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SilverStormm

S02.E08: The Luxury of Conscience

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Peel has really grown on me. When he was first introduced last season, I didn't expect to like him, but I was saddened to see him exit. Like not Lord M saddened, but I will miss him. 

2 hours ago, babs j. said:

A number of years ago I read that the prudery we associate with the Victorian era was due more to Albert than Victoria.  The courts of George IV and William IV were rather wild places.  Also, Victoria did not believe that there were such things as female homosexuals so, while male homosexuality could result in imprisonment or death, women were free of possible punishment. 

Interesting enough, her views on women and homosexuality were not new. I took a fascinating class on medieval literature and women a few years ago, and I remember reading some pretty bizarre things from that time period concerning women and sexuality. Basically, they didn't think women could have sex with each other since they were missing a certain appendage. 

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6 minutes ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

Some of the instruments on display are horrifying.

When I look at some of the instruments they used in days gone by I thought that Drs were an instrument of torture. 

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3 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I think Albert really resents that he is Prince to Victoria's Queen.  I understand that this is fictionalized, but he really insulted her in this episode when he critiqued her as spoiled, never having been told no, etc.

Wow, mileage certainly does vary because I don't think that Albert insulted Victoria.  He was trying to make a point, and I chalked up his choice of the word "spoiled" as one that a man whose first language was not English would probably land on, especially during the heat of an argument.  He was trying to get Victoria to see what Lehzen was doing, and I think "spoiled" came out in the frustration of the exchange.  Lehzen tried to pull something similar with the Scotland trip.  She just assumed that she would get to hear the bagpipes because of course Victoria would bring her on the trip.  Victoria said no because of the children, but I don't think she was aware of what Lehzen was doing.

In fact, I believe that Albert thinks his wife is quite intelligent.  I think it frustrates him when she doesn't seem to "read the room" so to speak because I think he believes she can.  On the flip side of that, we saw him in a similar place to where I think he sometimes believes Victoria is.  He was unable to "read the room" about the Corn Laws, so I think that gave him a taste of what Victoria deals with sometimes as monarch.

I don't think he resents Victoria at all, nor do I think he wants to be King.  I do think he wants those around him to take maximum advantage of every opportunity in life..  He's that way with Victoria, he was that way with Peele, and he's been that way about bringing progress to England.

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14 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

Why so few episodes? I’ve moved things and changed my schedule to view this series and now there’s only one left?Where am I going to get my costuming and horse porn? As Lehzen left in the carriage did anyone else note the beautiful long fetlock hair on the carriage horse? 

Oh yes! And the white horse Albert rode last week was gorgeous too.

5 hours ago, Driad said:

I read somewhere that before about 1910, a doctor was more likely to harm you than help you.

One example is that George Washington was bled to death by a “doctor.”

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5 hours ago, magdalene said:

I can buy that Miss Coke would have sympathy for Lord Alfred but not that old battle ax played by Diana Rigg, she hasn't exactly been portrayed as a fountain of tolerance.

I like that the sympathy and sensitivity came from her. For one thing, at her great age, she has seen so many people carried away before their time that she could tackle this current calamity pragmatically and not emotionally.  Second, I think that as a stern old Duchess, she has the power to think as independently as she pleases without giving a toss about what everyone else thinks of homosexual persons.

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8 hours ago, souliersnoirs said:

I think that as a stern old Duchess, she has the power to think as independently as she pleases without giving a toss about what everyone else thinks of homosexual persons.

I still think that's putting a 21st century spin on it. With the way people saw homosexuality back then as criminal behavior, having her be so understanding was quite a stretch.  

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50 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

I still think that's putting a 21st century spin on it. With the way people saw homosexuality back then as criminal behavior, having her be so understanding was quite a stretch.  

I can very easily believe that she could be kind and empathetic towards someone who'd lost someone they cared for even if she isn't wholly approving of the relationship in the first place. She seemed very modern in that moment for someone who has seemed old-fashioned at other times, but it could just be kindness at work. She was also the person who understood and reached out to Victoria when she was struggling with PPD. That she can be observant and kind is in line with her character so far.

I did wonder if we'd get to keep the Duchess now that Peel is out. Victoria had to bring her in when Peel formed the government but if he's resigning, am I going to lose her now?

The Lezhen/Albert fight was predictable but upsetting. First off, Lezhen was right about the windows. You don't get sick from the cold! Still, she pushed far too much and was too familiar with Victoria and it cost her. She should have listened to Pench, but she was too proud. And she should have called the doctor sooner, but again her pride caused her to dig in her heels. 

Albert, for his part, can be such a know-it-all and it's not an appealing quality. Lezhen has raised a child. He hasn't. And while at the end of the day he's the father and should have more say than the nanny, he's foolish and short-sighted to completely brush off well-intentioned advice from someone with actual experience. (And note that the same thing happened with again when Victoria told him not to publically support Peel because of a friendship. She'd been there with Lord M and it caused a scandal. She had the experience and warned Albert but again, he's a know-it-all and ignored her.) I don't think any of that makes Albert a bad person. People are going to have flaws and he's certainly well intentioned but it caused more problems than it solved here.

Edited by vibeology
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The Albert-Peele bromance is over.

It started with a choo-choo ride and ended with a dry goodbye.

These 2 will see each other in social settings but not with Peele as PM.

