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Hollywood's Dirty Little (Open) Secrets: Harvey Weinstein and Others Like Him

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5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

This. No matter how formal or longstanding the relationship, he accepted the role of father figure when he got into a serious relationship with Farrow (apparently never married, even though they had one biological* child together and he had Dylan take his surname). Moral transgression is a great way of putting it, and pushes back against all of Allen's defenders who toy around with the legalities and insist on this terminology or that terminology to give Allen a pass.

Even if Allen and Farrow had only ever been friends, it would have been considered weird for him to then date and marry her daughter.

Exactly. This isn't a friggin soap opera/Danielle Steel/VC Andrews novel where this is perfectly common and acceptable behavior (and even within these fantasy worlds, there have been people who who have been disgusted and vehemently opposed to it). This is real life. He knew her from when she was a child and got involved with her when she was essentially STILL a child (and don't give me that "he's/she's 18, he's/she's an adult" bullshit. The difference between a minor and a legal adult is 24 hours. No 18 year old instantly has the wisdom and maturity of an adult that they were lacking the day before).

(I just rewatched "Blue Jasmine" and I'm cringing at the scene in which the title character confronts her 55-year old husband over the fact that he's having an affair with an 18-year old girl and he responds by not only confessing, but declaring that he's in love with her and going to marry her. The wife has a nervous breakdown at all this, culminating in her calling the FBI on him. It would be very self-referential, except that the husband is blasted, not lauded for his behavior, and what the wife calls the feds about--fraud--is true).

Edited by Dr.OO7
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I Love the double standard. Saint Mia has vilified  Woody Allen for 35 years. And yet when her brother, John Villiers-Farrow, was charged and subsequently convicted for child rape against 2 boys both over several years she stood right behind him. He just got out after serving 7 years on a 10 year plea.

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1 hour ago, Zella said:

Yeah I'm baffled by the idea that believing Woody Allen molested his adopted daughter means Mia Farrow is a saint. She can be a terrible person in her own right and Woody Allen can also be a piece of shirt. That's not mutually exclusive.

Which makes me doubly sorry for the children they raised together. I really have no use for either of them. 

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4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Which makes me doubly sorry for the children they raised together. I really have no use for either of them. 

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a pretty dysfunctional environment there. What Moses Farrow has said about the general pecking order among the children rings true to me, sadly. 

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6 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Crazy, awful people get abused too, and they are less likely to be supported and believed. 

That's the very reason why they're targeted. I have said time and again that predators and abusers are sick, but not stupid. They know exactly who to go after--what makes them vulnerable in the first place (like having already been abused somehow), what makes them less likely to tell or fight back (again, like having already been abused somehow), or unlikely to be believed if they do speak up (if someone's known as a troublemaker, their credibility is probably already gone).

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10 minutes ago, bobalina said:

Mia does.

Person has high opinion of self and sees self as hero of own story. SHOCKING.

I’m certain Woody thinks of himself as a persecuted innocent.

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Settlement Deal Reached in James Franco Sexual Misconduct Suit

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Actresses and ex-students Sarah Tither-Kaplan and Toni Gaal, who first filed the lawsuit in 2019, have agreed to drop their individual claims under the agreement, according to the court filing. Their lawsuit said Franco pushed his students into performing in increasingly explicit sex scenes on camera in an "orgy type setting" that went far beyond those acceptable on Hollywood film sets.

So they're presumably getting money for this?

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11 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

That's the very reason why they're targeted. I have said time and again that predators and abusers are sick, but not stupid. They know exactly who to go after--what makes them vulnerable in the first place (like having already been abused somehow), what makes them less likely to tell or fight back (again, like having already been abused somehow), or unlikely to be believed if they do speak up (if someone's known as a troublemaker, their credibility is probably already gone).

What people often forget as well is how downright charming predators and abusers can be to others.  One of my cousin's was married to a man who ended up abusing her daughter from her first marriage.  People outside their immediate circle though had no idea he was even capable of that because to them (and to us) he presented as a really sweet guy.  As things turned out we were never in a position of having to take sides but I can certainly understand how his own family and close friends would have had a hard time believing the worst of him.

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Similarly, young boys and men are told to "man up" or some such thing, which leaves them vulnerable to abuse, as well.

