usually gets left out.  This episode actually did a good job of using all 7 on the same story and mixing them around.

[BlossomCulp]

1 hour ago, dungeonwriter said:

Howard and Amy were the only ones acting like mature adults

I'm not sure what you mean I didn't think any of them were acting childishly., particularly with regard to Leonard and Penny.  I thought they had a great few scenes "parenting" Sheldon.  Was that immature and childish of them?  I really didn't see it that way.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, BlossomCulp said:

I'm not sure what you mean I didn't think any of them were acting childishly., particularly with regard to Leonard and Penny.  I thought they had a great few scenes "parenting" Sheldon.  Was that immature and childish of them?  I really didn't see it that way.

I think Sheldon was acting childishly.  But, that's every week.   

[hnygrl]

The part of the Amy/Howard dynamic I really love is she's the only one (literally the only one) in the group (WIFEY Included) who doesn't treat Howard like a backwards child simply because he's an Engineer with a Masters Degree. She respects his science, his brain, his ingenuity. Amy's like that. Remember Kripke? He and Sheldon were both Theoretical Physicists, yet Sheldon treated (and still treats at times) Amy like a backwards child. Anybody not in his scientific field is a backwards child with nothing to contribute. Yet Amy was able to collaborate with Kripke and even helped him advance his science. To Sheldon's horrified surprise.

In Amy's world, everyone has something to contribute. In Sheldon's? If you're not a Theoretical Physicist? He's a backwards child.  That's why her and Howard's collaboration is so beautiful. He listened when she spoke, really listened, and even had something valuable to contribute - that Amy didn't immediately laugh off because...masters degree = stupid.

Can you tell I don't like Sheldon? Does it show?

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

The part of the Amy/Howard dynamic I really love is she's the only one (literally the only one) in the group (WIFEY Included) who doesn't treat Howard like a backwards child simply because he's an Engineer with a Masters Degree.

Penny treats Howard like a loser, but it's not because he only has a Masters degree.  Actually, TBH, I think Sheldon and Bernadette are the only ones who treat him badly because of that.  Raj and Leonard don't act scientifically superior to him.  At least not that I've noticed.

[BlossomCulp]

I don't think Bernadette treats Howard badly.  Least of all because he doesn't have a phd.  She treats him like a child a lot of the time but that's because he acts like one about money and taking any responsibility for the house.  Not sure how he is with the baby.  Does he change diapers?  Do anything for Hallie?  I can't remember.

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, dungeonwriter said:

Did anyone feel kinda sad how happy Amy seemed around Howard? Like she's never this happy around Sheldon, it made me sad. 

Good point.  Amy seems just as exasperated with Sheldon as everyone else a lot of the time, maybe even more so.  She doesn't exactly light up around him like she does with Howard.

[dungeonwriter]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Good point.  Amy seems just as exasperated with Sheldon as everyone else a lot of the time, maybe even more so.  She doesn't exactly light up around him like she does with Howard.

Has Sheldon ever made Amy laugh? Ever? 

Does Sheldon even know that Amy likes Neil Sadaka or Neil Diamond? (And if he does, does he care?) 

I didn't see any romantic spark (and Bernadette would kill them both) but I saw genuine friendship and mutual respect. They praised each other, worked well together and if I were writing a show, the two would have some major break through and Sheldon would have to eat more crow than a starving vulture. 

[shapeshifter]

16 hours ago, dungeonwriter said:

Howard has really evolved into a nice person, who was incredibly friendly and appropriate. Like, is this the same Howard? Bernadette deserves a Nobel Prize for science, changing a creep into a human being. 

Hah! I find this statement particularly witty/amusing in the light of recent harassment scandals.

 

I would like to know whether anyone involved with the creation of this episode gave any thought to the Neil Diamond/Neil Sedaka first name coincidence, especially regarding the fandom effect. I mean, did anyone even recall that the previous song the actors did together was by Neil Diamond? Was someone Googling Neil Diamond songs for the episode and Neil Sedaka songs came up too? Maybe someone will ask at a ComicCon.

[vavera4ka]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 8:34 PM, CherryAmes said:

I've always wondered about that.  Not just for Sheldon but for any child who is going through high school at a ridiculously young age.  It's one thing to have the intellectual ability to read material intended for an older audience, quite another to really understand and process it.  Someone like Sheldon, for example, would be more than capable of reading Huckleberry Finn (sticking with Mark Twain) at 9 or even younger but would they really be able to appreciate it and understand it?

We read those Twain books as pre-teens, about the age of the main characters. Granted, it was in Europe, where they don't really teach American history and slavery. I mean they talk a bit about slaves from conquered lands after wars, and that doesn't require special treatment in the class. Spoils of war, not the business like it was in Americas.

So to us at that age the books were about fun adventures of kids. Same with Wizard of Oz, Gulliver's travels, etc. Those were all considered kids' books and read by pre-teens.

To understand the fence painting scheme a kid doesn't need a vast social and political knowledge of the time period. Like it was mentioned later, good books (and movies) work on so many levels and appeal to different age groups, social and educational levels.

I don't remember if it was a series of books, or just a series of stories in one book, but my fav was when Tom and Becky got lost in the caves. I've probably read that one dozens of times. And dreamt of being lost with them and having fun, and then finding the way out.

Edited October 27, 2017 by vavera4ka

[Chit Chat]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:38 PM, rmontro said:

Amy seems just as exasperated with Sheldon as everyone else a lot of the time, maybe even more so.  She doesn't exactly light up around him like she does with Howard.

