GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

[dubbel zout]

The way AJ was killed was terrible, too. He was on his knees begging for his life, and there's Ava, egging Sonny on. Gross. 

 

The Qs were terrible to AJ, but not one of them wanted to kill him. Sonny did on a regular basis. That will always make Sonny much worse for me.

Edited February 9, 2016 by dubbel zout

[Cattitude]

Unpopular opinion possibly, but a lot of AJ being the town pariah was AJ's fault himself. I have never seen anyone say it's all Sonny's fault. Sonny didn't force AJ to drink, or to make any of his bad decisions. Sonny was awful to AJ, AJ was awful to Sonny in return. But that's just it. AJ was awful IN RETURN. Sonny isn't responsible for all of AJ's choices, but he is responsible for his own, like the meathook. Like taking Carly's word and just deciding AJ was unfit because he wanted it that way.

As far as the Qs-yes they were awful to AJ. But they've been awful to each other over the years, and none of the rest of them were ever as self pitying as AJ. And I loved AJ, but he did bring some of it on himself. Stealing millions of dollars from his family and then running away was probably the final straw for some of them. Yes, the Qs backstab each other all the time, and secretly, Edward might have been a little proud of AJ's thievery. Underneath it all though, the Qs do love each other in their own dysfunctional way.

One other thing they do, is pull themselves up and not whine about their situation. AJ was different in that respect, and much like some are saying in the main thread, AJ blamed others/made excuses for his actions. It was never AJ's fault. He never took responsibility for a lot of it-up to and including shooting his father in the back.

I can't really blame the rest of the surviving Qs for having some contempt for him, even though I loved him. He was a  messed up dude.

Still doesn't excuse Sonny in any way, shape or form, nor is their contempt and treatment of AJ worse than what Sonny did.

 

This is wonderfully put but it goes both ways. To me reading this sounds a lot like Sonny and his family but yet I read over and over how awesome the Qs are and how they should be running things and Sonny is horrible. Sonny is a mob boss I expect him and his family to behave the way they do. The Qs are supposed to be a respectable business family for me having them act this way is disappointing and makes me not care for them as much. I'm not trying to excuse what Sonny did as right or good but in comparison to AJ himself and his own family I don't see it as much worse. Sonny did go to prison for killing AJ. Not really his fault he was pardoned. He wasn't trying to get out of it.

[TeeVee329]

Sonny did go to prison for killing AJ. Not really his fault he was pardoned. He wasn't trying to get out of it.

 

...he spent close to a year "trying to get out of it", including, like I mentioned before, sitting at AJ's bedside and ordering him to die so he wouldn't be implicated.  And the only reason he didn't go to trial and "try to get out of it" was because he was trying to protect Carly.

 

Like ulkis said, the story overall and all around was a mistake, especially given Sonny's position as the male lead of the show.

[FilmTVGeek80]

 

I never hear anyone complain about how AJ's own family's treatment of him lead him to be the town pariah. No it's ALL Sonny's

 

AJ's family's treatment of him didn't lead to him being the town pariah. It was Guza's obsessive to need to make sure that Jason and Sonny were seen as the messiahs of the town and never being willing to let them lose that led to this show villifying characters like AJ, Zander, and to a lesser extent, Robin.

 

 

This is wonderfully put but it goes both ways. To me reading this sounds a lot like Sonny and his family but yet I read over and over how awesome the Qs are and how they should be running things and Sonny is horrible. Sonny is a mob boss I expect him and his family to behave the way they do. The Qs are supposed to be a respectable business family for me having them act this way is disappointing and makes me not care for them as much. I'm not trying to excuse what Sonny did as right or good but in comparison to AJ himself and his own family I don't see it as much worse. Sonny did go to prison for killing AJ. Not really his fault he was pardoned. He wasn't trying to get out of it.

 

The Q's don't go around murdering people and then acting high and mighty and like they're better than other characters or other murderers. Sonny and Carly, act like they're paragons of the community, and what's worse is a lot of time the writers do as well (though it's not as bad as it was under Guza.)

