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MarkHB

S02.E01: Chapter Fourteen: A Kiss Before Dying

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Josie could somehow be important to the story because she's the mayor's daughter. It would only look forced and contrived if Melody and Valerie were suddenly part of the Scooby gang.

I'm trying to think about how the writers could elevate ANYONE at this point.  Archie, Veronica, Betty, Jughead, Cheryl, The Coopers, The Lodges, Penelope Blossom, FP, Kevin Keller.  Who would you cut?  A character or maybe two would have to give up screen time.  So who would get the axe?   I liked Josie's involvement last year.  We learned about her relationship with her Mother, her Father, WHY she chose Val and Melody for her band (her mother telling her to make sure Val's replacement was a woman of color but NOT as pretty as her).

It'll be interesting to see if the show chooses to elevate it's 2nd tiers into A-List Characters, are these writers capable of pulling it off or will the show fall completely apart in the attempt (See Glee, Popular from way back when and a host of other series.)

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Funny how Kevin & Cheryl are/were supposedly 'second tier' characters yet they still managed to be prominently featured in every episode.

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19 minutes ago, Dee said:

Funny how Kevin & Cheryl are/were supposedly 'second tier' characters yet they still managed to be prominently featured in every episode.

I definitely wouldn't say Kevin is featured prominently in every episode.

Cheryl was, but a big part of that is that the main plot in season 1 was the murder of her twin brother. Kind of sets her apart from the other "second tier" characters, even though she isn't part of the "core four".

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10 minutes ago, Dee said:

Funny how Kevin & Cheryl are/were supposedly 'second tier' characters yet they still managed to be prominently featured in every episode.

Cheryl is a Blossom—enough said. Kevin is the sherrif’s son and dated someone who was involved in the coverup. (He also discovered the body.) I’d be fine with seeing more of J&PCs as long as there are no storylines about a record label scout coming to Riverdale. No one’s watching this show for passable musical numbers.

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1 hour ago, secnarf said:

I definitely wouldn't say Kevin is featured prominently in every episode.

He was in every episode and was almost always featured with "the core four" or doing something to remain visible (like hosting the talent show) even when he didn't have much in the way of his own storyline, which was way more than any non-core four character (besides Cheryl) got.

His presence wasn't even necessary during the killer reveal during the finale yet there he was right along with the others.

Edited by Dee
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39 minutes ago, Dee said:

His presence wasn't even necessary during the killer reveal during the finale yet there he was right along with the others.

He was involved in the leadup to that scene, since Joaquin was part of that mystery, so it made sense for him to remain in the narrative.

I don't know if the Pussycats were originally imagined as being more involved in the Season 1 murder mystery and the writers couldn't figure out how to make it work in the implementation, or if the writers originally thought there'd be more room in the first season for stuff about the Riverdale music scene (which the infrequent attention to Archie's musical ambitions would perhaps suggest) and that just didn't pan out, or possibly a combination of both.

This particular episode concerned itself mainly with Fred's shooting, and touched on the other major dangling threads of last season's finale (Jughead and the Serpents, Cheryl's pyromania).  The return of Hiram, also amply set up last season, was the only non-aftermath segment.  Josie and co. basically didn't have a plot last season, though they had some individual focus points, so I can understand their minimal presence here since there wasn't anything urgent to pick up on.  Hopefully the writers have something better for them (and, in particular, something more directly connected to whatever this season's main arc is).

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Okay, I like the old-timey "Dr.Kildare" hospital uniforms the doctors and nurses in Riverdale wear! This show's commitment to the retro aesthetic is one of my favorite things.

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9 hours ago, Dee said:

He was in every episode and was almost always featured with "the core four" or doing something to remain visible (like hosting the talent show) even when he didn't have much in the way of his own storyline, which was way more than any non-core four character (besides Cheryl) got.

His presence wasn't even necessary during the killer reveal during the finale yet there he was right along with the others.

Well obviously YMMV but I don't think showing up in the background without any sort of actual storyline counts as "featured prominently".

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1 hour ago, secnarf said:

Well obviously YMMV but I don't think showing up in the background without any sort of actual storyline counts as "featured prominently".

Wasn't the stuff with Joaquin at least kind of like a storyline?  I mean, it clearly didn't have quite the arc that the core four got, but it did span multiple episodes.

