S07.E08: Winter of Our Discontent

[ShadowHunter]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I found the first couple of episodes really creepy, but in the last few season, Murphy and Co have always added  a campy element which takes all of the scare out it for me. On top of that, they are relying on gore, rather than seriously creepy storytelling. I liked the part with the RIck Springfield house, but it didn't really explain much to me either about Kai's motivations or why Winter is allowing herself to be treated like chattel. Kai seemed intent on saving the innocent people in the Judgement House, and in what must be a short time later, kills everyone in sight. I do like it that Ally and perhaps Beverly will be fighting back because a show where bad guys just kill and kill with no fight back is just dull.

The scene where Kai was in all seriousness playing "I Swear" as he hoped his sister would become pregnant was just too silly for words. I think people follow some strange stuff when they are isolated in a compound, but to be walking around in a city and still believe in stuff like this is a little much. As others have mentioned, City Council meetings are public venues, (I am a reporter and was just at one myself), and news of the nazi like security team would spread fast. They have to do a better job of telling why numerous connected murders, a blue haired councilman needing heavily armed men around him, and trucks spraying unknown chemicals etc doesn't get noticed at all. 

Disagree I don't think Beverly is a good person. She killed just as easily as Kai does. 

I would like to know how he got that army though. That I agree with. They just showed up. How and Why?

[mansfolly]

The scene towards the end, in the basement. When (Beverly?) was stating Kai is not fit to rule.... I turned my head and just listened to the dialogue coming from Kai -- and those words could have been uttered by #45 any day -- with others around him yelling how unfit and unstable he is.

It does seem like Kai running off the rails at an increased pace and starting to make things up as he goes.

I am finding that while watching this show, as each episode airs, I'm turning my eyes away more and more. The scene in the Rick Springfield horror house with the post abortion woman was unwatchable for me. The "messiah" seeding scene was batsh_t crazy.  As others mentioned, so glad Winter came to her senses.

I too was surprised Ally sold out the Dr so quickly --- but after everything he let her suffer -- I can see why.  

When she gave the sloppy joe to Kai, she didn't turn off the flame! That bothered me!

How is Ivy making any income now that her restaurant it the barracks for Kai's militia men?  That mortgage is not paying itself.

I was not surprised when Ally took off the clown mask to reveal herself. Yes, who is watching Oz?

Will continue to watch... to see who comes out on top. Where was Bibi this week and how does she fit in all this?

[Stringey]

I loved this episode. How many takes i wonder did they have to do while filming the almost weird orgies scene. They had to be cracking up. Kai saying "so Samuel will put his seed in you while I mount him behind are you cool with that"?? Lol lol lol. Well that was not the exact quote but i know the last thing he said was are you cool with that. Very funny. That was definitely meant to be satire of the ridiculous ideas cults have. Also loved winter and the dunce hat especially when it got caught in the door ha. I like  the fact they were messing with our heads and i was sure the psychiatrist was orchestrating some of the stuff like the coffin murders. As it turns out kai was snooping on the case files. Also the scene with ally and kai made me hungry for sloppy Joes.

[mamadrama]

For those asking about the "sin houses" or "hell houses", for$299 you can create your own! Show various sins and paths to hell, including gay marriages and abortion. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/24/hell-houses_n_2012207.html

 

I've never been to one of these, but a local church puts one on. I stay away by principle but I really want to go for the snark. (Unfortunately, it's not snark for a lot of these people. They truly believe they're doing something good.) 

[mamadrama]

Here's another one, for your reading enjoyment. This one is actually called "Judgment House."

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/judgement-hell-house-halloween-alabama-evangelical/382184/

So I think the house in last night's episode was based on these haunted house attractions, with a little bit of SAW added. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by mamadrama

[Empress1]

3 hours ago, mansfolly said:

The scene towards the end, in the basement. When (Beverly?) was stating Kai is not fit to rule.... I turned my head and just listened to the dialogue coming from Kai -- and those words could have been uttered by #45 any day -- with others around him yelling how unfit and unstable he is.

It does seem like Kai running off the rails at an increased pace and starting to make things up as he goes.

