The Banality Of The First Evil

[Primetimer]

Sarah and John revisit their issues with Buffy's biggest bad, and wonder what might have been if Joss Whedon hadn't had 184 other plates in the air.

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[Erratic]

You liked 'Lies My Parents Told Me'?????

That is the episode of Buffy that makes every other bad episode seem great to me. 'Wrecked', 'Beer Bad', even 'Touched' seems great compared with that episode.

But I agree that the First Evil was a horrible big bad too.

[Jediknight]

 

Could the First ever could have worked, had the show had Joss's full attention and he'd done a little more thinking about the implications beforehand? Or is it just flawed in its inception? I think we thought the latter at the time; now, I wonder if maybe he couldn't have made it work, somehow.

It could have worked.  I don't know if more Joss would have been the key though.  Let's look at Angel, and the Senior Partners.  Joss didn't do as much work on Angel as he did on other shows, and still the Senior Partners worked perfectly.  They didn't physically do anything during the show's run, they instead had their underlings do it, we heard about them, and only saw a physical manifestation one time, but they were a threat.  You believed they could stomp Angel and company like a bug if they wanted to.  The amazing elevator scene in "Reprise" makes them a bigger threat than anything The First did in it's appearances, and that scene is just talking.  It's laid out right there, you can't kill them, they don't care about winning, because long after Angel's dead, they're still going to be around corrupting humanity.  And that is where The First fails massively, it's not a threat, and it was defeated by the Senior Partners.  They were trying to set up The First as the ultimate villain, the biggest challenge Buffy has ever faced, and it got throughouly stomped thanks to Wolfram & Hart.  Also we knew what the Senior Partners' apocalypse was, it was the complete and total corruption of humanity.  They didn't want the world to end, they wanted to rule and bring humanity completely around to their way.

 

Now granted the Senior Partners were always around in Angel.  They were always in the background making life miserable for Angel and company.  The First showed up in season 3 for one episode, and popped back up in season 7.  They didn't build the threat through multiple seasons.

 

And that goes to why Joss may not have helped.  Angel had the stronger group of writers.  They had a plan, saw it through, and built up the Partners as the ultimate evil Angel faced.  Buffy in the later seasons didn't have that.  And once we got to the end, the ultimate evil that Angel and company faced, was a much much much bigger threat than anything Buffy faced.

 

The key for it all would have been Joss assembling as strong of writers on Buffy.  Or at the very least the Buffy writers going to the Angel writers and asking, "How do we make something that doesn't fight to be the biggest threat to the gang?"

Edited May 21, 2014 by Jediknight

[Eegah]

For me, the absolute biggest problem of the First is that its being incorporeal meant that for any of its psychological warfare to work, every single hero had to be a complete idiot. You're seriously asking me to believe these people never once thought it might be a good idea to shake the hand of anyone you hadn't seen in a while once it became clear what the First was doing?

[Jeezaloo]

For me, the absolute biggest problem of the First is that its being incorporeal meant that for any of its psychological warfare to work, every single hero had to be a complete idiot.

 

It enacted its psychological warfare on the weak of the world, and brought their physical force to its bidding. That's a lot of force. Then, the Second (and let's call it the Second, since a Lie can only come after the Truth has been told) brought those forces to bear against its enemies, the followers of the First. The Second thought it could wage indirect warfare against the First through verbal trickery but, when it failed, brought physical brutality (legions of super-angry punchy proto-vamps) instead. The First responded to the physical brutality with clever physical brutality (a single scythe in the hands of the deft) and the minions of the Second (a liar calling itself the Truth is all that liars do) were cast aside, leaving the Second completely free to call itself the First. It's non-corporeal, it doesn't actually lose any fights except by proxy, the Second doesn't give a damn. But it's not the First.

[KirkB]

After years of Buffy and Angel I decided that all the First had was a semi-decent PR agent. Yeah, maybe it is the first evil in the world but so what? Just because it's been around longer than any of the other demons or evils doesn't put it in charge or make it the most powerful. Ilyrria, the Senior Partners, even if the First was older than any of them they were physical, powerful, and had an actual impact on the world. All things considered the First was little more than an angry ghost.

Edited May 28, 2014 by KirkB

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I'm comfortable with there not being a countervailing "good," generally, but if you're going to have a FIRST Evil, that's an origin story, and it requires either balancing (with a First Good or similar) or some explanation as to how the First came about -- preferably both. Whedon seems to have thought the concept sounded cool, and then not done the supplemental reading; it's not thought through, at all.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I didn't like the First Evil when it showed up the first time- I also thought that it wasn't the kind of thing that would warrant the First Evil's time.  When it came back for season 7, it felt as toothless to me- the uber vamps were more interesting.  I'm not sure what would have made it more evil/scary/compelling, but for me, the First Evil became the First Annoyance.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 12:37 AM, PreviouslyTV said:

Sarah and John revisit their issues with Buffy's biggest bad, and wonder what might have been if Joss Whedon hadn't had 184 other plates in the air.

Read the story

At the time the First showed up he wasn't balancing anything, didn't even have Angel yet.

On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:39 AM, Erratic said:

You liked 'Lies My Parents Told Me'?????

That is the episode of Buffy that makes every other bad episode seem great to me. 'Wrecked', 'Beer Bad', even 'Touched' seems great compared with that episode.