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On 10/13/2017 at 2:23 PM, Enginerd said:

I wonder if Veronica's mispronunciation of "bon mot" is supposed to be a clue that she isn't quite the sophisticate she pretends to be. Or, rather, that much of the sophistication she has is something she's acquired through deliberate study to try to put a nicer polish on her family's obviously shady wealth, and not the life she's naturally led before moving to Riverdale. Or maybe it's just a sign that she's young and much of her attempt at maturity and wisdom is just from stuff she's read rather than lived.

 

I thought the shooter's eyes and build looked like Hal Cooper.

Not sorry to see Miss Grundy gone. Although, since that was an alias, maybe The Real Miss Grundy whose identity she stole will turn up at some point?

The Real Miss Grundy is dead. Betty i believe discovered this in the episode where fake Miss Grundy left after being exposed 

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On 10/12/2017 at 6:48 AM, Dobian said:

I have to guess once the bandages come off her skin will be smooth and supple like a moisturizer ad though, because this is magcal Riverdale fire!  

Cover Girl ad.

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On 10/11/2017 at 6:18 PM, Affogato said:

They didn't want everyone to know she was showing up?

Nah - we already saw her in her first scene before the opening credit roll.

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Very strong premiere.  Def seems like the break helped them to assess what was/wasn't working and they've ironed out a lot of the kinks (esp in terms of KJ/Archie).  The only thing that was a huge misfire for me though was the Barchie shower scene.  I just don't think making out in the shower would be anywhere on my mind after an attempted murder on my father.

I  know Twin Peaks was a major source of inspiration for the show since early development and i wonder if any of the newer episodes might factor in - during Fred's coma dream of the dead relatives knocking on the door, i was heavily reminded of "The Mother" knocking at the door in the mauve world from nuPeaks episode 3.

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Cheryl is a Blossom—enough said. Kevin is the sherrif’s son and dated someone who was involved in the coverup. (He also discovered the body.) I’d be fine with seeing more of J&PCs as long as there are no storylines about a record label scout coming to Riverdale. No one’s watching this show for passable musical numbers.

That's for damn sure. Ugh.  The singing was the one downside from last years season.  That includes the singing by Archie and Veronica.  Just no, please.  

Though I do hope we get more Kevin and Veronica this year.  They were my favorite friendship.  Betty and Veronica are tight but I get the impression Betty wants to roll her eyes when dealing with her (doesn't make their friendship less genuine) whereas Kevin always seemed to get a kick out of her even when she was being ridiculous.  I'll never forget when she was telling him about her mean girl past and when she paused for dramatic effect, Kevin's "Uh oh, do we need to sit down." cracked me up.

If there was one downside to this premier, it was the little amount of Kevin we got.  I hope he isn't shortchanged this year.  He really can be a highlight.

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On 10/12/2017 at 11:41 AM, Chick2Chic said:

I am side-eyeing that Josie, Valerie, Melody, and Reggie got a combined total of one minute of screentime in the ep. This is why I don't trust all those media interviews with the showrunners promising to actually write for the characters of color (who aren't the Lodges) in S2.

 

This is correct.  Show runners will talk a good talk about diversity, but in the end the show is like most CW shows, about pretty, white people.

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On 10/12/2017 at 4:32 PM, AnimeMania said:

I thought in the previews Archie comes out of the restroom and the gunman turns the gun towards Archie and then you hear the gunshot. It is possible that the gunman was trying to shoot Archie and Fred jumped in front of the bullet. Archie may not have even realized there was a gun until his father was shot. This doesn't explain why the gunman didn't shoot Archie afterward, but it might explain the connection with Ms. Grundy. 

That's kind of great. I can't recall what NotGrundy's real name was, but perhaps the killer really IS (or was) after her, and also her "boyfriends", not from his point of view seeing them as her victims. Did we see her latest actually get home safely? It could also explain the difference in method. The way he killed NotGrundy was personal, and the attack on Archie (if that's what it in fact was) was less so.

 

On 10/13/2017 at 5:22 PM, Chick2Chic said:

If TPTB bothered to put in the effort, all of the underused characters can be woven in as well as matter on their own merit and not in relation to someone else's subjective 'value.' With the show having multiple arcs feeding an overall story, there's no excuse not to incorporate. 

