Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
SilverStormm

S02.E08: The Luxury of Conscience

Recommended Posts

Episode Synopsis:

Albert resents Lehzen's influence over the queen, and fears she is putting the health of their child at risk. The prince also unwittingly creates problems for Peel, who is facing the most important battle of his political career as he takes a stand against the corn laws, only to find that Albert has played into their enemies' hands. When tragedy strikes, personal and political sacrifices must be made.

Important Note:

Please ensure you have read and understand the forum spoiler policy before posting in here.

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post

Albert has been getting on my nerves all season, but this episode was the worst. I can't believe that he made Victoria choose between him and Lehzen. Lehzen has been her family since she was a little child, and he forced her to dismiss her like that. I feel like just sitting down with her and having a serious talk about boundaries would have sufficed. Ugh. 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post

Agreed, although I suppose I'm the opposite when it comes to Albert: I never liked him, and I guess tonight was the first time I really felt for him when he had to say goodbye to Peel, who in a way has been a better father to him than the other two... He looked like a lost little boy while he was walking away...

But poor Lehzen, mostly! Basically thrown out on the street... What will she do? No husband, no children, a family who doesn't care about her, and now no job, presumably no money either... No friends left in Germany... That was a very cruel thing to do!

Also: can't believe the whole thing between Drummond and Lord Alfred has been teased all season for it to amount to nothing in the end! Although I must say I wasn't expecting Bucclough (sp?) to have guessed, that was a nice twist.

For next year, I want nice things for *Lord Alfred and Miss Coke, as well as Skerrett and Francatelli, and NO Ernst and Harriet, please!

Edited by GinnyMars
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, GinnyMars said:

For next year, I want nice things for Drummond and Miss Coke, as well as Skerrett and Francatelli, and NO Ernst and Harriet, please!

I don't think Drummond will be able to make an appearance next year given his plot line.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

As always the beautiful costuming. Watching little Vicky being sick I had to remember that antiemetic drugs were not available and palliative care was all they could do for that sick child. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Ugh, now I really detest Albert.  What a douche, choose between me and Lehzen?  Victoria should have called that asshole’s bluff and told him, “bye Felecia.”

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post

I had to laugh when Uncle Leopold told Albert maybe it wasn't the best idea to tell him Leopold might be his father. Way to try to put the toothpaste back in the tube, Leopold.

I feel sorry for Lehzen and I don't. It's sad she was let go, but she continually undermined Albert to Victoria. I don't think a discussion about boundaries would have had a lasting effect.

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

Watching little Vicky being sick I had to remember that antiemetic drugs were not available and palliative care was all they could do for that sick child. 

I wondered why she wasn't given aspirin, and it's because that wonder drug wasn't yet invented/discovered. I guess no one at the palace was a believer in herbal remedies? Willow bark might have helped Vicky's fever.

Edited by dubbel zout · Reason: preposition change
  • Like 16

Share this post


Link to post

This is the season finale: next week is the "Christmas Episode" that is sort of a wrap-up episode. It looks like fun, if only because many modern-day customs were first originated by V & A.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

As always the beautiful costuming. Watching little Vicky being sick I had to remember that antiemetic drugs were not available and palliative care was all they could do for that sick child. 

I think you were meaning antipyretics. Antiemetics are used to combat nausea and vomiting. Which at that time they had neither one. Well maybe only herbal remedies. How scary especially when a child is sick.

Edited by yorklee2
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I swear, Mr. Penge must be the worst person to invite to a party. Even when he isn't going on racist tirades and making teenagers cry, he wanders around reminding everyone that "the angel of death hovers around us each day" and such uplifting things during everyone's break. 

I do kind of agree with Albert that Lehzen has tried to get in between him and Victoria, but making Victoria ditch her was uncalled for. And normally I really like Albert and find his moodiness and pride to be understandable, if not always likable, but that was sad to watch. I mean, he wasn't really wrong about how she is, but still. 

Of course, not as sad as Drummond getting killed by of some random guy taking a shot at Peel. I saw online when I ended up on a Victoria Wiki hole that he was going to die, but I didn't realize it would be this soon! He and Lord Alfred never even got to first base! I knew that I would be heartbroken seeing Alfreds reaction, but Peels reaction was super affecting as well. When he started crying when he told Victoria and Albert what happened, I started tearing up. As much as I will miss him around, I can understand him not wanting to do the job anymore. And Albert was so sad to see him go! I liked their friendship a lot, and Peel really grew on me. 

It was nice to see the Duchess supporting Lord Alfred and helping him keep it together when she told him about Drummond. The Duchess might not be the most fun person to hang out with at a party, but she sure is a good person to have around during an emotional crisis. 

