S09.E04: Grandpa Jack

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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Jack is stunned to learn that his estranged son, Elliot has a son of his own, Skip. Moreover, Skip needs the kind of help only Will and Jack can provide. Grace and Karen behave badly with the hot new guy at work

[Annber03]

Awwwwww, that conversation between Jack and Skip towards the end. That was really touching. 

Also, hi, Jane Lynch :D!

[Primetimer]

'Oh my god, you have to.' - Will.

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[Eureka]

The Grace and Karen story was pretty bad. The Jack story, while I think not executed as well as it could have been, ended up being nice in the end. I loved when he said to Skip to picture his face. I love Jane Lynch but that camp scene was pretty bad too, IMO. How old was Jack supposed to have been when he was a donor to have a grandson as old as he was? My mom became a grandma in her late 40s but to a baby, not a preteen.

[mtlchick]

I take it this had a sudden reshoot just to throw in the paper towel gag.  Outside of that, the women side of things was pretty weak.  And pretty strange staging in this one overall. 

 

Eric is ridiculously good looking.  I need his beauty routine immediately. 

[Annber03]

8 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

I take it this had a sudden reshoot just to throw in the paper towel gag. 

I was wondering how they managed to work that in, since the episode would've been filmed some time back. 

[TheOtherOne]

Elliot, with two gay parents, turning out to be the kind of person who would send his kid to conversion therapy, is one of the most depressing things I've seen on TV in a while.

[useryikes]

"No hugging. No learning."  (Larry David)  Remember that, folks.

I had a few laughs, but I found this a bit of a weak episode.  Karen & Grace - just NO.  Debra Messing is looking more and more like Lucy.

[Amethyst]

16 minutes ago, Eureka said:

How old was Jack supposed to have been when he was a donor to have a grandson as old as he was? My mom became a grandma in her late 40s but to a baby, not a preteen.

Jack was 17 when he donated his sperm.  I think Elliot is supposed to be in his late 20's or early 30s, and Skip looks about 10.  Elliot looks more like a big brother than a father, but I think the time frame matches up.

As someone who was looking forward to Elliot's return, it was really depressing to see him and Jack so distant.  Their relationship was a real highlight of the original.  I wonder if Elliot and Bonnie (his mother) are estranged as well, since she was gay.  Assuming Elliot knows that by now.  I would have rather seen Jack and Elliot try to patch things up rather than the stuff with Skip.

Yet despite years of estrangement, everything is tied up neatly at the end; Jack and Elliot are close again, no conversion camp, and something tells me that Elliot's wife won't be seen again.  Jack's speech to Skip was quite profound, but it was really disappointing overall.  Skipped Karen and Grace's plot entirely.

[Maverick]

 Jack having a grandkid that old is mucking with timeline a bit, but Elliot would have been in his mid-teens when we last saw him regularly (which was several years before the original show ended) so he's probably close to 30 now.  It's not the most egregious thin the show has ever done.

The Grace/Karen was just a bad idea.  They should have been involved in the main plot.  Elliot hung around them almost as much as Jack so they were just as much a part of his family. 

 I think this could have been a two part episode. There could have been more at the camp, especially with Jane Lynch as the guest (which was a nice callback to having Neil Patrick Harris as in a similar role in the original).  They could have fleshed out Elliot and Jack reconciling some.  And there needed to be at least a mention of Elliot's mother, who was also gay.  There really needed to be some explanation of how this guy who grew up with gay parents (one of whom he actively sought out) in NYC became this hard core right-winger.

 A bit clunky but I enjoyed it overall, save for the Karen/Grace plot which didn't even rise to season 8 levels.  

[thejuicer]

There were some really funny lines tonight. I liked Jack's (paraphrased) "I don't belong in Texas, because I can't tell a woman what to do with her fetus". Skip was adorable.

I feel like of all the cast members Debra Messing still hasn't quite hit her stride.

