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GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself


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33 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I want to say...almost immediately. After the initial denial, telling Stone and Mac. My mind is just so full of how she was with Stone, helping him to deal with his diagnosis, that I can't pin point the scene when she started the protocol.

Thanks! I've seen the scene where Jason convinces her to do it, because it would reduce the likelihood of her developing AIDS, I just didn't know when it was. 

BTW, is that the blooming cherry blossoms in our lovely nations capital you have in your avatar? I know you're in Maryland, too, although I'm a bit further away from DC than you are, and I wish I could get there to see them in person. 🙂

Edited by UYI
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5 minutes ago, UYI said:

Thanks! I've seen the scene where Jason convinces her to do it, because it would reduce the likelihood of her developing AIDS, I just didn't know when it was. 

BTW, is that the blooming cherry blossoms in our lovely nations capital you have in your avatar? I know you're in Maryland, too, although I'm a bit further away from DC than you are, and I wish I could get there to see them in person. 🙂

Well, hell. If Jason was convincing her to do it, I wonder if that means she refused to while Stone was still alive? Because Jason Morgan was "born" about four months or so after Stone died. I really don't have time to go down that rabbit hole!

And yes, these are the pinkest of the Cherry Blossoms from this year! I went with a friend last Saturday, and they were GLORIOUS! Some of course, were still the white blossoms and the ones with a hint of pink. I was at the Tidal Basin and we walked the entire loop to the Jefferson Memorial and back. The blossoms lasted until Tuesday or Wednesday. They be gone now.☹️ I wish their "life" expectancy lasted more than two weeks!

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Found the scenes! Yes, they're from 1996 and J&R were together by then. Alan told her about it the day before she left for Yale. 

Edited by UYI
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On 4/11/2019 at 11:58 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Of course this is VERY UNPOPULAR, but the reason why they kept Anthony Geary, when he was supposed to have been killed off after raping Laura, was because of the crazy chemistry between him and Genie. For all that he trashed Luke and Laura and their fans, every time Genie returned, they sizzled. And he actually lit up when she came back engaged to Scotty that last time. 

Yes, chemistry is subjective, but some actors just have IT and it comes across the screen. Tristan and Emma; Tristan and Finola. Jonathan and Becky. Some are just chemistry magnets like Kimberly McCullough.

And I can’t help it-I LOVED Luke and Laura.

We can’t ignore the fact that Anthony Geary was largely (and perhaps solely) kept on for logistical reasons. Gloria Monty had big plans for the actor who played Roy.  But the actor who played Roy got a prime-time series and said syanara. So, instead of killing Luke off after the assassination attempt, Gloria killed off Roy.  She had a gap to fill in terms of a leading man, here was an actor she liked working with, and, yes, Luke was getting a surprisingly good reception (Luke’s palpable remorsefulness after the rape resonated with may fans). Without Roy getting killed though, Gloria may have stayed with her original plan, and there never would have been any Luke and Laura. 

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I DO think it's noteworthy, though, that there were absolutely zero rape stories on the show between Luke & Laura in 1979 and Liz being raped in the park by Tom in 1998. There were stories of women had rape in their backstory--Camellia McKay in 1987 (she was a nun who befriended Duke, and was played by a pre-GL Liz Keifer), Karen Wexler in 1993--but it was just that, a part of their backstory, something that happened off screen (and in Karen's case in particular, she was still a child when the abuse took place).

I mean, I'm not complaining about a lack of rape stories by any means, far from it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason the show stayed away from them until Liz's rape in 1998 was the GIANT elephant in the room that the last time there was a rape on this show, the duo in question fell in love, the rape was re-framed by the show as being a "seduction", and everyone in America watched their wedding. They probably had no choice but to tie Liz's rape to Lucky finding out what had happened to his parents, because otherwise, they risked a MAJOR backlash and being branded as hypocrites.

I mean, it's just a guess. 

(OTOH, I guess the conception of Nikolas counts as Laura being raped by Stavros, too, which is also really sad.)

