S07.E01: Hyperion Heights

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 10/6/2017 at 10:07 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I tried to put myself in the shoes of a new viewer, coming into this without any baggage or expectations, and I think if this had been the first episode I saw, I wouldn't watch more. It was utterly lacking in the charm of the original pilot. I know they go on and on about this being a show about hope, but I found this episode to be rather grim.

That was it, right there.

On 10/6/2017 at 10:12 PM, CCTC said:

So a prince was stabbed -- and the crowd and guards are too slow to react that Henry can stop and grin at the room for a few seconds before exiting without too much difficulty?

You reminded me of the part of the Murderella plot I liked the least: all the guards Henry and Cinders killed while making their getaway.  The prince was innocent, right?  So, these guards didn't do anything wrong - they were trying to apprehend who they thought killed their prince, and they weren't the Black Knights like in Regina's employ - so why should I have been rooting for Henry and Cinders in that moment when they are killing innocent people, even if it's to avoid getting captured for something they didn't do?  Lady Tremaine had the flippin' bloody knife up her sleeve!  Why not just say, 'I didn't kill the prince, she did! (Point finger at LT) Look and see, she's got the murder weapon hidden in her sleeve!'  Problem solved and no innocent guards had to die.

On 10/6/2017 at 10:23 PM, CheshireCat said:

What bothered me the most is the fact that the Stepmother was merely that. The stepmother. According to Google, in most states, a step-parent doesn't even have a right to see the child if the biological parent won't allow visitation and they have no legal right to their stepchild unless the child was adopted. So, taking the biological child of their stepchild would be kidnapping and since this is not Storybrooke but Seattle, so, the real world and not a cursed town, it would be really easy to fight this in court. It's these little things which bother me the most because they're so easy to find out. All it takes is one look at Google.

Thank you - the whole step-mother threatening to take custody of her step-daughter away from the biological mother just had me rolling my eyes.  And not even threatening - saying Lucy was going to move back in with her - without even threatening to take Jacinderella to court to terminate her parental rights.  No.  That's not how it works.

[dogmissel]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 The episode was meh.  Even Hook couldn't really bring it up.  I remember reading an early review that called his cursed persona very DeckHand Hook, and I think that was pretty accurate.  I liked DeckHandHook for that one episode, but if I have to watch it all season - I just don't think I can.  

That is for sure what I found so jarring and sad. Even the characters that stayed aren't our characters? Like as cute as Rogers is he's not Hook, he doesn't have that strong confident presence that normally draws in viewers and it makes him meh as a character. I'm hoping they don't go all season with these personalities because honestly it's too sad to see them forced into these roles and personalities that 100% aren't them. 

[Writing Wrongs]

What was the deal with the missing cemetery? 

How many years is supposed to be between Henry leaving SB and when he meets Cinderella? Why would Henry look that changed? Did he use Robin's face changing magic?

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, dogmissel said:

it's too sad to see them forced into these roles and personalities that 100% aren't them. 

This is a big problem, especially if the curse lasts the rest of the season. With the first curse, we didn't actually know what their true selved were like, and we were getting to know their pasts selves at the same time as their Cursed personae. The horrific WishRealsm Emma overstayed even two episodes. Seeing Hook with the Deckhand personality and being Rumple's unwitting dupe for a whole season sounds like it could be painful to watch. As for Roni making hope speeches like Snow all season long...

Edited October 9, 2017 by Rumsy4

[athelyna]

So I'm probably the type of person they were hoping to pull in with this reboot thing, I watched the 1st season, didn't stick around, came back for the Frozen stuff out of morbid curiosity, but was a bit lost by all the backstory of the main characters and again didn't stick around, but I like fantasy and fairytale stuff so could be interested in a new version.  However, agree with almost everyone that this was just a kind of stupid way to set things up with following the same plot as the original pilot.  I may watch some of the future episodes, but I could easily see forgetting about it until I log into Hulu and tells me there's a bunch of new episodes a month from now.

I don't mind the idea of different versions of characters who've already been seen - as the young Henry said in the opening there are different versions of characters from different countries, so was interested to see which versions of Cinderella they would pull from - maybe she'd have fur or gold slippers not glass, instead of a fairy godmother there'd be the tree on her mother's grave or magic fishbones or magic hazelnuts, but nope, same blue dress, glass slippers, and fairy godmother.  Oh, she planned on killing the prince instead of marrying him, that's such an improvement *sarcasm*.  I guess killing the godmother helped show the Stepmother as genuinely wicked not just a rude b*tch, but why not have her find Cinderella's magic tree and chop it down but keep one of the branches as a magic wand, then we'd see she's wicked when she kills the Prince herself.  I did kind of like the Stepmother killing the Prince and saying how the Prince's younger brother was into her daughter- that's the sort of dark twist that to me fits with updating and modernizing fairy tales.