Edited February 9, 2016 by FilmTVGeek80

[dubbel zout]

Sonny's position as the male lead of the show.

 

That's the main problem, IMO. A mob boss is the male lead of the show. Dimples and being adorable with adorable babies isn't enough to persuade me he's a good person, yet that's what the show is trying to tell me. You HAVE to allow people to genuinely hate Sonny for legitimate reasons and not be mocked. But we're not getting that at all anymore. Even Patrick had to finally kiss the ring. There's no balance on the show when it comes to Sonny, and when he's a mob boss, it's hard to swallow him being the center of the show. 

[TeeVee329]

It was Guza's obsessive to need to make sure that Jason and Sonny were seen as the messiahs of the town and never being willing to let them lose that led to this show villifying characters like AJ, Zander, and to a lesser extent, Robin.

 

Jax too.

[ulkis]

Cattitude, I just think it's one of those things where you had to "be there", so to speak. I mean back in the day when they had AJ sharing custody with Carly and Sonny, they played an recording of a baby crying off-screen while AJ was holding an obviously-not-crying baby to show how much AJ supposedly stunk with Michael. That kind of heavily biased writing is a turn off of the character the writers mean you to sympathize with. And I say this as someone who didn't care for AJ or either of the last two actors who played him, really.

[TeeVee329]

For me, AJ's return from the dead - and that Michael was finally allowed to have a relationship with him while still having a relationship with Sonny and Carly - was the show finally achieving balance.  And Sonny murdering AJ was the death of that balance.

[ulkis]

For me, AJ's return from the dead - and that Michael was finally allowed to have a relationship with him while still having a relationship with Sonny and Carly - was the show finally achieving balance.  And Sonny murdering AJ was the death of that balance.

 

The sad thing is they did it not because they thought it would be good story but to put both actors in their place. Kanan because he dared to complain about the story he had gotten and Benard to show him they could easily slot Sonny out if he chose to play hardball with them during contract time. They put their pettiness before, forget what was just not the best for the show, but pretty much the polar opposite. It was just like "okay, this would probably be the best direction to go, but let's do this, not as good but it's still decent story", but "hey, everyone's gonna hate this, but eff that guy, he said my relish story was stupid, so who cares whether this makes sense at all or not."

[Ambrosefolly]

That's the main problem, IMO. A mob boss is the male lead of the show. Dimples and being adorable with adorable babies isn't enough to persuade me he's a good person, yet that's what the show is trying to tell me. You HAVE to allow people to genuinely hate Sonny for legitimate reasons and not be mocked. But we're not getting that at all anymore. Even Patrick had to finally kiss the ring. There's no balance on the show when it comes to Sonny, and when he's a mob boss, it's hard to swallow him being the center of the show.

I think Scott is the only one allowed to hold a grudge, though he is seen as a worse person than him for ...reasons. Even Karen had to justify his crap when she came to Port Charles in 1997 (in 2000 though, she tried to slap after her drug habit reignited) . Moral arbitrator and all around asshole Jason told her how she was responsible for her own choices and she even thanked the bastard. After watching the first episode of Port Charles online, I can't believe after having some jerk held her at gunpoint while telling about her stripper past to her new colleagues while she  stood there in tears and then forced to strip to distract him, she would ever forgive Sonny, since clearly he thought he didn't do anything really wrong when they met again.    

The sad thing is they did it not because they thought it would be good story but to put both actors in their place. Kanan because he dared to complain about the story he had gotten and Benard to show him they could easily slot Sonny out if he chose to play hardball with them during contract time. They put their pettiness before, forget what was just not the best for the show, but pretty much the polar opposite. It was just like "okay, this would probably be the best direction to go, but let's do this, not as good but it's still decent story", but "hey, everyone's gonna hate this, but eff that guy, he said my relish story was stupid, so who cares whether this makes sense at all or not."

Then RC bragged they did so Michael could have his confrontation and CD could pad his Emmy reel.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[jsbt]

I think you could've done the same story with the same big fallout (which worked until it was undone) with A.J. almost dying or ending up in a coma for a while, or turning up alive. But they wanted to be shed of Sean Kanan and they were horribly short-sighted. They thought they could walk back anything for Sonny, too. Completely dismissing that once and for all is what made me turn off the show again.