Edited by UYI
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2 hours ago, UYI said:

(OTOH, I guess the conception of Nikolas counts as Laura being raped by Stavros, too, which is also really sad.)

Which one of the reasons why I wished they kept it that it was Stefan and not Stavros was the father. Sure, Laura was still a prisoner of the Cassadines, but she still chose to be with Stefan.

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20 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Which one of the reasons why I wished they kept it that it was Stefan and not Stavros was the father. Sure, Laura was still a prisoner of the Cassadines, but she still chose to be with Stefan.

Wish they kept it...? You mean, that was the original idea and they chose to retcon it to Stavros?

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55 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Wish they kept it...? You mean, that was the original idea and they chose to retcon it to Stavros?

They said it was Stavros, but Stefan was always fatherly with Nikolas. Always. Then they started to show flashbacks of Stefan and Laura strolling on the beach on Cassadine Island. It was revealed that they had a secret romance during her captivity and it explained so much in how Stefan reacted to Laura when she first showed up.

We were told that Stefan confirmed that Nikolas was his son when he was born, but he kept it a secret because he didn't want Nikolas to be disinherited from the Cassadine legacy. When the truth came out, it cause a whole lot of drama. Nikolas was so disappointed that Stefan had lied to him his entire life, because he always considered him to be his father.

But then the show decided to retcon that again by having Helena a year or so later that she switched the results and Stavros was really the father which served zero story possibilities as Stavros was dead at the time and they had already done that story when Nikolas had first shown up as Stavros and Laura's son.

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5 hours ago, UYI said:

I DO think it's noteworthy, though, that there were absolutely zero rape stories on the show between Luke & Laura in 1979 and Liz being raped in the park by Tom in 1998. There were stories of women had rape in their backstory--Camellia McKay in 1987 (she was a nun who befriended Duke, and was played by a pre-GL Liz Keifer), Karen Wexler in 1993--but it was just that, a part of their backstory, something that happened off screen (and in Karen's case in particular, she was still a child when the abuse took place).

I mean, I'm not complaining about a lack of rape stories by any means, far from it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason the show stayed away from them until Liz's rape in 1998 was the GIANT elephant in the room that the last time there was a rape on this show, the duo in question fell in love, the rape was re-framed by the show as being a "seduction", and everyone in America watched their wedding. They probably had no choice but to tie Liz's rape to Lucky finding out what had happened to his parents, because otherwise, they risked a MAJOR backlash and being branded as hypocrites.

I mean, it's just a guess. 

(OTOH, I guess the conception of Nikolas counts as Laura being raped by Stavros, too, which is also really sad.)

My take is that the storyline was a product of the times kind of thing. Way too many "good" female lead character on daytime soaps in the 1980s, in order to give her a storyline. Kayla on Days; Eden on SB; Sarah Gordon on OLTL.  Rape was used a plot device not just with L&L -- and the original intention at the time was to have the rape to be an obstacle in the Scotty and Laura relationship, but throughout daytime.  It was either that or have them go blind (I remember Meg Ryan running through the litany of ailments they put her "good" character Betsy through on ATWT). 

So why did GH back away after that? My completely unscientific answer: They didn't have the traditional female "lead" character in the 1980s.  Genie left and was replaced by Emma Samms. And Emma played a flawed character -- she was a con artist sleeping with Luke to help her family in some oil scam. So the writers didn't need to go to the, and I mean this with condescension toward the writers, "rape" well. 

The same was true when Anna came on. She wasn't a traditional "good" female lead. She had secrets, etc., that served as a catalyst for drama.  But even with that, in several of the storylines it was the threat of getting raped that created the tension.  In the "Snowman" storyline in the late 1980s, Anna was held captive for weeks by mad Grant Putnam. And we, the viewers, weren't worried that Anna would be killed. But there was an ever lurking threat of rape.  