As for the cursed world setup, there are so many better ways they could've set it up.  I guess they didn't want to follow the original too closely, so Lucy was raised by her biological mother rather than being adopted by the villain.  Speaking of the villain, while Gabrielle Anwar is looking a bit haggard, she still doesn't look old enough to be running around going "where's my granddaughter?"  If anything, I'm assuming as Stepmother she's meant to be a somewhat younger second wife to Jacinda's father, and I would think in the modern world the stepmother would be one of those people trying to come across as still youthful and not wanting to admit she's old enough to have a granddaughter.  Definitely would have worked better if Lucy had been the adopted daughter of the stepmother, even if if that may have been seen as one step too close to the original pilot.  Or yeah, have Jacinda and Lucy still living in Jacinda's father's house, and Jacinda not wanting to get kicked out because it's the only part of her father she has left and because wicked stepmother wrestled control of what should have been Jacinda's inheritance and she has no money to leave and stepmother threatens to tell the cops Jacinda is unfit mother and take custody of Lucy.  

I'm willing to buy that since the stepmother has so much influence over the police department she has ways to get custody of Lucy and Jacinda would just hand over custody rather than have a public custody battle knowing the courts would end up siding against her anyway, but it might have been nice if the curse backstory had included mention of Jacinda previously going to rehab or spending time getting inpatient mental health care or something that would make people question if she's a fit mother.  If the bio mom is an unfit parent, I can completely understand the legal system agreeing to give custody to a step-grandparent who has money and influence.

Speaking of curse backstories, I would have been more affected by Henry's if maybe we had gotten a shot of him visiting a grave somewhere in the beginning of the episode, even if it wasn't revealed at that time that it was his wife and daughter, but knowing he'd supposedly lost someone.  It felt so random when he yelled at Lucy about having lost his family, because there wasn't anything in the rest of his story to indicate he was grieving the loss of his family.  It could have been interesting if we saw him in a cemetery, maybe had a shot of a burned up child's toy on his desk, then he mentions to not-Regina how having a little girl show up claiming to be his kid really messed him up in light of what happened to his family or something that just kinds of hints at it, then at the end we could have the twist that the cemetery has disappeared.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What was the deal with the missing cemetery? 

How many years is supposed to be between Henry leaving SB and when he meets Cinderella? Why would Henry look that changed? Did he use Robin's face changing magic?

Henry thought his wife and daughter were buried there, but it wasn't real.

Seven-ten years. In other realm time. Less in Land Without Magic time, hence the appearance of hyper-aging.

33 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You reminded me of the part of the Murderella plot I liked the least: all the guards Henry and Cinders killed while making their getaway.  The prince was innocent, right?  So, these guards didn't do anything wrong - they were trying to apprehend who they thought killed their prince, and they weren't the Black Knights like in Regina's employ - so why should I have been rooting for Henry and Cinders in that moment when they are killing innocent people, even if it's to avoid getting captured for something they didn't do?

Thank you - the whole step-mother threatening to take custody of her step-daughter away from the biological mother just had me rolling my eyes.  And not even threatening - saying Lucy was going to move back in with her - without even threatening to take Jacinderella to court to terminate her parental rights.  No.  That's not how it works.

Did they kill anyone? I only saw them clash swords and knock their opponents back.

Victoria's not used to Jacinda standing up to her, and I think the threat that if she didn't turn over Lucy willingly then Victoria would have her declared unfit was implied.

[Camera One]

35 minutes ago, dogmissel said:

That is for sure what I found so jarring and sad. Even the characters that stayed aren't our characters? Like as cute as Rogers is he's not Hook, he doesn't have that strong confident presence that normally draws in viewers and it makes him meh as a character. I'm hoping they don't go all season with these personalities because honestly it's too sad to see them forced into these roles and personalities that 100% aren't them. 

I had expected to at least find it interesting to see Roni and Rogers Cursed personalities since Regina and Hook never had them.  So I was surprised how disconnected I was from either character because they were pretty much the same actors playing complete different characters.  They failed to show that this was actually Regina and Hook underneath, and that's a huge fail.  Why did Henry cause Roni to start to change at the end, but Hook didn't?  

52 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, these guards didn't do anything wrong - they were trying to apprehend who they thought killed their prince, and they weren't the Black Knights like in Regina's employ - so why should I have been rooting for Henry and Cinders in that moment when they are killing innocent people, even if it's to avoid getting captured for something they didn't do? 

I had the same concerns so I was looking at that scene very carefully.  I *think* (not positive, though) that they didn't outright stab any of them.  But I totally agree they were just doing their jobs and I could not really root for Henry and Cinders' epic swordfight.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why did Henry cause Roni to start to change at the end, but Hook didn't?  

She actually said it was Jacinda who made her start to change.

[Camera One]

Just now, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She actually said it was Jacinda who made her start to change.

Yeah I know but I didn't buy that.  Roni would have seen Victoria bullying multitudes of people up until now.  So I figured it was something about Henry coming to Hyperion Heights which made the difference.

