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Drogo

Hollywood's Dirty Little (Open) Secrets: Harvey Weinstein and Others Like Him

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13 minutes ago, Drogo said:

She doesn't defend them against the allegations or defend them as people - she's sad that people want to pretend their talent wasn't real.  I get that.

Kevin Spacey was a terrific actor, Harvey Weinstein produced some of the most iconic films of all time, Michael Jackson was probably the greatest entertainer of all time and OJ Simpson was an incredible football player.

They're all shit humans, but the talent was real.

They were talented. I give you that. What sucks is whatever they did, it is forever on their record. Trust me, it is like something you knew, but don't want to know. Like that Pooh voice actor, remember?

Edited by Robert Lynch
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2 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

They were talented. I give you that. What sucks is whatever they did, it is forever on their record. Trust me, it is like something you knew, but don't want to know. Like that Pooh voice actor, remember?

Totally, but that's what DJD is saying, too- the talent is and should be viewed as separate from its possessor and their sins.   

“You cannot deny somebody a talent. You might as well never look at a Caravaggio painting [he was a murderer]. You might as well never have gone to see Noël Coward [accused of predatory behaviour].”

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31 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

I have no words to say about that. Considering she grew up in a male-dominated society, you think she would show compassion at least. Come on, Judi. It's not 1967, anymore.

I get what she's saying. However; both Carravagio and Noel Coward are DEAD. Hence, one can look at their respective paintings and plays without the slightest worry about any of one's incomes going to fund any reprehensible activities. Messrs. Spacey and Weinstein are still breathing so, if one keeps patronizing them, one DOES chance one's funds going to the above-mentioned reprehensible activities. Hence, sorry, Miss Dench but as long as they have pulses, I'm NOT going to be patronizing them despite your pleas! 

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6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Same here. They always end up being ones with a lot of skeletons in the closet.

It's very, very sad and very, very true. 😭

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47 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Spacey and Weinstein are still breathing so, if one keeps patronizing them, one DOES chance one's funds going to the above-mentioned reprehensible activities.

One can't keep patronizing those who no longer make films to patronize.  I can watch Se7en every time it's on and Kevin Spacey will still be a twisty fuck with $100M in the bank and a whole world that hates him and is probably going to prison.   

A lot of people worked on that film who weren't Kevin Spacey.

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Think of how many people with talent are having their careers destroyed by rapists and other harrassers, thus depriving not only them but also us of the product of their talents. We don't need to support criminals in order to support talent.

It's a matter of priorities.

Edited by possibilities
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32 minutes ago, Drogo said:

A lot of people worked on that film who weren't Kevin Spacey.

This is what bothered me about the backlash against Bill Cosby as one example.  What he did was horrible, no question, but did that change the quality of the shows he was involved in?  And more importantly why should the co-stars, writers etc suffer loss of income and reputation because they were involved in his shows?  Watch Cosby, don't watch Cosby, your choice but to say (and I have heard this said often) that no one should be watching his shows ever is going too far,

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That’s something I’ve struggled with.  There are some artists I flat-out haven’t been able to look at anymore (Spacey, Cosby) because seeing them makes me think of their victims.  But there are some others movies and things that I still love, particularly for other people in them, and it’s harder for me with producers/some directors.  I recently decided to keep a record of problematic media I consume (for predators, and other reasons too, like cis actors playing trans characters) to make donations to relevant organizations (ex:  RAINN for predators.)  $10 donation if my watching actively contributes to their wealth (ex:  movie theater, streaming,) $5 if it doesn’t (ex:  rewatching something I bought years ago.)

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She was talking about it being a tragedy that his work was cut out of a movie. That is not a tragedy. 

I haven't been interested in watching anything of his for a while. I saw that one movie Baby Driver, which wasn't very good. I don't watch The Cosby Show, and I used to love him. 

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It was a movie in the process of being made, not some Turner Classics film that they went back and CGIed him out of years after the fact. And as for talent, I wouldn't regard Christopher Plummer as a step down from Spacey.

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2 minutes ago, Anela said:

She was talking about it being a tragedy that his work was cut out of a movie. That is not a tragedy. 

And I know this isn’t the real issue but  Spacey hasn’t given a decent nonhammy performance in years and based on the trailers that were released before he was cut out All The Money was going to be no exception.

1 minute ago, Bruinsfan said:

It was a movie in the process of being made, not some Turner Classics film that they went back and CGIed him out of years after the fact. And as for talent, I wouldn't regard Christopher Plummer as a step down from Spacey.