They DID say they would try to incorporate the "diverse" characters into the storylines this season, and this was only the opening episode. Give them a chance. They are working with Reggie 2.0, so that is a challenge already, the source material only has one black 'cat, and TPTB probably consider Kevin an example of diversity in his own right, and many of us were not easily incorporated into past soaps, as we generally do not work in the mixing up the couples formula. Besides, if they can do a spin-off for Sabrina, no reason not to look into a spin-off for Josie and the 'Cats, just as in the comics.

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On 13.10.2017 at 8:57 PM, sugarbaker design said:

Right, like she's book smart.  She's seen bon mot in print but has no idea how to pronounce it.

Which scene was that? I must've missed it

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7 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

That's kind of great. I can't recall what NotGrundy's real name was, but perhaps the killer really IS (or was) after her, and also her "boyfriends", not from his point of view seeing them as her victims. Did we see her latest actually get home safely?

Jennifer Gibson. I think her student had barely left when the killer showed up.

1 hour ago, lorbeer said:

Which scene was that? I must've missed it

In the hospital, Betty suggests Veronica go home with Archie. Veronica lists things she’s good at (e.g. dropping bon mots) and says being a good girlfriend isn’t one of them. Something like that.

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I think Josie and the pc and Kevin have a lot of potential and I really hope tptb won't just let them be sidelined or unutilized. They have parents that are directly involved with all the drama that happening on the show so I mean, how do they feel and fit in with all of that? I mean Kevin must be a bit miffed if a bunch of high schoolers solved a case for daddy sheriff?! Or that his dad is or was a lackey to the blossoms... and Josie and pc, they could have so potential with the mayor and all the shady deals she has been doing....

if it's going to be all about music then damn it, give them their own show and leave it at that....

And with the shower scene. . Yeah  it was hot but unfitting with the mood.... veronica was trying her best to cheer him up in what way she could do best... 

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18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

This is correct.  Show runners will talk a good talk about diversity, but in the end the show is like most CW shows, about pretty, white people.

Agreed.  

Does this board have a race/gender thread?  I think it needs it - I just wrote out a long rant and don't want to bog this thread down.

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On 10/13/2017 at 9:04 PM, Advance35 said:

I'm trying to think about how the writers could elevate ANYONE at this point.  Archie, Veronica, Betty, Jughead, Cheryl, The Coopers, The Lodges, Penelope Blossom, FP, Kevin Keller.  Who would you cut?  A character or maybe two would have to give up screen time.  So who would get the axe?   I liked Josie's involvement last year.  We learned about her relationship with her Mother, her Father, WHY she chose Val and Melody for her band (her mother telling her to make sure Val's replacement was a woman of color but NOT as pretty as her).

It'll be interesting to see if the show chooses to elevate it's 2nd tiers into A-List Characters, are these writers capable of pulling it off or will the show fall completely apart in the attempt (See Glee, Popular from way back when and a host of other series.)

Could do a series of say six episodes starring the pussycats, own arc that connects casually to main arcs, spread out. A Zeppo ep with Reggie. Or Kevin would be perfect for that. 

Edited by Affogato
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14 hours ago, BaskingsharkGTX said:

Ummm, the same people who have shower sex when the guy's father's blood is swirling down the drain..?

????.... quite unromantic when you think about it! ??

 

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Could do a series of say six episodes starring the pussycats, own arc that connects casually to main arcs, spread out. A Zeppo ep with Reggie. Or Kevin would be perfect for that. 

That would be nice but a.bit boring unless you're invested in those characters... a nice way to lose viewers i think(havent they done that on other shows?).... 

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52 minutes ago, PeekaBoo said:

????.... quite unromantic when you think about it! ??

 

That would be nice but a.bit boring unless you're invested in those characters... a nice way to lose viewers i think(havent they done that on other shows?).... 

People like Kevin and he is xanderesque, to (gack) coin a phrase. He's already had dating adventures and I know I'm rooting for him and he's Betty's confidant. I'm confident he can carry episodes and will get some.

The 'cats haven't caught on, I think, and that's a problem that I don't think is entirely the writing. Theyhad screen time and sub plot but are not as memorable as they need to be. I bet all those music subplots were to give them more story in later seasons but the charisma may be lacking. 