Edited February 9, 2016 by jsbt

[IWantCandy71]

This is wonderfully put but it goes both ways. To me reading this sounds a lot like Sonny and his family but yet I read over and over how awesome the Qs are and how they should be running things and Sonny is horrible. Sonny is a mob boss I expect him and his family to behave the way they do. The Qs are supposed to be a respectable business family for me having them act this way is disappointing and makes me not care for them as much. I'm not trying to excuse what Sonny did as right or good but in comparison to AJ himself and his own family I don't see it as much worse. Sonny did go to prison for killing AJ. Not really his fault he was pardoned. He wasn't trying to get out of it.

 

Sonny is horrible. He is not a nice person. I get why people may enjoy watching him, but there's very little good about him.

I think Q fans love them, but also recognize their flaws. The show points out their flaws. The show RARELY points out Sonny's, and when they do, in the end, it's almost always justified by the writing.

So, that's one difference.

[dubbel zout]

I think Scott is the only one allowed to hold a grudge, though he is seen as a worse person than him for ...reasons.

 

That just proves my point. Scott is considered a joke by half the people in town, so him holding a grudge against Sonny is meaningless. That's why it meant something that Patrick hated Sonny: Patrick wasn't some crackpot who showed up once every two months. He was a regular, a decent guy, and he had legit reasons. (So does Scott, but the crackpot/minimal screen time aspects undercut that.)

[ulkis]

Sonny is horrible. He is not a nice person. I get why people may enjoy watching him, but there's very little good about him.

I think Q fans love them, but also recognize their flaws. The show points out their flaws. The show RARELY points out Sonny's, and when they do, in the end, it's almost always justified by the writing.

So, that's one difference.

 

I think the show points out Sonny's flaws a lot. They just always backtrack eventually. And this latest backtrack is probably the strongest since, oh, I don't know, since 2005 or thereabouts, but to be fair, this is Sonny on his best behavior since, I don't know, Stone. He's not doing anything right now much except acting like an after-school special. "Fight! I can be strong! Yeah!"

 

The problem is, it doesn't really erase what came before this. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by ulkis

[Ambrosefolly]

Port Charles truly was a parallel dimension, not just the vampires, but also that treated Scott as a human being.

[Oracle42]

I haven't liked Sonny in years but I occasionally found him compelling. Sonny murdering AJ was a point of no return for me - for both Sonny as a character and RC as a writer. I stopped watching aside from occasional scenes on YouTube

[IWantCandy71]

I think the show points out Sonny's flaws a lot. They just always backtrack eventually. And this latest backtrack is probably the strongest since, oh, I don't know, since 2005 or thereabouts, but to be fair, this is Sonny on his best behavior since, I don't know, Stone. He's not doing anything right now much except acting like an after-school special. "Fight! I can be strong! Yeah!"

 

The problem is, it doesn't really erase what came before this. 

 

That's what I meant by in the end, his flaws are justified by the writing. When they bother acknowledging them, he gets excused, eventually. Even Michael is no longer allowed to be mad at him for murdering AJ, exhibit A.

Even Tracy chose Sonny over Ava, but she was allowed to say they were equally vile, and I was shocked at that. 

That just proves my point. Scott is considered a joke by half the people in town, so him holding a grudge against Sonny is meaningless. That's why it meant something that Patrick hated Sonny: Patrick wasn't some crackpot who showed up once every two months. He was a regular, a decent guy, and he had legit reasons. (So does Scott, but the crackpot/minimal screen time aspects undercut that.)

 

I still love Scott. Always have, always will. And I'd take him again for Tracy in a heartbeat. They'll never do it, because they waste Kin. I think Scott being shown as a "joke" is deliberate to make Sonny look like the injured party. Look at this crazy man persecuting this poor misunderstood mobster.

I cringe during Sonny and Scott scenes because of that.

