S04.E03: Evil Manners

[Princess Sparkle]

Quote

Episode Description: When Cookie is denied a line of credit, she flashes back to her years in prison and compares her past struggles to her life now. Lucious continues to struggle with demons of his own and begs his family to tell him about the ways he's wronged them, but they are reluctant to tell him the truth. Meanwhile, the NYPD is still on Andre's case about the events that transpired in Vegas and one officer in particular catches his eye.

 

[mtlchick]

Because of COURSE the bank manager is related to the DuBois and yet still Cookie comes out ahead.  

 

"Does (Thirsty) actually dress like that?" "Every damn day."  Hee hee! 

Edited October 12, 2017 by mtlchick

[SimoneS]

I love Cookie in charge of Empire. She was fun negotiating with Shine who seems okay this season unfortunately he now knows about Lucious. What kind of bodyguard is that?

Also, it is difficult to believe the banker didn’t meet Cookie and Andre in a private office much less turn down their loan.

Taraji in Cookie’s purple suit was stunning in that photoshoot. I hope she doesn’t fall for Diana’s con game. She didn’t like it when those women decided to help Cookie. I was not surprised that she was behind the bank turning down their loan request.

I hate that Jamal is being all nice to his father because you know he will turn on him once his memory comes back. I cannot believe that Jamal told the boyfriend about Lucious. What a soft touch. I miss the days that when Jamal was hard.

Lucious and Jamal’s comment about Thirsty’s suit made me bust out laughing.

I am happy that Andre is suffering. He should be. Where is Juliana? Did Andre or Shine kill her? I do like the cop. Not sure why she was stripping for Andre. He can’t get it up after all.

The Dubois family is ridiculous. Poor Angelo. Cookie put it on him and he cannot bounce back.

I can’t believe that Hakeem thinks that he should be raising Bella.

[Artsda]

The Thirsty line by Lucious was the best.

I don't feel bad for the baby thinking Tiana is her mom. It's what Anika the baby killer deserves. 

[wanderingstar]

Moonshine. Ha!

I loved all the Jamal/Lucious scenes. Terrence and Jussie knocked them out of the park.

I'm liking the tension between Lucious and his family. He wants to know the truth about who he was before his accident, but it's clear they don't want to relive those painful memories. Based on this episode, Lucious does seem to have grainy memories (he remember Shine), so I wonder if/when he'll regain his full memory. Also, why do I feel like the writers are laying the groundwork for Lucious to fall for Cookie all over again.

Damn, Warren is one smooth operator. Watching him manipulate Jamal into revealing Lucious' condition was chilling. 

Of course Diana was responsible for Cookie's line of credit being declined. That woman is so devious. Loved the scene of the Dubois clan plotting to take down the Lyons. Angelo looks like he's been laid low.

Detective Pamela and Andre stripping for each other was something else. 

[phoenics]

I think music is what will give Lucious his memories back... the harder rap seems to give him his violent movies back... the other music makes him happy and glowy.

That painting he was doing was nice too... I love abstract art.

That moment when the women came together to help Cookie in prison and in the photoshoot was a wonderful #GirlPower moment - but then Diana had to be all evil and make me want Cookie to slap her... I wished Cookie had seen her in the car with the bank dude.

Jamal is dumb.  Warren is a snake - he's way too fine and devious I hate him.

I shouldn't feel badly for Anika because she did kill an unborn baby and almost killed Rhonda before "accidentally" killing her in self defense, so... she gets what she gets... but Tiana better watvh her back.

Andre!  Yummy.  The cop makes me nostalgic for Abbie Mills from Sleepy Hollow before the show went to hell.

Cookie's wardrobe this ep was perfect.  I loved everything she wore... that dress looked like DVF and her suit was fire.  I loved how she stood out against all of the pale colors the other women were wearing.

Diana is evil but so well put together!

Angelo is pathetic.  Dude needs to get it together, honestly.  

I really enjoyed tonight's episode and then realized that we were spared Demi Moore's character and I realized that I really can't stand her character and would like her to just disappear.

[Dee]

This season is pretty awesome thus far. Ilene wasn't kidding about keeping the focus on the Lyons in a major way.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Dee

[MyAimIsTrue]

I was a bit distracted during the episode so I feel like I missed a lot and will need to re-watch it on demand.  That being said, and I know I've mentioned it before, Phylicia Rashad is absolutely incredible in her role and she makes me take interest in a character that is pure evil.

[Biggie B]

What was up with that scene of Andre out on his balcony? Does he live next to the police station?? Very weird. I really don't like Andre at all right now.

[Syndicate]

18 hours ago, Dee said:

This season is pretty awesome thus far. Ilene wasn't kidding about keeping the focus on the Lyons in a major way.

I'm enjoying it for sure. Quite a few people don't seem to share my viewpoint of this season. Mileage varies, but for me, the show finally feels like the soap opera that I assume it was meant to be, and not some overwhelming musical. 

 

10 hours ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

I was a bit distracted during the episode so I feel like I missed a lot and will need to re-watch it on demand.  That being said, and I know I've mentioned it before, Phylicia Rashad is absolutely incredible in her role and she makes me take interest in a character that is pure evil.

Ms. Rashad is divine. It seems such a waste that she's never played this type of character before. She's like a black Stephanie Forrester, and I suppose you can say that Cookie is a bit of Brooke Logan.

