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S07.E03: The Garden of Forking Paths


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Just now, KingOfHearts said:

Regina could just walk up and delete her in a matter of seconds. We've gone from immortal Greek gods to immortal to clones to the mother of all dark magic to... a greedy widow who needs an instruction manual on wands. 

Apparently, you don't even need an instruction manual. 

The whole resistance plan was really dumb too.  Without knowing the size of the king's forces or who the king/queen actually are, it's hard to take this plot seriously.

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How is a grown Henry relating to Regina? How is she dealing with a suddenly (to her) grown son?

I do think this sets up a strange dynamic between them in Seattle.  Obviously, neither knows they are mother and son, and it does feel like they have inappropriate chemistry at times.    

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But I think Lucy can get better with time.  She's a kid, and this must be the young actress's first job, so I'm going to give her a season or two (if this show gets another season after this one) to get better.

At least according to her IMDB page, she's actually pretty accomplished for her age.  She's had roles in a number of different series. 

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Apparently, you don't even need an instruction manual. 

Yes, I wish they gave us a better idea of Lady Tremaine's powers.  Even if the fairy wand has given her access to a lot of power, it doesn't seem plausible that someone who has had magic for decades, like Regina, couldn't easily overwhelm her.

Edited by txhorns79
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At least according to her IMDB page, she's actually pretty accomplished for her age.  She's had roles in a number of different series. 

I think she was better in this episode, but a lot of it is the writing and part of it is maybe the role just doesn't fit.  Lucy as a character exudes a lot of confidence right off the bat.  She's not the sad little boy in Season 1 who we felt sorry for since he had lived 10 years in a town that didn't age with a stepmother who didn't love him.  Young Henry's bravado was clearly a front, a lot of the time.  When Archie asked him why he believed in the fairy tale theory in "That Still Small Voice", Henry replied, "Because this can't be all there is."  Knowing his background, that was incredibly sad.  When Henry went into the mine, it was driven by desperation and years of pent-up frustration.  With Lucy and Adult Henry, they were basically having a sassy conversation.

And then there is the chemistry.  Emma and Henry really clicked in Season 1 from the first scene.  That relationship was interesting from both angles.  Emma was dealing with seeing/talking to the son she gave up years ago.  In contrast, Adult Henry is dealing with some random lady's daughter who seems to believe in nonsense.  Despite trying their best, Lucy and Adult Henry hasn't bonded, because there is nothing solid to build the relationship around.  Lucy doesn't have chemistry with Jacinda either, but that pretty much applies to everyone.  If you can't feel the trueness of the character bonds through the chemistry, a viewer can't help but be disengaged with what's happening, which is how I felt through much of this episode.   

If Season 1 was written like these three episodes, in the flashbacks, we would have seen Snow on the verge of killing someone to ensure the baby's safety and in the present-day, we would have seen Mary Margaret agree to kick Emma out as a roommate because Regina offers MM a nice house.  What were the Writers thinking?  Of course these types of actions would not endear a character to the audience.

Edited by Camera One
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18 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I'm still having a hard time understanding the actress's dialogue too. I wish she would enunciate better.

dammit... thank you! I thought this was just me. 

9 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Unfortunately, she also looks about the same age as his mother when the lighting isn't just right

So true.

Because the story isn't working right now it is easy for  to get distracted by the superficial elements. I hope this reboot gets better.

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With Lucy and Adult Henry, they were basically having a sassy conversation.

We haven't seen Lucy talk about her home life. Her staying with Victoria is supposed to be this horrible thing, but we have no idea how she's being treated. However, we do know that Jacinda sacrificed Lucy's financial support out of selfish pride and day drinks. 

I have a hard time believing Murderella is really Henry's wife/lover and Lucy is his daughter. Probably because we haven't seen any proof.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Lucy said to Henry in this episode, "Then tell me what happened when you went to the cemetery where you said your wife and daughter were buried.  The cemetery you said you never went to."

Henry didn't say he never went to the cemetery in the first episode.  Such sloppiness.