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/18/2017 at 6:03 PM, GinnyMars said:

Agreed, although I suppose I'm the opposite when it comes to Albert: I never liked him, and I guess tonight was the first time I really felt for him when he had to say goodbye to Peel, who in a way has been a better father to him than the other two... He looked like a lost little boy while he was walking away...

But poor Lehzen, mostly! Basically thrown out on the street... What will she do? No husband, no children, a family who doesn't care about her, and now no job, presumably no money either... No friends left in Germany... That was a very cruel thing to do!

Also: can't believe the whole thing between Drummond and Lord Alfred has been teased all season for it to amount to nothing in the end! Although I must say I wasn't expecting Bucclough (sp?) to have guessed, that was a nice twist.

For next year, I want nice things for *Lord Alfred and Miss Coke, as well as Skerrett and Francatelli, and NO Ernst and Harriet, please!

 

Yes it was really sad to see Lehzen dismissed but I agree that she was set in her ways and was constantly undermining Albert. It looks like Victoria could have secured her a position elsewhere after so many years of faithful service though.

Count me surprised also with the Duchess Buccalaugh revelation. I guess there's more to her than just the stuffy, cantankerous old woman, huh?

I wondered too if maybe the show is angling towards a Lord Alfred/Miss Coke pairing next season. Will be interesting to see how that develops. 

The downstairs characters/stories are starting to seem relevant and likeable now. Penge for the first time actually seemed like he had a heart when he showed compassion to Lehzen on her departure and Skeritt/Franketelli are coming along nicely.

Edited by yorklee2
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

I can sort of see where Albert was coming from but the way he went about separating Victoria from her life long mother figure Lehzen showed very poor character. He behaved like a passive-aggressive ass.

What is going to happen to Lehzen now? I fear the worst for her.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

I have to say, now that they actually seem happy to be around each other instead of engaging in boring ANGST, I actually like Mrs. Skerrett and Francatelli, and find them to be quite charming together. In general, I find the downstairs stuff this season a lot more interesting this season than last. It felt rather tacked on last season, but now the downstairs characters actually seem real, and more fleshed out, and, most importantly, they actually serve a narrative point more often than they did before. 

  • Like 13

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, magdalene said:

What is going to happen to Lehzen now? I fear the worst for her.

From Wiki: 

When Lehzen was dismissed from the court in 1842 she returned to her native Germany, living in Bückeburg near Hanover. She lived with her sister on the generous pension that Victoria sent her,[47][54][56] and covered the walls of her house with portraits of the queen.[54] Though her sister died several months later,[2] the baroness continued to support financially her many nieces and nephews.[60] Lehzen continued to regard Victoria with affection, and the queen wrote regularly to her former governess, weekly at first and later monthly at Lehzen's request.[56] When visiting relations in Germany, the queen came to visit her twice in private.[57] The Baroness Lehzen died in Bückeburg on 9 September 1870,[2][57] where she is buried in Jetenburger cemetery. Queen Victoria ordered the erection of a memorial to her.[2]

  • Like 22

Share this post


Link to post

Eh, Lehzen was a nuserymaid to Victoria.  The Queen is married now, and there's no place for her nanny in that relationship.  Sad for L, but it was inevitable.  If Victoria had married a weenie, there might have been room for another strong personality.  But Albert is far from that, and it's fair for him to say, I want my wife to myself.  After all, Ernst is a fine support to his brother, but he's not all up in the business of The Crown.

Speaking of ErnstMyErnst!  Thanks for giving me him in his bath before you dropped the other fuckin' shoe on my head.  Christ! I thought as long as we were going to be historically...elastic, I might get my Bavarian, Delighted.  Alas.

Thanks, Penge, for giving the classy sendoff.  There was probably an element of "There but for the grace go I!", but he didn't *have* to.  And the auf Deutsch made me tear up.  Just ein bischen.

Edited by voiceover · Reason: Oops. Autocorrect is annoying as Penge
  • Like 22

Share this post


Link to post
43 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Eh, Lehzen was a nuserymaid to Victoria.  The Queen is married now, and there's no place for her nanny in that relationship.  Sad for L, but it was inevitable.  If Victoria has married a weenie, there might have been room for another strong personality.  But Alfred is far from that, and it's fair for him to say, I want my wife to myself.  After all, Ernst is a fine support to his brother, but he's not all up in the business of The Crown.