[Chicken Wing]

Let's see, timeline: Jack was born in 1969 -- they said so in his 30th birthday episode in season one. I think Elliot was about 12 when he showed up in 2001, meaning Jack was about 20 when he was born. The last time we saw Elliot was in season 8 when the gang accompanied him to visit UCLA, so he was toward the end of his high school years and would be about 28, 29 now. I have no idea how old Skip is supposed to be. I feel like Elliot is too young to have a kid that old, but as long as Skip is younger than 11 -- because Elliot definitely did not have a kid when he was still in high school 11 years ago -- I guess it's not entirely outside the realm of logic. Say he married Emma in college and got pregnant right away. #overthinking

That said, I echo TheOtherOne's sentiments that Elliot sending his kid to a gay conversion camp is uber depressing. And I'm kind of offended on Michael Angarano's behalf that he didn't get applause when he appeared, but I suspect the audience may not have realized it was the same actor. Cartoonishly exaggerated Texas garb and facial hair will do that.

[jewel21]

The paper towel scene cracked me up.

I really enjoyed Jack and Skip together.

[aemom]

That camp was beyond weird. Maybe I'm just dense, but on top of everything else, the male leader was gay? However, it gave Skip and Jack the opportunity to have that lovely scene.

The stuff with Grace and Karen and the employee was rather distasteful,  especially in light of the recent news, but I did like the scenes of just the two of them together. 

[memememe76]

2 hours ago, useryikes said:

"No hugging. No learning."  (Larry David)  

Larry David can go screw himself. I loved the episode.

[madhacker]

The only thing I'm calling shenanagins on is the fact there was a conversion camp in driving distance. I'm pretty sure that those places are banned by law in the state of New York.

[giovannif7]

When they mentioned that Elliot had moved to Texas and married, I got my hopes up that his new father-in-law would be Will's former client Harlan - and, by extension, Elliot's wife would be the girl that Will and Grace took Trick-Or-Treat-ing in the building all those years ago. Alas, it was not meant to be.

Loved Jane Lynch and Andrew Rannells as the counselors, and wish NPH's character from the Welcome Back Home episode had done a quick cameo as Camp Straighten Arrow's director.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, AEMom said:

That camp was beyond weird. Maybe I'm just dense, but on top of everything else, the male leader was gay?

I believe he'd call himself an "ex-gay" and his partner would call herself an "ex-lesbian."  A lot of these conversion groups/camps are run by people for whom the conversions were "successful."  (In quotes because there have also been quite a few for whom that didn't quite pan out.)

It wasn't super funny but I did like the episode even if the ending was a bit pat. 

[Samcd]

4 hours ago, AEMom said:

That camp was beyond weird. Maybe I'm just dense, but on top of everything else, the male leader was gay? However, it gave Skip and Jack the opportunity to have that lovely scene.

The stuff with Grace and Karen and the employee was rather distasteful,  especially in light of the recent news, but I did like the scenes of just the two of them together. 

So am I the only one here that saw " But I'm a cheerleader?"  it was a movie from around 1999 in the movie the lead character was sent to a camp very much like this one . it's a funny movie in the movie the gay gone straight male leader was played by RuPaul.  

[SanDiegoInExile]

8 hours ago, Maverick said:

 ........I think this could have been a two part episode. ......

I think this is right on target.  One of the things which seems "off" about the show is that it feels like there is too much content being crammed into 21 minutes of 2017 sitcom. During the initial run, the program length wasn't really all that longer (a minute?) but the show seemed to flow better.  So far, it feels like they are racing to cover/include everything. And to create "balance" among the four leads for airtime.

I think back to how the re-boot started.  First, it was just going to be 8-10 episodes, then a 13-order, then expanded to 16 shows.  I vaguely recall some producers being quoted that they were just overwhelmed with storyline ideas and that led to more negotiations with NBC.  And then, all of a sudden, a second re-booted season of 13 episodes was ordered before the show hit the air and when only a handful of shows had been taped.  Clearly the producers mapped out some storylines/plots and sold NBC on Season Two.

I wonder if the first half dozen scripts were already done before the three season "extensions" were finalized.  That might explain why it feels rushed., especially if they only thought they had an 8-episode run.

Edited October 20, 2017 by SanDiegoInExile

[SanDiegoInExile]

5 hours ago, madhacker said:

The only thing I'm calling shenanagins on is the fact there was a conversion camp in driving distance. I'm pretty sure that those places are banned by law in the state of New York.