Victoria had a blind spot when it came to Lezhen.

Lezhen used that blind spot as cover to jab at Albert... but she poked him once too often and the biggest jab was at Alice's expense.

The phrase...Doesn't your family miss you?...is the equivalent of You've been voted off the island...

Buh Bye Lezhen- don't let the moat bridge hit you on the way out....

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1 hour ago, vibeology said:

I can very easily believe that she could be kind and empathetic towards someone who'd lost someone they cared for even if she isn't wholly approving of the relationship in the first place. She seemed very modern in that moment for someone who has seemed old-fashioned at other times, but it could just be kindness at work. She was also the person who understood and reached out to Victoria when she was struggling with PPD. That she can be observant and kind is in line with her character so far.

I did wonder if we'd get to keep the Duchess now that Peel is out. Victoria had to bring her in when Peel formed the government but if he's resigning, am I going to lose her now?

The Lezhen/Albert fight was predictable but upsetting. First off, Lezhen was right about the windows. You don't get sick from the cold! Still, she pushed far too much and was too familiar with Victoria and it cost her. She should have listened to Pench, but she was too proud. And she should have called the doctor sooner, but again her pride caused her to dig in her heels. 

Albert, for his part, can be such a know-it-all and it's not an appealing quality. Lezhen has raised a child. He hasn't. And while at the end of the day he's the father and should have more say than the nanny, he's foolish and short-sighted to completely brush off well-intentioned advice from someone with actual experience. (And note that the same thing happened with again when Victoria told him not to publically support Peel because of a friendship. She'd been there with Lord M and it caused a scandal. She had the experience and warned Albert but again, he's a know-it-all and ignored her.) I don't think any of that makes Albert a bad person. People are going to have flaws and he's certainly well intentioned but it caused more problems than it solved here.

 

About the Duchess, I agree with you that I think it was realistic for her to be sympathetic in private as she was.  She made it clear to Alfred that the social morays of the time period were still to be respected and followed (her remarks about the chief mourners), but I completely believe that she could also be sensitive enough to give Alfred the private moment that she did.

I disagree with you about Albert and Lehzen.  Maybe at the very beginning, her advice was well-intentioned, but then it became quite clear that she was trying to one-up Albert.

Lehzen may have been right in this instance, but overall, that is not the point for me,  Well-intentioned or not and even correct or not, she does not get to make that decision.  Victoria and Albert do, and I completely understand Albert's stubbornness.  Lehzen's advice about Vicky came with an agenda.

In terms of the situation with Peele, Albert specifically told Victoria that she was correct.  He admitted that she had been right.  He knew that Victoria had been trying to give him true counsel with no agenda.  By contrast, he also knew that Lehzen was attempting to rise way above her station, and Victoria was allowing it to happen.

Edited by Ohmo
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About the Duchess, I agree with you that I think it was realistic for her to be sympathetic in private as she was.  She made it clear to Alfred that the social morays of the time period were still to be respected and followed (her remarks about the chief mourners), but I completely believe that she could also be sensitive enough to give Alfred the private moment that she did.

It's not as though they didn't HAVE homosexuality. Many upper class men had affairs with each other, or went to boy brothels. The unpardonable sin was getting caught at it. I'm sure there were many lavender marriages where it was understood the man would father an heir and a spare and go about his own business.

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Since there doesn't seem to be any historical information about Drummond being gay, and it seems he was actually shot before the vote on the Corn Laws, this looks like a case of inventing a gay "rise and demise" story just for drama and advancing the plot. 

Definitely. Makes me wonder if Drummond has any real-life descendants who might object to this fictionalization of him. Or Lord Alfred, for that matter.

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I still think that's putting a 21st century spin on it. With the way people saw homosexuality back then as criminal behavior, having her be so understanding was quite a stretch.

Probably but I thought it was a nice spin. And heck, for all we know the Duchess had a brother who was gay. I think the idea that people become more conservative in old age is a relatively modern invention. Clearly she's lived a long life and has seen it all. 

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I think Albert really resents that he is Prince to Victoria's Queen.  I understand that this is fictionalized, but he really insulted her in this episode when he critiqued her as spoiled, never having been told no, etc. 

I've seen no evidence of that. Albert knew what he was getting into when he married her. I can imagine how emasculating his position would be for a man of the 19th century and he's making the best of a difficult situation, trying to find his place and be useful to England.

Lehzen was clearly used to having Victoria all to herself and never wanted to share her with anyone so it was probably past time for her to go. She probably would have been a good, reliable nanny to their children but she really wasn't able to let go of the hold she had over Victoria herself. The fact that they were fighting about her in the first place just shows that she came between them.

I really don't understand Francatelli. One minute he's giving Skerrett the silent treatment and in the next episode he's all smiles again and chatting her up like they're old pals. I think it speaks to how poorly developed these "downstairs" characters have been and what little attention the writer has given them. That part of the show, unfortunately, has not improved over the first season.

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I also see kindness established as part of the Duchess’ character, as long as the outward mores of propriety are adhered to. She might have had more of an issue if Drummond had broken off his engagement. It didn’t strike me as an anachronistic attitude, since we also saw the very homoerotic men’s –only bathing scene in a previous episode.  I know the Duchess wasn’t there, but the fact that it happened and was seen as acceptable (just not flaunted) behavior among gentlemen speaks to a more accommodating attitude among the upper classes. Not sure if they were also drawing a parallel to Ernst and Harriet, since their relationship seemed almost like an open secret.