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I just watched the episode earlier tonight, but I haven't read through the comments, so - knowing this board, probably a lot of it is redundant. :)

  • I know we've talked about the aging with Regina, Rumple, and Whook, but with tonight's flashback, I'm amazed that Henry and Failurella haven't aged in the 10+ years since they managed to get married and have Lucy.  I guess Lucy was also abducted by a dark fairy and taken to the rapid aging realm so her parents could stay young and attractive.  
  • What the heck is with Whook flirting with Tiana?  On the one hand, I kind of dig them as a couple since it's not Killian.  On the other hand, he was all about breaking the curse to get his daughter back last episode, and now, in the flashback which was a few days later at most?, he's flirty with Tiana and it's 'daughter?  What daughter?'  I guess he's enjoying having that deaged body again.  But it's not making me like the character much at all.
  • Really don't care about Rumple any more.
  • Failurella is still annoying - both in the past and now.  Oh, and this time she kicked a guard who fell and hit the back of his head on a rock, just for doing his job.  I'm sure he's not dead either.  
  • But the biggest WTF is why on earth is the Prince working with Lady Tremaine and letting her call the shots and giving her all the magic out of his vault.  I guess you can store magic now also - not just magical artifacts.  

This is a mess.  

I was hoping the well was deeper when Lucy jumped in.  

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10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:
  • But the biggest WTF is why on earth is the Prince working with Lady Tremaine and letting her call the shots and giving her all the magic out of his vault.  I guess you can store magic now also - not just magical artifacts.  

And Lady Tremaine is in collusion with this "royal family", but it was such a great idea to murder the invisible King's son inside the palace during a ball when anyone could have walked in.  Why didn't Resistance Leader accuse Lady Tremaine of knifing the Prince, or at least spread rumors of it?  That could have broken up or at least weakened this powerful alliance.

Did Cinders ever tell her BFF Tiana that she almost killed that old cobbler?

Edited by Camera One
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On 10/20/2017 at 9:23 PM, CCTC said:

I actually thought the ?witch? at the end and some of the Anastasia stuff was genuinely creepy, but it was not enough.

I forgot about the witch.  I like the witch.  I'm also afraid she might end up being Whook's daughter, but she looked too old, tbh, so I hope she's not.  Plus, I want her to break free and kick everyone's ass!  #TeamWitch!

7 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

 She already has the glass slippers somehow by the time she meets Adult Henry -

Oh you reminded me of something else.  Why didn't Lucy give Jacinderella the piece of the glass slipper to see if it would maybe jog her memories and she'd remember being Murderella?  (Though, not so sure that would be a good thing at this point.)  What's with the line "she's becoming the hero she was meant to be" (or something to that effect.)  That was ridiculous.  I thought Lucy wanted to break the curse?  I guess not.

35 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Did Cinders ever tell her BFF Tiana that she almost killed that old cobbler?

You mean like Regina told her bff Emma that she killed Graham?

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11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Apparently, you don't even need an instruction manual. 

The whole resistance plan was really dumb too.  Without knowing the size of the king's forces or who the king/queen actually are, it's hard to take this plot seriously.

And yet Fiona did.

"I'm the leader of the resistance that was formed against your stepmother and the royal family" was clunky dialogue, like Lucy's exposition in the premiere.

6 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh you reminded me of something else.  Why didn't Lucy give Jacinderella the piece of the glass slipper to see if it would maybe jog her memories and she'd remember being Murderella?  (Though, not so sure that would be a good thing at this point.)  What's with the line "she's becoming the hero she was meant to be" (or something to that effect.)  That was ridiculous.  I thought Lucy wanted to break the curse?  I guess not.

You mean like Regina told her bff Emma that she killed Graham?

Weak, weak logic, that. It's not like there's a law she can't show it to Jacinda and then give it to Henry.

I'll never not be bitter about Graham but they'll never, ever address it.

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9 hours ago, Watt said:

I don't get why Henry didn't know where his wife and daughter were buried. Did they not have a funeral? Whoever cast this curse sucks at creating a backstory apparently.

Well, the curse created false memories, but it could only create false graves in Hyperion Heights. So, basically, Tremaine screwed up with having Henry's fake family killed and the graves ending up in a place he's never been before. 

You know what twist I'd love? If it turns out that Murderella had sex with some other dude and that's Lucy's real father, not Henry. There's still no proof of Henry being Lucy's father, besides her telling us that's the case and Henry/Murderella flirting up a storm in the flashbacks.