[Angeleyes]

It felt like the show was really trying to hit us over the head with the way everyone was dressed at the photo shoot. Cookie’s purple suit was beautiful, but we get it. She’s different. She’s and outsider not in the same league as the other ladies yet they pale in comparison hence the pale colors. In real life, they all would have had to coordinate with the photographer and unless there was to be a feature article about Cookie they wouldn’t let one person in the photo so obviously stand out. (I know, I know, because TV show. Lol)

I don’t get why the family doesn’t just tell people that Luscious is still taking time to recover from his accident and his doctor has recommended limiting contact with people. The public already knows about his leg injury so they could use that as a cover without having to divulge his memory issues. 

It will be interesting to see what the DuBois girl does to Andre to “take away his mind” since he already seems to have his hands full with the police lady. 

[byrd]

15 hours ago, Artsda said:

The Thirsty line by Lucious was the best.

I don't feel bad for the baby thinking Tiana is her mom. It's what Anika the baby killer deserves. 

Amen..

17 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Because of COURSE the bank manager is related to the DuBois and yet still Cookie comes out ahead.  

 

"Does (Thirsty) actually dress like that?" "Every damn day."  Hee hee! 

So happy the other women embraced Cookie and decided to invest with her. Dubois was left looking foolish, but of course she had to pretend to jump on the bandwagon. Cookie has good instincts , she'll never trust her. One banker don't stop no show. All of those powerful women know what it's like to be in business and the prejudice against black women of power can be fierce  She understood Cookie's need for support  ..awesome episode...

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, Angeleyes said:

I don’t get why the family doesn’t just tell people that Luscious is still taking time to recover from his accident and his doctor has recommended limiting contact with people. The public already knows about his leg injury so they could use that as a cover without having to divulge his memory issues. 

 

It will be interesting to see what the DuBois girl does to Andre to “take away his mind” since he already seems to have his hands full with the police lady. 

They have told the public that Lucious is taking time to recover. The problem is that he has close friends and close colleagues along with the board who find it odd that they haven't been able to see or even talk to him at all. Even if he is recovering, there is no reason that he shouldn't be able to videoconference into a board meeting for a few minutes to reassure the members. It makes sense that people are getting suspicious.

It just occurred to me that the DuBois woman might have hired to the police woman to seduce and suck Andre in.

Edited October 12, 2017 by SimoneS

[tennisgurl]

Everywhere you look in New York high society, theres another well dressed, manipulative DuBois causing trouble for Cookie and the Lyons! I almost want to watch a spin off starring them, they're so delightfully evil and elegant. Diana is finally a worthy foe. 

It was just sad watching Warren manipulate Jamal so easily. I guess the female twin will try to screw with Andres medication and make his bipolar disorder act up, and thats what they mean by taking his "brain" from him. Also, as much as I love Hakeem, he really is the Cowardly Lyon. He talks more shit than anyone in the family, but is probably the least actually threatening member of the clan. 

Speaking of, I am glad baby Bella thinks Tiana is her mom instead of Anika. Its what Anika deserves after killing Rhonda and Andres baby, and then Rhonda herself. Tiana is probably a better mom anyway. 

The Thirsty line made me laugh and laugh. Yep, thats Thirsty. Speaking of clothes, I was really liking Andres fedora/suit combo outfit. He looked like a really successful bootlegger from the Prohibition era. Also, what are the odds that the cop is some kind of DuBois cousin or something?

Also nice seeing Cookie connecting with both the women in prison AND the Fortune 500 women. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Biggie B]

Quote

Speaking of, I`m glad baby Bella thinks Tiana is her mom instead of Anika. Its what Anika deserves after killing Rhonda and Andres baby, and then Rhonda herself. Tiana is probably a better mom anyway.

I don't know about that. I mean, Tiana certainly would absolutely never do anything inappropriate to little Bella, but judging from Tiana's facial expressions, I don't think she'd mind terribly if the baby went to live with Anika full-time either. When Hakeem, in the effort to keep Anika from taking Bella, said he needed to bring Bella to see Lucious, Tiana was quick to point out that Lucious had just seen her yesterday. As much as Tiana truly cares for sweet little Bella, I think she would be (not so) secretly relieved to be the center of Hakeem's attention.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Biggie B

[Chairperson Meow]

I loved Bella's little crown.  But what happened to Anika' s hair?   It looks like a cocker spaniel.   They can fix her hair better than that.   I can't wait till next week.  I hope we see Cookie talk to Luscious about her time in prison.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

I don't know about that. I mean, Tiana certainly would absolutely never do anything inappropriate to little Bella, but judging from Tiana's facial expressions, I don't think she'd mind terribly if the baby went to live with Anika full-time either. When Hakeem, in the effort to keep Anika from taking Bella, said he needed to bring Bella to see Lucious, Tiana was quick to point out that Lucious had just seen her yesterday. As much as Tiana truly cares for sweet little Bella, I think she would be (not so) secretly relieved to be the center of Hakeem's attention.

I think that while Tiana likes spending time with Bella, she just doesn't want to be a full time mother either right now or maybe never. I like this development a lot. 

 

2 hours ago, journalism16 said:

I agree with everything you said in your post, except for the last part. Who else is supposed to be raising Bella when her mother can't be trusted with anything, as far as you can throw her, and Cookie can't help raise her when she is trying to run Empire and everyone is also trying to help Lucious in the best way they can. Also, Hakeem doesn't trust Anika anyway, given everything that happened. And Tiana is being very helpful and supportive of Hakeem with Bella, while also not trying to come in between Anika and Hakeem while they are trying to co-parent Bella. So I believe that Bella is in good hands with Hakeem and Tiana right now.

If I had to pick a Lyon to raise Bella, it would be Cookie or Jamal. Hakeem would be my last choice. He is still a spoilt irresponsible child obsessed with his music. Tiana obviously doesn't want to be Bella's full-time mother and I don't blame her.