We won't achieve any real systemic change until society learns to challenge old, harmful attitudes.

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11 hours ago, Dani said:

I don't really know much about this story but in general it seems that someone leaving their abusive partner isn't always the instant fix to that problem. I mean there is a reason that abuse shelters work hard to make sure the people staying there can't be found. And in one of the most infamous cases of an abusive relationship Nicole Brown divorced OJ and he still killed her 2 years later.

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2 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Here's my theory, feel free to dispute it:

Why do abused girls or women not speak up? Why don't they do anything?

Because, from a very young age, we dismiss and trivialize girls' discomfort and personal space.

The creepy uncle who tickles them too much? "Oh, stop screaming, have a sense of humor, he's just teasing, he does it because he loves you! He's from a different time, it would break his heart if he knew how you felt!"

The mean boy in class who harasses them on a daily basis? "Stop being an easy target! Just ignore him! Boys will be boys, he probably just likes you!"

The boss who hugs them a little too tight/long/often? "You need this job, so buck up. You didn't say or do anything to lead him on, did you? You know he's married, right?"

Girls (and women) are constantly told they're in the wrong. We're the ones who need to suck it up, tolerate it, ignore our own feelings, not to be a killjoy/snob/whiner/bad sport/whatever. If we say anything, we're lying snitches who just want attention/money/fame, even though, the majority of the time, we just want whatever's happening to stop. 

If you're told that you're wrong or mistaken often enough, you either ignore or fail to notice when you're absolutely right. 

All of this. Plus the annoying guy who keeps asking you out no matter how many times you tell him "No". "He's just a sweet boy who really likes you! Why won't you give him a chance? Shame on you for being so mean to him!" (An attitude reinforced by the million movies and TV shows that tell us that it's flattering and romantic when a guy refuses to hear a woman telling him "No" and continues chasing her, to the point of interrupting her wedding).

My first MeToo story is of being stalked for an entire year by an ex-boyfriend who refused to accept that I'd ended our relationship. You would not believe how many people, including my own PARENTS, kept telling me some version of what I just wrote --as my father put it, "That's how a man gets a good woman."

My second is of being sexually harassed by one of my graduate school professors. A classmate who absolutely adored him dismissed all of my complaints, insisted that he was trying to be a mentor to me, and chastised me for not being grateful that he was taking such an interest in my personal life. Years later, she was outraged to hear that he'd been "relieved of his position". "How dare they fire him! How dare they make it sound like he did something wrong!" Meanwhile, I'm just shaking my head, knowing that he must have taken it too far with some other girl.

Like I said, sick, not stupid. Aside from knowing who to victimize, these guys know how to cultivate this "Mr. Terrific" image so that no one can imagine him capable of something so vile.

Edited by Dr.OO7
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1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Similarly, young boys and men are told to "man up" or some such thing, which leaves them vulnerable to abuse, as well.

We won't achieve any real systemic change until society learns to challenge old, harmful attitudes.

Not only that, outright told to continue pursuing girls who have told them "No".

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

So a boy is now going to be maligned for actually respecting a girl's personal space and/or the fact that she told him "No". Great.

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I might have gone off on a random salesman who came by my office to chat and tell me about the self-defense classes he teaches for women at his church, and how he’s adapted it so he can give these important lessons to women via Zoom now. I might have told him that one day I hoped one of his female students failed to pull back during a demonstration because women are tired of hearing mansplanations of how to protect ourselves and that perhaps if this salesman really wanted to help women he would start teaching a mandatory class for men called “How Not to Rape/Assault/Terrify Women” and “Accepting No For Answer.”

Maybe...and he might now be terrified of me. But he’s still not as scared as I am on a regular basis when I have to walk through a parking lot alone at night/get set up on a blind date/end a bad date. 

Edited by BlackberryJam · Reason: Typo
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47 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Like I said, sick, not stupid. Aside from knowing who to victimize, these guys know how to cultivate this "Mr. Terrific" image so that no one can imagine him capable of something so vile.

Case in point? Larry Nassar. He checked all of the boxes that society instinctively associates with goodness.

Married for over 20 years? Check.

Kids? Check.

Started a charity? Check.

House in the Midwestern suburbs? Check.

Devout in his religion? Check.