[KingOfHearts]

I thought the lack of customers at Roni's meant her business was failing, but that was never brought up. She said the neighborhood was changing "not by choice", but she was fully capable of declining Victoria's offer. It would have made more sense if Victora had already owned the bar and Roni could no longer afford the rent. Her calling Victoria a "bitch" felt forced and made her look unprofessional as a business owner. Her whole conversation with Henry was just super expositional, clunky, and artificial. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I thought the lack of customers at Roni's meant her business was failing, but that was never brought up. She said the neighborhood was changing "not by choice", but she was fully capable of declining Victoria's offer. It would have made more sense if Victora had already owned the bar and Roni could no longer afford the rent. Her calling Victoria a "bitch" felt forced and made her look unprofessional as a business owner. Her whole conversation with Henry was just super expositional, clunky, and artificial. 

You'd think if her bar was a local institution that there would be people there helping her to pack and emotionally expressing the loss of their local watering hole.  But nope, her only customer is a random stranger who's there for a laptop pickup.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

You'd think if her bar was a local institution that there would be people there helping her to pack and emotionally expressing the loss of their local watering hole.  But nope, her only customer is a random stranger who's there for a laptop pickup.

Apparently Jacinda was a returning customer, which really doesn't help out her reputation. For all we know, she could have been late to work because she had been out drinking late the night before.

Sorry, Roni. Your bar ain't no Granny's. At least when Storybrooke was a ghost town, the dinner was still busy.

Edited October 9, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It looked like Jacinda only went there to return the laptop, not to express her regrets to Roni about the loss of the bar.

If Victoria is trying to raise the property value of the neighborhood, why would she let the community garden, etc. get so run-down?  Has construction started on her new developments?  Who from outside the neighborhood would want to move there if there wasn't any sign it was improving?  If her only goal is to kick everyone out of Hyperion Heights, why the plan to open a money-losing juice bar?  There needed a lot more worldbuilding in just the present-day scenes.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It looked like Jacinda only went there to return the laptop, not to express her regrets to Roni about the loss of the bar.

Well, Roni saw Jacinda and greeted her like she knew her well. That's why I think she's been there before on more than one occasion.

[Camera One]

Yes, she definitely did greet her like she knew her.

A few direct lines from the pilot I didn't realize until rewatching the pilot:
- "Really?" - Emma says this in the restaurant at the beginning of the pilot.  She says "Seriously?" in her apartment.
- Graham uses the phrase "pounding the pavement" when describing his methods in comparison to Emma's newer methods.  Yet this is supposed to be 2017 with Uber and all our current technologies

There was also "a banner year" which Roni says.

Some non-exact lines included Victoria saying that Lucy needs structure which is similar to Regina's speech about how she is strict, and then "does that make me evil?", which was delivered perfectly.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 10/7/2017 at 2:52 AM, Camera One said:

1. Henry and Cinderella/Jacinda felt very rushed.  It was pretty ridiculous to me that they would be flirting so heavily while Roni watched at the bar.  The lines were just so cheesy and I didn't buy they made a connection so quickly.  In the flashback, Henry fell hard, and followed her to the ball and insisted they dance and asked her to run away with him?  This after meeting her for 5 minutes ending with her punching his face?  How the hell did he get to the palace before her, anyway?  

Both in flashback and present-day, they utterly failed to sell the romance, yet they already "separated" the coupling by the end with Henry's jerk move of telling Victoria about Jacinda's secret island dream, just to get back his car when there was no reason why helping Victoria would speed up the search.

2. I have to go meh on Alice being Weaver's lackey in the present-day.  The only thing I liked about her was her line about not wanting to be called "Alice in Wonderland".  To me, that was practically the only clever line in the entire hour.   I don't know if we're supposed to side with her and want Henry to stop interfering with Cinderella's story, because I did NOT cheer as we were supposed to when Henry let the portal close and stayed behind in this realm.

1. As others have noted, I didn't feel any chemistry with Henry/Cinders or Henry/Jacinders.  Not like with Snow and Charming or Emma and Hook.  Maybe it was because the show/network spoiled that this would be an 'epic' romance, so it didn't live up to the hype.  I'm left wondering if I would have thought there was nice chemistry between the two if I hadn't known they were supposed to be True Loves up front?  Sadly, I'll never know.  Did they not screen test these two actors together at all?

2. I'll admit, I was kind of intrigued by Alice in the previews/promos.  But I think it just fell flat in the episode.  I don't care about her either.  And to be honest, if she's working with Rumple voluntarily - I like her even less.  

On 10/7/2017 at 6:08 PM, KingOfHearts said:

This could all be Henry's mess.

I would so love this. 

On 10/8/2017 at 0:10 AM, Camera One said:

I found it one level worse than S6, if only because the acting was generally subpar, so I'm not invested in what happens to anybody.  It's like if every character in Season 6 was Jasmine since she was one of the new characters in Season 6 and I wasn't too invested in her.