If was already completed and had been screened and they did go back and CG him out.

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15 minutes ago, Anela said:

She was talking about it being a tragedy that his work was cut out of a movie. That is not a tragedy. 

She was talking about their bodies of work.

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12 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

It was a movie in the process of being made, not some Turner Classics film that they went back and CGIed him out of years after the fact. And as for talent, I wouldn't regard Christopher Plummer as a step down from Spacey.

Christopher Plummer was a better choice as J. Paul Getty, anyway. Better actor, and right age to boot.

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6 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Christopher Plummer was a better choice as J. Paul Getty, anyway. Better actor, and right age to boot.

Plummer even received an Academy Award nomination for his performance. All things considered, it’s doubtful Spacey would’ve received 1 if his performance had been left in the movie.

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Y

12 minutes ago, Drogo said:

She was talking about their bodies of work.

In the article it links to several other comments she has made about Spacey including specifically him being cut out of All of the Money as not being warranted.

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15 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

In the article it links to several other comments she has made about Spacey including specifically him being cut out of All of the Money as not being warranted.

Yes, but not limited to ATMITW as the post I quoted suggests. 

Point being: I don't disagree with the decision to cut his parts out of a movie that hadn't been released yet and would surely flop for reasons described above, but I do disagree with the idea that all Spacey/Weinstein films should be locked in a vault somewhere, never to be seen/discussed/appreciated again, when they're some of the best films in recent history.  

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Dench's statements are just another indication of how far some actors are up their own asses about the importance of their "craft."

Nothing about acting or entertainment rises to the level of tragedy, imo, including having one's work erased or besmirched.

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I enjoyed Baby Driver as a guilty pleasure movie but I will say watching Spacey drool over the young male lead ruined that movie for me..and practically anything else he was in.

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7 hours ago, Drogo said:

She doesn't defend them against the allegations or defend them as people - she's sad that people want to pretend their talent wasn't real.  I get that.

I get that is what she is saying, and okay, fair, but really, they're just movies. I know she is an actress so she probably thinks what they do is far more important than it is, but they just make believe for a living, and in doing that, they have ruined people's lives. 

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3 hours ago, angora said:

That’s something I’ve struggled with.  There are some artists I flat-out haven’t been able to look at anymore (Spacey, Cosby) because seeing them makes me think of their victims.  But there are some others movies and things that I still love, particularly for other people in them, and it’s harder for me with producers/some directors.  I recently decided to keep a record of problematic media I consume (for predators, and other reasons too, like cis actors playing trans characters) to make donations to relevant organizations (ex:  RAINN for predators.)  $10 donation if my watching actively contributes to their wealth (ex:  movie theater, streaming,) $5 if it doesn’t (ex:  rewatching something I bought years ago.)

Wow, that's a beautiful way to handle it. Kudos to you.

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2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Wow, that's a beautiful way to handle it. Kudos to you.

I can't take all the credit for it.  I actually got the idea from a Pete Davidson bit on SNL.  He proposed donating $1, and I just decided to up to $5-$10, because I wanted it to make me think more about whether it was really "worth" watching/consuming.

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8 hours ago, angora said:

I recently decided to keep a record of problematic media I consume (for predators, and other reasons too, like cis actors playing trans characters) 

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread, but why is a cis actor playing a trans character a problem? Isn't the whole point of acting to portray someone you're not?

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3 hours ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

I wish he would too. But he's a narcissist (imo), so he'll never do so.

I know - unfortunately. He and OJ are cut from the same cloth.

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4 minutes ago, GaT said:

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread, but why is a cis actor playing a trans character a problem? Isn't the whole point of acting to portray someone you're not?

Because trans actors don’t get those jobs and also don’t get jobs where they aren’t playing trans people. 

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3 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Because trans actors don’t get those jobs and also don’t get jobs where they aren’t playing trans people. 

I realize there is nothing I can say that isn't going cause a huge discussion & derail the thread, so I'll just say thanks for the response & end it here. 🙂

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17 hours ago, DearEvette said:

No I don't believe the works of these persons should be hidden away somewhere, but I do think it is hard for their work not to be tainted by some of these revelations by some people.  And their inability to separate the art from the artist is understandable and should not be admonished or questioned. 

Yeah, I've had a hard time myself separating certain people from their art. Like for instance I can't even look at Bill Cosby's face. He was such a big part of my childhood and teen years. I had one of those I Spy books and some comedy albums and I got rid of them and I'll never be able to watch The Cosby Show again. OTOH, Chinatown is one of my favorite movies and I will not get rid of my copy. I still listen to Michael Jackson songs when they come on. I think where I personally will draw the line is not to purchase anything new from any of these problematic people. It's not up to me to judge how people react, it's a very personal thing but I don't think their work should be hidden. There are many beautiful things in this world that were made by horrible people.