Enviable career? Check.

Ingratiating, ostensibly unthreatening demeanor? Check.*

Because it's no secret how horribly gymnasts are treated, Nassar basically weaponized niceness to gain their trust and get away with his vile crimes for decades.

36 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I might have gone off on a random salesman who came by my office to chat and tell me about the self-defense classes he teaches for women at his church, and how he’s adapted it so he can give these important lessons to women via Zoom now. I might have told him that one day I hoped one of his female students failed to pull back during a demonstration because women are tired of hearing mansplanations of how to protect ourselves and that perhaps if this salesman really wanted to help women he would start teaching a mandatory class for men called “How Not to Rape/Assault/Terrify Women” and “Accepting No For Answer.”

You know what I've discovered? The same men who proclaim that women should "stop whining, stand up for yourselves, don't put up with that crap!" are the same ones who have a ready supply of "bitches" or "nasty women" when a woman does actually stand up for herself. It's a classic no-win situation. Some men (including P.J. O'Rourke, who I usually like) have snarked that instead of #MeToo, women should just carry guns in their purses. Oh, really? So if a woman shot a guy attacking her, you honestly would be okay with that and wouldn't even think of whining about how "the feminazis are out to get us!"?

 

*Note: I'm not implying that anyone who fills the aforementioned criteria is bad or should be mistrusted, because that would be wrong. The same goes for people who check none of the boxes. I'm just saying that evil is not only banal, but truly more complicated and unexpected than we can ever realize. Such is life, unfortunately.

4 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

One of the things I dislike about Gavin DeBeck's book "The Gift Of Fear" (despite the good advice that it gives) is that there's an awful lot of victim-blaming. One of the things he chastises women for is "letting a guy down easy" instead of being blunt and direct, as if to suggest that it's women's fault that some persistent guy keeps pursuing them. How about blasting these guys for not taking "No" for an answer?

Tip for the day: The nicest, gentlest, wimpiest "no" ever uttered should be taken for an answer. End of discussion.

Edited by Wiendish Fitch
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12 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Tip for the day: The nicest, gentlest, wimpiest "no" ever uttered should be taken for an answer. End of discussion.

Exactly. As someone put it, "A soft "No" is still a "No". 

14 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Case in point? Larry Nassar. He checked all of the boxes that society instinctively associates with goodness.

Jerry Sandusky could check all of those boxes too. 

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2 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Here's my theory, feel free to dispute it:

Why do abused girls or women not speak up? Why don't they do anything?

Because, from a very young age, we dismiss and trivialize girls' discomfort and personal space.

The creepy uncle who tickles them too much? "Oh, stop screaming, have a sense of humor, he's just teasing, he does it because he loves you! He's from a different time, it would break his heart if he knew how you felt!"

The mean boy in class who harasses them on a daily basis? "Stop being an easy target! Just ignore him! Boys will be boys, he probably just likes you!"

The boss who hugs them a little too tight/long/often? "You need this job, so buck up. You didn't say or do anything to lead him on, did you? You know he's married, right?"

Girls (and women) are constantly told they're in the wrong. We're the ones who need to suck it up, tolerate it, ignore our own feelings, not to be a killjoy/snob/whiner/bad sport/whatever. If we say anything, we're lying snitches who just want attention/money/fame, even though, the majority of the time, we just want whatever's happening to stop. 

If you're told that you're wrong or mistaken often enough, you either ignore or fail to notice when you're absolutely right. 

This is so true. My family didn't expect me to accept boys harassing me in school, which I am grateful for. I remember talking about this with friends in college and being surprised what their families told them to tolerate. But my family was operating more out of this instinctive brawling hillbilly "Don't take shit off anyone!" than "It's not okay for boys to be mean to you because 'they like you,'" so I had sort of a faulty understanding of dealing with less overt versions of this. Pull my hair on the playground, and I'd kick you in the balls. Neg me repeatedly in class and at work, and I'd just take it and rationalize it and even strive for the guy's approval, even if it really did hurt my feelings. 

I was well into my twenties before I realized I didn't have to tolerate that either and for me to start calling it out. And I still get treated like I'm the asshole for it, but I'm okay with being the asshole now. 