Edited October 12, 2017 by SimoneS

[tennisgurl]

11 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

f I had to pick a Lyon to raise Bella, it would be Cookie or Jamal. Hakeem would be my last choice. He is still a spoilt irresponsible child obsessed with his music. Tiana obviously doesn't want to be Bella's full-time mother and I don't blame her.

Same here. While Tiana clearly enjoys spending time with Bella, and Bella seems to be really attached to her, and vice versa, she doesn't seem to want to be a full time mom, and I dont blame her at all. Bela isn't her responsibility, and shes a young women with a promising career ahead of her. I mean, Tiana is still a million times better a choice than Anikas crazy ass (I question her taste in men, but Tiana is quite well adjusted) And its obvious that Hekeem isn't even close to being ready to be a parent, let alone a single dad. Hekeem has matured since season one, but he is still a spoiled kid who might love his daughter, but he is mostly interested in music and live streams and champagne. And Anika is, as we already discussed, a crazy murderer, so she really shouldn't be spending a lot of time with Bella either. It would probably be for the best if Jamal or Cookie took over primary care, but they have a lot going on too, who who knows what will happen to little Bela, especially when she gets older and needs more direct parenting? 

[Margohill]

I'm so happy the ratings for Empire adjusted up to 2.0. Another good episode and great acting of course.

Lucious still "acting" like he lost memory of everything including Cookie's time in jail? Something is up with this man. Pressing his family for information about him and his evil deeds is stressing the family out but I'm glad Hakeem tells him stuff to his face, Jamal fessed up about the trash-can incident and Cookie admitted to him that he was the reason she went to jail. We'll see how Lucious will soak all that up. I am beginning to think he is playing them. something smells very fishy.

Shine is getting on my nerves. He thinks he can walk in and demand more albums. He really thinks he's got some leverage. We'll see.

So proud of Cookie handling the business. She certainly knows her numbers and details and she could cut a deal with Shine. Good job. I could tell that banker who refused them a loan was probably working for the Dubois. He denied the loan without any credible reason. That was a red flag to me.

Mrs. Dubois's evil plan came back to hit her in the face when Cookie got the offer from the nice lady. That's why I love Cookie. she is honest and speaks her mind and that helped her secure that loan. Mrs. Dubois is messing with the wrong b$tch. She'll find out hopefully soon enough.

I loved it when Bella recoiled from Anika and went straight back to Tiana. That must have hurt. I hope Hakeem and Tiana get to raise Bella. I still can't stand Anika for killing Rhonda's baby.  

Andre and this cop rocked the night. What was up with the balcony stripping? It will be interesting to see where this leads. She's very smart and caught Andre in a lie so she must know that Andre is hiding something but will she arrest him? Hmmmmmm.... I am very worried about Andre's drinking. He might be spiraling out of control with guilt.

Jamal is the BIGGEST FOOL if there ever was one and that's all I have to say about Jamal.

That painting Lucious did on the wall was amazing. I loved it. It's bizarre he couldn't recall how to make music but his painting skills are still there. The brain is complicated.

Overall great episode which leaves me looking forward to the next episode to see how Cookie's conversation about her jail time will go with Lucious.

[Dee]

Jamal has held off on fully trusting Warren for nearly six months, so his current situation is a fairly big change from his previous relationships.

He may be a hopeless romantic but at least, familial circumstances notwithstanding, he's trying to learn from his past mistakes.

[Margohill]

17 minutes ago, Dee said:

He may be a hopeless romantic but at least, familial circumstances notwithstanding, he's trying to learn from his past mistakes.

Trying to learn from his mistakes by exposing his father's secret? Lucious's memory loss is a family secret which if it gets out, could affect their Empire. Even Hakeem who has been held captive by Mrs. Dubois has not uttered a word to her about his father's condition. Every family member has kept this a secret. The only way Shine found out was because he forced himself in Jamal's studio when Lucious was in there. Even so, Shine is like family so he may not be harmful to Lucious. Jamal is the first to expose it and worse off, to the enemy. He may not know that Warren is the enemy but Jamal isn't very smart when it comes to relationships. SMH

[Dee]

2 hours ago, Margohill said:

Trying to learn from his mistakes by exposing his father's secret? Lucious's memory loss is a family secret which if it gets out, could affect their Empire. Even Hakeem who has been held captive by Mrs. Dubois has not uttered a word to her about his father's condition. Every family member has kept this a secret. The only way Shine found out was because he forced himself in Jamal's studio when Lucious was in there. Even so, Shine is like family so he may not be harmful to Lucious. Jamal is the first to expose it and worse off, to the enemy. He may not know that Warren is the enemy but Jamal isn't very smart when it comes to relationships. SMH

He was clearly reticent to discuss his father's condition; but with Jamal feeling he can't trust many people (including those in his inner circle), Warren's emotional blackmail, and his intense interactions with Lucious (including Lucious urging him to let Warren in), Jamal made the decision to confide in his boyfriend (who he's been seeing roughly half a year).

And it's not as if Jamal is the only Lyon Brother who's revealed Lucious precarious situation, Tiana has accompanied Hakeem during several of his visits with Lucious. So, if it's alright for Hakeem to place his trust in his significant other, why isn't it for Jamal?

[Syndicate]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Everywhere you look in New York high society, theres another well dressed, manipulative DuBois causing trouble for Cookie and the Lyons! I almost want to watch a spin off starring them, they're so delightfully evil and elegant. Diana is finally a worthy foe. 