As far as Kevin Spacey, it helps that I've never liked that dude, I always got a bad vibe from him. One of the times my radar about someone was right. I started giving Cosby the side eye in the 90s also and I hadn't heard anything about the rape allegations. Let's just say that it didn't shock me at all.

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3 hours ago, festivus said:

I think where I personally will draw the line is not to purchase anything new from any of these problematic people. It's not up to me to judge how people react, it's a very personal thing but I don't think their work should be hidden. There are many beautiful things in this world that were made by horrible people.

I think that's the big reason why people want to go the drastic route of not letting a celebrity's movies/shows/music be available anymore once they commit a heinous crime. Cosby fortunately went to jail, but we've seen how many celebrities have walked away from jail sentences (or gotten significantly lighter ones than non-famous people in their position would've received), and it's frustrating to see them not being properly held to account. So people figure if they're not going to be punished the way they're supposed to be, the next best thing is to hit not just the celebrity, but Hollywood as a whole, where they'll really feel the effects: their wallets. If they lose all that money they poured into this celebrity and their work, that'll be something, at least. 

Plus, while it's true that there's lots of beautiful art created by awful people, if you're the victim of one of those celebrities, or if the crime involves rape or abusing children or something that awful, the whole "Separate the art from the artist" thing can perhaps feel like people are saying that keeping that art around is more important than the person's suffering and pain. So I can understand some thinking, "Okay, but I don't really care about their 'beautiful art'." as a result. 

Maybe if more celebrities who committed awful crimes actually did the right kind of time for them, though, the whole "separate the art from the artist" thing would be a little easier for some people to do. 

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I think it depends if the person is a huge part of a project to me too.    When the video, and complaints about Weatherly came out, I was disgusted by them.    I never watched Bull, but I used to watch NCIS reruns, and after the news came out, I can't even look at the reruns.    His comments on NCIS may be scripted, but they are repulsive to me anyway. 

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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6 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think it depends if the person is a huge part of a project to me too.    When the video, and complaints about Weatherly came out, I was disgusted by them.    I never watched Bull, and I used to watch NCIS reruns, and after the news came out, I can't even look at the reruns.    His comments on NCIS may be scripted, but they are repulsive to me anyway. 

That, too, definitely. If it's someone who works behind the scenes who's been accused of a crime, and especially if they're not a well-known director/writer/producer, it can be a little easier to still enjoy the work itself, 'cause you're not seeing them.

But yeah, if they're on the screen and a regular presence, it can get awkward really fast. 

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2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Maybe if more celebrities who committed awful crimes actually did the right kind of time for them, though, the whole "separate the art from the artist" thing would be a little easier for some people to do. 

I agree. I've also been thinking about this some more and I think sometimes it's easier to separate art from the artist if they're dead. That's bad, but I think it's valid in a person making a decision to still watch or listen to that persons art.

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6 minutes ago, festivus said:

I agree. I've also been thinking about this some more and I think sometimes it's easier to separate art from the artist if they're dead. That's bad, but I think it's valid in a person making a decision to still watch or listen to that persons art.

Yep. You know they'll never be able to hurt anyone again, and if anyone does benefit from their art at that point, it's likely their family, who, provided they weren't involved with the criminal activity in some way, are totally innocent (and there may be some family members out there who've distanced themselves from the celebrity in question, and will take the money from the show/book/movie to benefit people and organizations that help those who've been abused/raped). So that makes it a little easier as a result. 

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Inside Edition got its hands on the audio of New York Times' reporters, Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey (no Ronan Farrow to use as a straw man and deflect) confronting Weinstein about their upcoming article about his monstrous behavior. Weinstein responds with his usual threats.

https://deadline.com/2019/06/harvey-weinstein-audio-from-new-york-times-interview-shows-angst-before-storm-im-not-the-sinner-you-think-i-am-1202638495/

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I think it's tragic that someone who has talent, and becomes successful doesn't appreciate their good fortune, and instead uses it to hurt other people.  Unfortunately, that seems to be the norm rather than the unusual.

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12 hours ago, kathyk2 said:

Disabled actors face the same problem as well. They are also criticized when they speak up.

Reason #36 why I love Speechless and hate that the show got cancelled. 