The NY Governor has signed Executive Orders, but apparently the legislature has not finalized a ban.   

The only thing that really doesn't make a lot of sense is why Texans would bring their child to NY for such a thing.  

Fewer than 10 states ban it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/us/nevada-conversion-therapy-ban-connecticut.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._jurisdictions_banning_conversion_therapy_for_minors

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Elliot, with two gay parents, turning out to be the kind of person who would send his kid to conversion therapy, is one of the most depressing things I've seen on TV in a while.

I would have been depressed by it if I'd actually believed that Elliot would do something like that. But I couldn't.

I'm sure there are examples out there of kids who were raised to be open-minded but came out very different. But Elliot was way too sweet and accepting for it to be plausible. If I a woman came along telling him his parents were sinners, he would have told her to get lost.

If I were Michael Angarano, once I found out what they were going to do to my character, I would have been reluctant to come back. (Depending on how much I needed the money, I suppose).

I also found the stuff with the counselors to be such a blatant rehash of the Neil Patrick Harris episode - complete with the obviously gay man and the butch lesbian awkwardly claiming to be a couple - so I didn't find it particularly funny.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Blakeston

[luna1122]

I was really upset by Elliot becoming a dad who would do that to his child, but I was very happy to see Michael Anganaro back. He's adorable. It was really sad that he and Jack were estranged, but...I've seen people I would never have imagined could be swayed in their beliefs by spouses. Elliot was clearly very young when he met his wife....people will do stupid fucking things for love. I've seen a liberal hippie mom marry a staunch ex militiary conservative and now she listens to Limbaugh and Fox News and watches those awful Hilary/Obama watching movies, and voted for Trump. I've seen stylish, makeup and clothes loving young girls who dated Muslim boys and eschewed all the glittery trappings they'd loved before...until the second they broke up with those guys and dropped the religion. (my point is not that the religion is stupid, but that changing drastically for romantic partners just to keep them is) Etc etc.  The idea that Elliot would send his kid to that awful place was deeply sad. But at least he came around at the end. I hope he breaks up with his annoying bigot wife and moves back to NYC with Skip.

I also need Andrew Rannells to become Will's new boyfriend, pronto.

[useryikes]

9 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Larry David can go screw himself. I loved the episode.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  I prefer my comedy with no lessons.  The episode had some fun mostly courtesy of Jack.  The Grace/Karen segments were cringeworthy, though.

The kid who played the grandson wasn't a great actor.  He kept glancing off to the side, almost as if he were looking for the teleprompter.

[AriAu]

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Debra Messing is looking more and more like Lucy.

with a really big tush. This was particularly true in the episode where Karen and Grace were locked in the shower-that was pure Lucy...altho now that I think about it, Karen was more the Lucy.

I was waiting for Grace to sing and was slightly disappointed since I always thought that "I believe that children are our future" was her (badly sung) song.

The look on Will's face when he said "oh...you have to" to "can I call you grandpa" tells you how much these guys are enjoying doing this show since Eric McCormack is not that good an actor.

Edited October 20, 2017 by AriAu

[ljenkins782]

11 hours ago, thejuicer said:

I feel like of all the cast members Debra Messing still hasn't quite hit her stride.

She was particularly bad in this one. I've been watching the reruns (not going past season 5/6) and the difference in her comic timing and acting overall is very striking. 

When she burst into song, it suddenly reminded me that Bobbi Adler isn't going to be making a reappearance. :( 

I thought this episode was fairly terrible overall. The Karen and Grace plot isn't even worth a mention and everything about the camp plot was off too. Elliott turning out to be that kind of person and then turning back on a dime AND managing to convince his wife, who apparently grew up in the type of environment that would think conversion camps are okay, to drop the issue? Right...

The only part of it I liked was Jack talking to Skip at the camp, even if it fundamentally depressed me. Because in real life, that kid would have stayed at that camp and been stuck in that life until he was able to leave home and I imagine it would make it worse to have a brief moment with someone like Jack and then be carted back to Texas with parents that believe in conversion camps. 