Dont throw things.....

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I'd rather see Archie and Val get back together. Verchie has no chemistry. 

What happened to grandma Blossom? I liked that little old lady. 

How old are these kids supposed to be? Archie doesn't have a driver's license. Is he supposed to be 15/16? And his dad (in a previous ep) seemed to have no issue with him spending the night at Veronica's? And what kid (Betty) tells her mom that she didn't do the deed with Juggie but almost did? Most kids would say, "We didn't do it," and leave it at that. TMI and they aren't even a close knit mother/daughter pair. Was it to throw salt on the fire since her sister got knocked up by Jason? Is it her way of pronouncing, "I can also try be on Teen Mom!"

Is it me or is Madchen's skin looking more refreshed this season?

Yay for Fred surviving! 

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I think Betty was just trying to push Alice’s buttons when she was telling her what happened or didn’t happen the night before. As for Fred, I think he can only really do a “pick his battles” re Archie and Veronica and tell his son to be safe and all that. And I think they are 15/16, they are sophomores.

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11 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I'd rather see Archie and Val get back together. Verchie has no chemistry. 

What happened to grandma Blossom? I liked that little old lady. 

How old are these kids supposed to be? Archie doesn't have a driver's license. Is he supposed to be 15/16? And his dad (in a previous ep) seemed to have no issue with him spending the night at Veronica's? And what kid (Betty) tells her mom that she didn't do the deed with Juggie but almost did? Most kids would say, "We didn't do it," and leave it at that. TMI and they aren't even a close knit mother/daughter pair. Was it to throw salt on the fire since her sister got knocked up by Jason? Is it her way of pronouncing, "I can also try be on Teen Mom!"

Is it me or is Madchen's skin looking more refreshed this season?

Yay for Fred surviving! 

I don't get much chemistry from Archie with anyone, but this episode his father was just shot. He shouldn't have any, gratuitous shower scene notwithstanding. 

Archie would have his drivers license if he was old enough. Which means he was 14 or 15 on construction site. Of course it was his dad's site. 

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So this is going to be an issue for me. That Wednesday at 8:00 pm move cuts into Survivor's time and even though so far this season of Survivor has been kind of boring, it still takes precedence over Riverdale. What was really odd for me is that I kind of didn't feel any rush or eagerness to download the episode and didn't really watch it until this weekend. And I still haven't watched the entire thing in one sitting. I've mostly just watched some clips.  Something was just off for me with most of what I saw. 

I actually did think Archie and Veronica had decent chemistry last season but yeah, wasn't feeling it at all this episode. And yeah that whole shower seduction while his father is possibly dying/fighting for his life was not remotely sexy or whatever it was the writers thought they were going for.

And holy bad writing. WTF was up with most of that dialogue in Jughead's narration? Like I couldn't figure out if this was the writers embracing the camp and silliness of the show and deliberately choosing to be as corny as possible or if they truly thought these lines were good. Because they weren't. 

I also found something a bit off with Jughead and Betty's chemistry. I wonder if this is case of the urban legend that once two actors get together, they lose the chemistry they had when they weren't. Maybe last season, it was just attraction between them but things didn't become official until this past summer. There was just a weird awkwardness between them that I couldn't really put my finger on. The kiss at the end was sweet though.

About the only things I did love was Cheryl who continues to be fabulous in every way. Love her in all her batshit crazy glory. Not to mention she's freaking gorgeous to look at. I also find the murder of Grundy interesting in that we certainly didn't see it coming. No great loss though in my opinion since this episode confirmed that Archie was not a one time thing and Grundy was a certified predator and statutory rapist. 

 

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Archie doesn't have a driver's license?  Wasn't he driving all the time last season?  

I could have sworn he did but I do remember that in the flashback when Grundy first zeroed in on him, she offered him a ride as he was walking home from his summer job at his dad's construction company. So who knows. 

 

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Also, where was Polly?

 

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She went back to the 1960's for a visit to her old pals in the Home for Unwed Mothers.

We can only hope. I said it at the end of last season, that with the mystery of who murdered Jason solved, I didn't see any purpose that Polly served anymore. She can have her babies off screen and we can just get references to her and them but we don't need to see her, in my opinion. 