I am finding that while watching this show, as each episode airs, I'm turning my eyes away more and more. The scene in the Rick Springfield horror house with the post abortion woman was unwatchable for me. The "messiah" seeding scene was batsh_t crazy.  As others mentioned, so glad Winter came to her senses.

I too was surprised Ally sold out the Dr so quickly --- but after everything he let her suffer -- I can see why.  

When she gave the sloppy joe to Kai, she didn't turn off the flame! That bothered me!

How is Ivy making any income now that her restaurant it the barracks for Kai's militia men?  That mortgage is not paying itself.

I was not surprised when Ally took off the clown mask to reveal herself. Yes, who is watching Oz?

Will continue to watch... to see who comes out on top. Where was Bibi this week and how does she fit in all this?

I think that was intentional and I thought it was clever. The "you promised me equal partnership" line reminded me of The Handmaid's Tale when Serena Joy realizes that she's created a world in which women are second-class citizens at best and she is not and will not be an exception. And of course we've heard 45 say a million times that he expects loyalty.

The "let's impregnate Winter" scene (and I haaaaaaate "I Swear" because I heard it approximately six billion times when it came out) was just weird and nasty, "even for [Kai]," as Winter said.

Ally is about to fuck Ivy up and I am here for it. I hate Ivy the most.

[Mattipoo]

Is this supposed to be the “Halloween” episode like in previous seasons when they featured special characters like Edward Mondrake and his ghost posse (in “Freak show”) and the party with the serial killers (in “Hotel”)?

That threesome scene was hilarious. Probably one of the most intentionally funny scenes in the series ever.

So how did they get Beverly away from her reporter job to work in the kitchen?

What happened to Frances Conroy? Hopefully she will be back at some point.

Samuels was my least favorite character so I am glad he is gone.

I think this season will end with Ally overthrowing Kai, with maybe Beverly’s help. Like last season when Adina Porter and Sarah Paulson were the last 2 characters standing at the end.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Mattipoo

[ShadowHunter]

Happy to see they were laughing. You have too I guess lol

 

[Stringey]

I can picture the season ending like this. We know from the next preview Oz becomes aware of the cult. Well maybe he does or does not exactly understand what's going on. Well I can see everyone dying by the end of the season including Kai. It seems like the terror of kai's reign is over. They give an indication of say about fifteen years passing. A young man is passionately speaking to a group of college kids in a lecture hall. There is the creepy tension music after several seconds and it's clear he is very poised and intelligent but dangerous. There is a large picture of kai close to him and it's clear kai has been his inspiration. After some enthusiastic applause a voice says  thank you for coming Mr. Oz Mayfair(is that the correct last name?).

Edited October 26, 2017 by Stringey

[Dobian]

I'm not even going to try to make sense of this season anymore, my head will explode.

[queenanne]

18 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

Again, the modern setting really hurts this series. 

I did love Rick Springfield's Hell House. I just had no idea why Kai and Winter's youthful adventures in crazy were relevant. I did find the creepy incest angle and messiah ceremony hilarious and a nice dash of just how cray Kai it

A city council meeting with ahem blue shirted storm troopers literally holding guns while the council is threatened into creating a private security army? Yeah that's going to get outside attention.

Likewise a bunch of blue shirted Nazi styled thugs setting up their own little beer hall in the Butchery. Beverly not working as a reporter but hanging around a restaurant cooking for the boys? Doesn't she have a job?

Generally Kai really doesn't seem so smart that I can believe he can mastermind a normal life let alone a rise to power and letting Ally into the cult after pointedly victimizing her is kind of a problem.

Yeah... they lost me when I was supposed to be "incensed" that the women were forced to wait on the men.  I mean, HELLO.  Literally nothing is literally stopping you walking out any open door and never returning/leaving the city/etc.  As an "urgently oppressive and nightmarish cult you can't escape", it lacks a little something, and I'm not convinced by the "interior urgency" type reasons.  Where are the outside forces also holding them there?  The scary consequences?  The people waiting to stop them at "the border", wherever and whatever "the border" might be?  

Edited October 26, 2017 by queenanne

[llewis823]

12 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Ally is about to fuck Ivy up and I am here for it. I hate Ivy the most.

WORD!