I actually cared about Jasmine more than any of the new characters.  But that's because I liked the actress much better than any of the new ones and I thought Karen David made Jasmine more likable also.  

[Rumsy4]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But nope, her only customer is a random stranger who's there for a laptop pickup.

And who needs to keep double-checking if he's in the right place.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yeah I know but I didn't buy that.  Roni would have seen Victoria bullying multitudes of people up until now. 

But not necessarily inside her bar.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Did they kill anyone? I only saw them clash swords and knock their opponents back.

I thought so.  Granted, I'm trying to remember from watching Saturday afternoon and I don't want to go back and watch it again so...I thought I saw swords being struck (slashed) across guards' torsos, which to me would kill them or at least grievously injure them even though they weren't stabbed through and through.  

Okay, so I did have to go back and check - darn my inner need for accuracy - check out: 

The fight starts around 1.44.  It's not shown explicitly, but looks to me like Henry takes out a guard's legs, and Cinders dispatches a guard around 1:57 and when she lunges off the table, sword first, at the guard at 2:09.  Next scene, Henry's fighting two guards and one falls while Cinders flees up the stairs.  Then the other is down after he's shown slashing away.  

Now, sure - maybe they just happened to have knocked all those guards unconscious while wielding heavy weaponry and didn't leave a scratch on them.  Right. 

[Writing Wrongs]

I wonder what happened between Henry and Violet? I really don't know why they had to re-do Cinderella.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I wonder what happened between Henry and Violet? I really don't know why they had to re-do Cinderella.

A&E said something about things changing when people grow up or something.  Not epic enough, I suppose.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Camera One

[CCTC]

Or simply easier for them to write when they already have the outline of a story.  Not as much work as doing something completely original... (Although more often than not someone is not going to be with their junior high or middle school

 

15 minutes ago, Camera One said:

A&E said something about things changing when people grow up or something.  Not epic enough, I suppose.

Or simply easier for them to write when they already have the outline of a story.  Not as much work as doing something completely original... (Although more often than not someone is not going to be with their junior high or middle school sweetheart.)

[Star Aristille]

Only just caught this last night, as I'd forgotten the show had moved to Fridays.

Why the new Cinderella?  Is this a completely different one?  Because if it's the same one, why not just have Ashley's actress in the role instead?  Why change to a Hispanic Cinderella?

Are they bringing on Tiana?  You know, Disney's first black princess?  I could've sworn that she was at the ball -- the black woman who refused the offer for frogs' legs.

I didn't think I'd like this one at all, but to my surprise, it held my attention and my interest.  I think I can give it a few episodes to decide whether or not I'll stay on the ride.

[Camera One]

27 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Or simply easier for them to write when they already have the outline of a story.  Not as much work as doing something completely original... (Although more often than not someone is not going to be with their junior high or middle school

It is indeed easier to write, since they wouldn't be constrained by Violet's previous backstory.  The entire season needed to be built around Henry's love interest, so her past needs to be "untold" since that's their MO with the flashbacks, plus they would need to bring in all the supporting characters and villains directly related to that love interest.  

One major problem that this episode suffers from is Henry is also constrained by his backstory.  He isn't a blank slate like Emma was in the pilot.  It would have worked better if it wasn't Henry.  But if they used CS's son with Cinderella, that would negate the so-called happy ending for CS and it would be another generation being separated from their child as a baby.  

2 minutes ago, Star Aristille said:

Why the new Cinderella?  Is this a completely different one?  Because if it's the same one, why not just have Ashley's actress in the role instead?  Why change to a Hispanic Cinderella?

Are they bringing on Tiana?  You know, Disney's first black princess?  I could've sworn that she was at the ball -- the black woman who refused the offer for frogs' legs.

Yes, it's a different Cinderella, from an entirely different Enchanted Forest.  It's not Ashley.  Good eye... we did see Tiana briefly at the ball.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Star Aristille]

On 10/7/2017 at 8:43 AM, gik910 said:

I did crack up at the frog legs comment from Tianna.

So that was Tiana.  I figured.  I hope the show does right by the character and keeps her black.

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Good eye... we did see Tiana briefly at the ball.

Yeah, I finally did get that confirmed.  Only question now is whether or not Naveen will show up, too.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, dogmissel said:

Like as cute as Rogers is he's not Hook, he doesn't have that strong confident presence that normally draws in viewers and it makes him meh as a character. I'm hoping they don't go all season with these personalities because honestly it's too sad to see them forced into these roles and personalities that 100% aren't them. 