It was just sad watching Warren manipulate Jamal so easily. I guess the female twin will try to screw with Andres medication and make his bipolar disorder act up, and thats what they mean by taking his "brain" from him. Also, as much as I love Hakeem, he really is the Cowardly Lyon. He talks more shit than anyone in the family, but is probably the least actually threatening member of the clan. 

Speaking of, I am glad baby Bella thinks Tiana is her mom instead of Anika. Its what Anika deserves after killing Rhonda and Andres baby, and then Rhonda herself. Tiana is probably a better mom anyway. 

The Thirsty line made me laugh and laugh. Yep, thats Thirsty. Speaking of clothes, I was really liking Andres fedora/suit combo outfit. He looked like a really successful bootlegger from the Prohibition era. Also, what are the odds that the cop is some kind of DuBois cousin or something?

Also nice seeing Cookie connecting with both the women in prison AND the Fortune 500 women. 

I wouldn't mind the cop being a DuBois relative. I say, upgrade that treacherous family ASAP! Another niece for Diana? Or perhaps a half-sister to Angelo via Angelo's dad (since we already heard that Angelo was Diana's only child)? Speaking of Angelo's dad, did I miss him being mentioned at some point? Like, is he still alive somewhere? If he's still among the living, let's meet him too! Denzel Washington, perhaps?

[Dee]

I love Becky running things. She got her shot and she isn't wasting it.

Lucious and Jamal's interaction with Thirsty, who is an honorary Lyon at this point, was comedy gold. Andre Royo is utterly delightful.

I LOVED that the show highlighted the different iterations of girl power among the female inmates and the rich businesswomen. 

I also loved that the show highlighted Cookie learning from her previous mistakes. Instead of reacting defensively, she impressed the women with her charm and candor.

Shine continues to be a strangely compelling nuisance. Xzibit truly lights up around Terrence & Taraji. He needs to share more scenes with them.

Speaking of sharing more scenes, I'm loving Cookie and Andre working in tandem. He was clearly impressed with his mother's poise with the sneering banker. He needs to take lessons since Pamela has gotten him hot and bothered in record time. What are the betting odds on her being on Lana's payroll?

Sad sack Angelo is a mess. He wasn't wrong about Warren though.

Hakeem & Tiana's little makeshift family is adorable but Anika is right, she is Bella's mother and Tiana still doesn't seem overly eager to be a stepmother.

This may be the best post-Clair Huxtable role of Phylicia Rashad's television career. She looks like she's having an absolute blast.

Ta'Rhonda Jones is criminally underutilized. If Becky can snag a promotion, so can Porsha.

The scenes between Lucious & Jamal were fantastic. Jamal re-teaching Lucious about music was great; using Chasing The Sky was an ingenious callback. Lucious horror at his treatment of Jamal was moving. It was really sad to see Jamal attempt to rationalize Lucious homophobia to justify still loving his father. Their bond is so complex.

Terrence & Taraji continue to prove why they're the cornerstones of this show. Watching them work is an amazing experience.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Dee

[jhlipton]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think that while Tiana likes spending time with Bella, she just doesn't want to be a full time mother either right now or maybe never. I like this development a lot.

Me too. Not every woman has to want to be a mom, or turn into one the second they hold a baby.  I want to see her running her own life, not just be an add-on for Hakeem.  Speaking of, does Hakeem know any other lyrics than every damn rap song in the past decade.  Yeah, we get it: You're tough and dangerous and gonna shoot someone before you get in the club and steal someone's girl and bang her silly.  Whoop.  Try something new!

[MyAimIsTrue]

7 hours ago, Dee said:

This may be the best post-Clair Huxtable role of Phylicia Rashad's television career. She looks like she's having an absolute blast.

I'm glad you specified television as she's had some amazing runs on Broadway as well, with a Tony Award and multiple nominations to prove it.  Diana could have been a farcical character but Phylicia gives her dimension.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

I'm glad you specified television as she's had some amazing runs on Broadway as well, with a Tony Award and multiple nominations to prove it. 

Indeed. Her turns in Gem Of The Ocean and Raisin In The Sun, alone, were fantastic. However Empire casting her completely against type was a genius idea.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Dee

[byrd]

On 10/12/2017 at 9:25 AM, Syndicate said:

I'm enjoying it for sure. Quite a few people don't seem to share my viewpoint of this season. Mileage varies, but for me, the show finally feels like the soap opera that I assume it was meant to be, and not some overwhelming musical. 

 

Ms. Rashad is divine. It seems such a waste that she's never played this type of character before. She's like a black Stephanie Forrester, and I suppose you can say that Cookie is a bit of Brooke Logan.

I

17 hours ago, Dee said:

I love Becky running things. She got her shot and she isn't wasting it.

Lucious and Jamal's interaction with Thirsty, who is an honorary Lyon at this point, was comedy gold. Andre Royo is utterly delightful.

I LOVED that the show highlighted the different iterations of girl power among the female inmates and the rich businesswomen. 

I also loved that the show highlighted Cookie learning from her previous mistakes. Instead of reacting defensively, she impressed the women with her charm and candor.

Shine continues to be a strangely compelling nuisance. Xzibit truly lights up around Terrence & Taraji. He needs to share more scenes with them.

Speaking of sharing more scenes, I'm loving Cookie and Andre working in tandem. He was clearly impressed with his mother's poise with the sneering banker. He needs to take lessons since Pamela has gotten him hot and bothered in record time. What are the betting odds on her being on Lana's payroll?

Sad sack Angelo is a mess. He wasn't wrong about Warren though.

Hakeem & Tiana's little makeshift family is adorable but Anika is right, she is Bella's mother and Tiana still doesn't seem overly eager to be a stepmother.