[bannana]

I think the show points out Sonny's flaws a lot. They just always backtrack eventually. And this latest backtrack is probably the strongest since, oh, I don't know, since 2005 or thereabouts, but to be fair, this is Sonny on his best behavior since, I don't know, Stone. He's not doing anything right now much except acting like an after-school special. "Fight! I can be strong! Yeah!"

 

The problem is, it doesn't really erase what came before this. 

His agenda is to fool everyone that he is still unable to walk, so that he can somehow secretly bring down Ava and regain custody of Avery.  And I think Show expects us to be on his side and against Ava.  I think they are both horrible people, but when Sonny had custody of Avery he made life miserable for Ava.  Now that she has custody, she is portrayed as horrible by everyone including Kiki, even though she is actually following the custody order.

 

So while he doesn't seem to be doing much, it is all part of his nefarious plan to destroy the mother of his child and everyone will of course be cheering him on.  Sigh.

[UYI]

Random question, but since Susan has come up recently, and it's possible Hayden/someone else in town might be her:

 

Who was her mother? I know Paul was with her before Tracy, but who was she and what happened to her? Did she die, or did she and Paul separate/divorce and he had primary custody? 

[SlovakPrincess]

The show can't even be good for dramatic purposes when murders are commonplace and nobody cares in the end. The show has turned into a joke with all the lunatics and killers roaming around, and nobody able or willing to do anything about it.

So ... it all eventually becomes boring. Who can relate to anything on screen? You can have an outlandish plot or redeem somebody from something awful -- within reason, and only if there is some relatable emotional aspect to it.

Sonny and Jason only killing even more disgusting mobsters sort of worked ok for a while - sort of - in that you could kind of understand why people turned a blind eye. (I have always loathed Sonny - possibly most of all because he bores me senseless ... but it made a tad bit more sense). Killing AJ was way, way, WAY too much.

If people actually did ostracize Sonny, I might actually feel something for him! That's where the drama is at - not Sonny Does Bad Thing And Everyone Eventually Excuses It. He should be a social pariah with only his nearest and dearest enabling him.

[dubbel zout]

He should be a social pariah with only his nearest and dearest enabling him.

 

Which unfortunately is half the town, but that's another rant.

Edited February 9, 2016 by dubbel zout

[SlovakPrincess]

Which unfortunately is half the town, but that's another rant.

Ha ha. This makes Sonny like Michael Scott on The Office, who once said he wanted to have kids so he could make them be his friends. Maybe that's why Sonny procreated so much ....

[HeatLifer]

But I don't know why I'm complaining because LIZ IS FREE, y'all!!

Yup. And Liz deserves to have a lasting pairing that is just hers. I don't know why they won't give it to her. She's always had great chem with various characters. Give her a love story that's about her and Fill-In-The-Blank. Enough with the triangles and her having to compete for attention.

[TeeVee329]

It should have been AJ!  *cries*

[KerleyQ]

It should have been AJ!  *cries*

 

I still loathe Ron for ruining that more than anything else he did.  (And he did a lot to loathe him for.) 

Edited February 10, 2016 by KerleyQ

[HeatLifer]

I've actually always wondered what would have happened if JJ never left.

[ulkis]

With Ron around? I think we would have gotten LL2 for a while.

[HeatLifer]

With Ron around? I think we would have gotten LL2 for a while.

Oh, I'm talking way back to his first departure in '99. By the time he came back in '09, the writers had traaaaaaaashed Liz/Lucky.

[ulkis]

Oh, I'm talking way back to his first departure in '99. By the time he came back in '09, the writers had traaaaaaaashed Liz/Lucky.

 

oooooooooooooooooooooh. hmmmm. Well, I'm sure LL2 would have gone through some major shit by now but I think Jason would be nowhere as near a major figure in Liz's life as he became. Who knows? Maybe it would have never happened with JJ around, which I think likely.

[HeatLifer]

oooooooooooooooooooooh. hmmmm. Well, I'm sure LL2 would have gone through some major shit by now but I think Jason would be nowhere as near a major figure in Liz's life as he became. Who knows? Maybe it would have never happened with JJ around, which I think likely.