 

Edited by Zella
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Forgive my dissent but while I most certainly heartily agree that an abusers should be asked why (and more importantly confronted and have justice meted for said abuses), I think  avoiding asking   victims of 'why didn't you leave' ultimately does the victims a disservice.

Why? Because ,whether the answer may be that the individual victim had zero resources and/or outside support systems OR whether it was due to the victim pinning everything on the abuser changing to become the person the victim wanted to believe they loved, this takes away the chance for the victims to consider how to improve their situations and learn from what has happened.One cannot learn from bad experiences  much less grow as a person if one refuses to believe one could have changed anything about what could have been done in retrospect.  Also, one should avoid the miasma of thinking there's no choice for a victim to be anything but a victim because not only does this ignore those who DID overcome sometimes incredible odds but it also ultimately dooms   current  victims (if not their supporters) into believing that they are doomed to be forever too weak and helpless to have anything change for the better which  seems completely defeatist, IMO. 

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26 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Forgive my dissent but while I most certainly heartily agree that an abusers should be asked why (and more importantly confronted and have justice meted for said abuses), I think  avoiding asking   victims of 'why didn't you leave' ultimately does the victims a disservice.

Why? Because ,whether the answer may be that the individual victim had zero resources and/or outside support systems OR whether it was due to the victim pinning everything on the abuser changing to become the person the victim wanted to believe they loved, this takes away the chance for the victims to consider how to improve their situations and learn from what has happened.One cannot learn from bad experiences  much less grow as a person if one refuses to believe one could have changed anything about what could have been done in retrospect.  Also, one should avoid the miasma of thinking there's no choice for a victim to be anything but a victim because not only does this ignore those who DID overcome sometimes incredible odds but it also ultimately dooms   current  victims (if not their supporters) into believing that they are doomed to be forever too weak and helpless to have anything change for the better which  seems completely defeatist, IMO. 

I think this shows some confusion about the question, “why didn’t you leave?” That question implies it’s somehow the victim’s fault for not leaving sooner, especially if asked in a press interview.

Those other issues are ones that should to be explored in a safe space, like counseling. 

 

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2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Abuse counselors will often advise women who are thinking of leaving to create an exit plan as planning often times results in the most successful exits:  To plan on the best time to leave that will maximize her ability to get away, stockpile money and create a go-bag, plan the route and transportation. etc. etc.  It can take months and months of planning. 

So suffice to say there is a whole stew of stuff that works against women just up and walking out the door. 

And all of this trouble is doubled (tripled?) if there are children involved. When my mom left, she had to worry about herself, us kids, AND passage out the country. (Yes, we had to leave the entire island. Being U.S. citizens helped.)

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59 minutes ago, Dani said:

 Even changing it to, “Why did you feel that you couldn’t leave?” would be an improvement. 

I agree even that simple wording change sounds massively less victim blaming. I think another option is to frame it as a more general question ("Why do women in abusive relationships feel they can't leave?"). Then, it's not so much as why you specifically didn't leave and why this is a very common experience for women in these toxic relationships. 

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4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I don't really know much about this story but in general it seems that someone leaving their abusive partner isn't always the instant fix to that problem. I mean there is a reason that abuse shelters work hard to make sure the people staying there can't be found. And in one of the most infamous cases of an abusive relationship Nicole Brown divorced OJ and he still killed her 2 years later.

Yep. Just watch any true crime show-"Dateline", "48 Hours", many of the shows on Investigation Discovery, you name it. You'll see plenty of examples of what often happens when a woman tries to leave an abusive situation. None of them are good.

Hell, I've seen stories where a woman does all the "right" things everyone tells her she's supposed to do. She leaves, she contacts the authorities*, she has people walk her to and from places for safety, she moves, she cuts off all contact with the guy, etc. 

And they've still been tracked down and threatened/harassed/murdered by the abuser. 

*There's also the fact that even when women do contact the authorities, much of the time, even if they want to help, their hands are tied, because, hey, a guy simply walking down the same street as you isn't a crime, they can't arrest him for that. Or they can tell the guy to stop calling, but that's about it. Or maybe he might be arrested for harassing her, but he'll likely only spend a night or a few days in jail and be out shortly thereafter. It often seems like the guy has to practically literally break in and threaten a woman's life before the cops can do anything, and usually by the time it gets to that point, it's far too late. 