This may be the best post-Clair Huxtable role of Phylicia Rashad's television career. She looks like she's having an absolute blast.

Ta'Rhonda Jones is criminally underutilized. If Becky can snag a promotion, so can Porsha.

The scenes between Lucious & Jamal were fantastic. Jamal re-teaching Lucious about music was great; using Chasing The Sky was an ingenious callback. Lucious horror at his treatment of Jamal was moving. It was really sad to see Jamal attempt to rationalize Lucious homophobia to justify still loving his father. Their bond is so complex.

Terrence & Taraji continue to prove why they're the cornerstones of this show. Watching them work is an amazing experience.

I so agree regarding the Dubois family. Phylicia Rashad was tailor made for this role. They really could have their own-spin-off.  I think I just like seeing powerful black people with lots of money no matter how evil they  are . Lol !!!!!!!!!  

8 hours ago, Dee said:

Indeed. Her turns in Gem Of The Ocean and Raisin In The Sun, alone, were fantastic. However Empire casting her completely against type was a genius idea.

She's a great actor, that's why she can play this role so well. It's completely out of character for her, but look at how she has mesmerized us all.

[Neurochick]

The DuBios family (the way to take them out is to poison Diane's botox needle) are the most awful people in this show, maybe even on the planet.  Why?  One thing I have learned; when black folks try to take each other out, TPTB stand back and laugh, and then when one family is left standing, TPTB take THEM out.  That's what is so awful about Diane, she's old enough to know that.  That awful family deserves to be annihilated in a huge pile of horse shit.

Every time I see Diane, I think about Michael Kenneth Williams' character, Chalky White, from Boardwalk Empire; he was the criminal, he brought in the money, but his wife acted like her shit didn't stink.  Diane thinks her shit doesn't stink, but she's just like the Lyons.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Neurochick

[Dee]

That's what makes them awesome. They thumb their noses at the Lyons despite their own less than admirable roots and they're just as shady as the Lyons in terms of methods.

[Neurochick]

The DuBois family should be on a show like the new Dynasty, I think they're wasted on Empire.

If I were Diane, I wouldn't fuck with anybody who was in prison for 17 years.  Diane is FAR removed from hood, but Cookie isn't.  And what Cookie realized was that in reality the women have to stick together because in many cases the men won't stick with them.  Diane is a crappy mother because instead of blaming the Lyons, she should blame her dumbass son.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Neurochick

[Dee]

That's what makes their family rivalry compelling.

The DuBois are The Wealthy Black Elite vs. The Nouveau Rich Lyons.

As Lucious told Diana, she's every bit as crooked as him, she just expects people like him to do her dirty work for her.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Dee

[Neurochick]

The DuBois really aren't the Wealthy Black Elite, they're only like a generation separated from the Lyons.

And what kind of "mother" would ask her child to sleep with someone just to get back at an enemy?  I'd tell my mama to do it herself.  I think Angelo and/or Lucious will wind up killing Diana.

[Dee]

They're several generations separated from the Lyons. Diana is a couple of generations, give or take a few years, removed from Lucious, and her family was squarely on the path to going straight a couple of generations before her.

Warren isn't Diana's son, he's her nephew. It's still kind of skanky, but they've never been above playing dirty.

However, she's always felt the Lyons are a 'detriment to the race' and that they're, rightly or wrongly, responsible for ruining all the progress the DuBois family has made over the years (specifically with regard to Angelo's potential political prospects).

[Margohill]

21 hours ago, Dee said:

Warren isn't Diana's son, he's her nephew. It's still kind of skanky, but they've never been above playing dirty.

Warren was vey upset when Diana mentioned that he was just like his father. I wonder what the story is behind his father.

 

21 hours ago, Dee said:

However, she's always felt the Lyons are a 'detriment to the race'

If that's the case, I wonder why she was Ok with her son dating and "almost" marrying Cookie. Diana is as slick as the devil. She doesn't like the Lyons and thinks they are beneath her but she had no trouble dilly-dallying with them and enjoying all the concerts and promotions the Lyons were giving her son when he was running for mayor. She can't eat her cake and have it too. Angelo is a hot mess. It's amazing how he so easily falls apart after being dumped by a woman he called 'garbage'. He should have moved on with some 'uppity' debutante by now if he was a strong and self-confident man. It shows that he has been baby-sat all his childhood and adult life by his mama and doesn't know how to take rejection. Too bad.

22 hours ago, Neurochick said:

If I were Diane, I wouldn't fuck with anybody who was in prison for 17 years.

Very well put. Cookie is a tough and feisty woman who has seen it all and she knows people who can 'take care' of things'. Diana better watch it. She is traversing an unfamiliar territory with Cookie. I can't wait to see the final showdown.

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:48 PM, journalism16 said:

 That is fine that you feel that Hakeem is still spoiled, and I definitely agree that Tiana does not and shouldn't want to be a mother to Bella now, but Hakeem is Bella's father and he should help to raise his daughter. In my opinion, Hakeem still does act spoiled at times and is not obsessed with just his music because it's their family business. He is growing and learning how to be a father because that's what Bella needs. He is strong and she needs that kind of strength around her right now, since Hakeem is her father, and he is trying to do the very best that he can as a man and father.

Excellent point Journalism. I have been very hard on Hakeem for being spoiled and acting childish and irresponsible but I have been very impressed with Hakeem this season for trying to do right by his daughter. It is good that he has decided to get actively involved in raising his daughter and that will help him grow up as a man. This is good for Hakeem and I am proud of him. Tiana may not want to get in between Hakeem and Anika but I think she is starting to get attached to Bella and even if she is still young and wants to focus on her career, she may still fall in love with Bella and want to be close to her if Hakeem gives her that chance. I don't think that will hinder her career in anyway.