Gotta say, I'm with Albert on this one.  I think the last straw was that Lehzen was trying to make decisions about what was best for Princess Vicky.  I know royal children were predominately raised by nannies and governesses, but even handwaving all of that, it was clear that Lehzen had a certain amount of influence on Victoria.  If I were a parent like Albert and I knew that my wishes about the care and well-being of my child were being explicitly countermanded by someone who wasn't the child's other parent, I'd be ticked off as well.  Lehzen took it a little too far and wouldn't back off.  Like Penge tried to warn her, Albert would always win that battle if it came to it...and it did.

Heartsick about Drummond and I'm going to miss Peele.  I liked him.

Unfortunately, I now only think of Ernst as a walking STD.  I'm glad he's spared Harriet that fate.

Edited by Ohmo
  • Like 22

Share this post


Link to post

Feeling very sorry for Lord Alfred. I hope it is a slight comfort to him that somebody (the Duchess) knows how he feels and apparently is discreet and non-judgmental.  I suppose he went to his room at that point and cried his heart out alone.

Edited by souliersnoirs · Reason: Name inaccuracy
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
On 10/17/2017 at 6:19 PM, Zima said:

Albert has been getting on my nerves all season, but this episode was the worst. I can't believe that he made Victoria choose between him and Lehzen. Lehzen has been her family since she was a little child, and he forced her to dismiss her like that. I feel like just sitting down with her and having a serious talk about boundaries would have sufficed. Ugh. 

No kidding. He also insulted Victoria when he said Lehzen spoiled her. If it weren’t for Lehzen, Victoria’s mother and Conroy would have run all over Victoria when she was little.

Would someone ask Leopold if he didn’t have a country to run or something? I don’t mind Ernst hanging around England but not Leopold! Hope someone was following the pony with a shovel. ? 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
23 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Now that I know the actor playing Francatelli is Ben Kingsley’s son, I can see the resemblance.

Holy crap!!!!

Now I love him more.

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post

Miss Coke has grown on me. I especially liked her this episode.

I wish Ernst could tell Harriet the truth. Not that the truth would make her at all happy, but personally I would prefer the truth to what I assume will be him distancing himself from her.

Well, this episode was a barrel of laughs. The only positive thing was the Skerritt/Francatelli courtship.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
On 2/18/2018 at 10:45 PM, magdalene said:

I can sort of see where Albert was coming from but the way he went about separating Victoria from her life long mother figure Lehzen showed very poor character. He behaved like a passive-aggressive ass.

What is going to happen to Lehzen now? I fear the worst for her.

LOL. I don’t agree with this at all.  Lehzen ran over all the staff as long as she could because of her relationship with Victoria.  IMO, it made her think that going against everything Albert said about the care of his children wasn’t going to bite her in the ass. I don’t have a problem with Albert giving Victoria an ultimatum. Think of it in modern terms.  How would you feel if you had an interfering MIL in your home undermining every decision made about childcare and basically trying to come between you and your spouse? I’m pretty sure most of us would not like it and would draw a line in the sand, just like Albert did. Penge warned Lehzen to step off, but she was confident that Victoria’s love would protect her from Albert’s increasing annoyance. I don’t doubt that Lehzen was sincere in all that she said or that Victoria loved her, but she overplayed her hand when she decided to ignore what the child’s father wanted. And then there was that crack about Albert not respecting Victoria’s authority. That was said mainly to create doubt in Victoria.  That was trying to undermine his authority. Goodbye, Lehzen. Have fun in Germany. 

I will miss Peele.  I liked him.  It’s too bad Drummond was killed, but I was never a fan of his and Alfred’s storyline, so I’m glad that’s done. Ernst in the bath was fun, but the return of his syphilis rash should put a nail in the Ernst/Harriet coffin for good. Did someone give Penge a razor? I swear he looked almost presentable this week.

Nancy and Francatelli finally get a thumbs up from me.  Their scenes were not bad at all. 

Edited by taurusrose · Reason: clarification
  • Like 19

Share this post


Link to post
Quote

It was nice to see the Duchess supporting Lord Alfred and helping him keep it together when she told him about Drummond.

I think this was seeing the Victorian era through a 21st century lens.  Up until 1982 "buggery" was punishable by death, "gross indecency" earned you a prison sentence and it wasn't until 1967 that sex between men was decriminalized.  I really cannot see an elderly woman of her status, who clutched her pearls over other minor breaches in etiquette, being quite so supportive and understanding.

  • Like 18

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

I think you were meaning antipyretics. Antiemetics are used to combat nausea and vomiting. Which at that time they had neither one. Well maybe only herbal remedies. How scary especially when a child is sick.

Thank you for the correction. I was so tired last night and am ashamed of myself for th mistake. I know better. 