 

Even though I found Lehzen’s departure sad, I’m Team Albert. Even if he doesn’t have the experience of Lehzen, the show has gone out of their way to show how involved he is with his children, as in the scene with him talking with Little Vicky in German. I think she called for him when her fever broke and she became alert again. He has been shown as the type to make himself an expert on anything scientific (Plumbing? Math? Trains? Umbrella and hat design? and so on) that capture his interest. I could see him as being similarly attentive to all the current theories of child-rearing and pediatric health, and it was telling that he had spoken with the doctor before Victoria did.

 

I get what Lehzen means to Victoria, but I agree that Lehzen seem to use it to lord over Alfred and everyone else. She would be visibly annoyed whenever reminded of her place. Alfred put up with a lot of her smug attitude towards him until it threatened to compromise his children’s wellbeing.

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1 minute ago, Kaiju Ballet said:

I also see kindness established as part of the Duchess’ character, as long as the outward mores of propriety are adhered to. She might have had more of an issue if Drummond had broken off his engagement. It didn’t strike me as an anachronistic attitude, since we also saw the very homoerotic men’s –only bathing scene in a previous episode.  I know the Duchess wasn’t there, but the fact that it happened and was seen as acceptable (just not flaunted) behavior among gentlemen speaks to a more accommodating attitude among the upper classes. Not sure if they were also drawing a parallel to Ernst and Harriet, since their relationship seemed almost like an open secret.

 

Even though I found Lehzen’s departure sad, I’m Team Albert. Even if he doesn’t have the experience of Lehzen, the show has gone out of their way to show how involved he is with his children, as in the scene with him talking with Little Vicky in German. I think she called for him when her fever broke and she became alert again. He has been shown as the type to make himself an expert on anything scientific (Plumbing? Math? Trains? Umbrella and hat design? and so on) that capture his interest. I could see him as being similarly attentive to all the current theories of child-rearing and pediatric health, and it was telling that he had spoken with the doctor before Victoria did.

 

I get what Lehzen means to Victoria, but I agree that Lehzen seem to use it to lord over Alfred and everyone else. She would be visibly annoyed whenever reminded of her place. Alfred put up with a lot of her smug attitude towards him until it threatened to compromise his children’s wellbeing.

There are so many similarities between Alfred and Philip (except for the cheating subplot) in terms of a consort marrying a Princess or Queen and then searching to find a meaningful - but proper - place. Philip was also interested in advanced in science, and also wanted a say in the upbringing and education of the children. It's uncanny watching the two series in a row. Elizabeth and Philip seemed to be an updated Victoria and Albert, while Will and Kate have brought Royal families into the 21st century.

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If we have teams ... I guess I'm team Albert. Lehzen has long been overstepping herself in regards to her place in the household and, this time, she took it a step too far by letting it get this far. As many of you have pointed out, Albert and Victoria are Vicky's parents and should have the final say over her well being. Rather than saying, "I believe this or that is best," Victoria kept bringing up Lehzen's views which thrusts Lehzen into the middle of a personal disagreement between the couple. It would've been to Lehzen's benefit to take Victoria aside at some point and suggest that she give Albert the benefit of the doubt as the child's father. She should've also recognized that Victoria and Albert have been pretty good parents to their children and that their children do not need her direct intervention as much as Victoria did when she was a child.

As for Albert calling Victoria spoiled, I don't see that as Albert being jealous of Victoria's station. Victoria has been pretty generous with Albert and respectful of his capabilities, giving him input in her decisions as monarch and respecting his views. This particular argument was between a husband and wife over parenting and had nothing to do with their public roles. He had a perfect right to challenge her and vice versa. If anything, I think their disagreement over how much Albert should interject himself into Peele's problems with Parliament was more one to do with their outward roles and whether Albert was -- like Lehzen -- overstepping his bounds to the detriment of Peele. In fact, it was *almost* a mirror situation to the private one with Albert = Lehzen, Peele = Victoria, and Victoria = Parliament.

Edited by Nidratime
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I do love this show, but I wish they would stop trying to paint it with a modern brush.  I have more to say about that and I will take it to the Victoria History thread.

Lehzen was overstepping her place.  Victoria was spoiled so Albert was absolutely correct in everything he said.  Victoria for most of her life knew she was high in the line of succession for the crown so of course everyone pussy footed around her and kissed her ass.  Albert was her husband and with that intimacy between them he is able to give it to her straight.

Prince Albert was also German royalty (without as much wealth) so it would seem to me he well understood the role and responsibility that came with the British crown.  I don't think he was jealous of Victoria at all, and during Victoria's pregnancies he would fill in for her.  He was a dedicated husband and father.  He took his role as father to the heirs to the British crown very seriously and he wanted the children properly attended to and educated.

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2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Definitely. Makes me wonder if Drummond has any real-life descendants who might object to this fictionalization of him. Or Lord Alfred, for that matter.

Lord Alfred married and had 14 children.  Surely SOME descendants are still alive.

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I sometimes wonder if Victoria is trying to compete with Downton Abbey.  The inclusion of the staff story lines and the gay love affair are both very Downton Abbey like.  In my opinion, Downton did it better.