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8 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Yep. Just watch any true crime show-"Dateline", "48 Hours", many of the shows on Investigation Discovery, you name it. You'll see plenty of examples of what often happens when a woman tries to leave an abusive situation. None of them are good.

Hell, I've seen stories where a woman does all the "right" things everyone tells her she's supposed to do. She leaves, she contacts the authorities*, she has people walk her to and from places for safety, she moves, she cuts off all contact with the guy, etc. 

And they've still been tracked down and threatened/harassed/murdered by the abuser. 

*There's also the fact that even when women do contact the authorities, much of the time, even if they want to help, their hands are tied, because, hey, a guy simply walking down the same street as you isn't a crime, they can't arrest him for that. Or they can tell the guy to stop calling, but that's about it. Or maybe he might be arrested for harassing her, but he'll likely only spend a night or a few days in jail and be out shortly thereafter. It often seems like the guy has to practically literally break in and threaten a woman's life before the cops can do anything, and usually by the time it gets to that point, it's far too late. 

Exactly. One of my favorite lines from a song is from the Dixie Chicks, “But Earl walked right through that restraining order and put her in intensive care.” Generally the best protection the police can provide is reactionary. 

 

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

In DV situations women often do the math re: staying vs. going and the most dangerous time is when they attempt leave. Leaving can literally be a death sentence.  As long as she is there he is appeased because she is still there under his control.  But when she leaves or attempts to leave, it can act as a trigger to the abuser to escalate violence even higher.   It is also exacerbated by the fact that one of the common ploys of the abuser is to either completely isolate the victim so that over time she has no support or network outside of him or alternatively he lays subtle groundwork that infers she is unstable.  So that if she does attempt to get some help, the people she outreaches to would of course alert him first because of her 'problems'.  

Even if women have a network or friends and family and money of her own, part of the pathology of abuse is to break her down so much that she feels complicit in her own abuse.  And as noted, abusers can be and often are charming and charismatic.  So much so that they turn that charm and charisma on their victim in a cycle of punishment and reward.  They are also incredibly manipulative and or course we know that gaslighting is a big gun i their arsenal so they often can seemlessly turn the tables and make themselves out to be the victim and convince the woman she is necessary to help him

Abuse counselors will often advise women who are thinking of leaving to create an exit plan as planning often times results in the most successful exits:  To plan on the best time to leave that will maximize her ability to get away, stockpile money and create a go-bag, plan the route and transportation. etc. etc.  It can take months and months of planning. 

So suffice to say there is a whole stew of stuff that works against women just up and walking out the door. 

So true. There’s a reason every domestic violence support site has an emergency exit button that immediately redirects to a neutral site. Even attempting to search out help could be deadly is caught. 

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31 minutes ago, Zella said:

I agree even that simple wording change sounds massively less victim blaming. I think another option is to frame it as a more general question ("Why do women in abusive relationships feel they can't leave?"). Then, it's not so much as why you specifically didn't leave and why this is a very common experience for women in these toxic relationships. 

Yes, and it's a question to be primarily asked of any of the myriad counselors, lawyers, and other advocates working to combat intimate partner abuse and support the victims of it along the way.  When an individual victim of such abuse tells her story, just let it play, and then provide the broader context based on research.

Often her story will include reflections on why she didn't leave when he did X, or leave for good before she did (most victims don't get away cleanly the first try; in fact the average is more like seven).  When it doesn't, and you wonder how anyone could be subjected to X, Y, and Z without heading for the hills, avail yourself of the wealth of information readily available as to the numerous intertwined reasons why and, in recounting her individual narrative, frame it within that horrifyingly common pattern.

If you do ask her about her specific timeline, do it after that knowledge gathering and in a way that acknowledges you understand his behavior was the cause  -- "Do you think [previously-described behavior by her abuser that is often cited as a reason for victims being afraid to leave] made you feel you couldn't leave?" 

It's not just semantics; it's the difference between attacking her actions (as if they were freely-made choices in a happy little normal bubble) and asking her how his abuse affected her perceptions and options (in this warped reality he'd dragged her into).