But, I unfortunately think that we're supposed to believe that Murderella, Henry, and Lucy were all a happy family before the curse was cast, which means the curse was recently enough where Lucy has memories of living with Henry...though why couldn't the curse give Lucy false memories then? Because...what, she's too pure to have cursed memories? Even though Emma and Henry have both been cursed, Henry even as a child a couple of times! It makes zero sense! At least with Henry and Emma, there wasn't any confusion there. Both grew up long after the curse was cast, outside of it. Emma remembers giving birth to Henry and giving him up. Henry didn't have curse memories, so his head was clear and his eyes were open as he grew up in a town that never grew up. 

They're hiding the vital information surrounding the curse and it's going to take too long for me to give a shit by the time the reveal that time period. 

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33 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

You know what twist I'd love? If it turns out that Murderella had sex with some other dude and that's Lucy's real father, not Henry. There's still no proof of Henry being Lucy's father, besides her telling us that's the case and Henry/Murderella flirting up a storm in the flashbacks.

She doesn't act like he's her father in the present day parts either.  Since Henry and the gang look the same age as they did in the flashback to before Lucy was born, I don't see how she could ben be Murderella's daughter.

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2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, the curse created false memories, but it could only create false graves in Hyperion Heights. So, basically, Tremaine screwed up with having Henry's fake family killed and the graves ending up in a place he's never been before. 

But the curse created the memories of the graveyard, it still makes no sense he'd believe they were somewhere else. The curse should have given the memory of the graveyard where the fake graves are.

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1 hour ago, legendinmyownmind said:

Since Henry and the gang look the same age as they did in the flashback to before Lucy was born, I don't see how she could ben be Murderella's daughter.

Someone in the spoiler thread suggested Lucy was adopted by Henry and Murderella. That would be an interesting twist. (We speculated if she was Anastasia, but that's been ruled out by the episode). Yeah--the lack of ageing by any of the characters is bothering me. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

You know what twist I'd love? If it turns out that Murderella had sex with some other dude and that's Lucy's real father, not Henry. There's still no proof of Henry being Lucy's father, besides her telling us that's the case and Henry/Murderella flirting up a storm in the flashbacks.

I know citing A&E as reliable source is a little dubious, but I don't think that would work with their comment that "I think you can see a lot of her grandma, Snow, in her".

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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45 minutes ago, daxx said:

But the curse created the memories of the graveyard, it still makes no sense he'd believe they were somewhere else. The curse should have given the memory of the graveyard where the fake graves are.

Yeah. If they were there all along, it was a weak twist. If they just popped up now, that doesn't make sense, because good things like the hyacinths growing should happen when people stand up to Victoria, not strengthenings of the Curse. Perhaps Victoria had them made and put in? That would be a throwback to Season 1, when plot points weren't always immediately revealed and some sense of mystery existed (i.e. we discovered Regina had been in Emma's apartment with her skeleton keys, but not in the episode it happened in; and it took a while before we discovered the blood test results on the buried heart were faked and Kathryn was alive).

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Wasn't one of the reasons Jacinda lost custody of Lucy was because Lucy ran off to meet a strange man? Now Lucy is jumping into holes at construction sites with that same strange man. Sounds like the step-mom needs to up her parenting game too. And somebody call OSHA too - that building site is not secure with strangers jumping down the holes.

Speaking of odd job sites - the control room for Vicky's building. Either that place never needs maintenance or the people who do the maintenance are the least curious people in the world.

New Maintenance Guy: So, every time we have to fix something, we have to get the boss lady to use her fingerprint to let us onto the maintenance floor? What if she's on holdays? Woah!Who's the chick with the mop hair chained up over there?

Old Maintenance Guy: I don't ask questions. The last place I worked was even weirder. One day, I came in and the new unelected Mayor was trying to fix the power grid while the old lady who ran the town cafe and the grumpy school janitor were yelling at her about the Enchanted Forrest or something. I just turned around and left town....after the ice ring surrounding the town finally melted.

New Maintenance Guy: So, I suppose I shouldn't ask any questions about the coffin either?