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V is a tepid watered down imitatey of Downton Abbey.

Plueeze...the Dowager would kick the Duchess' royal butt.

The driver, Tom Branson and Lady Sybil  much more interesting love story than the cook and the dresser.

The DA's downstairs story lines were more richly written....Daisy, Mrs. Hughes, Thomas' love encounters more real and rough, William, Gwen...too many to list here.

Mr. Carson has more dignity in his pinky than Penge will ever have...

I could go on and on, but I will shut up...

Masterpiece Theater would love if Victoria had the fan base of DA but Daisy is no Julian Fellowes...

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1 hour ago, AirQuotes said:

 

Lehzen was overstepping her place.  Victoria was spoiled so Albert was absolutely correct in everything he said.  Victoria for most of her life knew she was high in the line of succession for the crown so of course everyone pussy footed around her and kissed her ass.  Albert was her husband and with that intimacy between them he is able to give it to her straight.

 

Part of Victoria's problem was that while she was growing up, under the control of her mother and Conroy, no one pussy footed or kissed her ass.  She was excessively coddled and kept from participating in normal activities, and constantly told she wasn't in charge of her own life.  Baroness Lehnzen, as her companion/governess, was the only one who really supported her.  That's why Victoria put her in charge of her household when she became queen, rather than her mother or Conroy who really expected to control the queen as they had the princess.  

I don't know historically how much of this episode was accurate, but having taken care of Victoria for most of her life, by this time, the Baroness had already had a good long career.

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The Baroness threw away a cushy life in the royal household overseeing a staff of nurses hired to do the hands on work while she ordered them around while getting the credit for taking care of the increasing number of princesses and princes...

Now she is exiled far away from the excitement of being an esteemed mover and shaker in Palace life.

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One thing I wanted to add, since some have made comments about feeling bad for Lehzen, the show gives us nothing in terms of what Victoria did for Lehzen in her "retirement." We just see a carriage driving off and Victoria looking out the window. As a previous poster mentioned, the real Lehzen

Spoiler

was given a generous pension, reconnected with her sister, and helped support her nieces and nephews. I'm not sure that made up for Lehzen losing her life with Victoria, but she wasn't left to fend for herself as some imagined.

As for Victoria, the show, not measuring up to Downton -- at the risk of going off topic, we have to keep in mind that Downton was almost entirely fictional. Other than including events like WWI, soldiers rehabilitating on estates, changing roles of women, etc., it could create whatever drama it wanted. The writer could go in any direction, both in terms of the upstairs characters and downstairs. Imagine having to kill off the Queen because the actress wanted to leave the series! ;-)  On the other hand, Victoria has to respect the historical record of real life people and events. In addition, Downton was about Downton -- the entire estate and all its inhabitants -- while Victoria is about the Queen, her personal life and her role as monarch. The show's not called Windsor or Buckingham Palace, so I don't think we should expect much in terms of the lives of staff who do not directly impact the Queen and her family.

Edited by Nidratime
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Agree, comparing apples to oranges....

The audience wants so badly to love Victoria as much as they did Downtown Abbey...comparisons are natural but unfair....

Just happy to have Victoria and The Crown to help me get over the end of Downtown Abbey....it's been over  2 years since we said good bye to DA...*sob*.....

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20 hours ago, Ohmo said:

In fact, I believe that Albert thinks his wife is quite intelligent.  I think it frustrates him when she doesn't seem to "read the room" so to speak because I think he believes she can.  On the flip side of that, we saw him in a similar place to where I think he sometimes believes Victoria is.  He was unable to "read the room" about the Corn Laws, so I think that gave him a taste of what Victoria deals with sometimes as monarch.

 

It might have helped if Victoria had explained why Albert shouldn't go to parliament.  I didn't understand until I saw the scene play out -- that Albert's presence made it look like Peel was bringing in the big guns, thinking it would influence the vote.  (The Queen wants this!)  And that it also made Peel appear out of touch, like he didn't understand that parliament would not want to appear to be influenced by what Victoria or Albert wanted.  Albert didn't understand it until the opposition guy spoke up, and by then it was too late.  

Although the vote did go their way, so maybe Albert's presence actually helped. 

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22 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Oh yes! And the white horse Albert rode last week was gorgeous too.

I am glad to know that I am not the only one who swoons for a gorgeous horse. ?

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On 2/20/2018 at 2:52 PM, AZChristian said:

Lord Alfred married and had 14 children.  Surely SOME descendants are still alive.

I just saved myself from a long descent from a Wikipedia rabbit hole, but there are definitely living great-grandchildren!

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On 2/19/2018 at 7:12 PM, Zella said:

Peel has really grown on me. When he was first introduced last season, I didn't expect to like him, but I was saddened to see him exit. 

I'm watching a new Netflix series called "The Frankenstein Chronicles." It's set during the Victorian era . . . and Sir Robert Peel (as Home Secretary) is one of the characters.  Looks nothing like the one in "Victoria."

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:17 PM, Jazzhands said:

It looked like a Friesian to me. 

Agreed. It's a shame there wasn't a good shot of the mane.

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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, humbleopinion said:

V is a tepid watered down imitatey of Downton Abbey.