 

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I agree on Josie and Friends.  I think the stories should be woven out of the core four or one of them.   Nothing will kill a show faster then "Everyone is an A-list character.". Ask Ryan Murphy.  2nd tier characters should rotate.  The only Pussycat I feel I don't have a sense of is Melody and I'm hardly on the edge of my seat.

I honestly cannot off the top of my head think of any show with a large cast of characters where they were all given equal screen time and focus. You always had the top tier characters and supporting characters. Other than a show like Degrassi where there were a lot of individualized episodes that focused on a particular character and/or characters. But for a show like this one that has its main characters, I cannot think of any where the writers manage to give equal focus to everyone.

Even with the Archie comics, while admittedly I haven't read the more modernized ones as much, when I read the old ones, I specifically remember that there were specialized editions to focus on Josie and the Pussycats, same with Sabrina. They essentially all ended up having spin off issues but in the regular Archie comics, they were often just side bar characters referenced in passing here and there. I absolutely get representation and I really have no desire to have this long discussion/debate. 

But while I can absolutely see giving Josie more focus, especially with her mom being the Mayor and the little we saw of Robin Givens was great so definitely interested in that dynamic, I just don't think it's necessary for Melody and Valerie to have the same screen time and focus as characters like Jughead or Cheryl. If the writers can truly organically weave all these characters in, in a way that makes sense, fine and kudos to them. But I don't see it happening. And no matter what, guaranteed, other characters will get sidelined. I just do not realistically see any way that all of these people will get the same narrative focus and screen time, even with a full season pickup. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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46 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I could have sworn he did but I do remember that in the flashback when Grundy first zeroed in on him, she offered him a ride as he was walking home from his summer job at his dad's construction company. So who knows. 

I can't recall a time last season when Archie was driving. I do remember another scene where he ran to Miss Grundy's place with no shirt on and shorts/his boxers, which I found hilarious. 

We've seen Jughead and Betty drive for sure, though, so it's possible Archie just turned sixteen recently so he hasn't gotten even his permit. I think we've seen Veronica drive too, but I can't quite recall. 

49 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I also found something a bit off with Jughead and Betty's chemistry. I wonder if this is case of the urban legend that once two actors get together, they lose the chemistry they had when they weren't. Maybe last season, it was just attraction between them but things didn't become official until this past summer. There was just a weird awkwardness between them that I couldn't really put my finger on. The kiss at the end was sweet though. About the only things I did love was Cheryl who continues to be fabulous in every way. Love her in all her batshit crazy glory. Not to mention she's freaking gorgeous to look at. I also do find the murder of Grundy interesting in that we certainly didn't see it coming. No great loss though in my opinion since this episode confirmed that Archie was certainly not a one time thing and Grundy was a certified predator and statutory rapist. 

I kind of agree with you, but they didn't really get much opportunity to really share any scenes together, besides their end scene. Otherwise, they were really just there to be Archie's moral support. i'm hoping it was just a premiere fluke and we'll get back to them next episode. 

Cheryl surprises me. I'm not totally in love with her, but I do enjoy her and her batshit crazy. I've learned to just embrace the crazy and not think of her like some normal teenage girl. They're intentionally using her to be odd, crazy, and downright suspicious.

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I don’t remember seeing any of them drive before this episode, but maybe I wasn’t paying attention. I just assumed Riverdale is very walkable.

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I recall the S1 off screen drama between Archie and Jughead stemming from a planned road trip Archie forgot about. Was Jughead going to drive them both around for the entire trip? Jughead drove his drunk dad home last season but that only implies having a license to drive.

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Wasn't Archie driving the red truck when the high school boys all showed up to do the demolition work for Fred? I wondered whose truck it was. I assumed that Archie and most of the kids have a license but not their own cars, so they walk most of the time.  That was very much the norm when I was a teen in a small town-you learned to drive and got a license, but just borrowed a car from your parents when the occasion warranted it, or they let you drive sometimes to get practice. But most of the time you walked or biked or took the bus. Who drove when they went to the Whyte Wyrm? I can't remember. And Archie and Jughead were planning a road trip, so they must be able to drive.

15/16 is still young enough that Fred shouldn't be quite so thumbs-up about his son sleeping over at his girlfriend's house, but he isn't a regular dad, he's a cool dad. *Eyeroll* But it's The CW, where precocious teens both look like and behave like 20-somethings, and often get married before they finish high school.