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:24 PM, Dee said:

And it's not as if Jamal is the only Lyon Brother who's revealed Lucious precarious situation, Tiana has accompanied Hakeem during several of his visits with Lucious. So, if it's alright for Hakeem to place his trust in his significant other, why isn't it for Jamal?

You just cannot compare Tiana with Warren when it comes to their relationship with Lucious and the Lyon family. Good grief, Tiana was hired by Empire as a singer and has remained really close to both Cookie and Lucious since then despite her tumultuous relationship with Hakeem. She is regarded more as family and would never do anything to hurt the Lyons. Jamal knows NOTHING about Warren. Has he met any of his relatives? Does he know anything about Warren's background besides the lies Warren has told him? Jamal continues to play the fool when it comes to relationships. He should NEVER have told Warren about Lucious's condition. A vague statement would have sufficed. I hope he gets a serious blow-back from this. SMH

[Dee]

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Warren was vey upset when Diana mentioned that he was just like his father. I wonder what the story is behind his father.

Warren told Jamal his father was an incorrigible gambler who cared more about his addiction than his own son. Given the immediate manner in which he snapped at Diana when she compared him to his Dad, he likely has a serious complex when it comes to his feelings about his own father, like Jamal does with Lucious.

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If that's the case, I wonder why she was Ok with her son dating and "almost" marrying Cookie. Diana is as slick as the devil. She doesn't like the Lyons and thinks they are beneath her but she had no trouble dilly-dallying with them and enjoying all the concerts and promotions the Lyons were giving her son when he was running for mayor. She can't eat her cake and have it too. Angelo is a hot mess. It's amazing how he so easily falls apart after being dumped by a woman he called 'garbage'. He should have moved on with some 'uppity' debutante by now if he was a strong and self-confident man. It shows that he has been baby-sat all his childhood and adult life by his mama and doesn't know how to take rejection. Too bad.

I don't think Diana was ever particularly enthused by Angelo's intentions of marrying Cookie. She was more than a little nervous about Angelo becoming further involved with the Lyons, after Helene's warning, but that was mitigated by the Lyons continued usefulness. It wasn't until Diana decided to interfere with things, directly, that the whole situation quickly began to go south.

Diana knew Cookie was trying to fit into their world and that she was good for Angelo's political career. So, as long as Cookie was an asset, she was willing to pragmatically put her own feelings aside. However, after the hot mic situation happened, it was full on WAR as far as Diana was concerned.

Angelo's descent into self pity and alcoholism seems to stem from low self esteem due to his mother coddling him. Imagine being raised your entire life to be a star, only to have the rug abruptly pulled out from under you because of your own bad choices. That's gotta sting more than a little bit. But as Diana told him, he's the one that has to find his place in the world, she can't do it for him.

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You just cannot compare Tiana with Warren when it comes to their relationship with Lucious and the Lyon family. Good grief, Tiana was hired by Empire as a singer and has remained really close to both Cookie and Lucious since then despite her tumultuous relationship with Hakeem. She is regarded more as family and would never do anything to hurt the Lyons. Jamal knows NOTHING about Warren. Has he met any of his relatives? Does he know anything about Warren's background besides the lies Warren has told him? Jamal continues to play the fool when it comes to relationships. He should NEVER have told Warren about Lucious's condition. A vague statement would have sufficed. I hope he gets a serious blow-back from this. SMH

I totally agree that Tiana has a fairly close relationship with the Lyons, but even with that established closeness, Cookie was not happy when she found out that Tiana had been accompanying Hakeem during his visits. But because there was so much going on in that immediate moment Cookie temporarily dropped the issue.

Also, Becky, Porsha, Thirsty and Chicken are all, arguably, as close, if not closer to the Lyons than Tiana, and Cookie hasn't shared the full extent of Lucious condition with any of them either. So closeness isn't always an arbiter of trustworthiness. And as close as Tiana is to the Lyons, does not mean she would've been the soul of discretion. It was just last season that she was inadvertently responsible for a major Empire security breach by being relatively careless.

The reason Jamal doesn't know much about Warren is because he's been taking things slow. However he can't be blamed for Warren being the enemy. As far as Jamal knows, Warren is someone he has slowly become acquainted with, and feels he can trust, despite his initial misgivings.

Will it backfire? Most likely. Will Warren regret his actions if/when he truly falls for Jamal? Probably. Will Jamal be forgiving if/when he learns the truth about Warren's real motives? Not very likely.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Dee

[thuganomics85]

Of course that banker was in Diana's pocket.  At this point, I'm going to suspect every new character being part of the DuBois machine.  Glad Cookie inadvertently found a way to beat her, but Diana's war is far from over.  The DuBois continues to be one of the best antagonists on this show.  Phylicia Rashad is perfection.

Also, she now might know about what is really going on with Lucious, thanks to Jamal spilling the beans to Warren about it.  Classic Jamal!  I still think Warren will actually legit fall for him, but I'm sure there will be major damage.

Hey, Angelo!  You are clearly not taking this well at all!

So, Andre and the NYPD detective seem to have some kind of bizarre "they hate each other, but really just find each other hot" kind of thing going on.  This probably won't end well either.

The Lucious/Jamal scenes were nice, which means it's really going to suck when old Lucious comes back (because that is totally happening.)

Enjoyed seeing more of Cookie's time in prison.

Shine also knows about Lucious, so I'm sure he'll use that to his own advantage.