Edited by Bastet
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1 minute ago, Bastet said:

Yes, and it's a question to be primarily asked of any of the myriad counselors, lawyers, and other advocates working to combat intimate partner abuse and support the victims of it along the way.  When an individual victim of such abuse tells her story, just let it play, and then provide the broader context based on research.

Often her story will include reflections on why she didn't leave the first time, or leave for good before she did.  When it doesn't, and you wonder how anyone could be subjected to X, Y, and Z without heading for the hills, avail yourself of the wealth of information readily available as to the numerous intertwined reasons why and, in recounting her individual narrative, frame it within that horrifyingly common pattern.

If you do ask her about her specific timeline, do it after that knowledge gathering and in a way that acknowledges you understand his behavior was the cause  -- "Do you think [previously-described behavior by her abuser that is often cited as a reason for victims being afraid to leave] made you feel you couldn't leave?" 

It's not just semantics; it's the difference between attacking her actions (as if they were freely-made choices in a happy little normal bubble) and asking her how his abuse affected her perceptions and options (in this warped reality he'd dragged her into).

Yes, that totally makes sense, and I think a big part of why this question, when it is posed in interviews, is so roundly criticized--it does seem to come from a default place of attacking her actions rather than a genuine attempt to understand. 

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20 minutes ago, Dani said:

Exactly. One of my favorite lines from a song is from the Dixie Chicks, “But Earl walked right through that restraining order and put her in intensive care.” Generally the best protection the police can provide is reactionary. 

Mmhm. There's got to be another solution besides restraining orders, because it seems every time I hear about someone putting one out, they never work. The guy either won't follow them, because if criminals gave a damn about laws, they wouldn't be, y'know, criminals, or they do follow them, and they know just how to make sure they're following the order and keeping their distance while still managing to make the victim's life a living hell. 

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I remember a tv movie about a real life domestic violence case.  The ex-wife had a restraining order that her abusive ex-husband kept violating.  He’d show up and just stand on her lawn.  She would call the police each time but the attitude from the cops was annoyance at her for calling them rather than concern that the ex-husband kept violating the restraining order.  One day he does more than stand on the lawn and viciously stabs her.  She called the cops as soon as she saw him but since the police felt her calls were always overreactions they made a choice not to hurry.  I think they stopped on the way to her house to have a break.  Even when the cops arrived they weren’t helpful and mostly stood there stunned as the ex stabbed and stomped on her.  Those times her ex stood on the lawn were probably test runs and when he saw how little the police took her seriously he went after her.  She survived but was disabled due to her injuries.  She sued the police and won.  A restraining order doesn’t stop a knife or a gun but strict enforcement of the order where violators suffer serious consequences might save a life. 

There was a case of a college student who broke up with a guy who kept harassing  her.  He even tried blackmailing her claiming he had nude photos of her.  She did everything she could to protect herself.  She reported him to the campus security and to the local police.  Even her parents called authorities.  They were not helpful beyond one time walking her to car one night when she and her mother begged them.  They didn’t share photos of him to make campus security aware of a guy who was pretending to be a student and threatening someone.  They didn’t research his name to find out if he had a prior history. They didn’t provide extra security for the dorms.  Turns out if the police had simply done a search of the guys name they would have found out he was violating his parole.  The blackmail was something they could have used to put him away but they did noting in response to her calls.  Sadly he showed up on campus one day and shot her and the university response to her murder was to give a medal to the security guard who walked her to her car once. Her parents sued the university and won.

Leaving these relationships is not easy.  It does not help when women who try to get help are not taken seriously or provided with tools that will keep them safe.  The question isn’t “why didn’t you leave” it’s “how did he force you to stay” in my opinion.   

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9 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

I remember a tv movie about a real life domestic violence case.  The ex-wife had a restraining order that her abusive ex-husband kept violating.  He’d show up and just stand on her lawn.  She would call the police each time but the attitude from the cops was annoyance at her for calling them rather than concern that the ex-husband kept violating the restraining order.  One day he does more than stand on the lawn and viciously stabs her.  She called the cops as soon as she saw him but since the police felt her calls were always overreactions they made a choice not to hurry.  I think they stopped on the way to her house to have a break.  Even when the cops arrived they weren’t helpful and mostly stood there stunned as the ex stabbed and stomped on her.  Those times her ex stood on the lawn were probably test runs and when he saw how little the police took her seriously he went after her.  She survived but was disabled due to her injuries.  She sued the police and won.  A restraining order doesn’t stop a knife or a gun but strict enforcement of the order where violators suffer serious consequences might save a life. 