I agree. But there's almost 70 years between V and DA. It's a world of difference and Victoria requires a lot more restraint. A LOT changed in those 70 years. Much of DA would have been scandalous 70 years before. Prudishness is not called "Victorian" for no reason.

Edited by Ina123
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16 hours ago, Ina123 said:
On 2/20/2018 at 1:29 PM, humbleopinion said:

V is a tepid watered down imitatey of Downton Abbey.

I agree. But there's almost 70 years between V and DA. It's a world of difference and Victoria requires a lot more restraint. A LOT changed in those 70 years. Much of DA would have been scandalous 70 years before. Prudishness is not called "Victorian" for no reason.

I have felt all along that it is unfair to compare the two series.  Victoria should be able to stand or fall on its own merit.  

I also feel that as far as the scandalous portions of both shows are actually pretty similar so far.  The most surprising thing about DA for the Victoria characters would be the freedoms that women had and their shocking fashions of course.

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She’s probably a work of fiction as she stands portrayed, but I love the duchess. Her warm sympathy toward Victoria about her postpartum depression, getting her a new puppy, and her kindness toward Lord Alfred - to let him learn the news privately and giving him the opportunity to process it away from others. And in her quiet acknowledgment that she was aware of their “fondness”, she was validating it. 

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:38 AM, Kohola3 said:

With the way people saw homosexuality back then as criminal behavior, having her be so understanding was quite a stretch.  

Laws weren't made for aristocrats: that is, laws of social conduct. The price paid by aristocrats for their private licence was rigid adherence to in-tribe rules of social convention and deportment -- and supposedly, good stewardship of their property and tenants. Victoria lightly noted that she hadn't imagined Mr. Drummond "to be the marrying kind" -- a euphemism. The Duchess, more worldly (as shown), believed in both halves of the bargain. Her son, brother or father may have been gay. 

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To add to what @Pallas wrote, marriages in those days were still mostly business arrangements rather than love matches, so the fact that Lord Alfred and Wilhelmina actually liked each other already puts them ahead of the game. Depending on their specific understanding, it's entirely possible they could have a very happy, fulfilling life together.

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I was thinking that Ernst might just end up marrying the Princess Prigg in Germany, and gifting her the gift of syphilis because he just dislikes her that much. It's a drag that he cant just talk to Harriet about it, I doubt she'd care at this point and they could find a work around, if you will...

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On 2/26/2018 at 8:29 AM, Pallas said:

Laws weren't made for aristocrats: that is, laws of social conduct. The price paid by aristocrats for their private licence was rigid adherence to in-tribe rules of social convention and deportment -- and supposedly, good stewardship of their property and tenants. Victoria lightly noted that she hadn't imagined Mr. Drummond "to be the marrying kind" -- a euphemism. The Duchess, more worldly (as shown), believed in both halves of the bargain. Her son, brother or father may have been gay. 

Exactly. Rich people are able to do what they want in private so long as they followed public convention. Most aristocratic men did marry because it was expected to them- if they were considerate they informed their brides of the situation so that there would be no misunderstanding.

Just because something was a “crime” didn’t mean people didn’t participate. Adultery was also a crime yet many many men had mistresses. Male homosexuality was a crime but that didn’t mean most men who were gay or bisexual lived lives without partnered sex and intimacy- human nature doesn’t work that way. 

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On ‎19‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 5:31 AM, yorklee2 said:

I wondered too if maybe the show is angling towards a Lord Alfred/Miss Coke pairing next season. Will be interesting to see how that develops. 

Why? Miss Coke has seen him kissing Drummond, and it seems she has understanding for their love (cf. David and Jonathan). But what woman wants to accept the second place in his husband's heart? At least, if she doesn't love another?  

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On ‎19‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 6:55 AM, Ohmo said:

Gotta say, I'm with Albert on this one.  I think the last straw was that Lehzen was trying to make decisions about what was best for Princess Vicky.  I know royal children were predominately raised by nannies and governesses, but even handwaving all of that, it was clear that Lehzen had a certain amount of influence on Victoria.  If I were a parent like Albert and I knew that my wishes about the care and well-being of my child were being explicitly countermanded by someone who wasn't the child's other parent, I'd be ticked off as well.  Lehzen took it a little too far and wouldn't back off.  Like Penge tried to warn her, Albert would always win that battle if it came to it...and it did.

 

On ‎19‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 10:50 AM, taurusrose said:

LOL. I don’t agree with this at all.  Lehzen ran over all the staff as long as she could because of her relationship with Victoria.  IMO, it made her think that going against everything Albert said about the care of his children wasn’t going to bite her in the ass. I don’t have a problem with Albert giving Victoria an ultimatum. Think of it in modern terms.  How would you feel if you had an interfering MIL in your home undermining every decision made about childcare and basically trying to come between you and your spouse? I’m pretty sure most of us would not like it and would draw a line in the sand, just like Albert did. Penge warned Lehzen to step off, but she was confident that Victoria’s love would protect her from Albert’s increasing annoyance. I don’t doubt that Lehzen was sincere in all that she said or that Victoria loved her, but she overplayed her hand when she decided to ignore what the child’s father wanted. And then there was that crack about Albert not respecting Victoria’s authority. That was said mainly to create doubt in Victoria.  That was trying to undermine his authority. Goodbye, Lehzen. Have fun in Germany. 