I think Dawn would have been the character who would have most fit the paradigm of female "god" lead who the writers victimize in order to give a storyline. Thankfully, her storyline was more adventurous (as was Felicia's).  In Felicia's case, Felicia was brought in as a love interest for an already well-liked male star (Jack Wagner), and the drama was caused by him.  Then, his leaving gave Felicia subsequent material.  Aside from make her crippled a few weeks, they had more character-driven storylines and didn't have to rely on victimization. 

I do think that GH writers did take seriously the idea that any undertaking of a rape storyline would have to be handled on adult terms with no short shrift to the impact on the victim while at the same time showing compassion to the victim. That's a lot of heavy lifting, and thankfully they found a good writer who could recognize the right beats that needed to be played in order to be realistic but not off-putting to the audience. 

However, there was a troubling trend in the 1990s when it came to rape. Rather than being an injustice suffered on the "good" young woman, it was used to rehabilitate a "bad" character.  Marty on OLTL.  I'm blanking on the rest, but I recall that being a disturbing trend. To the extent that Elizabeth's storyline was greenlit in part as a rehabilitation tool, that is troubling. 

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8 minutes ago, Francie said:

Marty on OLTL.  I'm blanking on the rest, but I recall that being a disturbing trend. To the extent that Elizabeth's storyline was greenlit in part as a rehabilitation tool, that is troubling. 

AMC had not one, not two, but THREE women who had that storyline--Natalie, Gloria, and Kit (although Natalie's was in the late 80's, not the 90's). Gross. 

Edited by UYI
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3 hours ago, LexieLily said:

Wish they kept it...? You mean, that was the original idea and they chose to retcon it to Stavros?

Nikolas was ostensibly Stavros' son from the beginning. But Stefan being his father was teased also pretty much from the beginning. IIRC, the very first confrontation between Stefan and Laura hinted at their history. And I believe the reveal - to the audience, not to any other characters - was fairly early, too. I think it was after Lucky accidentally pushed Nikolas down the stairs and in the hospital Stefan called the unconscious Nikolas "my son." Stefan was the only one who knew for a long while. Like a few years after they showed up at least. Even Laura wasn't sure until he used that info to blackmail her out of town (this was Genie's maternity leave, I think.)

I was so annoyed when they re-retconned that.

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Them deciding to retcon it again was weird as heck. 

3 hours ago, nilyank said:

They said it was Stavros, but Stefan was always fatherly with Nikolas. Always. Then they started to show flashbacks of Stefan and Laura strolling on the beach on Cassadine Island. It was revealed that they had a secret romance during her captivity and it explained so much in how Stefan reacted to Laura when she first showed up.

That wasn't quite it. The flashback didn't show a romance, they just showed a friendship and Stefan said he had had feelings for Laura. That was late 96, under Guza. Then around May 97, under Culliton, they retconned it to Stefan and Laura had sex and could possibly be Nikolas' dad. He blackmailed her with that to get Laura to leave town. Then when Guza came back they said it was Stefan ( @Melgaypet that is when Stefan said my son, after Nik got shot ), but then they changed it again. Which, if that was about Guza wanting to retcon it back he could have done that when he returned, so it was odd. Maybe he was toying with bringing Stavros back himself, maybe Stephen Nichols parked in his parking space.

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6 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Them deciding to retcon it again was weird as heck. 

That wasn't quite it. The flashback didn't show a romance, they just showed a friendship and Stefan said he had had feelings for Laura. That was late 96, under Guza. Then around May 97, under Culliton, they retconned it to Stefan and Laura had sex and could possibly be Nikolas' dad. He blackmailed her with that to get Laura to leave town. Then when Guza came back they said it was Stefan ( @Melgaypet that is when Stefan said my son, after Nik got shot ), but then they changed it again. Which, if that was about Guza wanting to retcon it back he could have done that when he returned, so it was odd. Maybe he was toying with bringing Stavros back himself, maybe Stephen Nichols parked in his parking space.

I watched it all live, and I was HUGELY addicted to that storyline.  I think I still have an self-edited version on VHS somewhere in a box. The original flashbacks left open the possibility that Stefan and Laura had developed into more than a friendship. 