Anika is so not happy that Bella like Tiana over her.  That said, I did notice that Tiana isn't exactly thrilled over how Hakeem seems to be letting her do the majority of the parenting.

Keep wearing those awesome suits, Thirsty! 

[Happytobehere]

On 10/11/2017 at 9:02 PM, SimoneS said:

I love Cookie in charge of Empire. She was fun negotiating with Shine who seems okay this season unfortunately he now knows about Lucious. What kind of bodyguard is that?

Also, it is difficult to believe the banker didn’t meet Cookie and Andre in a private office much less turn down their loan.

Taraji in Cookie’s purple suit was stunning in that photoshoot. I hope she doesn’t fall for Diana’s con game. She didn’t like it when those women decided to help Cookie. I was not surprised that she was behind the bank turning down their loan request.

I hate that Jamal is being all nice to his father because you know he will turn on him once his memory comes back. I cannot believe that Jamal told the boyfriend about Lucious. What a soft touch. I miss the days that when Jamal was hard.

Lucious and Jamal’s comment about Thirsty’s suit made me bust out laughing.

I am happy that Andre is suffering. He should be. Where is Juliana? Did Andre or Shine kill her? I do like the cop. Not sure why she was stripping for Andre. He can’t get it up after all.

The Dubois family is ridiculous. Poor Angelo. Cookie put it on him and he cannot bounce back.

I can’t believe that Hakeem thinks that he should be raising Bella.

Jamal is my second favorite character behind Cookie, but I can’t believe how straight stupid he is.  No way does someone in Jamal’s position not have people coming so directly into their orbit investigated.  Since he chooses to believe any sucker who crosses his path, I can’t really hurt for him when he finds out he is being played.

I know Andre is a Lyon, but where does the show go from here with his character? WIll he get away with his crimes and live to scheme another day? Will his treachery but revealed but he be kept aroun d for sits and giggles like other characters who no longer have an actual place on the show?  

Hakeem remains an embarrassment to brain cells.

Can’t remember nothing Lucious is temporarily a better person but we know this will never last, so I’lm not going to invest much in the new and improved Lucifer.

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, Margohill said:

Tiana may not want to get in between Hakeem and Anika but I think she is starting to get attached to Bella and even if she is still young and wants to focus on her career, she may still fall in love with Bella and want to be close to her if Hakeem gives her that chance. I don't think that will hinder her career in anyway.

I hope not.  It's OK for her to be affectionate and supporting, but I sure hope they don't go "Every woman secretly wants to be a mommy".  So tired of that trope. 

[Happytobehere]

On 10/11/2017 at 10:57 PM, phoenics said:

I really enjoyed tonight's episode and then realized that we were spared Demi Moore's character and I realized that I really can't stand her character and would like her to just disappear.

I couldn’t agree more, but remember that Lee Daniels feels that he has to make WW feel loved and better bout themselves, so Queen Face-Lift and her equally surgified daughter will be back making us want to vomit in our mouths sooner than you know it.

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

I couldn’t agree more, but remember that Lee Daniels feels that he has to make WW feel loved and better bout themselves, so Queen Face-Lift and her equally surgified daughter will be back making us want to vomit in our mouths sooner than you know it.

Is there a quote or interview from LD that will make me dislike him even more?

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

I couldn’t agree more, but remember that Lee Daniels feels that he has to make WW feel loved and better bout themselves

Queen Face-Lift and her equally surgified daughter

I feel the second part spoils a perfectly good point to make it all about appearance.  What difference does it make is Demi and Rumor had surgeries?  That doesn't affect their whiteness, nor their acting ability.

[Margohill]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 10:01 AM, Happytobehere said:

I couldn’t agree more, but remember that Lee Daniels feels that he has to make WW feel loved and better bout themselves,

I highly doubt that because he would have made "Rhonda" more prominent on the show and would have given her a decent burial on the show. However, LD has a thing for guest stars on his show. He even talked about Bruce Willis joining Demi and the daughter on the show on one interview I watched. SMH. If the history of this show has taught us anything, it is that guest stars have not helped ratings for this show AT ALL. On the other hand, when the original cast are the main stars with powerful storylines, the ratings soar. 

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:29 PM, Dee said:

Terrence & Taraji continue to prove why they're the cornerstones of this show. Watching them work is an amazing experience.

AGREED, AGREED, AGREED. We want to see more of the regular cast members as well. They are the ones who made this show so popular in the first place, not guest stars. JMHO

[Happytobehere]

6 hours ago, Margohill said:

I highly doubt that because he would have made "Rhonda" more prominent on the show and would have given her a decent burial on the show. However, LD has a thing for guest stars on his show. He even talked about Bruce Willis joining Demi and the daughter on the show on one interview I watched. SMH. If the history of this show has taught us anything, it is that guest stars have not helped ratings for this show AT ALL. On the other hand, when the original cast are the main stars with powerful storylines, the ratings soar. 

Okay, so the fact that Daniels himself stated this when questioned about making the lead on Star white isn’t enough to convince you.

On 10/15/2017 at 2:37 PM, phoenics said:

Is there a quote or interview from LD that will make me dislike him even more?

I think you can find it on line. He talks about casting a white lead on Star because he felt that it would heal the country and people could embrace the white lead, or some such foolishness.

[darkestboy]

I really liked this one. Great music and some nice scheming moments too.

Cookie's prison flashbacks worked pretty well with tying into her current situation with Lucious, who does seem to be getting closer and closer to coming back, due to his interactions with Shyne and picking up aspects of himself with his conversations with Jamal and so on.