Except the cast and crew of Speechless are lucky. Unlike Constance Wu, whose show got renewed, they can go forth and do all of the movie projects their little hearts desire. Sorry, I'm tired and cranky today. 

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Actors never advocate separating the art from the artist when it comes to critical praise, box office success, or awards but damn, let one of them get accused of rape and all of a sudden...

Edited by slf · Reason: espouse? lmao
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I've been reading all the comments and trying to figure out where I come down on whether we should be able to separate the art from the artist or if still liking the stuff created by someone who molested/abused someone it is right or wrong. I really don't know.

On one hand I do agree that personally liking the music or movies doesn't mean your validating the abuse and horrible crap the creature did. Some of my favorite movies were done by Weinstein which sickens me. I loved the Cosby show growing up. One of my favorite things to watch every year was the 96 Olympic Women's Team Gymnastics competition on Youtube it was a great moment, awesome competition and the first ever USA won the gold team medal and I still remember every feeling I had when I watched it back 96. I watched every four years cheering them on. Its been hard to watch since it came out about Nassar, he is right there at the competition as their doctor. Its hard not throw up thinking about all the victims still to come. Is it wrong to still love their music and movies? I really don't know.

I read the point that if we threw out everything that murderer, rapist, etc. had created we'd have not much less. Which is true but also depressing and disturbing. Are there really that many artists, authors and etc. that molested, abused, or murdered anyone that there would be much left? If so that's not a good thing. 

Annber03 had a saying you love their art can come off like you love their work and don't care about the victims or what the person did. Which isn't always true. But for me that's where the problem lies.

You can love Michael Jackson's music and still think he's horrible bastard who molested boys and destroyed lives. Although it can be hard to hear especially given like how fanatical the cult of Michael Jackson is and how many do refused to believe that he molested anyone. No matter what the evidence is. Michael Jackson was able to get away with molesting boys because of who he was. Because of his talent, his fame, his money, his celebrity it couldn't be true. And he was able to get away with it. People did know but either weren't believed because those reasons or didn't care because making money was so more important then boys who were being molested. Weinstein was able to get away with it because of his power, money, celebrity and movies he made. While he assaulted, molested, and raped who ever he wanted. He destroyed careers and lives. He was able to get NY district attorney to drop cases and police to drop complaints. He hired someone to befriend McGowan and pretend to be a reporter.

Girl gymnasts over the years did speak up about Nassar and nothing ever happened. They told Coaches and parents who either ignored, talked to Nassar and was convinced they were lying or did go to the police who did nothing or talked to Nassar and did nothing. The higher ups did know but didn't care. The same girls winning gold medals, Olympics and other competitions, in USA Gymnastics built their careers on were being molested by the team doctor who also was going with them to the Olympics. He was at Atlanta, Sydney, Beijing, London where he was free to keep abusing.  He destroyed countless lives but was kept on the job. Why? What was so great about him that they couldn't find another doctor.

Its not just these three of course. There's so many cases not just in music and movies where molesting, rape or abuse people and are allowed to get away with it because of their talent, skill, fame, celebrity, and money.  Why is okay to let them get away with abusing and destroying lives because of their talent, skill, fame, celebrity and money?  That really needs to stop being an excuse to cover up horrible behavior and crimes. They need to be held accountable and so do those who protect them. It really shouldn't be that hard to find good talent/skills etc. who isn't abusing or molesting anyone.

Its not loving Michael Jackson's music that is the problem its Michael Jackson molesting boys, its people who knew, covered it up and those fans that still deny it, just like its not Weinstein's movies that are the problem he is, the power he had, the people who knew and covered for him, the police who got complaints and dropped them, and the DA's office who dropped cases. They abused people, and destroyed lives. That's where "separate the art from the artist" can be heard as not caring about the people they abused because that talent and skills as an artist what allowed them to keep abusing people and getting away with it. That's what I worry about. Not loving their music, movies or shows but denying victims or dismissing their crimes because of their talent or loving them and their stuff to the point of denying they ever abused anyone. 

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4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He was at Atlanta, Sydney, Beijing, London where he was free to keep abusing.  He destroyed countless lives but was kept on the job. Why? What was so great about him that they couldn't find another doctor.

Because TPTB knew he would go quietly.   They couldn't just dismiss him.   He would have talked.   or someone would have talked about why he was dismissed.    Then no one would want their kids to be gymnasts if they thought they would be molested by the doctor.   Then there goes the gold medals.    There would also be questions -- as we saw -- about who knew what and when.    THOSE people could lose their jobs.   As did happen when it came out.    So a whole bunch of self-interest protected him.