Jacinda is just not working as a character and the actress is just awful. I wish Tiana was the new central character. 

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6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But, I unfortunately think that we're supposed to believe that Murderella, Henry, and Lucy were all a happy family before the curse was cast, which means the curse was recently enough where Lucy has memories of living with Henry...though why couldn't the curse give Lucy false memories then? Because...what, she's too pure to have cursed memories? Even though Emma and Henry have both been cursed, Henry even as a child a couple of times! It makes zero sense! At least with Henry and Emma, there wasn't any confusion there. Both grew up long after the curse was cast, outside of it. Emma remembers giving birth to Henry and giving him up. Henry didn't have curse memories, so his head was clear and his eyes were open as he grew up in a town that never grew up. 

Weren't there scenes in last year's season finale of Lucy and Henry living in some kind of undeveloped looking other realm and being attacked? I remember the scene where Henry gave Lucy the book and told her to protect it. Cinderella was nowhere around in them, so maybe she was supposed to have been kidnapped before they were all cursed?

In the original curse no one aged for 28 years, so in this new curse everyone could have been living for years in Hyperion Heights without knowing it. So Lucy and Henry and Cinderella could have been a happy family until the curse. Then were cursed for awhile and then recently Lucy was somehow triggered to remember the past.

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4 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Weren't there scenes in last year's season finale of Lucy and Henry living in some kind of undeveloped looking other realm and being attacked? I remember the scene where Henry gave Lucy the book and told her to protect it. Cinderella was nowhere around in them, so maybe she was supposed to have been kidnapped before they were all cursed?

Yes, there was.

HENRY: Wake up, honey.  Wake up.
LUCY: What is it, Father?
HENRY: It's time.  They found us. Don't be frightened.  It'll be all right.

....
HENRY: You have to make sure it stays safe.  You have it, don't you?
LUCY: Of course.  It never leaves my side.
HENRY: Oh, good.  It may be the realm's only hope of defeating the darkness.
... You need to share these stories.
LUCY: But who will believe them?
HENRY: Someday someone will.
There is pounding at the door.
LUCY: Daddy! Don't worry about me.   You need to go! 

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2 hours ago, millahnna said:

Anyone else here also watch The Good Place? Because I'm really struggling with the "Forking" in the episode title in the most hilarious way.

I don't even watch it, but I'm having the same issue! I do a kind of mental double-take whenever I visit the forum.

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1 hour ago, Camera One said:

HENRY: Wake up, honey.  Wake up.
LUCY: What is it, Father?
HENRY: It's time.  They found us. Don't be frightened.  It'll be all right.

....
HENRY: You have to make sure it stays safe.  You have it, don't you?
LUCY: Of course.  It never leaves my side.
HENRY: Oh, good.  It may be the realm's only hope of defeating the darkness.
... You need to share these stories.
LUCY: But who will believe them?
HENRY: Someday someone will.
There is pounding at the door.
LUCY: Daddy! Don't worry about me.   You need to go! 

Later Tiger Lily says:

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You were right to follow his instructions. Because you did, the book is safe. We need to take it to your mother now. She'll be waiting. 

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2 hours ago, millahnna said:

Anyone else here also watch The Good Place? Because I'm really struggling with the "Forking" in the episode title in the most hilarious way.

Same! I'm snort-laughing in my head every time I read the title.

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This episode's title is a reference to a story about alternate timelines, endings, and possibilities. I thought we would be exploring the multiverse and getting some answers on how it all works. But nope - it's just about Lucy's pathetic community garden.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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18 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I thought it was a reference to what it would feel like if someone stabbed us with a fork.

That would have been a more stimulating experience than the episode, at least!

I think it was a big mistake to not have at least one scene of WHook looking for his daughter. The writers have almost completely given up on maintaining a sense of continuity it seems like. It's like each episode is completely disconnected from the rest. This has been a huge problem since S6.

His flirty looks at Tiana didn't help. I get that that WHook is not Killian prime, but one episode after CS exited the Show is not the one to have WHook ogling someone. 

I also rolled my eyes at St.Roni calling herself a queen. haha Very meta. 