Diana is good antagonist and I quite liked the photoshoot with her, Cookie and those other businesswomen this week. Angelo can go away if they're not going to do anything with him other than being self pitying to be honest.

Jamal was reckless in telling Warren about Lucious, Andre is probably being reckless with Detective Rose.

The Hakeem/Anika/Tiana scenes with Bella were the weakest part of the episode but still decent enough to watch, 8/10

[Dee]

2 hours ago, journalism16 said:

But with Cookie and Lucious's feelings toward her

Cookie never had much of a problem with her daughter-in-law. It was Lucious who didn't really care for Rhonda.

[Margohill]

4 hours ago, journalism16 said:

Are you talking about Empire, Star, or both?

Talking about Empire since I don't watch Star. I tried but it doesn't interest me much.

4 hours ago, journalism16 said:

I am glad that the show has guest stars, but unless the guest stars' characters are connected to the Lyon family in some way or are going to be formidable foes for them, or musical guests

I agree that it's great when the guests are tough foes to the Lyons or are connected to them or are great musical guests, it helps the show. However, the role "Claudia" plays does not fit any if these and when she's on, she tends to suck up much of the screen-time from other cast members like Thirsty, Becky, Portia and Tiana who unfortunately always seem to be sidelined by a lot of these guest stars. Claudia does not seem to be bringing any new fans to the show so far unless a diabolical plot to her storyline unfolds which shakes up the show in a good way????? 

2 hours ago, Dee said:

It was Lucious who didn't really care for Rhonda.

I wonder about that since as far as I can remember, Lucious was the one who got extremely giddy and excited when he found out that Rhonda was pregnant. He even rubbed her pregnant belly once and bought them a huge mansion with lots of perks and luxurious stuff. Rhonda even told Anika once that Lucious had opened up to her and was visiting their home often. Cookie never got quite as close to Rhonda as much as Lucious did IMO.

[Dee]

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I wonder about that since as far as I can remember, Lucious was the one who got extremely giddy and excited when he found out that Rhonda was pregnant. He even rubbed her pregnant belly once and bought them a huge mansion with lots of perks and luxurious stuff. Rhonda even told Anika once that Lucious had opened up to her and was visiting their home often.

Lucious was happy Rhonda was pregnant because it meant another potential (male) heir for him, which was almost immediately after Rhonda & Andre curried his favor by getting Roxanne off his back and landing the x-stream deal.

So prior to their baby's death, Andre/Rhonda were sitting fairly pretty.

Prior to all of that though, Lucious had absolutely no use for Rhonda, which was made worse because Rhonda had no problem standing up to him.

Cookie was closer to Rhonda than Lucious. While nobody would mistake them for best friends, Cookie genuinely cared about Rhonda, unlike Lucious.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Dee

[journalism16]

On October 11, 2017 at 6:02 PM, SimoneS said:

I love Cookie in charge of Empire. She was fun negotiating with Shine who seems okay this season unfortunately he now knows about Lucious. What kind of bodyguard is that?

Also, it is difficult to believe the banker didn’t meet Cookie and Andre in a private office much less turn down their loan.

Taraji in Cookie’s purple suit was stunning in that photoshoot. I hope she doesn’t fall for Diana’s con game. She didn’t like it when those women decided to help Cookie. I was not surprised that she was behind the bank turning down their loan request.

I hate that Jamal is being all nice to his father because you know he will turn on him once his memory comes back. I cannot believe that Jamal told the boyfriend about Lucious. What a soft touch. I miss the days that when Jamal was hard.

Lucious and Jamal’s comment about Thirsty’s suit made me bust out laughing.

I am happy that Andre is suffering. He should be. Where is Juliana? Did Andre or Shine kill her? I do like the cop. Not sure why she was stripping for Andre. He can’t get it up after all.

The Dubois family is ridiculous. Poor Angelo. Cookie put it on him and he cannot bounce back.

I can’t believe that Hakeem thinks that he should be raising Bella.

I agree with everything you said, except the last part. Who else is supposed to be raising Bella when her mother can't be trusted with anything, as far as you can throw her, and Cookie can't help raise her when she is trying to run Empire and everyone is trying to help Lucious in any way they can. Hakeem doesn't trust Anika anyway, given everything that's happened, and he shouldn't. Tiana is being very supportive of Hakeem raising his daughter while not trying to come in between Hakeem and Anika's ability to co-parent Bella. So I think Bella is in good hands with Hakeem and Tiana right now.

[journalism16]

On October 17, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Margohill said:

Talking about Empire since I don't watch Star. I tried but it doesn't interest me much.

I agree that it's great when the guests are tough foes to the Lyons or are connected to them or are great musical guests, it helps the show. However, the role "Claudia" plays does not fit any if these and when she's on, she tends to suck up much of the screen-time from other cast members like Thirsty, Becky, Portia and Tiana who unfortunately always seem to be sidelined by a lot of these guest stars. Claudia does not seem to be bringing any new fans to the show so far unless a diabolical plot to her storyline unfolds which shakes up the show in a good way????? 

I wonder about that since as far as I can remember, Lucious was the one who got extremely giddy and excited when he found out that Rhonda was pregnant. He even rubbed her pregnant belly once and bought them a huge mansion with lots of perks and luxurious stuff. Rhonda even told Anika once that Lucious had opened up to her and was visiting their home often. Cookie never got quite as close to Rhonda as much as Lucious did IMO.

I agree with everything you said about the guest stars. I think she is just being what she is supposed to be as a character, and that is to help Lucious and possibly fall in love with him? But who knows if that will happen. But soon, she will go away when he regains his full and complete memory, and she won't be needed.