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

Yeah... they lost me when I was supposed to be "incensed" that the women were forced to wait on the men.  I mean, HELLO.  Literally nothing is literally stopping you walking out any open door and never returning/leaving the city/etc.  As an "urgently oppressive and nightmarish cult you can't escape", it lacks a little something, and I'm not convinced by the "interior urgency" type reasons.  Where are the outside forces also holding them there?  The scary consequences?  The people waiting to stop them at "the border", wherever and whatever "the border" might be?

And there lies the problem. Yes, Kai did nail gun a follower for essentially nothing in order to maintain discipline but he in no way appears to have any reach beyond the city. And while I think he does observe his followers, he's not monitoring them constantly. I could argue Winter has familial ties, but Ivy certainly doesn't AND Ivy isn't really getting anything out of this - With Ally of all people being embraced by Kai, and with Ally owning the Butchery, what does Ivy have holding her that makes her decide being a Handmaid is worth it?

Beverly does have all the murders to consider but again, she's literally getting nothing out of this. And Kai has no reach

[kelslamu]

I'm having a hard time liking this season.  It seems they took all the crazy, threw it at the wall, and went with what stuck for them.  I guess most seasons are like this though.  Maybe Kai and his posse getting away with everything constantly is what takes me out of it.   I can't see all his followers being so enamored of him that they don't just walk away from his brand of crazy.  I will say thank God there was no Lena Dunham in this one.  

Edited October 26, 2017 by kelslamu

[Lady Iris]

I'm enjoying this season so far. I'm glad to see Evan up and front in this one. I read about the threesome scene here before I watched it last night and damn that was ludicrous, funny and nutty all rolled into one.

And damn if I don't want a manwich now!

Edited October 26, 2017 by Lady Iris
spelling counts

[MaggieG]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:06 AM, RalyWilmy said:

I'm not sure if that was intended to be comedy but my daughter and I were in stitches during that scene.  Don't get me wrong, we thought it was insane.  It was mostly the dialog.  "This is the song that will be played every time a messiah is conceived", "Isn't the whole point of a messiah is that there's only one?"

 

On 10/25/2017 at 7:24 AM, mamadrama said:

It HAD to be intended comedy, right? Because I laughed until I was blue in the face: the song, the way Kai ripped off his robe, the outfits, the dialouge, the rolling of Winter's eyes...pure gold. 

 I am so glad I'm not the only one that was cracking up during that scene. I actually rewound it to watch it again, it was that nutty. I laughed every time Kai said "Messiah baby."  I wonder if the actors had a hard time keeping a straight face, I know I would have.

[diebartdie]

On 10/25/2017 at 9:46 AM, Pixel said:

How the hell did that fucked up family produce an actual doctor? Or therapist, or whatever medical professional he was?

Well, seems like most serial killers have some sort of day job since having money probably makes it easier to procure supplies for all the murdering? Anyway, here's a doctor for you...

Quote

Like Ted Bundy, Dr. Harold Shipman saved lives in addition to taking them. While working as a GP in Britain, Shipman murdered over 200 patients. Most were elderly women to whom he administered lethal doses of diamorphine. He signed their death certificates and then falsified medical records.

Perhaps even more horrifying, Shipman had often been required to treat his mother with the same drug while she was battling cancer in his care. Although he had been previously investigated, it was not until the daughter of one of his victims discovered a will in which her mother had supposedly left her estate to the doctor that police were sufficiently alerted. A rigorous investigation ensued.

Shipman was charged with 15 counts of murder and went on to hang himself in his jail cell the day before his 58th birthday. That being said, the doctor did manage to revolutionize standard medical procedure in Britain. His crimes resulted in a series of alterations, which have been fittingly referred to as the “Shipman effect.”[8]

[ShadowHunter]

2 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I'm enjoying this season so far. I'm glad to see Evan up and front in this one. I read about the threesome scene here before I watched it last night and damn that was ludicrous, funny and nutty all rolled into one.

And damn if I don't want a manwich now!

It would have been darker and a bit less nutty had Kai wanted to be the one. Just him and Winter. At first when he started to talk thats where it looked like it was going. I feel bad cause when Kai said "You cool with that" I laughed. It was the way Evan said it. 