[Tony]

The camp scenes were hilarious. That male counselor made me LOL.

Great ep. Really classic Will & Grace.

[purpleyoshi]

Andrew Rannells can do no wrong in my book and I had no idea he would be in this episode so I was very happy. This was my favorite so far (though the less said about the Grace stuff, the better) I loved the sleepover pose bit, and thought the payoff was great. And I may have teared up at the very end along with Jack. 

[Mabinogia]

Was Debra Messing always that bad an actress? She was really, REALLY overdoing the facials to the point I couldn't hear her as I was so distracted by how her face was moving? Or did she just get really bad botox or something and can't feel her face?

I know that all four are in every episode, but I wish they had completely ditched the Grace/Karen storyline and just focused on Skip/Jack/Will. It's really an important story to be told. But it didn't get the time it deserved because of whatever the fuck Grace's storyline was.

I'm really wondering if it's just because the world is so different now, or if my own personal tastes have changed because I used to worship this show when it was first on, and though this feels EXACTLY like the show used to be (which may be the problem), I barely laughed this ep. Will's "Oh you must" was probably the best part of the episode for me.

Shallowly, it is interesting that Jack and Grace look so much older (or more worked on) while Will and Karen really look exactly the same as they did a decade ago.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Mabinogia

[ari333]

I'm enjoying it overall and glad it's back. 

I had seen  Karen (Megan) in other roles and she looked older. Now she looks younger. Well.... good for her.

[ljenkins782]

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Shallowly, it is interesting that Jack and Grace look so much older (or more worked on) while Will and Karen really look exactly the same as they did a decade ago.

Karen looks almost exactly the same, but I watched Megan Mullally in Why Him? recently and she looked far older (and her nose looked more like her pre-Will and Grace nose, which was very different, but now looks the same again). Does this show have spectacular makeup people or was she deliberately rough looking in that movie, I can't decide. 

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I'm really wondering if it's just because the world is so different now, or if my own personal tastes have changed because I used to worship this show when it was first on, and though this feels EXACTLY like the show used to be (which may be the problem), I barely laughed this ep. Will's "Oh you must" was probably the best part of the episode for me.

I think it was just a clunky episode. Well-intentioned but ham-fisted execution with a completely extraneous plot (Karen/Grace). 

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Was Debra Messing always that bad an actress? She was really, REALLY overdoing the facials to the point I couldn't hear her as I was so distracted by how her face was moving? Or did she just get really bad botox or something and can't feel her face?

She wasn't and on the topic of facial expressions, I think that used to be a big part of her overall performance and for whatever reason, it isn't working for her anymore. Whether it's surgical/botox or just a less elastic face in general, something isn't working. It also seems like she's struggling to control her expressions a lot, like in the elevator scene last week, it looked like she couldn't get through her lines without almost smiling/laughing. 

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

She was particularly bad in this one. I've been watching the reruns (not going past season 5/6) and the difference in her comic timing and acting overall is very striking. 

When she burst into song, it suddenly reminded me that Bobbi Adler isn't going to be making a reappearance. :( 

I thought this episode was fairly terrible overall. The Karen and Grace plot isn't even worth a mention and everything about the camp plot was off too. Elliott turning out to be that kind of person and then turning back on a dime AND managing to convince his wife, who apparently grew up in the type of environment that would think conversion camps are okay, to drop the issue? Right...

I think it would have worked better if Elliot had married a woman with some less than progressive views, and she decided to send her kid to the camp, without Elliot realizing what kind of place it was - and once he found out, he stepped in.

As for Debra Messing's facial expressions, they definitely didn't used to be wonky the way they are now. I guess it's hard to be a rubber-faced comedian when you don't have full range of movement in your face anymore.

[thejuicer]

Debra Messing seems to be almost frowning every time she delivers a line. There's a slowness to every word, every sentence, every action she delivers. I'm not sure if she is just resting on laurels but I miss bubbly, energetic Grace.

Eric McCormack is just so gorgeous and he plays Will so perfectly.

This is a minor nitpick, but I miss how Karen used to dress - the tailored skirt suits, stiletto heels, hair up with a hair piece, expensive scarves. Her look is just a bit different now.