Edited by Rumsy4
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2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think it was a big mistake to not have at least one scene of WHook looking for his daughter. The writers have almost completely given up on maintaining a sense of continuity it seems like. It's likr each episode is completely disconnected from the rest. Thid has been a huge problem since S6.

If someone missed last week (Episode 2), they would not know that this isn't Real Hook. 

That's how vague these characters have become.

Tiana the Resistance Leader could have been substituted with any Disney character.

Edited by Camera One
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I also rolled my eyes at St.Roni calling herself a queen. haha Very meta. 

Who says "I'm a regular queen"? The writers couldn't come up with something a little more subtle? How about something tasteful like, "I love a man who hunts his prey." *snicker*

Edited by KingOfHearts
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20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Tiana the Resistance Leader could have been substituted with any Disney character.

She should meet up with the Count of Monte Cristo--the man filled with revenge...

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Who says "I'm a regular queen"?

None of the characters talk or behave like normal human beings. It's all so obviously fake. Sigh...

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Lady Tremaine is pretty stupid, thinking Cinderella would rip out Henry's heart.  She could easily have done it herself, if she cared about resurrecting Anastasia *that* much.  Henry isn't the brightest bulb in the box and he could be easily tricked into coming to the Manor to save Cinders.  Tremaine could even have left a fake note from Cinders and Henry would have followed.  She could have taken his heart, resurrected Anastasia, show over.

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1 hour ago, Camera One said:

If someone missed last week (Episode 2), they would not know that this isn't Real Hook. 

That's one of the weaknesses of the centric structure. This was the Ella centric, so Hook's relegated to the background with maybe two lines in all the flashbacks, even if there really needed to be some kind of follow up to the previous episode. Henry and Regina are strangers to WHook, and vice versa. He should be interacting differently with them than you'd expect Real Hook to act. I presume he might have the same kind of loyalty to Henry Real Hook had at the end of season 2 and in 3A because he's Milah's grandson and Bae's son, but they don't know each other. I feel like we should have had some time, even just a scene, to establish how that trio interacts and to give us a better look at what this Hook is like. Of course, it doesn't help that we don't really know what Real Hook's relationship with Henry is. They hugged like old friends, but did Henry ever consider him to be a dad? That affects the way we view the "not quite" answer about whether WHook is Henry's father. Was that meant to mean that Hook isn't quite Henry's father, though how would WHook know how that relationship works, or did he mean that Real Hook is Henry's dad (step, but the closest thing Henry has come to really having a father in his life on an ongoing basis), but WHook isn't quite the same person?

Meanwhile, figuring how the parent/child relationship works when the child becomes an adult is a transition. How's that working with Henry and Regina? They'd have a lot of catching up to do.

But because this was Ella's centric, we didn't see the natural progression of events following from the rather drastic changes in all their lives in the previous episode. We didn't even see how Regina and Hook came up with new clothes. Did they go back to the Jolly Roger and get his old pirate gear out of a trunk, and is she wearing Milah's old clothes? They seem to be in the color family Milah wore, and definitely weren't "Regina" clothes. 

And you know the episode is lackluster when Hook and Regina going back to the Jolly Roger to change clothes, him getting to wear his old pirate clothes again now that he's back in a slim, young body and her having to make do with things he has on the ship while they're all getting caught up or geting to know each other, sounds like a more interesting story than what we got.

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12 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's one of the weaknesses of the centric structure. This was the Ella centric, so Hook's relegated to the background with maybe two lines in all the flashbacks, even if there really needed to be some kind of follow up to the previous episode. Henry and Regina are strangers to WHook, and vice versa. He should be interacting differently with them than you'd expect Real Hook to act. 

Meanwhile, figuring how the parent/child relationship works when the child becomes an adult is a transition. How's that working with Henry and Regina? They'd have a lot of catching up to do.

Now that you mention it, after watching last week's episode (and before seeing the promo pictures of Henry/Whook/Regina meeting Ella/Tiana), I thought we would get to see an adventure with the three of them to see how they would interact.  They even skipped over Regina getting her magic back.  Henry finding Cinderella again was almost anti-climatic.  And for what?  The lacklustre plotline we got in this episode?  