 

On ‎19‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 10:40 PM, Ohmo said:

That's it in a nutshell.  During that time period, place mattered, and not only was Lehzen trying to usurp Albert's place as Little Vicky's father, he was also Prince Consort of the flipping nation!  This reminded me very much of when Albert told Ernst to go home to Coburg because he was being very obvious about messing around with Harriet.  There was no doubt then that Albert was using his authority, and I have no problem with him doing the same here as well.  Lehzen forgot who she was, where she was, and with whom she was clashing.  As the husband of the monarch, Lehzen was expected to give Albert a certain amount of deference and respect.  If she didn't want to do that anymore, then she was free to leave, but Albert could not let such insubordination stand unchallenged.

I didn't like Albert's authoritarian behavior toward Victoria at all, and he was wrong to think that fresh air was bad for Vicky.

Yet, the analysis above are basically right. Even if Lehzen hadn't been Victoria's servant but her mother, it would have damaged the marriage if she had continued to side with Lehzen against her husband.

If there had been a similar situation where Albert's mother would have ordered all things connected with her grandchildren, and Albert would always have sided with her against Victoria, wouldn't we think that he must stop his mother from interfering and put his wife first?     

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5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why? Miss Coke has seen him kissing Drummond, and it seems she has understanding for their love (cf. David and Jonathan). But what woman wants to accept the second place in his husband's heart? At least, if she doesn't love another?  

I don't know I think there's a deep friendship and understanding between them that I would suppose in those days was rare. A great foundation to grow into romantic love and it's not as if he rejected Drummond for her due to social obligations therefore making her second. There's room in a heart for more than one love. The memory of one and the one that makes it's own place in your heart. 

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15 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

I don't know I think there's a deep friendship and understanding between them that I would suppose in those days was rare. A great foundation to grow into romantic love and it's not as if he rejected Drummond for her due to social obligations therefore making her second. There's room in a heart for more than one love. The memory of one and the one that makes it's own place in your heart. 

I don't think that spouses were supposed to be friends at that time. It's a modern idea. 

Most of all, what if he isn't only bisexual but homosexual and ony wanted to have a marriage for a set up in order to hide his affairs?

Drummond at least wanted to be honest and break up his engagement. That of course would have raised doubts that his reason was that he had noticed some fault in his fiancee. Thus, his heroic death was a a secret blessing to her.    

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Miss Cook sees marrying Lord Alfred as benefiting both of them in society and within the monarchy...

Lord Alfred has a wife who understood his love for Drummond and helped him grieve for him.

Miss Cook has a devoted husband who is her friend.

What happens when Lord Alfred has those thousand mile stares... will it be about his dead love...or another object of his forbidden desires.... maybe I will write a script treatment.....

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6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that spouses were supposed to be friends at that time. It's a modern idea. 

Most of all, what if he isn't only bisexual but homosexual and ony wanted to have a marriage for a set up in order to hide his affairs?

Drummond at least wanted to be honest and break up his engagement. That of course would have raised doubts that his reason was that he had noticed some fault in his fiancee. Thus, his heroic death was a a secret blessing to her.    

I don't pretend to know how society dealt with these types of marriages or what the norm was in these situations but if what you say is so than that doesn't mean they had to necessarily adhere to it. It doesn't mean it couldn't have happened that they would be close friends. I would think there were outliers.

I'm sure there were many bisexuals and homosexuals who did marry as fronts to society but we're talking about how the show or scriptwriters choose to present it. And that is that Lord Alfred seemed very excited and anxious for Miss Coke to accept his proposal. He seemed very respectful and admiring of her. We have seen that the show has no problem in stretching the truth so even though it may have been a forgone conclusion that that was the case the show gave us no hint of understanding that this would be a marriage in name only. My perception was that Lord Alfred truly thought of her as a friend and there was a unspoken bond between them that he was willing and anxious to want to love her beyond that. Or at least try. I think he had too much love and admiration for her as a friend to do otherwise. 

I could be wrong but that was my perception. You may have saw it differently of course.

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14 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

I'm sure there were many bisexuals and homosexuals who did marry as fronts to society but we're talking about how the show or scriptwriters choose to present it. And that is that Lord Alfred seemed very excited and anxious for Miss Coke to accept his proposal. 

Did he propose? I didn't notice it. But if he indeed did, does it raise doubts about his motives that he did it just after his lover was buried?  

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1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Did he propose? I didn't notice it. But if he indeed did, does it raise doubts about his motives that he did it just after his lover was buried?  

Oh you missed it? Yes he indeed did. Specifically he asked her to do him the great honor of being his wife. Why would his lover just dying have to raise any doubtful motives? If anything I would think it strengthens the argument that he really cared for Miss Coke. Drummond dying so unexpectedly I believe made him realize that life was short and that he should seize the chance to find some happiness in his life. Miss Coke was very compassionate and understanding of his grief after losing Drummond. He  came to realize what a lovely person she was and that she may be his best chance at finding some form of happiness. They both stood to gain from the union for various reasons but one of the reasons I think that gave it a good chance to last was that these two really liked each other. Which is so important. You can love someone but not actually like them. So they had a deep fondness, respect and admiration for each other. Not a bad basis for something deeper to form. But if not then I believe he would conduct himself in a way that was the least harmful and embarrassing to her. 