[iMonrey]

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I also found the stuff with the counselors to be such a blatant rehash of the Neil Patrick Harris episode - complete with the obviously gay man and the butch lesbian awkwardly claiming to be a couple - so I didn't find it particularly funny.

Agreed. This episode didn't really work for me - for that reason, as well as the fact that once again we got an episode that split Will and Jack away from Grace and Karen, each in their own separate stories. They need to quit doing that. The show is called Will and Grace: we need more interaction between the titular characters. They need to figure out how to incorporate all four leads into the same story. 

The only part I got a kick out of was when Skip jumped up onto the sofa and landed in the "pajama pose" after they had just finished explaining that "no heterosexual male has ever sat in this position." 

[festivus]

6 hours ago, AriAu said:

The look on Will's face when he said "oh...you have to" to "can I call you grandpa" tells you how much these guys are enjoying doing this show since Eric McCormack is not that good an actor.

Couldn't disagree more with that. His acting was the only good thing about that show Perception and why I kept watching it. I do agree with those that think Debra Messing is off. I really hope she finds her groove soon because her scenes make me cringe.

 

I could not buy the fact that Elliot, the kid with two gay parents, would send his kid to conversion camp.  There were some good scenes with Skip and Jack though.

 

I'm also really missing Will and Karen interaction. Those two together are my fave, followed by Karen and Rosario. I know we can't have Rosario, so I want more Wilma and Karen dammit!

[william0102]

While I don't like that Elliot was brought back on the show like this, I can see why his character would marry someone and change his beliefs. Elliot always struck me as wanting to belong. I might be remembering wrong, but wasn't that part of why he tracked down Jack? I'm assuming at some point his mom opened up about being gay- which might have caused him to wonder again where he belonged. Also, I think he would be the type to try to please their spouse/the person they love. I thought he looked pretty uncomfortable when he first showed up at the apartment and put that down to whatever happened to drive the wedge between him and Jack. But there was something Elliot said as he was leaving or right before he left that made me think he was ashamed of the fact they were taking Skip to the conversion camp. 

Granted I could have interpreted that last bit wrong, and I had to assume a lot of things since the episode went over way too much in too short of a time. Which was the same problem with the Leo and Grace subplot.

[Florinaldo]

So, traits that gay men exhibit, adults or still children, are a love for Lady Gaga, using forced expressions like "Holy Jesse Tyler Ferguson", dressing up, sprawling oneself on the couch and finding stylish women "faaabulous". For a show that likes to style itself as progressive, they certainly like to deal in stereotypes.

[Bruinsfan]

The specific markers may have been overly stereotypical, but in my experience overdramatic childhood flamboyance in boys is a nearly infallible indicator of future gayness.

16 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I believe he'd call himself an "ex-gay" and his partner would call herself an "ex-lesbian."  A lot of these conversion groups/camps are run by people for whom the conversions were "successful."  (In quotes because there have also been quite a few for whom that didn't quite pan out.)

It's really only the self-hating closet cases that have the motivation to run that sort of camp. The legitimately straight anti-gay bigots don't want to be around us, let alone devote their whole careers to teaching gay kids to conform to straight society.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[txhorns79]

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I wonder if Elliot and Bonnie (his mother) are estranged as well, since she was gay.  Assuming Elliot knows that by now.  I would have rather seen Jack and Elliot try to patch things up rather than the stuff with Skip.

Did she even come up during the episode?  I didn't recall hearing her mentioned at all, which was odd since you'd think Elliot's issues would also have to do with her. 

I was kind of mixed on the episode.  I like that Jack is trying to fix his relationship with his son, but it did feel a little after school special to me.   

[Bringonthedrama]

20 hours ago, Maverick said:

  And there needed to be at least a mention of Elliot's mother, who was also gay.  There really needed to be some explanation of how this guy who grew up with gay parents (one of whom he actively sought out) in NYC became this hard core right-winger.