There was a case of a college student who broke up with a guy who kept harassing  her.  He even tried blackmailing her claiming he had nude photos of her.  She did everything she could to protect herself.  She reported him to the campus security and to the local police.  Even her parents called authorities.  They were not helpful beyond one time walking her to car one night when she and her mother begged them.  They didn’t share photos of him to make campus security aware of a guy who was pretending to be a student and threatening someone.  They didn’t research his name to find out if he had a prior history. They didn’t provide extra security for the dorms.  Turns out if the police had simply done a search of the guys name they would have found out he was violating his parole.  The blackmail was something they could have used to put him away but they did noting in response to her calls.  Sadly he showed up on campus one day and shot her and the university response to her murder was to give a medal to the security guard who walked her to her car once. Her parents sued the university and won.

Leaving these relationships is not easy.  It does not help when women who try to get help are not taken seriously or provided with tools that will keep them safe.  The question isn’t “why didn’t you leave” it’s “how did he force you to stay” in my opinion.   

Pretty sure that first example is Tracy Thurman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurman_v._City_of_Torrington

 

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26 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Leaving these relationships is not easy.  It does not help when women who try to get help are not taken seriously or provided with tools that will keep them safe.  The question isn’t “why didn’t you leave” it’s “how did he force you to stay” in my opinion

And these are situations where the guy was already acting like a psycho. Can you imagine if the guy was acting perfectly normally? I'm a crime channel junkie myself and it's stunned me how many women have been murdered by exes who WEREN'T explicitly abusive. 

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1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

Those times her ex stood on the lawn were probably test runs and when he saw how little the police took her seriously he went after her. 

This is an excellent point. I definitely agree that's part of the plan for a lot of these people.

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There was a case of a college student who broke up with a guy who kept harassing  her.  He even tried blackmailing her claiming he had nude photos of her.  She did everything she could to protect herself.  She reported him to the campus security and to the local police.  Even her parents called authorities.  They were not helpful beyond one time walking her to car one night when she and her mother begged them.  They didn’t share photos of him to make campus security aware of a guy who was pretending to be a student and threatening someone.  They didn’t research his name to find out if he had a prior history. They didn’t provide extra security for the dorms.  Turns out if the police had simply done a search of the guys name they would have found out he was violating his parole.  The blackmail was something they could have used to put him away but they did noting in response to her calls.  Sadly he showed up on campus one day and shot her and the university response to her murder was to give a medal to the security guard who walked her to her car once. Her parents sued the university and won.

If this is the story I'm thinking of, I remember hearing it on "Dateline" a couple years back. I remember yelling at the TV a lot as they discussed just how badly all involved dropped the ball in trying to protect her. 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Pretty sure that first example is Tracy Thurman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurman_v._City_of_Torrington

Holy shit, that story. How the fuck does an officer just sit there while a woman is being beaten and stabbed? And then even when he does finally quit twiddling his thumbs and intervenes, he still doesn't arrest the guy. Incredible. And then the guy only serves about eight years. Gee, let's not be TOO hard on this guy now!

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In November 1982, Buck forcibly entered the home Tracey was staying at and removed Charles Jr.[2] Charles Jr. was returned to his mother, but the police refused to accept a complaint of criminal trespass from the homeowner.

You would think this would've been a blaring red warning sign for the cops as well. 

Thank god she sued and won. I would've, too. That's insane

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1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

And these are situations where the guy was already acting like a psycho. Can you imagine if the guy was acting perfectly normally? I'm a crime channel junkie myself and it's stunned me how many women have been murdered by exes who WEREN'T explicitly abusive. 