I think they used to use something like mustard packs on the chest, which would be more preferable than the age when they used bleeding! Medicine has come a long way. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Lehzen forgot her place.

She had elevated status in the Household which she exploited until she pushed it too far and tried to power play Albert.

If Lehzen had played it smart she could have stayed with Victoria overseeing the nursery staff and all the many future princesses and princes but her ego was her downfall...

Albert's kids...Albert should have more of a say than Lehzen

  • Like 19

Share this post


Link to post

I heard last night next week's episode is the season finale.  Does anyone know when the third season will start?  I hope we don't have to wait months to find out what happens next!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, my3sons said:

I heard last night next week's episode is the season finale.  Does anyone know when the third season will start?  I hope we don't have to wait months to find out what happens next!

Next week is the Christmas special . . . after that, we have to wait months.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Why so few episodes? I’ve moved things and changed my schedule to view this series and now there’s only one left?Where am I going to get my costuming and horse porn? As Lehzen left in the carriage did anyone else note the beautiful long fetlock hair on the carriage horse? 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post

What happens next? Go to Wikipedia and read the article there. Look at the ‘cultural depictions’ section and then go to Netflix and stream some movies on her, of which there are lots, or digitized old books (you know, the ones you can get for free), as they’d started writing biographies of Albert soon after he died. Same with other characters in the series, from her kids, to her Prime Ministers, to her top servants etcetera and so forth. 

If you don’t want “spoilers” there are several films called ‘young victoria’ or something like that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Oh my God, they killed Drummond! You bastards!

I was on Albert's side too. Lehzen was always in Victoria's ear about how Albert didn't respect her authority. 

Quote

Why so few episodes?

Typical for shows made in the UK. 6-8 episodes a season.

  • Like 15

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, voiceover said:

Thanks, Penge, for giving the classy sendoff.

What was the Madeira a throwback to? I know it meant something, but I can't remember. I loved how it brought a genuine smile to Lehzen's face. We rarely saw her do anything but scowl or keep a scrupulously neutral face.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

Thank you for the correction. I was so tired last night and am ashamed of myself for th mistake. I know better. 

I think they used to use something like mustard packs on the chest, which would be more preferable than the age when they used bleeding! Medicine has come a long way. 

Lehzen was right about the fresh air. You don't get a cold by being cold. Considering they recently discovered the unpleasantness of raw sewage in the castle (I don't know how much Albert knew about germs)  one would think open windows should have been encouraged.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I had to laugh when Uncle Leopold told Albert maybe it wasn't the best idea to tell him Leopold might be his father. Way to try to put the toothpaste back in the tube, Leopold.

 

From now on, Uncle Leopold shall be called "Lord Big Mouth" for his ability to say stupid stuff that accomplished nothing except making things worse. Or possibly, with his "maybe this was a bad idea...", he can be the Illustrious Duke of No Freaking Shit". 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

As Lehzen left in the carriage did anyone else note the beautiful long fetlock hair on the carriage horse? 

Yes!

I took a minute break from the Olympics and caught the goodbye between Lehzen and Penge. (and only that)  Does anyone know what breed of horse that is?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, elle said:

Yes!

I took a minute break from the Olympics and caught the goodbye between Lehzen and Penge. (and only that)  Does anyone know what breed of horse that is?

I’d have to see it again to tell you. My guess would be a Shire. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Lehzen forgot her place.

That's it in a nutshell.  During that time period, place mattered, and not only was Lehzen trying to usurp Albert's place as Little Vicky's father, he was also Prince Consort of the flipping nation!  This reminded me very much of when Albert told Ernst to go home to Coburg because he was being very obvious about messing around with Harriet.  There was no doubt then that Albert was using his authority, and I have no problem with him doing the same here as well.  Lehzen forgot who she was, where she was, and with whom she was clashing.  As the husband of the monarch, Lehzen was expected to give Albert a certain amount of deference and respect.  If she didn't want to do that anymore, then she was free to leave, but Albert could not let such insubordination stand unchallenged.

  • Like 24

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, elle said:

Yes!

I took a minute break from the Olympics and caught the goodbye between Lehzen and Penge. (and only that)  Does anyone know what breed of horse that is?

It looked like a Friesian to me. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Quote

Lehzen ran over all the staff as long as she could because of her relationship with Victoria

Right. I remember her sucking up to Victoria with her condescending remark about Cleary, "I was not aware she was Catholic when I hired her". That plus the fact she was put in charge of finding out who had leaked it to the press that there had been an intruder in the palace makes me think she was some kind of overseer of the staff as well as Penge? Can anyone clarify?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I think they used to use something like mustard packs on the chest, which would be more preferable than the age when they used bleeding! Medicine has come a long way. 