Like I said before that was my perception of it. But of course I have no idea where the scriptwriters are going with this next season. We'll just have to wait and see.

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3 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

Oh you missed it? Yes he indeed did. Specifically he asked her to do him the great honor of being his wife. Why would his lover just dying have to raise any doubtful motives? If anything I would think it strengthens the argument that he really cared for Miss Coke. Drummond dying so unexpectedly I believe made him realize that life was short and that he should seize the chance to find some happiness in his life. Miss Coke was very compassionate and understanding of his grief after losing Drummond. He  came to realize what a lovely person she was and that she may be his best chance at finding some form of happiness. They both stood to gain from the union for various reasons but one of the reasons I think that gave it a good chance to last was that these two really liked each other. Which is so important. You can love someone but not actually like them. So they had a deep fondness, respect and admiration for each other. Not a bad basis for something deeper to form. But if not then I believe he would conduct himself in a way that was the least harmful and embarrassing to her. 

Like I said before that was my perception of it. But of course I have no idea where the scriptwriters are going with this next season. We'll just have to wait and see.

Yes, I missed it.

I am sorry but the circumstances make me doubt his motives. No serious decision should be made when one is in grief. He either wants to have a "plaster relationship" after losing his true love (I don't know what the term is in English) or make himself as well as her believe that marriage can save him from "sin", instead of trying first to find out what he really is. Neither is a good basis for a permanent relationship.

If they marry, it would be best to have an agreement that after an heir and spare, also the wife is free to have affairs if only she conducts them secretly, as is also his duty.    

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On ‎20‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 2:22 AM, seacliffsal said:

Prince Albert reminds me of the real-life Prince Consort of Denmark who recently died.  He was so embittered about the fact that he was never named as King while his wife is (she is still living, so present tense) Queen, that he refused to be buried next to her.  He told her this and she has honored it.  I think Albert really resents that he is Prince to Victoria's Queen.  I understand that this is fictionalized, but he really insulted her in this episode when he critiqued her as spoiled, never having been told no, etc.  I haven't liked his characterization this entire season, but this episode really increased my dislike for him.

 

On ‎20‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 6:05 AM, Ohmo said:

Wow, mileage certainly does vary because I don't think that Albert insulted Victoria.  He was trying to make a point, and I chalked up his choice of the word "spoiled" as one that a man whose first language was not English would probably land on, especially during the heat of an argument.  He was trying to get Victoria to see what Lehzen was doing, and I think "spoiled" came out in the frustration of the exchange.  Lehzen tried to pull something similar with the Scotland trip.  She just assumed that she would get to hear the bagpipes because of course Victoria would bring her on the trip.  Victoria said no because of the children, but I don't think she was aware of what Lehzen was doing.

In fact, I believe that Albert thinks his wife is quite intelligent.  I think it frustrates him when she doesn't seem to "read the room" so to speak because I think he believes she can.  On the flip side of that, we saw him in a similar place to where I think he sometimes believes Victoria is.  He was unable to "read the room" about the Corn Laws, so I think that gave him a taste of what Victoria deals with sometimes as monarch.

I don't think he resents Victoria at all, nor do I think he wants to be King.  I do think he wants those around him to take maximum advantage of every opportunity in life..  He's that way with Victoria, he was that way with Peele, and he's been that way about bringing progress to England.

I think Albert resents that his wife has a higher position than he has. Lehzen was quite right in it that he eants to have command over her. Of course, there is nothing usual in his attitudes and behavior - Albert is an authoritarian man of his times. 

On ‎18‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 1:19 AM, Zima said:

Albert has been getting on my nerves all season, but this episode was the worst. I can't believe that he made Victoria choose between him and Lehzen. Lehzen has been her family since she was a little child, and he forced her to dismiss her like that. I feel like just sitting down with her and having a serious talk about boundaries would have sufficed. Ugh. 

Albert reminds of Prince Philip but the latter couldn't interfere in politics, so it was only the family he could have the sole authority. Albert had the method as Philip in The Queen: do as I say, if you want to keep your husband.   

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3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, I missed it.

I am sorry but the circumstances make me doubt his motives. No serious decision should be made when one is in grief. He either wants to have a "plaster relationship" after losing his true love (I don't know what the term is in English) or make himself as well as her believe that marriage can save him from "sin", instead of trying first to find out what he really is. Neither is a good basis for a permanent relationship.

If they marry, it would be best to have an agreement that after an heir and spare, also the wife is free to have affairs if only she conducts them secretly, as is also his duty.    

I can see why you would feel that way but honestly the show was kind of vague on exactly what kind of marriage it would be. I know they certainly never showed them discussing that it was to be a marriage of convenience only. Maybe we the audience were to just assume that? I do know they both seemed to be giddy with happiness. Maybe that was because they had both found a good as can be expected situation with someone they actually liked and admired.

But I disagree that neither would be a basis for a permanent relationship. If they had this understanding going in that they would love and respect each other as friends, with both having the freedom to discreetly pursue romantic relationships as they saw fit, then I see no reason why it couldn't be a successful partnership.

As I said I don't know where the writers intend to go with this but we will see.

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11 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

I do know they both seemed to be giddy with happiness.

How can a man be "giddy with happiness" proposing a marriage just after losing his lover and woman accepting him but knowing he loves another? Either they pretend feelings they don't feel or they betray themselves. Or, most likely, the writers are too lazy. 