In the case of the college student, her ex had never been violent towards her during their relationship.  There was one red flag where her friends complained that he was constantly calling her, trying to check on her, asking her to send him pictures of her location to prove where she was.  So he was controlling in a way that indicated things could turn bad but he never hit her.  One day his id fell on the floor and she saw he’d been lying about his name and age.  So she breaks up with him and then the harassment and blackmail starts.  The frustrating  thing is if just one authority had looked up the name she gave them they could have seen his criminal history.  Even if he had no criminal history the fraud over his fake identity and black mail over the nude photo were crimes that zero was done to investigate.  She and her parents spent weeks calling over and over and not one investigator did even the minimum of a search of the man’s name.  People complain about victims not speaking up but even when they do they don’t always get the help they need.  Sometimes they are treated as a nuisance to deal with instead of a person who needs help.  This is true in cases of sexual harassment as well as domestic violence.  Victims can be treated horribly and get victimized by the people who were supposed to be helping them.

Sometimes there are red flags and sometimes the violence happens unexpectedly without any prior history.  Look at Laci Peterson.  It’s a scary world.

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28 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Let's get back on topic (which is discussing celebrities), please.

Okay back on topic.

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1 hour ago, Trini said:

I think D'Elia has come up in this topic before: 'Chris D’Elia Issues Confessional Video On His Prior Conduct: “I Know It Looks Bad”'

I haven't watched the video but the article has some quotes.

Someone wants to start touring now that comedy clubs might be opening up in the next few months. Of course a lot of his fans never had an issue with any of the allegations.

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I’m watching the first part of Allen vs. Farrow and it is so much more disturbing that I expected. I had this impression that the abuse claim was from a single instance after his relationship with Soon-Yi was exposed but it was so much more than that. The evidence of grooming Dylan was there for years. Listening to Dylan talk about him teaching her how the suck his thumb is going to stick with me for a long time. 

It makes me so angry that this whole story was turned to be about Mia. A high profile psychologist who lived in the same building as Farrow saw an issue with how Allen greeted Dylan. A  clinical psychologist said that Allen was “inappropriately intense” with Dylan. That Allen was able to successfully frame this as a women scorned is insane. 

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12 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

but he never hit her.

So many people think that is the only kind of domestic violence.   Well ... he never used FORCE on me.   

 

7 hours ago, Dani said:

A high profile psychologist who lived in the same building as Farrow saw an issue with how Allen greeted Dylan. A  clinical psychologist said that Allen was “inappropriately intense” with Dylan. 

Well he never molested Dylan right in front of them, so what do they know RIGHT?   The battle lines on this one were drawn long ago.   The people who believe Allen will jump on every little nitpick to prove the story is not true.   the people who believe Dylan will be disgusted nothing ever happened to Allen.   Very few people's minds will be changed.

Jen Chaney did a review of Farrow v. Allen in it she discusses some of the problems with the original investigation that this documentary goes over.   https://www.vulture.com/article/allen-v-farrow-review-hbo-docuseries.html

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On 2/20/2021 at 3:05 PM, Dani said:

I assume you mean she stood behind him symbolically because Mia has never spoken about her brothers crimes and doesn’t have a relationship with him that I can find. She did however defend Polanski. 

I don’t think anyone views Mia has a saint. Most situations are not black and white. Woody can be a sexual predator who abused Dylan and Mia can be a shitty human being.

Truth. 

My biggest hesitation in ever commenting on this situation has always been a very strong sense that Mia is unstable, and probably a real piece of work/hard to be around. 

But thinking this has always been simultaneous with reading mounting evidence over the years that confirmed the worst of Allen, built on top of an impression from way back when he hooked up with Soon-Yi that he was disgusting. 

Both things can be true at once. 

Heck, it's even true that some of Woody's films still resonate with me (although admittedly it's been over a decade since I tried to watch any of them), while with others you can SEE his sick attitudes laced into the stories. Every incarnation of Allen that hooks up with a much younger woman in a film becomes like an illustration/justification of his sickness. Every neurotic rambling echoes now like an excuse for something or other. 

But... Radio Days is still a great film. That's the one I've held onto longest, while even Annie Hall turns my stomach now. 

And yeah... Polanski. The mere fact that Mia never really spoke against him dims her part of the story considerably. But it doesn't erase what the KIDS have said, or what Woody himself has said and done. 

Even down to the notion that a "nutty" Mia turned the kids against Woody... I think it's overly simplistic to either dismiss or accept the notion. It can simultaneously be perfectly true that she did, but that at the same time Woody did EXACTLY what he's accused of. Again, BOTH things can be true. 

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