But I agree that the First Evil was a horrible big bad too.

LMPTM is a classic! Rated only next to Chosen on IMDB s7 page. But we'll discuss that when we reach there in the individual episode review/discussion threads. The First wasn't great but then it had little continuity, no one to play off until Caleb showed up.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 7:41 AM, Jediknight said:

It could have worked.  I don't know if more Joss would have been the key though.  Let's look at Angel, and the Senior Partners.  Joss didn't do as much work on Angel as he did on other shows, and still the Senior Partners worked perfectly.  They didn't physically do anything during the show's run, they instead had their underlings do it, we heard about them, and only saw a physical manifestation one time, but they were a threat.  You believed they could stomp Angel and company like a bug if they wanted to.  The amazing elevator scene in "Reprise" makes them a bigger threat than anything The First did in it's appearances, and that scene is just talking.  It's laid out right there, you can't kill them, they don't care about winning, because long after Angel's dead, they're still going to be around corrupting humanity.  And that is where The First fails massively, it's not a threat, and it was defeated by the Senior Partners.  They were trying to set up The First as the ultimate villain, the biggest challenge Buffy has ever faced, and it got throughouly stomped thanks to Wolfram & Hart.  Also we knew what the Senior Partners' apocalypse was, it was the complete and total corruption of humanity.  They didn't want the world to end, they wanted to rule and bring humanity completely around to their way.

 

Now granted the Senior Partners were always around in Angel.  They were always in the background making life miserable for Angel and company.  The First showed up in season 3 for one episode, and popped back up in season 7.  They didn't build the threat through multiple seasons.

 

And that goes to why Joss may not have helped.  Angel had the stronger group of writers.  They had a plan, saw it through, and built up the Partners as the ultimate evil Angel faced.  Buffy in the later seasons didn't have that.  And once we got to the end, the ultimate evil that Angel and company faced, was a much much much bigger threat than anything Buffy faced.

 

The key for it all would have been Joss assembling as strong of writers on Buffy.  Or at the very least the Buffy writers going to the Angel writers and asking, "How do we make something that doesn't fight to be the biggest threat to the gang?"

You make a good point although I would argue that The Senior Partners weren't all that invulnerable, Jasmine and the Beast stomped all over them.  

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:59 AM, Eegah said:

For me, the absolute biggest problem of the First is that its being incorporeal meant that for any of its psychological warfare to work, every single hero had to be a complete idiot. You're seriously asking me to believe these people never once thought it might be a good idea to shake the hand of anyone you hadn't seen in a while once it became clear what the First was doing?

And I agree but it did have the Bringers and Turok Han as minions to do its' dirty work, this wasn't a test of strength and brute force as one of guile on Buffy's part. 

But, whatever happened to Mr Garabaldi? 

On ‎26‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 10:20 AM, Jeezaloo said:

 

It enacted its psychological warfare on the weak of the world, and brought their physical force to its bidding. That's a lot of force. Then, the Second (and let's call it the Second, since a Lie can only come after the Truth has been told) brought those forces to bear against its enemies, the followers of the First. The Second thought it could wage indirect warfare against the First through verbal trickery but, when it failed, brought physical brutality (legions of super-angry punchy proto-vamps) instead. The First responded to the physical brutality with clever physical brutality (a single scythe in the hands of the deft) and the minions of the Second (a liar calling itself the Truth is all that liars do) were cast aside, leaving the Second completely free to call itself the First. It's non-corporeal, it doesn't actually lose any fights except by proxy, the Second doesn't give a damn. But it's not the First.

That's a good point, it may be limited by being incorporeal but that also means it's invulnerable. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:38 PM, KirkB said:

After years of Buffy and Angel I decided that all the First had was a semi-decent PR agent. Yeah, maybe it is the first evil in the world but so what? Just because it's been around longer than any of the other demons or evils doesn't put it in charge or make it the most powerful. Ilyrria, the Senior Partners, even if the First was older than any of them they were physical, powerful, and had an actual impact on the world. All things considered the First was little more than an angry ghost.

That's one way to look at it but The First was essentially the progenitor of them all. The First destroyed the Watcher's council and sought to destroy the Slayer line? You could say the Doctor is just a crazy old man (woman?) in a blue box? 

On ‎02‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 2:04 AM, Sarah D. Bunting said:

I'm comfortable with there not being a countervailing "good," generally, but if you're going to have a FIRST Evil, that's an origin story, and it requires either balancing (with a First Good or similar) or some explanation as to how the First came about -- preferably both. Whedon seems to have thought the concept sounded cool, and then not done the supplemental reading; it's not thought through, at all.

Perhaps Buffy IS the countervailing good? Or perhaps God/The PTBs are the 'benevolent Scoutmaster', wanting us to find our own way and interfering only when necessary? The Shadows and the Vorlorns? 

On ‎02‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 2:22 AM, KittenPokerCheater said:

I didn't like the First Evil when it showed up the first time- I also thought that it wasn't the kind of thing that would warrant the First Evil's time.  When it came back for season 7, it felt as toothless to me- the uber vamps were more interesting.  I'm not sure what would have made it more evil/scary/compelling, but for me, the First Evil became the First Annoyance.

It made much more sense when you learnt of Angel's role in WR&H's apocalypse? And who was really behind that image of Darla who appeared to Connor?