Cheyenne Jackson is a waste on this show. In Season 5 his character Will Drake was just around. Vincent had potential but he was killed off. Even before that he was missing from an episode or had a quick scene. 

[mamadrama]

I kind of hope Kai and Ally hook up. He can take over the world and she can make him Sloppy Joes. 

[sugarbaker design]

18 hours ago, Mattipoo said:

Is this supposed to be the “Halloween” episode like in previous seasons when they featured special characters like Edward Mondrake and his ghost posse (in “Freak show”) and the party with the serial killers (in “Hotel”)?

Wouldn't that be next week's 10.31.17 episode?

[ZoloftBlob]

I do kind of hope that the "bring forth the messiah" story line goes to the darker "Kai wants his sister to have his baby" place... I was actually surprised they backed away from that so easily.

[sugarbaker design]

16 hours ago, Stringey said:

thank you for coming Mr. Oz Mayfair(is that the correct last name?).

Wouldn't it be Oz Mayfair-Richards?

[LoneHaranguer]

On 10/25/2017 at 2:34 PM, Madding crowd said:

I believe it could go on, but I also think it would be covered in the newspapers and TV, and the public would want some answers as to what is going on in their city. National politics is difficult for people to get close to in terms of getting answers, but city council meetings are public affairs and given the number of murders in that city, I would bet the public would show up demanding answers and asking questions. 

I think it would depend on what's normal for that city. You don't have to be a NYC or Chicago to have a high ongoing murder rate. You can have established criminal enterprises that most people don't care about as long as they keep any violence to themselves. Up to a point, Kai's killings can be written off.

[Stringey]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

Wouldn't it be Oz Mayfair-Richards?

Yeah I forgot about the two names. Did ally have the last name Mayfair or Richards?  I honestly think at some point when Oz learns what ivy has done to ally he will turn on her. Perhaps drop ivys last name? Whether that's Mayfair or Richards can't remember which one ivy is.

1 hour ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I do kind of hope that the "bring forth the messiah" story line goes to the darker "Kai wants his sister to have his baby" place... I was actually surprised they backed away from that so easily.

Yeah I was thinking he was trying to suggest that before he made it clear he would only be having sex with Samuel while Samuel had sex with her. Lol

[skotnikov]

Oh no, Vincent is dead, who will give Kai adderall now?

[Stringey]

5 minutes ago, skotnikov said:

Oh no, Vincent is dead, who will give Kai adderall now?

Someone clear this up is adderall for depression or adhd

[skotnikov]

25 minutes ago, Stringey said:

Someone clear this up is adderall for depression or adhd

ADHD for sure 

[Stringey]

12 minutes ago, skotnikov said:

ADHD for sure 

Oh yeah I was thinking it was for that. I was diagnosed with add in the past and took something called dexedrine  for a while.

[mamadrama]

6 hours ago, Stringey said:

Someone clear this up is adderall for depression or adhd

Mostly for ADHD. I have a brain malformation and it causes severe neurological issues, like brain fog, loss of concentration, short term memory loss, etc. It also depletes my dopamine levels which also causes depression. I take Adderall for the symptoms and it helps a lot. It DOES help with my depression because my depression is dopamine based and Adderrall helps this. 

[PsychoDrone]

The one thing that bothers me about this cult is the people are free to come and go as they please.  Usually, cults had compounds where the members were kept isolated and easier to control.  A person would have to be a true(rabid) believer to put up with the nonsense Kai is doing and stick around.  WHICH, I just don't buy.  Just last episode (several days in TV time), the women were on the verge of revolt and kicking Kai to the curb.  This episode, Conroy is nowhere to be seen and the women have been relegated to being servants.  Maybe Kai's sister wouldn't turn on him, but I believe the others would have asserted themselves and said "Enough!!"

I am going to finish the season, but my ability to suspend disbelief is pretty low.

[Pixel]

22 hours ago, PsychoDrone said:

The one thing that bothers me about this cult is the people are free to come and go as they please.  Usually, cults had compounds where the members were kept isolated and easier to control.  A person would have to be a true(rabid) believer to put up with the nonsense Kai is doing and stick around.  WHICH, I just don't buy.  Just last episode (several days in TV time), the women were on the verge of revolt and kicking Kai to the curb.  This episode, Conroy is nowhere to be seen and the women have been relegated to being servants.  Maybe Kai's sister wouldn't turn on him, but I believe the others would have asserted themselves and said "Enough!!"