One thing I find odd is that, aside from extremely elderly Nana Blossom, there don't seem to be any grandparents around. Most of the parents grew up in Riverdale and are about the same age. Shouldn't some of their parents still be around, hale and hearty and maybe 60ish? Jughead's mother's parents are apparently in Toledo. What about the rest of them? Did they all see how rotten Riverdale is and flee? Did they all die young of maple syrup overdoses?

I think Josie, Val, and Melody could be made a lot more interesting and have more of a prominent role in the series. For musicians, they've been pretty one-note so far. Josie is controlling and hostile, Val  seems to want more but is given no rein to explore that; Melody is just there.  But they SHOULD be more interesting, with their ties to the mayor, and having worked at a record label (when? When they were 13? 14?), and they could be given any number of ties to other things happening in the town. If you want a diverse show, you can't just have your diversity lurking in the background and only give it a stage when the main characters are done and there are a few minutes left to kill. It has to be integral.

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Remember Paul Sowerberry, the Lodges' lawyer? Anyone else think he might be the shooter? He has a similar look to what we saw of the eyes/eyebrows/physique. Maybe he runs a REALLY full-service practice!

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11 hours ago, Enginerd said:

I think Josie, Val, and Melody could be made a lot more interesting and have more of a prominent role in the series. For musicians, they've been pretty one-note so far. Josie is controlling and hostile, Val  seems to want more but is given no rein to explore that; Melody is just there.  But they SHOULD be more interesting, with their ties to the mayor, and having worked at a record label (when? When they were 13? 14?), and they could be given any number of ties to other things happening in the town.

If the show knows what’s good for it, it’ll avoid any talk of record labels, showcases, battle of the bands, etc.

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Just a reminder to keep the conversation in this thread confined to the episode at hand. Discussion of the characters themselves, particularly if it has nothing whatsoever to do with the events of this episode, should be moved to the characters' own threads. (And if that character doesn't have their own thread, feel free to create one.)

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Riverdale is my guilty pleasure.  I'm glad Luke Perry is still in because he's the reason I decided to try the show out in the first place.  Looking forward to season two.  I'm thinking that the big reveal about Betty having a brother out there somewhere might play a part in this season??  

This first episode was decent.  Like others, I could have forgone the "sexy shower scene".  It just made me roll my eyes and fast forward.  Some eye rolling also ensued at the end when Archie was guarding the door with a bat.  I mean, really? But over all looking forward to the next episode.

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9 hours ago, Pandorap said:

Some eye rolling also ensued at the end when Archie was guarding the door with a bat. 

I nearly choked on my laughter at that scene. When he like stomped the bat on the ground (or was it his hand). Archie is the least intimidating person on earth so that scene, him being the big protector, just cracked my shit up. 

I'm curious about Fake Grundy getting killed as well. Like maybe she was the real target and Archie was a target because of his relationship with her and it's going to have nothing to do with Fred or his work or the Lodges. 

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On 10/12/2017 at 7:30 PM, secnarf said:

Prior to this episode, in an interview someone from the show likened it to "The Body" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I have to say, I didn't get that at all.

Wait what? No. Nope. Nada. I love this show, it is crack but it did not, does not compare to Buffy, ESPECIALLY a classic like The Body. That episode will forever make me feel a bit sick to my stomach. It's briliiant but a HARD watch.

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On 10/17/2017 at 7:39 PM, Mabinogia said:

I nearly choked on my laughter at that scene. When he like stomped the bat on the ground (or was it his hand). Archie is the least intimidating person on earth so that scene, him being the big protector, just cracked my shit up.

It reminds me of Finn Jones as the Iron Fist trying to be intimidating on Iron Fist/The Defenders. Sorry Archie, but you're a puppy. A really, really cute puppy, but a puppy nonetheless.

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I dunno, it's still super weird to me that they continue to write scenes where a crisis happens, and then Val, who dated Archie (!), doesn't even speak a word to him, just nods like a mute stranger.  It makes me feel creepy from all angles including a general aesthetic one, because the writers clearly don't want anyone to get any ideas about an Archie relationship outside of Veronica (IMO), which is poor putting-their-thumb-on-the-scale practice.

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