There were 3 flashbacks, all clearly shot on the same day at the same rest stop on Pacific Coast Highway but intended to be from 3 separate days of Laura's captivity. The first is when Laura and Stefan first talk. The final one of the three is where there's an obvious connection, and Laura doesn't understand why Stefan abruptly left without saying anything. The speculation all over the internet, including the original port-charles.com was that the show was hinting that they had willingly slept together (as his abrupt exit was after they had consummated their relationship). Fan fics abounded filling in the possible details. I'm positive that was the writers' intention at the time, and they were slowly building to a reveal that Stefan could at least be Nikolas's father. 

Then Guza left, and Culliton and what's her name? took over. Genie was pregnant and wanted a long vacation while carrying, so they threw out Guza's carefully constructed story.  They had Stefan going around and threatening to take away Laura's "love" (meaning he would tell Luke that they had hooked up and that Nikolas was conceived out of their affair).  The writers also carelessly tossed aside all the small crumbs building up to Stefan and Katherine and rammed them together in the most embarrassing and shameless ode to Wuthering Heights and bodice ripper novels and ... daytime soap operas. It was like a gift-wrapped present to anyone who wanted ammunition for hating daytime soap operas. 

TLDR:  Guza laid out foundation for Nikolas being Stefan's, but he didn't make it obvious. Others after ran with it. 

P.S. Fun fact:  GH's public relations person at the time answered an online question about why Genie was taking a several-month vacation BEFORE birth (this was before she wound up taking an extra long break AFTER birth, too).  The poor sap answered, and I kid you fucking not, that Genie tended to gain weight in her face, implying either that she didn't want to be seen on camera like that or that TPTB feared that they couldn't adequately hide that she was pregnant. He was promptly fired.  

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4 hours ago, UYI said:

AMC had not one, not two, but THREE women who had that storyline--Natalie, Gloria, and Kit (although Natalie's was in the late 80's, not the 90's). Gross. 

What I've found especially cruel about these Redemption via Rape storylines is that nearly every single woman this has happened to has begun to show signs of her humanity BEFORE.

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2 minutes ago, Camille said:

What I've found especially cruel about these Redemption via Rape storylines is that nearly every single woman this has happened to has begun to show signs of her humanity BEFORE.

Yep. To bring it back specifically to this show, if you look at scenes of Liz just prior to her rape, she was already less bratty/bitchy than she had been in the beginning. 

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On 4/14/2019 at 8:13 PM, UYI said:

Yep. To bring it back specifically to this show, if you look at scenes of Liz just prior to her rape, she was already less bratty/bitchy than she had been in the beginning. 

Yes. It was obviously that she genuinely liked Lucky and was hurt that he was completely oblivious to her and only had eyes for Sarah. Just another thing that cemented her position as The Unfavorite.

And over on OLTL, Marty had taken on a "big sister" role to Jessica.

Edited by Camille
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I have a history related question that ties back to the current Anna is worried that Alex may be the birth mother of Robin story. Was it ever explained-- on GH or AMC-- why Alex hates Anna?  or has she always been EEEEEEEEVIL, in the way that Ryan was always the EVIL twin and Kevin the good twin? 

I was never an AMC watcher and I missed several chunks of GH-- so I have no knowledge of Anna's twin at all, except that she exists.

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2 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

I have a history related question that ties back to the current Anna is worried that Alex may be the birth mother of Robin story. Was it ever explained-- on GH or AMC-- why Alex hates Anna?  or has she always been EEEEEEEEVIL, in the way that Ryan was always the EVIL twin and Kevin the good twin? 

I was never an AMC watcher and I missed several chunks of GH-- so I have no knowledge of Anna's twin at all, except that she exists.

This is probably the only part of this I can answer--no, she was not always evil at all, not on AMC at least. They didn't use that stereotype on the twins then at all. At most, her personality was more aloof/less warm than Anna's, but that's it.  

Edited by UYI
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@UYI has it right. Alex was not evil on AMC. What I remember was she ended up married to Dimitri Merrick and was a surgeon and was, as stated, more aloof. But she wasn't bad. GH hacks are just their usual uncreative selves and have made Alex into an evil cliché.