I assumed there was a mention of Elliot's mother, and I just missed it because I tuned in a few minutes late.  Geez, writing fail there.  I agree - the audience really needed to have a line or two (maybe one from Elliot, one from Skip?) spelling out why Elliot was estranged from Jack and why he went along with sending Skip to a conversion camp. I think we got a hint from Elliot's wife's clear discomfort at seeing nude male art in the apartment and Jack's personality on full display in a costume, then Elliot's line later about the fight with his wife and her demanding to know if he wants their son to turn out like Jack.  But that's not good enough; it needs to be blatant.  I wonder if Jack and Elliot have been estranged in recent years because conservative Emma asked Elliot to keep his distance from Jack (and Bonnie, too).  There are still people in the world believing that a youngster can be influenced to turn gay by spending time with gay people.  I used to be friends with a  conservative Catholic woman who told me that underage boys only turned gay because of being raped/molested my male adults.  It would not surprise me that a young man like Elliot, deeply in love with Emma, would go along with what she believed or wanted. He did not have a model of a healthy male-female relationship growing up because Bonnie was a single mother. She specifically told Jack when they met that she had never told Elliot she was gay, and she did everything for him as a parent. So he didn't have a second live-in parent, either man or woman, to have any idea what a good partnership/marriage looks like.

[Star Aristille]

Mama Aristille saw this episode as a dream.  She is one of the biggest homophobes I know and believes everyone can be "converted" or "made right," the way God intended them to be, so she would've loved a camp like this.  So of course she wasn't happy that Elliot pulled Skip out of the camp in the end.

But myself?  I was ecstatic, because no parent should do that to a child.  I was glad that Elliot realized that.

Oh, and I totally disregarded Grace and Karen's storyline, as well.  Not much meat to it.

[MaggieG]

I liked Will and Jack's reactions to Skip when he jumped onto the couch in the pajama pose. I also laughed at Andrew Rannels "Let the handsome man speak!"

[mikem]

During the episode, Will refers to Jack as his best friend.  But isn't Grace his best friend? 

I don't remember the details of the original series that well.  Did it ever get addressed whether Grace or Jack is his best friend?

[Jillybean]

18 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

So, traits that gay men exhibit, adults or still children, are a love for Lady Gaga, using forced expressions like "Holy Jesse Tyler Ferguson", dressing up, sprawling oneself on the couch and finding stylish women "faaabulous". For a show that likes to style itself as progressive, they certainly like to deal in stereotypes.

I have to say that "Jesse Tyler Ferguson" (there was no "Holy") made me laugh, because in the original series, Jack was known for using three-named women as exclamations. "Sarah Jessica Parker!" "Jennifer Love Hewitt!" etc. So it was a fun callback.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, mikem said:

During the episode, Will refers to Jack as his best friend.  But isn't Grace his best friend? 

I don't remember the details of the original series that well.  Did it ever get addressed whether Grace or Jack is his best friend?

It's possible to have more than one "best friend."  Jack is Will's best male friend.  Grace is Will's best female friend.

[Bringonthedrama]

The introduction of Skip makes me wonder about Karen.  I know that Jack, Will and Grace are all single again and did not have children with their exes - but what about Karen? Did I miss a mention of the always off-screen Stan and his kids? Did she divorce him, or did he die? Are those stepkids a part of her life?

[legaleagle53]

14 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

The introduction of Skip makes me wonder about Karen.  I know that Jack, Will and Grace are all single again and did not have children with their exes - but what about Karen? Did I miss a mention of the always off-screen Stan and his kids? Did she divorce him, or did he die? Are those stepkids a part of her life?

I believe those questions are set to be answered in an upcoming episode.

[Ely]

22 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

So, traits that gay men exhibit, adults or still children, are a love for Lady Gaga, using forced expressions like "Holy Jesse Tyler Ferguson", dressing up, sprawling oneself on the couch and finding stylish women "faaabulous". For a show that likes to style itself as progressive, they certainly like to deal in stereotypes.

They also like to play with clichés so I'm pretty sure that was to be seen as ironic.

[shksabelle]

[TheOtherOne]

Went back and watched Elliot's first appearance, which made me even sadder. Aw, he was so little and cute. Why'd you have to grow up to be a homophobe (or homophobe-adjacent)? (Oh, that's right. Lazy writing.)