I am going to finish the season, but my ability to suspend disbelief is pretty low.

I wondered about that too. First, I was thinking we were still early on in the cult days, so they wouldn't have necessarily closed up in a compound yet, but they have to have at least come far enough that people are accepting of murders and stuff, right? But then again, as a fan of the franchise, I pretty much suspend any disbelief going into it. I know before any AHS season starts that somewhere around the middle the storyline goes off the rails, story threads get dropped to never be seen again (vampire children running around LA killing people, anyone?), and everything gets batshit crazy (and not in a good way). I know what I signed on for. 

[Stringey]

On 10/26/2017 at 4:00 PM, skotnikov said:

ADHD for sure 

Oh yeah I was thinking it was for that. I was diagnosed with add in the past and took something called dexedrine  for a while.

So I cannot  figure out if kai is bisexual and banged Samuel to manipulate him and control him or is completely heterosexual and still willing to bang Samuel to have control of him. I know he told(i just blanked out on his name) meadows fake husband at the gym he liked girls only but we know he lies.

[Pixel]

2 hours ago, Stringey said:

Oh yeah I was thinking it was for that. I was diagnosed with add in the past and took something called dexedrine  for a while.

So I cannot  figure out if kai is bisexual and banged Samuel to manipulate him and control him or is completely heterosexual and still willing to bang Samuel to have control of him. I know he told(i just blanked out on his name) meadows fake husband at the gym he liked girls only but we know he lies.

I think he may be asexual and just using sex to manipulate others. Maybe asexual isn’t the right word. He strikes me as not caring about the sex or being attracted to anyone. It’s just a tool he uses to get what he wants, he doesn’t care if it’s from a woman or a man. 

[Stringey]

24 minutes ago, Pixel said:

I think he may be asexual and just using sex to manipulate others. Maybe asexual isn’t the right word. He strikes me as not caring about the sex or being attracted to anyone. It’s just a tool he uses to get what he wants, he doesn’t care if it’s from a woman or a man. 

I don't know if I think he is asexual but maybe he is such a sociopath and or emotionally damaged he has no attachment or love for anyone. Basically incapable of feeling love or being in love with a person in terms of caring about them. However even those people still get off on something whatever that is. They want the sex simply just for the sex like an animal. They also use sex as a tool to manipulate people. They only care about their own interests and use people to meet their own goals. Hopefully what I described is a small population of people.

[Stringey]

30 minutes ago, Stringey said:

I don't know if I think he is asexual but maybe he is such a sociopath and or emotionally damaged he has no attachment or love for anyone. Basically incapable of feeling love or being in love with a person in terms of caring about them. However even those people still get off on something whatever that is. They want the sex simply just for the sex like an animal. They also use sex as a tool to manipulate people. They only care about their own interests and use people to meet their own goals. Hopefully what I described is a small population of people.

We don't really know what his goal is with this whole thing. Here is a possibility. I think it's  simply that he is a sadist. He has got control right now of this little group of people although for how long. I honestly believe he enjoys killing for killing and enjoys getting people to kill. He has made it to city council and I don't know how but appears to be able to manipulate some of the other members. The thing about getting that other guy to agree with him real  fast about the extra protection seemed a little forced and unrealistic. He is clearly delusional if he thinks he is going to rise politically with his insane mind. He won't be able to manipulate the masses like he can a small little group of people he intimately knows. If this season had some supernatural stuff to it and kai was something like the anti Christ I could buy him continually rising and gaining control over people but that is clearly not the case here.

[rmontro]

On 10/26/2017 at 3:30 PM, mamadrama said:

I kind of hope Kai and Ally hook up. He can take over the world and she can make him Sloppy Joes. 

I could see it.  When she first served the Sloppy Joes, I thought she was serving him his brother, that she had killed and cooked up.  Regardless, I've already decided to make Sloppy Joes next week.