I don't think it would have either. I think JJ's Lucky and Jason would have ended up as BFF, tbh.

[ulkis]

ugh, probably. And Lucky would have never become a cop. I'm undecided over whether he actually would have been sucked into the mob or not. 

[Ambrosefolly]

ugh, probably. And Lucky would have never become a cop. I'm undecided over whether he actually would have been sucked into the mob or not. 

I loved Lucky as a cop. One of my favorite scenes was after Sonny blew up Johnny's car and Sonny got all freaked out because Lucky was on the case and couldn't be bought like everyone else.  One of the reasons I was grateful for Greg Vaughn. Even though he wasn't quite Lucky, I thought the show took a lot of chances with his Lucky than they did with JJ's, even if JJ would be more capable of pulling it off. I vastly preferred GV's Lucky's attitude towards Jason post -drug addiction/Jake reveal: he didn't go around hating one Jason but had no real use for him. I strangely like LuSam too. For all the talk about Sam being Jason's ride and die chick, I felt Lucky treated Sam as more of an equal and not someone that had to kowtow to his awesomeness.

[cheyz]

Random question, but since Susan has come up recently, and it's possible Hayden/someone else in town might be her:

 

Who was her mother? I know Paul was with her before Tracy, but who was she and what happened to her? Did she die, or did she and Paul separate/divorce and he had primary custody? 

 

She died young. Paul came on as a widower with a young child.

[Asp Burger]

I found a transcript with Alexis's best line ever, which I've bolded (April 1, 2005): 

 

***

 

Alexis: I assume Dara served you with the petition.

 

Sonny: Yeah, she came by with this worthless piece of paper that said I can't see my daughter.

 

Alexis: Sonny, it's not a worthless piece of paper. It's issued by a court of law and even you have to abide by it.

 

Sonny: Shut up, shut up for a second, okay? Kristina's my daughter. You didn't conceive her alone, you're not going to raise her alone. Hear me out on this. You are not cutting me out of my daughter's life.

 

Alexis: Unfortunately, we're both in a position now where a judge has to decide --

 

Sonny: I don't care what a stranger says. Don't threaten me, bitch.

 

Alexis: Every woman is a bitch to you eventually, aren't they?

 

Sonny: I know what this is about, and it's not what's best for Kristina. You're upset because I tossed you right on your hyperventilating butt when I went back to my wife, all right. And the only weapon you have now is my daughter. Well, I'm not going to lay down for her. I'm not going to allow you -- I'm not going to allow you to be the only influence in that little girl's life. I'm not going to let you smother her with your overprotective crap so she turns out as neurotic as you are. I already -- I already lost my son to a lunatic. I'm not going to lose my daughter to another one, even if it happens to be her mother.

 

***

 

Note: That wasn't the first/last time we'd heard this rewritten version of history where he "tossed [Alexis] out" in 2002. Didn't she move out of the penthouse all on her own? Didn't he try to talk her into staying?

 

Second note: Oh, joy! More than ten years later and we're in another story with Sonny trying to bulldoze a woman over custody issues. It's even a daughter again. If I thought the show would still be on the air, maybe we could have the story yet again in 2025.  

Edited February 10, 2016 by Asp Burger

[ulkis]

Ugh. Hyperventilating/neurotic seem like a personal dig from Guza.

Dialogue is still light years better though.

[Kitty Redstone]

I have a hard time watching all these stories sometimes though because it makes me so sad at how wonderful the writing for this show used to be. The romances were wonderful, the writing showed how genuine the love between families were, the friendships were so believable and real. I miss that so much.

 

Same here.  It's difficult to take how far this show has fallen.  What used to bring me comfort and pleasure - something I couldn't wait to watch - was turned into this mostly boring and awful show that I only turn on because nothing else is on.  I mean, to go from fun and adventure and romance to a mob-centric crapfest that has lasted for over twenty years, and that some viewers today can't envision the show without?  It's a damn shame.