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Umm, so GH has created a set-up were they've swapped the memories of several sets of twins - with one eeeevil twin and one good twin. I wonder what this means for our resident sainted Hitman.

Also, why didn't they just make RoHo Franco's twin? Everyone could've been uncomfortable with his presence without him being a rapist/kidnapper/stalker/SERIAL KILLER who interacts with his victims on a daily basis

Edited by Oracle42
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On AMC, Alex resented Anna because while they were seperated at birth and Anna didn't know, Alex was raised by their aunt to be a spy like Anna, and constantly seen as lesser, not as good, which led to there being some impersonation throughout the years.  Alex having played Anna in the past was not new information, but the extent and Alex being so over the top hateful is.

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On 4/14/2019 at 1:03 PM, UYI said:

AMC had not one, not two, but THREE women who had that storyline--Natalie, Gloria, and Kit (although Natalie's was in the late 80's, not the 90's). Gross. 

Don’t forget Julia! She was more of a rebellious wild child than a bad girl, but I hate how they “sanctified” her with the rape.

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So I fell down an Internet rabbit hole earlier this week and I have an old-school GH question: what was the deal with Jessie and Phil Brewer? He cheated on her a bunch but they also got back together time and time again. What was Phil’s deal? Love? Control? Duty? If you had to compare their dynamic to a “modern” soap couple (‘80s-on) who would you pick?

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Alex's ridiculous storyline on AMC involved years of brainwashing to become a trained assassin and impersonate Anna while working for their mother's evil intelligence agency. IIRC she'd spent some time in a sanitarium before coming onto the show due to those mental issues. It is not a stretch to me that Alex would turn out to be crazy years later due to that upbringing and very dark past, and go full villain. But the even more stupid thing is that to my knowledge (and I'm not watching atm) they have never bothered to explain this change in her character with even two lines of dialogue. It is very easy and very plausible, but they won't do it, we have to fill in the gaps.

Dimitri Marick mentioned Alex briefly on AMC 2.0 in 2013, and said he'd divorced her.

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On 4/18/2019 at 8:38 PM, Oracle42 said:

Also, why didn't they just make RoHo Franco's twin? Everyone could've been uncomfortable with his presence without him being a rapist/kidnapper/stalker/SERIAL KILLER who interacts with his victims on a daily basis

That's also the same exact story GH did in 1993 with Ryan & Kevin, though (before they got to know who Kevin really was). Although I guess in this case, repeating that story would have been better than the alternative, so...

Edited by UYI
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Thank you for clarifying that Jsbt.

I always liked Alex on AMC.  She was understandably cold and aloof, but a nice person.  I have real issues with her on GH, along with just about everyone else. Fuck GH.

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18 hours ago, jsbt said:

Alex's ridiculous storyline on AMC involved years of brainwashing to become a trained assassin and impersonate Anna while working for their mother's evil intelligence agency. IIRC she'd spent some time in a sanitarium before coming onto the show due to those mental issues. It is not a stretch to me that Alex would turn out to be crazy years later due to that upbringing and very dark past, and go full villain. But the even more stupid thing is that to my knowledge (and I'm not watching atm) they have never bothered to explain this change in her character with even two lines of dialogue. It is very easy and very plausible, but they won't do it, we have to fill in the gaps.

Dimitri Marick mentioned Alex briefly on AMC 2.0 in 2013, and said he'd divorced her.

That's what so frustrating for me, it'd be so easy to say Alex recovered more memories that made her spin out into evilness, or the emotional turmoil of her divorce from Dimitri sent her down this darker road, something!  But it's just LOLZ ALEX IS EVUL TWIN and that's so, soooo irritating to me.

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It's not even that complicated though. Just say Alex's long history of brainwashing and instability led her to turn nuts. Very simple. I don't give a fuck about Alex or her time on AMC tbh but she's a useful villain.

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On 4/19/2019 at 1:53 PM, lizzbert said:

Don’t forget Julia! She was more of a rebellious wild child than a bad girl, but I hate how they “sanctified” her with the rape.