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I don’t see Albert “resenting” his wife at all. In fact, it seems to me he deeply loves her, feels a great duty to support her, and only wants the best for her and his adopted country. When he attended Parliment, it was a cause that both he and Victoria greatly supported — it wasn’t like he went there to undermine her position on the issue. In regard to the whole argument about her being “spoiled,” I see that as an argument between a husband and wife, not Queen and subject. It had to do with marital issues of placing boundaries in a marriage  with respect to in-laws (although Lehzen was technically a servant, her relationship with Victoria was more that of mother and daughter). Lehzen disliked Albert from the beginning, flat out telling Victoria that she thought he was not worthy of her “as a second son from nowhere.” On top of that, she busts into their bedroom whenever she likes, shoots him dirty looks when Victoria and Albert are in disputes, tries to reinforce Victoria’s fears that Albert does not need her, and then uses little Vicky as a pawn (knowing how much Albert adores the child as there have been many scenes of Lehzen observing Albert with Vicky) to attempt to demonstrate the she (Lehzen) is more valuable to Victoria then her husband because as Lehzen stated “she ONLY serves” Victoria (playing on Victoria’s deepest fears that she might be abandoned one day). I feel bad for Lehzen, but I think the whole situation demonstrates how these royal servants basically sacrificed their whole lives for these royals (forced to forego families of their own) and then when their time for service ended (in Lehzen’s case when Victoria became an adult as she was Victoria’s governess), they are left with nothing. I read that Lehzen raised Victoria to be the next Virgin Queen - to never marry and never be dependent on a man. I think Lehzen planned to remain Victoria’s most trusted counsel as Victoria reigned alone. This plan fell to pieces when she married Albert, and, probably desperate to not end up alone, Lehzen then started creating a wedge between Albert and Victoria. As shown, this did not work out for Lehzen as Victoria chose to let go of some of her childhood fears and trust Albert.

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1 hour ago, Nolefan said:

I don’t see Albert “resenting” his wife at all. In fact, it seems to me he deeply loves her, feels a great duty to support her, and only wants the best for her and his adopted country. When he attended Parliment, it was a cause that both he and Victoria greatly supported — it wasn’t like he went there to undermine her position on the issue. In regard to the whole argument about her being “spoiled,” I see that as an argument between a husband and wife, not Queen and subject. It had to do with marital issues of placing boundaries in a marriage  with respect to in-laws (although Lehzen was technically a servant, her relationship with Victoria was more that of mother and daughter). Lehzen disliked Albert from the beginning, flat out telling Victoria that she thought he was not worthy of her “as a second son from nowhere.” On top of that, she busts into their bedroom whenever she likes, shoots him dirty looks when Victoria and Albert are in disputes, tries to reinforce Victoria’s fears that Albert does not need her, and then uses little Vicky as a pawn (knowing how much Albert adores the child as there have been many scenes of Lehzen observing Albert with Vicky) to attempt to demonstrate the she (Lehzen) is more valuable to Victoria then her husband because as Lehzen stated “she ONLY serves” Victoria (playing on Victoria’s deepest fears that she might be abandoned one day). I feel bad for Lehzen, but I think the whole situation demonstrates how these royal servants basically sacrificed their whole lives for these royals (forced to forego families of their own) and then when their time for service ended (in Lehzen’s case when Victoria became an adult as she was Victoria’s governess), they are left with nothing. I read that Lehzen raised Victoria to be the next Virgin Queen - to never marry and never be dependent on a man. I think Lehzen planned to remain Victoria’s most trusted counsel as Victoria reigned alone. This plan fell to pieces when she married Albert, and, probably desperate to not end up alone, Lehzen then started creating a wedge between Albert and Victoria. As shown, this did not work out for Lehzen as Victoria chose to let go of some of her childhood fears and trust Albert.

That is very interesting and I wish the show would have explored it better. You are right about servants giving up their lives to serve Noble masters and mistresses who had the power of life and death over them. It must have been very stressful.

I have to ask. We have heard many times about how Victoria found Albert so attractive almost on first or second sight and fell instantly in love with him. Do you think the real Albert liked her in the beginning or was it more that she was a great catch being the queen of England? I know they ended up having a great relationship, but he really did marry up financially and would probably be called a gold digger if he was a woman. 

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Mod Note:

Historical facts or evidence to support theories that have not been used or revealed in the show should be posted according to this forum's spoiler policy; when answering a query with stuff like this please quote the post and reply in History Talk topic.

Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Nolefan said:

I don’t see Albert “resenting” his wife at all. In fact, it seems to me he deeply loves her, feels a great duty to support her, and only wants the best for her and his adopted country. When he attended Parliment, it was a cause that both he and Victoria greatly supported — it wasn’t like he went there to undermine her position on the issue.

The most important thing is that Victoria said that it would be unwise for Albert to go as it was unconstitutinal. But Albert didn't listen to her - a clear sig that he resented that her position  was higher than he. As an authoritarian man of his times, he simply couldn't admit that she was right and he was wrong. And most of all, even if she hadn't been right, she was the Queen and this was the public state business, so he shouldn't act against her will.

Well, maybe the reason why he chose to go was because Victoria didn't follow her opinion but that of Lehzen in upbringing Vicky. But then he acted in a very childish way.     

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