I kind of like Rogers, but then he's closer to being like Colin and I find Colin more appealing than Hook. Though I guess it's not much of an acting challenge for him to essentially play himself with a slightly different accent (why couldn't they have let Rogers be Irish?). I've seen the comparison to Deckhand Hook, and if we're talking in terms of Isaac's AU Deckhand Hook, then we did get to see him find his strength and courage, and we may get that here, too. Really, though, just by being a cop, Rogers is ahead of that Deckhand Hook because that's not a profession for wimps. Plus it takes some gumption and confidence to be the one good cop in a precinct that's either shady or doesn't care. I think there's actually more of a parallel to Lt. Jones, in that he's the morally upright one who's (so far) not been willing to compromise on his values. He does his job 100 percent and stands by the rules and the law. It will be interesting to see what happens when he learns more about his new partner. Will that parallel what happened with Lt. Jones, when he learns that the organization he's devoted himself to is crooked? Will Rogers stand up to Weaver and try to expose the corruption, or will he pull a Lt. Jones, throwing off his uniform and giving up entirely? Could Rogers maybe get to the place Hook reached -- being good and a hero, with some confidence and swagger -- but without going through the darkness and evil phase to get there? And will we actually get to see any of this or will he barely show up in each episode?

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

A&E said something about things changing when people grow up or something.  Not epic enough, I suppose.

I am totally okay with them not having Henry end up with his junior high sweetheart. I know there are people who got together that young and stayed together (I also know people who got together that young and then had an epic midlife crisis falling out), but it's not entirely healthy to latch onto someone at 13 and never get with anyone else. Plus, that whole relationship was so insipid.

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now, sure - maybe they just happened to have knocked all those guards unconscious while wielding heavy weaponry and didn't leave a scratch on them.  Right.

Like we're supposed to care about extras. They're not related to Regina, so they don't count.

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Why did Henry cause Roni to start to change at the end, but Hook didn't?  

Well, we did have that pensive moment with him and the book.

But I'm not sure at all why Roni changed or why the flower would start growing. In season one, it was all specifically because Emma was baked into the curse as the Savior, so her coming to town started time moving again and weakened the curse. As she got close to people, the curse's hold on them weakened. They started acting more like their real selves, and things started changing. We don't have an equivalent here. There's nothing that really showed why things would change. Henry just visited the neighborhood and hung around for a while. He doesn't live there and didn't move there. Was it Jacinda believing enough to make a wish? And we get back around to why now? How long has the curse been in effect? Has Lucy had memories all along, or did she just figure it out from reading the book?

I actually kind of get the feeling the writers haven't figured that out. They'll figure it out when they get there, but for now, it's just that there's a curse and it's in a different place.

[Camera One]

If Jennifer Morrison had decided to stay on the show, what role do you think she would have played in this episode?  What would her Curse persona be?  Hyperion Height's social worker?  Another cop?  Boss at Mr. Cluck's?   Would the bar have been called Roni & Emmeline's? 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Camera One

[iMonrey]

Quote

Apparently, there are endless Realms out there, each with their own Cinderella, Snow White, etc.  Does that make sense?  It's rather difficult to explain.

That's because it doesn't make any sense. The show tried to hand-wave this anomaly by having (young) Henry point out that there are variations of the fairy tales told in different countries. That's understandable from the perspective of different cultures having different versions of the same folklore. But the conceit of this show is that these fairy tales are real. That means there's only one "real" version of these tales, and Seasons 1 thru 6 deigned to tell us their versions were the "true" story. 

Now they're trying to say there are unlimited parallel realms with the same characters who have the same basic story but the people playing those parts are completely different. That's not even a parallel timeline/universe concept, it's just . . . bullshit. It's a way for the show to start over from scratch with the same material.

The ratings were dismal so at the end of the day it's probably a moot point. I know expectations are lower for Friday nights but a 0.7 in the key demographic is bad even for Fridays. It might get a full season order but I'd be shocked to see it last past this season.

[Passing Strange]

Apparently curses are to the Enchanted Forest what murders are to Cabot Cove.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought so.  Granted, I'm trying to remember from watching Saturday afternoon and I don't want to go back and watch it again so...I thought I saw swords being struck (slashed) across guards' torsos, which to me would kill them or at least grievously injure them even though they weren't stabbed through and through.  

Okay, so I did have to go back and check - darn my inner need for accuracy - check out: 

The fight starts around 1.44.  It's not shown explicitly, but looks to me like Henry takes out a guard's legs, and Cinders dispatches a guard around 1:57 and when she lunges off the table, sword first, at the guard at 2:09.  Next scene, Henry's fighting two guards and one falls while Cinders flees up the stairs.  Then the other is down after he's shown slashing away.  

Now, sure - maybe they just happened to have knocked all those guards unconscious while wielding heavy weaponry and didn't leave a scratch on them.  Right. 

Henry knocks the guard's legs out from under him with the blunt of his sword, Cinderella knocks a guard away from her, and then she knocks one over. She did go sword first, but he's wearing chainmail and a helmet, and you can hear the clang of her sword bouncing off when she strikes him (and see that her sword has then turned around, away from him). Also, these swords are far from being heavy ones. Not only are they clearly slight when you look at them, there's the fact that someone with Cinderella's build can wield one in the first place. So no, based on the visual and auditory evidence, there were no casualties here.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That's because it doesn't make any sense. The show tried to hand-wave this anomaly by having (young) Henry point out that there are variations of the fairy tales told in different countries. That's understandable from the perspective of different cultures having different versions of the same folklore. But the conceit of this show is that these fairy tales are real. That means there's only one "real" version of these tales, and Seasons 1 thru 6 deigned to tell us their versions were the "true" story. 