We've seen Amy light up around Sheldon numerous times: when he told her he loved her for the first time; when he came back from Texas after seeing his nephew being born; when Amy saw that Sheldon made her his screen saver; on the train when he kissed her the first time;  when he made her his 'first contact' for an emergency situation; and many other small gestures he's made.  Yeah, he can be exasperating, but Amy truly loves him, and whenever someone has made a disparaging remark about Sheldon, she usually defends him.  That's true love!  She loves him warts and all, just as most of us do with our spouses/significant others and family members!

I get tired of seeing Leonard get frustrated with Sheldon.  I understand why, but sometimes his reaction to Sheldon is hurtful.  Sheldon once told him that it hurts his feelings when he does that.  He mentioned how he notices it, and it bothers him.  I like the old episodes when they showed Sheldon & Leonard when they're having fun together and not annoying each other so much.  Having Leonard so exasperated all the time gets old, IMO.  

Edited October 28, 2017 by ChitChat

[SmithW6079]

2 hours ago, ChitChat said:

I get tired of seeing Leonard get frustrated with Sheldon.  I understand why, but sometimes his reaction to Sheldon is hurtful.  Sheldon once told him that it hurts his feelings when he does that.  He mentioned how he notices it, and it bothers him.  I like the old episodes when they showed Sheldon & Leonard when they're having fun together and not annoying each other so much.  Having Leonard so exasperated all the time gets old, IMO.  

Week after week, Sheldon is rude and condescending to his friends. He deserves every bit of Leonard's scorn. If Leonard being mean to him bothers Sheldon, then maybe Sheldon should look at his own behavior, except he never does.

[Gulftastic]

Howard's panic about being able to afford to raise Hallie doesn't seem to have re-surfaced following Bernie's second bun in the oven. Are we to assume that despite the Govt. confiscating their work that they are still going to get money from the project?

[Kerri Okie]

On 10/24/2017 at 1:53 PM, Katy M said:

I really dont' understand why it's considered a continuity error that Howard and Amy like Neil Sedaka.  Is there some law that says you can't like both? 

I don't understand it either.  I like both.  No reason why Howard and Amy can't, too.

I often find Bernadette grating, but I enjoyed her in this episode.  I loved that she didn't get jealous in the least and just wanted time alone to get her own work done.  

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Week after week, Sheldon is rude and condescending to his friends. He deserves every bit of Leonard's scorn. If Leonard being mean to him bothers Sheldon, then maybe Sheldon should look at his own behavior, except he never does.

Leonard is supposed to be Sheldon's best friend, so sometimes it's a little surprising when Leonard acts like he practically hates him.  But you're right, there's no way you can say Sheldon doesn't have it coming.

[Sile]

We had Mark Twain and Huckleberry Finn read to us in elementary school.  Through Grade 6 there was an hour or so every day where the teacher would read aloud to the class.  Other books I remember are Pippi Longstocking, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Island of the Blue Dolphins and Johnny Tremain.  Can you imagine kids these days actually having the patience to sit and listen to somebody read without fiddling with some device?

Not sure if the school had a reading list for the teachers to choose from or they made their own.  I had the same teacher in 4th and 6th grade and he's the one that read both Twain books.  He'd really get into it, too, with facial expressions and accents and such.

[shapeshifter]

Likely Sheldon missed quite a few of the "required reading" books when he skipped grades.

[Driad]

At least once in middle or high school, a teacher assigned a book that I found too boring to read. But the teacher discussed the book in class, I took notes on the points she made, and I aced the quiz. Surely Sheldon could do that.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Driad said:

At least once in middle or high school, a teacher assigned a book that I found too boring to read. But the teacher discussed the book in class, I took notes on the points she made, and I aced the quiz. Surely Sheldon could do that.

He could do it.  But, I'm sure that Sheldon would consider that cheating, or against the rules, and wouldn't do it.  He really does have his own set of rigid ethics that he won't betray. 

[Zoe]

On 10/28/2017 at 1:40 PM, Gulftastic said:

Howard's panic about being able to afford to raise Hallie doesn't seem to have re-surfaced following Bernie's second bun in the oven. Are we to assume that despite the Govt. confiscating their work that they are still going to get money from the project?

No reason they wouldn't.  They fulfilled their end of the contract.

[MrSmith]

On 10/24/2017 at 0:28 PM, hoodooznoodooz said:

Amy and Howard were in a car, happily enjoying a Neil Diamond tune.

This does not preclude them from also liking Neil Sedaka or simply liking that one single song by Neil Sedaka. I can't stand Metallica, but there is one song by them that I find listenable. Damned if I know the title, but I know it when I hear it!

On 10/24/2017 at 3:12 PM, vibeology said:

This is really the first time they've addressed this but I do get the sense that while Sheldon knows his science and math, he's wobbly on the arts and other things like that. The speed he went through school, he just wouldn't have had the time to properly cover all of that and it's not like we ever see him reading a novel or going to a play that didn't star Penny. There's just no way he's got the arts and social sciences down pat. I've always wanted to see what would happen if someone in a "lesser" field like literature or history challenged him in some way because I've always suspected he doesn't have the same base of knowledge. This was pretty close.

Not only would he not have had time and not have in-depth knowledge, he wouldn't have been interested. Most likely, he views them as superfluous and a waste of time. So going through school, if he had time available after completing his studies and had a choice between learning about arts/social sciences or doing more of what interests him, he's going to insult any reasons for learning about arts/social sciences and proceed to ignore them.