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

I could see it.  When she first served the Sloppy Joes, I thought she was serving him his brother, that she had killed and cooked up.  Regardless, I've already decided to make Sloppy Joes next week.

Didn't they look great? I don't even like them, and I've been craving them since Tuesday night. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

vampire children running around LA killing people, anyone?

This actually did resolve - the vampire children were brought to the hotel and locked up in the secret secure floor, and later killed by a larger stronger vampire.

It wasn't a great resolution but it did resolve.

Is this season a 10 episode or 12 episode season?

[Mr. Sparkle]

8 minutes ago, ZoloftBlob said:

Is this season a 10 episode or 12 episode season?

11

[ZoloftBlob]

Really? How odd :)

[Mr. Sparkle]

They can't even. 

[Stringey]

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

I could see it.  When she first served the Sloppy Joes, I thought she was serving him his brother, that she had killed and cooked up.  Regardless, I've already decided to make Sloppy Joes next week.

I would have laughed myself to the point of choking if we had seen a manwhich commercial this episode given it was mentioned.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Didn't they look great? I don't even like them, and I've been craving them since Tuesday night. 

Funny how shows like this can set off cravings.  It's not exactly health food, but tater tots go well with sloppy joes.  It didn't look like Ally had prepared a side dish.

[Stringey]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Funny how shows like this can set off cravings.  It's not exactly health food, but tater tots go well with sloppy joes.  It didn't look like Ally had prepared a side dish.

I usually have potato chips with it.  A salad tastes good with it too. And you probably will think I am insane but I have never ate a tater tot in my life. I guess French fries and hash browns are what I like. Hey and here is what is great about sloppy Joe meat when you have some left over. You can use the left over meat to either make more Joes the next day or you got taco or burrito meat. Ok now it's 11 pm and I am hungry.

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Funny how shows like this can set off cravings.  It's not exactly health food, but tater tots go well with sloppy joes.  It didn't look like Ally had prepared a side dish.

Hey is it weird that this episode would have still had me wanting a sloppy Joe even if it had turned out the sloppy Joe they were eating had been Vincent meat?? 

[Pixel]

On 10/29/2017 at 11:46 AM, ZoloftBlob said:

This actually did resolve - the vampire children were brought to the hotel and locked up in the secret secure floor, and later killed by a larger stronger vampire.

It wasn't a great resolution but it did resolve.

Is this season a 10 episode or 12 episode season?

Oh, that's right. I forgot. 

[JenE4]

Did anything happen after Ally took off her mask? The FX app froze and restarted from the beginning, but there looked like there was still some time left. (But perhaps just a dramatic pan and credits.) Also, she was terrorized by the hands-head clown so was that originally the neighbor’s mask or someone else Kai/they killed off?

Also, why did Kai kill his brother? I fell asleep the first time through, multi-tasked until the FX app caught up to where I THINK I left off, and I obviously missed more than I thought, lol. No way I’m sitting through this a THIRD time!

Edited October 31, 2017 by JenE4
Remembered something else I forgot

[BlancheDevoreaux]

On 10/29/2017 at 11:55 AM, ZoloftBlob said:

Really? How odd :)

And prime. 

 

 

 

Thank you folks. I'll be here all night. Don't forget to tip your waitress. 

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Also, why did Kai kill his brother?

Kai was tipped off by Ally that his brother was looking into having him committed.

[OldButHappy]

On October 29, 2017 at 2:36 AM, rmontro said:

When she first served the Sloppy Joes, I thought she was serving him his brother, that she had killed and cooked up

"...A sandwich is a sandwich, but a Manwich is a meal!..."

Anyone else here old enough to remember theses commercials?  ;)   

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, OldButHappy said:

"...A sandwich is a sandwich, but a Manwich is a meal!..."

Anyone else here old enough to remember theses commercials?  ;)   

I'm old enough, and I do.  I finally had my sloppy joes earlier in the week.  For some reason, I saw a can of Del Monte original sloppy joe mix and got that instead of the Manwich I usually get.  I like Del Monte's vegetables so I gave it a chance.  I have to say it wasn't bad.  It was very similar in taste but it seemed to have a thicker texture and was somewhat spicier.  Not saying I prefer it to Manwich, but there's definitely going to be a choice to be made now.