If they keep happening again and again, it explains why it's possible for the stories from [the first Enchanted Forest that we saw] to have played out in the 1980s, well after they were written down for the first time, and why Isaac can talk to Cruella about how hers is a "classic Cinderella story" before Ashley's story happened. It also explains why several of the details from the original stories are different or missing in Once. So this actually makes something that bothered some viewers during past seasons make more sense.

[KaveDweller]

35 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That's because it doesn't make any sense. The show tried to hand-wave this anomaly by having (young) Henry point out that there are variations of the fairy tales told in different countries. That's understandable from the perspective of different cultures having different versions of the same folklore. But the conceit of this show is that these fairy tales are real. That means there's only one "real" version of these tales, and Seasons 1 thru 6 deigned to tell us their versions were the "true" story. 

The weird thing about the different countries line is that Cinderella and Snow White weren't Americans. The stories are told to us in America, but they live in some far away land that has Kings and Queens. So is the French Cinderella in France or is she in just a different far away land that is practically identical to the enchanted forest?

[Camera One]

From Collider interview:

Quote

KITSIS:  One of the things that we’re also excited about is that the Cinderella story in the real world is very relevant. Feeling like people keep changing the goal posts and you can’t get out ahead is a story that we’re excited to tell. 

If they're trying to tell that story, it's not very clear from the first episode.  Getting in trouble for showing up to work late is not a good example of "people keep changing the goal posts".  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Henry knocks the guard's legs out from under him with the blunt of his sword, Cinderella knocks a guard away from her, and then she knocks one over. She did go sword first, but he's wearing chainmail and a helmet, and you can hear the clang of her sword bouncing off when she strikes him (and see that her sword has then turned around, away from him). Also, these swords are far from being heavy ones. Not only are they clearly slight when you look at them, there's the fact that someone with Cinderella's build can wield one in the first place. So no, based on the visual and auditory evidence, there were no casualties here.

If the swords are clearly slight when you look at them, that's because they are props and I highly doubt the actors could actually even pick up a real one.  That being said, I think the audience is meant to believe that they are real, heavy swords.  

Henry knocks the guards legs out from under him by sweeping with the blade of his sword.  (The other end is called 'the hilt', not the blunt.)  Now, whether or not the blade was sharp or blunt is another discussion, and I found a couple videos on that debunking the myth that medieval swords (since this is based on some fairy-tale medieval period) were blunt.  However, even if the blade was blunt (ie not sharp) the move would have at least broken the guards legs if not cut them off just from the force alone.  Now, if you want to believe there were no casualties, so that Henry and Cinders are not the bad guys in this scene, then be my guest!  Within the actual realm of the story though, I think that's highly unlikely, and I think they did cause a few casualties and injuries.  But it's also my prerogative to believe that.  

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Like we're supposed to care about extras. They're not related to Regina, so they don't count.

Well...good point!  :)

[daxx]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Now, if you want to believe there were no casualties, so that Henry and Cinders are not the bad guys in this scene, then be my guest!  Within the actual realm of the story though, I think that's highly unlikely, and I think they did cause a few casualties and injuries.  But it's also my prerogative to believe that. 

Yeah, it didn't look like everyone came away uninjured. Unlike the scene in the season 3 finale where it was pretty clear Hook was knocking out all the black guards.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

If Jennifer Morrison had decided to stay on the show, what role do you think she would have played in this episode?  What would her Curse persona be?  Hyperion Height's social worker?  Another cop?  Boss at Mr. Cluck's?   Would the bar have been called Roni & Emmeline's? 

I think it could have been interesting to have Emma cursed as a Hyperion Height's social worker, given her real life background as having grown up in the system.  Especially if the writers had gone with one of the Cinderella set ups like @Shanna Marie described.  If Jacinderella had been in trouble and lost custody once before, which is why she was living with her step-mother and Lucy was known to have run away previously, Emma could have been the social worker assigned to the case.  She could have also interacted with Rogers on one of the times that Lucy disappeared.  

[Arnella]

I understand the Gabrielle Anwar complaints.  I like her in other shows and they obviously asked her to be as unpleasant as possible here to counteract their poor writing because story-wise, she is a perfectly reasonable business woman and responsible grandmother.  Nothing evil in making a business proposition that the other person can turn down without consequence and having very real concerns about the well being of a child.

Camera One:  "I find it hard to believe that anyone could use a Fairygodmother's wand.  Rumple, fine.  But random Lady Tremaine?  This episode would have been ten times better if we got the Lady Tremaine from last year.  Imagine if she was realm jumping to destroy the life of every Cinderella in existence."

As always, you should be writing this show Camera One!