The parallel between the flashback and the present-day was also very weak, other than "Will Cinders do the right thing?"  In the past, she wasn't a leader of the people at all.  In fact, she even tried to kill one of them.  Were the other residents convinced by Jacinda?  It is unclear how Henry's presence is affecting the Cursed people since he's not really doing anything active.  What exactly is motivating Jacinda to fight back?  Isn't it Lady Tremaine herself?  By taking Lucy away, or digging up the garden, she's causing her own problems.  Otherwise, Jacinda would be totally complacent, no?  Was the coffin buried under the community garden?  Why dig it up now?

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And who are these fairytale characters Victoria's supposedly trying to make move out? So far she doesn't seem to be trying to make any of the ones we know move out. Except maybe Henry, but Lucy talked like it was something already happening before he got involved. Roni was going to sell her bar, but that's not necessarily the same thing.

If Wish Hook is real, do we mourn Wish Belle's death by starvation that was part of the Wish Realm's pre-written history now? I thought that was a horrible and callous thing for the story to do to Belle, and my consolation was that it wasn't real. Did her soul show up in Olympus when the Wish Realm was created?

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4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

And who are these fairytale characters Victoria's supposedly trying to make move out? So far she doesn't seem to be trying to make any of the ones we know move out. Except maybe Henry, but Lucy talked like it was something already happening before he got involved. Roni was going to sell her bar, but that's not necessarily the same thing.

Maybe we will find out later, but the problem with that is, it makes her actions completely incomprehensible.  If Victoria remembers everything and she's trying to resurrect her dead daughter, then why is she bothering to force people to move out of Hyperion Heights?  Why would she be bothering to buy out Roni's bar?  Why hadn't she done something to get Henry as far away from Seattle as possible, so Lucy would never have been able to contact him?  Why not make Jacinda live at her own mansion, to keep an eye on her?  

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They need to get rid of Tiana because every time she's on screen all I can think about is how depressing it is that she's not the main character.  

It's not even fun critiquing the rest of the show. 

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54 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Maybe we will find out later, but the problem with that is, it makes her actions completely incomprehensible.  If Victoria remembers everything and she's trying to resurrect her dead daughter, then why is she bothering to force people to move out of Hyperion Heights?  Why would she be bothering to buy out Roni's bar?  Why hadn't she done something to get Henry as far away from Seattle as possible, so Lucy would never have been able to contact him?  Why not make Jacinda live at her own mansion, to keep an eye on her?  

Exactly. We hear one thing, see another, have little idea how it all fits together.

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Is it weird that I keep wondering where Cinders is from that she has such a think accent? No one else does in this neck of the woods that we`ve seen, did she and her father move here? I can understand her just fine, I just find it weird that her accent is so different than anyone elses without any explanation. Granted, its not a new thing for the show (one small village in the EH usually have accents ranging across the UK, US, Canada, and Australia) but its just another world building possibility that they clearly dont care about. This is not how accents work!

23 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You mean like Regina told her bff Emma that she killed Graham?

Still so bitter about the fact that NO ONE ever learned the truth about his death. Not only is it a big huge hole in Regina's redemption arc, but its such an obvious loss in potential drama. Just imagine if, several seasons in, the truth about Grahams death comes out, and Emma has to deal with the fact that her bff Regina killed a man she cared about in cold blood. The redemption still happened, but what does that mean now? Does Emma still forgive Regina, seeing up close and personal what she is capable of? How does Regina justify not only the abuse and murder, but lying about it, even after her redemption? There is so much potential there, for real growth for the characters, and we never got it! Its basically what they seemed to be trying for with the pointless " Hook killed Charmings father" subplot, only it would have made sense and had real stakes. Now, this just hangs over Regina's head, and whenever she goes on about how much shes changed, I just think "yeah, tell that to the guy you raped, murdered, and whos death you are still covering up to this day" and variations. 