I was wondering why they didn't use a mustard plaster.  They've been used for centuries for chest congestion, among other things.  My Grandmother used to use them on me.  Instead, a bunch of adults crammed into the room and hung out around Vicky's bed wringing their hands.

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

What was the Madeira a throwback to? I know it meant something, but I can't remember. I loved how it brought a genuine smile to Lehzen's face. We rarely saw her do anything but scowl or keep a scrupulously neutral face.

I think that was one of the things that was found out to be "over ordered" when Albert audited the household's books.  Penge was ripping off the Queen by opening a bottle and, instead of recorking it and using any leftovers later, he was swilling it himself.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I was wondering why they didn't use a mustard plaster.  They've been used for centuries for chest congestion, among other things.  My Grandmother used to use them on me.  Instead, a bunch of adults crammed into the room and hung out around Vicky's bed wringing their hands.

In some ways, the rich were worse off than ordinary people, who could easily use folk remedies like mustard plaster. They had to use doctors who in that era were little better, and in many cases probably worse, than medieval quacks. (Mercury vapors for syphilis? Poor Ernst.) Actually, I was thinking how lucky V & A were that all of their 9 children lived to adulthood. Before modern times, it wasn't unusual for families to have only a few children survive the wide range of childhood diseases and injuries. We take our modern medicines and vaccinations for granted, but there's a lot of stuff out there that can kill you, especially if you're very young, or old.

Edited by Kathira
  • Like 13

Share this post


Link to post

A number of years ago I read that the prudery we associate with the Victorian era was due more to Albert than Victoria.  The courts of George IV and William IV were rather wild places.  Also, Victoria did not believe that there were such things as female homosexuals so, while male homosexuality could result in imprisonment or death, women were free of possible punishment. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Kathira said:

We take our modern medicines and vaccinations for granted, but there's a lot of stuff out there that can kill you, especially if you're very young, or old.

OT: I think, after reading that, now about this years flu. How so many children have died from it. Yes! We have some of the best medicines ever and thank goodness that vaccines are eradicating some diseases. How antibiotics are sometimes no longer effective and how there is very little that can be done for a virus. We are headed back to an age where we are going to have to look for alternatives which is very scary IMHO. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

Since there doesn't seem to be any historical information about Drummond being gay, and it seems he was actually shot before the vote on the Corn Laws, this looks like a case of inventing a gay "rise and demise" story just for drama and advancing the plot. Drummond's death led smoothly to: Peel's quiet exit stage left, a crack in the icy mien of the Duchesse of Buccleuch (sp) and a place for us and several of the characters to spill the tears readied for the fevered death of the young princess. 

So for the St. Valentine's episode, Cupid was stopped mid-flight at least twice (I am also counting the reappearance of the Rash), while the Angel of Death (thanks, Penge) seems sated for now. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Kathira said:

[the rich] had to use doctors who in that era were little better, and in many cases probably worse, than medieval quacks.

I read somewhere that before about 1910, a doctor was more likely to harm you than help you.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Prince Albert reminds me of the real-life Prince Consort of Denmark who recently died.  He was so embittered about the fact that he was never named as King while his wife is (she is still living, so present tense) Queen, that he refused to be buried next to her.  He told her this and she has honored it.  I think Albert really resents that he is Prince to Victoria's Queen.  I understand that this is fictionalized, but he really insulted her in this episode when he critiqued her as spoiled, never having been told no, etc.  I haven't liked his characterization this entire season, but this episode really increased my dislike for him.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

I can buy that Miss Coke would have sympathy for Lord Alfred but not that old battle ax played by Diana Rigg, she hasn't exactly been portrayed as a fountain of tolerance.

Edited by magdalene
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Kathira said:

In some ways, the rich were worse off than ordinary people, who could easily use folk remedies like mustard plaster. They had to use doctors who in that era were little better, and in many cases probably worse, than medieval quacks. (Mercury vapors for syphilis? Poor Ernst.) Actually, I was thinking how lucky V & A were that all of their 9 children lived to adulthood. Before modern times, it wasn't unusual for families to have only a few children survive the wide range of childhood diseases and injuries. We take our modern medicines and vaccinations for granted, but there's a lot of stuff out there that can kill you, especially if you're very young, or old.

 

If you ever get to London, visit St. Thomas' Operating Theatre.  Some of the instruments on display are horrifying.

I think that Albert didn't approve of the doctor, who was chosen by Lehtzen.  IIRC, he thought that doctor was a quack and he originally misdiagnosed Vicky, leading to her illness becoming more severe.

Edited by CarpeDiem54
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×