Camera One  "You'd think if her bar was a local institution that there would be people there helping her to pack and emotionally expressing the loss of their local watering hole.  But nope, her only customer is a random stranger who's there for a laptop pickup."

At the very least, they could have thrown in some of the dwarves!!!  Give my man Grumpy some dang screen time show!!!

Tennisgurl   "I wish I could quit you, show! I cant say I hated this or anything, it had some good moments and interesting ideas, but it mostly seemed like a mediocre remake of the original pilot, with lots of the beats of the first episode, but without the real emotions or magic or mystery." 

Yup, yup, and yup.  Still here for Robert Carlyle.  Please let him be really evil.  Please don't bring back Belle.  Pleeeease!

[Shanna Marie]

I'm guessing that Lady Tremaine once had magic and it was taken away (probably by a member of Snow White's family -- or possibly by Cinderella's father in a Bewitched scenario in which he didn't want to be married to a witch), and that's where her attitude of not relying on magic because it can be taken away from you comes from. Since losing her power, she's become determined to have power without magic. If she had magic potential but was stripped of her power, then that might explain why she was able to use the wand. She might still have the ability to use magical objects, but she doesn't want to rely on magic.

I've been trying to think of where Emma would have fit into this scenario. So far, there doesn't seem to be a character who would obviously have been Emma if they'd been able to use her. Given the degree of imagination we've had in cursed identities, I'm guessing she would also have been a cop in this same precinct -- officer Egret or maybe Mallard -- who knew Weaver was dirty and was investigating him, maybe via Internal Affairs, under cover in the precinct. She initially thought Rogers might also be corrupt, given his starry-eyed admiration and close working relationship with his partner, which gave her a bad attitude about Rogers, and that led to some clashes between them, with him admiring her and not being sure why she didn't like him and her having a bad first impression of him. Only later, when he started realizing how dirty Weaver was, would they start working together (and falling in love, but with the conflict that their relationship might taint their investigation). After the early ratings came in and the network realized that viewers just weren't all that into Henry and Cinderella, the relationship between Mallard and Rogers would be brought to the foreground.

[Mitch]

To quote Zelena..."Well THAT is disappointing!" 

I like a change from Storybrooke to an urban area, but did the curse just drop the fairy tale people into the "real" people's midst and the curse made them think these people were here all along, or did the Step-Mother start kicking people out and real people moved in?  And doesn't anyone in the city administration realize a new neighborhood appeared out of nowhere and now they are raking in more tax revenue in what was formerly empty lots. I need to know how the Curse works but I always thought we would have gotten info about the first curse and ...nothing.

I don' t mind the more racially diverse cast..its nice to get away from lily white Storybrooke, but it just kind of came off as a desperate attempt to be "Once the NEW GENERATION." They should have given Regina more of her EQ uppidityness in her confrontation and have the Step Mom say, "Dont give me that, you arent QUEEN here!" I do like that Tremaine was the one unmagic person with a brain in the EF to want to go to a LWOM where she can use her own personal power and not be at the power of others. I never understood the inhabinants of the EF loving magic so much as it just made their life hell.  Makes a bit more sense then Regina wanting to go there!  The poor Hook  actor looks so slight nd frail without his shoulder pads in the leather get up they used to have him wear. The kid is annoying as hell.

Hopefully the smaller budget will cut down on the CGI...

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think it could have been interesting to have Emma cursed as a Hyperion Height's social worker, given her real life background as having grown up in the system.  Especially if the writers had gone with one of the Cinderella set ups like @Shanna Marie described.  If Jacinderella had been in trouble and lost custody once before, which is why she was living with her step-mother and Lucy was known to have run away previously, Emma could have been the social worker assigned to the case.  She could have also interacted with Rogers on one of the times that Lucy disappeared.  

That sounds like a great idea. Therefore I doubt the writers would've gone there. Emma would have been in a coma like Charming was. And once she woke, she would have been "married" to someone.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

If the swords are clearly slight when you look at them, that's because they are props and I highly doubt the actors could actually even pick up a real one.  That being said, I think the audience is meant to believe that they are real, heavy swords.  

Henry knocks the guards legs out from under him by sweeping with the blade of his sword.  (The other end is called 'the hilt', not the blunt.)  Now, whether or not the blade was sharp or blunt is another discussion, and I found a couple videos on that debunking the myth that medieval swords (since this is based on some fairy-tale medieval period) were blunt.  However, even if the blade was blunt (ie not sharp) the move would have at least broken the guards legs if not cut them off just from the force alone.  Now, if you want to believe there were no casualties, so that Henry and Cinders are not the bad guys in this scene, then be my guest!  Within the actual realm of the story though, I think that's highly unlikely, and I think they did cause a few casualties and injuries.  But it's also my prerogative to believe that. 

3 hours ago, daxx said:

Yeah, it didn't look like everyone came away uninjured. Unlike the scene in the season 3 finale where it was pretty clear Hook was knocking out all the black guards.