Edited by tennisgurl
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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Still so bitter about the fact that NO ONE ever learned the truth about his death. Not only is it a big huge hole in Regina's redemption arc, but its such an obvious loss in potential drama. Just imagine if, several seasons in, the truth about Grahams death comes out, and Emma has to deal with the fact that her bff Regina killed a man she cared about in cold blood. The redemption still happened, but what does that mean now? Does Emma still forgive Regina, seeing up close and personal what she is capable of? How does Regina justify not only the abuse and murder, but lying about it, even after her redemption? There is so much potential there, for real growth for the characters, and we never got it! Its basically what they seemed to be trying for with the pointless " Hook killed Charmings father" subplot, only it would have made sense and had real stakes. Now, this just hangs over Regina's head, and whenever she goes on about how much shes changed, I just think "yeah, tell that to the guy you raped, murdered, and whos death you are still covering up to this day" and variations. 

A month or two ago I got into an argument with a user on Spoiler TV who insisted that Regina not specifically telling Emma she killed Graham was somehow not the same as covering it up, and that Regina's apologies for her past sins somehow included Graham's death even if she didn't mention it specifically ('you can't expect her to go over every single thing she did', etc.)

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18 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

A month or two ago I got into an argument with a user on Spoiler TV who insisted that Regina not specifically telling Emma she killed Graham was somehow not the same as covering it up, and that Regina's apologies for her past sins somehow included Graham's death even if she didn't mention it specifically ('you can't expect her to go over every single thing she did', etc.)

That reasoning makes no sense to me. A lie of omission is still a lie. Maybe she cant mention every single evil thing shes done (and it doesn't look great for any character who has done SO MUCH evil that they literally cant be bothered to mention them all) but she knows that Graham meant something to Emma, and that he saved both Snow and Charming, so the right thing to do is be honest about how he died. This isn't some vague thing she did years ago, she did this after she had met Emma, and it was to a person they knew. Emma saw him die! She had opportunities to bring it up and confess, and she never has. Even if she isn't buying people off or shredding evidence, she is still hiding the truth for selfish reasons. It is totally covering it up. 

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I find it interesting that they are trumpeting the BFF friendship between Cinders and Tiana (comparing it to Snow and Red), but Cinderella doesn't confide in Tiana about her secret - she tells Regina.  Since Tiana claims to be the leader of the resistance, one would assume she was very close to that old man.  So it would be a cover-up as well if Cinders never admitted that to her, as her BFF.  

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10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

('you can't expect her to go over every single thing she did', etc.)

Well, you can't, really, because that would be about four seasons of a show that consists of nothing but the Evil Queen rattling off a list of sins. Which would actually be more interesting than this. Hell, if they threw in flashbacks, I'd watch it!

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Well, finally watched the episode... I used to watch in real time or soon as I could. Now, I watch it when I am bored or maybe out of loyalty... we will see how long the loyalty will last.

Oh the acting....  Cinderella- you suck. I can not understand most of what you are saying. You do not make me care about anything you do or say. I know they are trying to make her the new Snow, but each episode I see, the difference between the acting, the storylines everything.... by episode 3 of the first season, I cared about Snow, about what she was going through, the people around her were interesting. She had chemistry with everyone around her. She made the fairytales believable.  But Cinderella, nope.  I hope they are seeing that this actress just isn’t cutting it. I can tolerate Lucy and even Victoria, but damn Cinderella/Jacinda, just go away. 

Tiana, on the other hand, I like. 

Hook is, well, Hook. Thank goodness. He is pretty much the only reason to watch at this point. Him and maybe Regina...It is sad when Regina is one of the best parts of the show.

Unless major changes happen, I think this is the last season for Once.  

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If Wish Hook is real, do we mourn Wish Belle's death by starvation that was part of the Wish Realm's pre-written history now?

If Wish Hook is real, does Regina feel any regret about casually killing Wish Snow and Wish Charming with a flick of her wrist just because it was convenient and she didn't think there were real?

Jacinda's actions make her hard to like and she lacks charm. Sometimes, you can still like an evil character if there is something interesting or charming about them (e.g. Regina, Rumple). I really see nothing to like in Jacinda and thinks both past and present versions of her needs to buy a clue.

I bet the old step-mother has magic, Murdella was playing with some magical device with Anastasia and accidently put a spell on Anastasia that killed her (like kids playing with their dad's gun). Hence, Lady Tremaine can do magic, but is reluctant to use it because of what happened to her beloved daughter. Murdella isn't "guilty" because it was an "accident" and she was "too young" to really know. "Everybody looks sympathetic."

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