The parents didn't believe because they would feel guilty for sending their kids to the program.   Or they believed TPTB wouldn't allow such a thing to be happening.   Or they didn't care, gold medals were all that mattered.

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Nassar's victims at Michigan State also reported him, and nothing was done until the other investigations started.   One coach at MSU was finally fired, because she still supported him, and wanted the gymnasts to send him a "thinking of you" card they all signed.    

The saddest story to me is the one where one of Nassar's victims told their father, who didn't believe them.   The child was six when Nassar first molested her, and was a friend of the family.   When the father heard all of the other victims coming forward, he knew his daughter was telling the truth, and the father committed suicide.   

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3 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

The saddest story to me is the one where one of Nassar's victims told their father, who didn't believe them.   The child was six when Nassar first molested her, and was a friend of the family.   When the father heard all of the other victims coming forward, he knew his daughter was telling the truth, and the father committed suicide.   

That story isn't sad, it's anger inducing. Kyle Stephens was the gymnast, & I hope her father is burning in hell. He didn't believe her, & then when he found out she was telling the truth, instead of being a man & dealing with the consequences, he killed himself & left her to deal with it. He is just as big a piece of shit as Nassar is. He abused his daughter too, just in a different way.

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9 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Because TPTB knew he would go quietly.   They couldn't just dismiss him.   He would have talked.   or someone would have talked about why he was dismissed.    Then no one would want their kids to be gymnasts if they thought they would be molested by the doctor.   Then there goes the gold medals.    There would also be questions -- as we saw -- about who knew what and when.    THOSE people could lose their jobs.   As did happen when it came out.    So a whole bunch of self-interest protected him.

The parents didn't believe because they would feel guilty for sending their kids to the program.   Or they believed TPTB wouldn't allow such a thing to be happening.   Or they didn't care, gold medals were all that mattered.

That's exactly it. They were all so busy carrying only about the gold medals not to mention the money, praise and shit from it and so busy saving their own asses to give a crap about the girls being abused. When it all started to come out of course they all denied they knew anything about it which of course no one believed with the different girls pointing out that they did know. USA Gymnastics knew and MSU knew and did nothing. Police departments knew they got complaints and did nothing, DAs' knew because on the rare chance it got to them they did nothing, They all need to be held accountable. Arrested, charged and convicted. 

3 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Nassar's victims at Michigan State also reported him, and nothing was done until the other investigations started.   One coach at MSU was finally fired, because she still supported him, and wanted the gymnasts to send him a "thinking of you" card they all signed.    

The saddest story to me is the one where one of Nassar's victims told their father, who didn't believe them.   The child was six when Nassar first molested her, and was a friend of the family.   When the father heard all of the other victims coming forward, he knew his daughter was telling the truth, and the father committed suicide.   

That coach was Kathy Klagas? Or was it another coach. Kathy was a coach at MSU and had gotten complaints which she did nothing with. She told one girl that there was no need to bring up Nassar's conduct and another victim that making a complaint could have serious consequences for Nassar and the victim. She "retired" after it came to light in 2017 still insists she did nothing wrong, he did nothing wrong and she trusted him. Really? So much even after you've been told by different women he molested them? Bullshit.

29 minutes ago, GaT said:

That story isn't sad, it's anger inducing. Kyle Stephens was the gymnast, & I hope her father is burning in hell. He didn't believe her, & then when he found out she was telling the truth, instead of being a man & dealing with the consequences, he killed himself & left her to deal with it. He is just as big a piece of shit as Nassar is. He abused his daughter too, just in a different way.

I agree for the same reasons. He's a piece of shit for not believing his daughter and killing himself when he learned she had be telling the truth. He took the easy way out.  Not accepting any of the consequences, not apologizing to his daughter, to finally be there for his daughter, help her, and left his daughter to deal with the abuse and his suicide. Way to make things easier for yourself and harder for your daughter. I really hope Kyle realizes what piece of shit he is and doesn't blame herself for the suicide. It wasn't you. It was him. You deserved better. They all deserved better. No one deserves that.

Edited by andromeda331
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Kyle Stephens' father killed himself when he became seriously ill, not when he realized the truth. I'm not saying the guilt of not believing Kyle didn't contribute to his suicide, but it's not so cut-and-dried. I listened to a podcast Kyle did, and apparently she and her father had somewhat reconciled before his death, after having been understandably estranged for years. She talked about how much she appreciated that, in the end, he would accept her expressing her anger towards him without making excuses or defending his actions.

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