 

For me, AJ's return from the dead - and that Michael was finally allowed to have a relationship with him while still having a relationship with Sonny and Carly - was the show finally achieving balance.  And Sonny murdering AJ was the death of that balance.

 

AJ's return from the dead was the single best thing Ron C. did for GH.  Then he promptly fucked it up with Pickle Lila and panic attacks. 

[Harmony233]

Port Charles truly was a parallel dimension, not just the vampires, but also that treated Scott as a human being.

LoL sad but true.Honestly watching port Charles eps its kinda suprising how much Dominquie is mentioned.

[tvgoddess]

 

Sonny: Shut up, shut up for a second, okay? Kristina's my daughter. You didn't conceive her alone, you're not going to raise her alone. Hear me out on this. You are not cutting me out of my daughter's life.

 

 

Sonny: I don't care what a stranger says. Don't threaten me, bitch.

 

 

Sonny: I'm not going to let you smother her with your overprotective crap so she turns out as neurotic as you are. I already -- I already lost my son to a lunatic. I'm not going to lose my daughter to another one, even if it happens to be her mother.

 

He is SUCH an asshole. 

[peachmangosteen]

It should have been AJ!  *cries*

 

That was my first thought as well. I miss Quiz. So much wasted potential, sigh.

[sunflower]

 

Killing AJ was way, way, WAY too much.

 

It's what drove me away.  If I happen to catch a scene, I just start bitching and yelling about Sonny being around and treated well.  I've been reading this board, has Michael been backburnered since he forgave Sonny?  How interesting and sad if true.  

 

I'm still for Maxie and Michael as a turn around for this show.  I still dream of possibilities even though I know it's hopeless.  AJ's death would only be acceptable if Michael would at the very least remain conflicted.  This show sucks even from afar.  Whatever.

[ulkis]

It's what drove me away.  If I happen to catch a scene, I just start bitching and yelling about Sonny being around and treated well.  I've been reading this board, has Michael been backburnered since he forgave Sonny?  How interesting and sad if true.  

 

No, he's been on having a story with Sabrina. The actress is on maternity leave right now though.

[sunflower]

That seems like the same thing.  I don't even know anymore.  

[ulkis]

He's had a decent amount of airtime, it's just mostly all other talk gets subsumed in the Sam/Liz Bermuda triangle.

Edited February 11, 2016 by ulkis

[dubbel zout]

Michael doesn't really have a story with TeCa on mat leave, but he's onscreen a lot regardless. He's not being backburnered.

[MissL]

So straying from current thread a bit...but because I gave up the show years ago, but still check in from time to time, and recent events on the show made me need some fond memories...I decided to torture myself by watching the original reason I came back years ago ... Patrick and Robin... And three things:

1) I forgot how often they made poor JT say "spermocidal jelly"

2) I forgot how ragey and stabby I got when Robert came back and they made it so he was a deadbeat dad who stayed away from Robin on purpose and let her think he was dead. Never. Going. To. Accept. That.

3) I forgot how annoying and self righteous Epiphany was

Otherwise the rest of it was made of win!

Edited February 11, 2016 by MissL

[HeatLifer]

Pip could be super annoying, but she always cracked me up when it came to Scrubs, regardless, lol. She just had some great one-liners.

[cmahorror]

I always thought it was hilarious that when Patrick and Robin were getting ready to make love in the cabin the first time, he listed the things he needed to get from the car. What was on the list? Condoms, spermicidal jelly and a pamphlet on HIV awareness. I get the first two but the third? The first two clearly shows he read it already.

[MissL]

My favorite moment really was when they got all worked up and said he had to go to the car and Robin said " it's 5 miles away!" Something about the way they both delivered those lines.

[HeatLifer]

My favorite moment really was when they got all worked up and said he had to go to the car and Robin said " it's 5 miles away!" Something about the way they both delivered those lines.

YES! They had been interrupted so many times and they were like, "oh hell naw this happens TONIGHT"

[cmahorror]

Might as well post it...

 

 

We've been talking about it so much anyhow lol

Edited February 11, 2016 by cmahorror