I was going to post the same thing.

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How did we end up in a place where all of Carly’s children are “good” and “decent” and “sweet”? One of them, sure. ALL of them? Compleley unrealistic. I get that Frank (and even those before him) made the choice for Carly and Sonny to be “the main family” on this show, but that never should have meant that all the characters in said family have to be rootable and heroic. What are we doing?

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2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

How did we end up in a place where all of Carly’s children are “good” and “decent” and “sweet”? One of them, sure. ALL of them? Compleley unrealistic. I get that Frank (and even those before him) made the choice for Carly and Sonny to be “the main family” on this show, but that never should have meant that all the characters in said family have to be rootable and heroic. What are we doing?

Because that means Sonny and Carly might have made a mistake in parenting! Gasp! Like dang. Just blame it on fat AJ or blood diamond corporate raider Jax's DNA.

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40 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Because that means Sonny and Carly might have made a mistake in parenting! Gasp! Like dang. Just blame it on fat AJ or blood diamond corporate raider Jax's DNA.

Ron actually got one thing right by making younger Joss bratty and rude.

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10 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Ron actually got one thing right by making younger Joss bratty and rude.

There was Morgan of the Blessed Memory but they made it all because of the bi-polar, blech.

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3 minutes ago, ulkis said:

There was Morgan of the Blessed Memory but they made it all because of the bi-polar, blech.

See, and that’s another good point. Instead of making Morgan an all-around less than perfect character, which is OK!, they excused everything due to a mental disorder.

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11 hours ago, TeeVee329 said:

It still pisses me off that Carly and Joss are like "Gilmore Girls" BFFs.  A teenage Joss should have been making Carly's life miserable 24/7/365!

Sheer laziness on the part of the writers, as usual.

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There's hope: maybe Joss will start acting out after Oscar's funeral and make Carly's life miserable 24/7/365! Jax tries to help, but she also gives him 'tude, and she starts treating Sonny like the slime bucket he is. Win-win-win!

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I'm fine with Joss being nice, as the idea of confusing people with a daughter of Carly turning out to be sweet has always amused me. It's just that Emma isn't there as a bad girl to provide the full Robin and Carly in reverse situation. *shrug* 

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(edited)
3 minutes ago, UYI said:

I'm fine with Joss being nice,

If it was just Joss, it would be fine. But it’s the fact that it’s all of Carly’s kids. They were all raised well in perfect environments by perfect people? No kid has a complex or an issue with Sonny’s lifestyle? Everything is great in that household? It’s unrealistic as a whole.

Edited by HeatLifer
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(edited)
On 5/7/2019 at 1:06 PM, HeatLifer said:

If it was just Joss, it would be fine. But it’s the fact that it’s all of Carly’s kids. They were all raised well in perfect environments by perfect people? No kid has a complex or an issue with Sonny’s lifestyle? Everything is great in that household? It’s unrealistic as a whole.

This I agree with. I don't want Michael being the hell demon he was when Chucky played him, but if he were even a bit more flawed I'd be fine with that. 

I guess Morgan being dead is a sign of what being Sonny & Carly's kid can do to you, so there's that, at least. 

Edited by UYI
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2 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

If it was just Joss, it would be fine. But it’s the fact that it’s all of Carly’s kids. They were all raised well in perfect environments by perfect people? No kid has a complex or an issue with Sonny’s lifestyle? Everything is great in that household? It’s unrealistic as a whole.

Kristina is trouble but that's because of Alexis. And she looooves Sonny.

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3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’m in the store right now, but Jason’s hair!!!😂😂😂😂😂

I preferred that to Jason Morgan's buzzcut. The only time I hated Jason Q's hair is when he let it grow out to a girlish length.

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Wow. What great acting (yes, even Mo). Tears started running down my face as Robin spoke, running faster when she quoted from Romeo and Juliet. And how lovely to see so many of GH's best cast members in one room...and a few we'd love to forget! Beautifully done.

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