Injuries, certainly, but not casualties. Not within the realm of the story. They *should* have if this were real. But Once doesn't follow realistic rules of combat physics and you're not meant to believe they killed anyone whose death wasn't explicitly shown. Knocking people away and "defeating" them with your sword without killing them is a time-honored TV combat trope, and Once isn't the only offender. Also the trope that the protagonists had the convenient good luck not to need to kill anyone, to preserve their good guy status.

 

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think it could have been interesting to have Emma cursed as a Hyperion Height's social worker, given her real life background as having grown up in the system.  Especially if the writers had gone with one of the Cinderella set ups like @Shanna Marie described.  If Jacinderella had been in trouble and lost custody once before, which is why she was living with her step-mother and Lucy was known to have run away previously, Emma could have been the social worker assigned to the case.  She could have also interacted with Rogers on one of the times that Lucy disappeared.  

That would have been a logical role for her. In fact, it strikes me as probably what would have happened.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[CheshireCat]

On ‎07‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 2:47 PM, KingOfHearts said:

 The twists are no longer twists because Snow White is not really Snow White. She's just Snow White #481516. It goes from, "here's what really happened" to "this is what could have happened". Of all the thousands of possible universes, how was it the Enchanted Forest and New Realm just so happened to be the realms that got cursed in our world? It's just so random. 

I think all versions of the fairy tales are told as "here's what really happened" and are only a "this is what could have happened" version if you think about it. Many fairy tale characters, including Snow White, existed but they're still just stories because no one wrote them down originally. And the concept that many Versions exist of these stories isn't something that Once invented. I mean, how many Cinderella/Cinderella-like stories are out there? I can think of four from the top of my head.

I think if it's a "here's what really happened" or a "this is what could have happened" depends on how you look at it and how you want to look at it.

 

On ‎09‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 0:23 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Lady Tremaine had the flippin' bloody knife up her sleeve!  Why not just say, 'I didn't kill the prince, she did! (Point finger at LT) Look and see, she's got the murder weapon hidden in her sleeve!'  Problem solved and no innocent guards had to die.

I wondered about that, too. I explained it with the fact that they are pulling some elements from the times the stories were set in, and that maybe experience had taught Cinderella/Henry that the guards wouldn't listen, that her stepmother's word would always be taken over Cinderella's (so, if LT claims Cinderella thrust the knife into her hand, they'd believe LT) and that Cinderella would end up being considered the guilty one anyway because of her stepmother's better social standing

 

22 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Sorry, Roni. Your bar ain't no Granny's. At least when Storybrooke was a ghost town, the dinner was still busy.

I think that's the point, that it's not busy.

Wasn't there a Q&A with the showrunners in which they said that this curse isn't so much about taking away the happy endings but to separate everyone from one another?

[justmythoughts]

What have I seen? I was hoping I would not miss Emma, Snow, Charming (even less Belle and Zelena... Storybroke, the Granny's...), specially after the crappy plots they got over the years... But oh boy, I do miss all of the old formula.

So I am honestly confused: is this supposed to be other realm? So this Ronni is not Storybroke Regina? Detective Rogers is a different version of our Killian? Have they lived different lives than it was told from S1 until now? 

Or somehow we are supposed to believe that Cinderella 2.meh is from another realm/book and got somehow mixed with Henry's version?

Seriously, does any of you know? Help me!

See... Confusing, no chemistry, no interesting background story, no faith that A&E can pull this off, missing old friends faces... I am hopeless.

Edited October 10, 2017 by justmythoughts

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 minutes ago, justmythoughts said:

What have I seen? I was hoping I would not miss Emma, Snow, Charming (even less Belle and Zelena... Storybroke, the Granny's...), specially after the crappy plots they get over the years... But oh boy, I do miss all of the old formula.

So I am honestly confused: is this supposed to be other realm? So this Ronni is not Storybroke Regina? Detective Rogers is a different version of our Killian? Have they lived different lives than it was told from S1 until now? 

Or somehow we are supposed to believe that Cinderella 2.meh is from another realmente/book and got somehow mixed with Henry's version?

Seriously, does any of you know? Help me!

See... Confusing, no chemistry, no interesting background story, no faith that A&E van pull this off, missing old friends faces... I am hopeless.

This is the same Land Without Magic. Roni, Rogers and Weaver are in Seattle because Regina, Hook and Rumple came to the realm Cinderella is from in order to help Henry and were caught in the new Dark Curse like he was and given new identities in Seattle like he was. Cinderella 2 is not mixed with Cinderella 1. There are different versions of the classic fairytale characters in different realms and Henry has been exploring them all.

[Mitch]

23 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Sorry, Roni. Your bar ain't no Granny's. At least when Storybrooke was a ghost town, the dinner was still bus

See, I always thought Granny's was a stupid place to drink and have celebrations. Its a diner, its more of a breakfast, lunch place then a..."Hey, I need a drink to celebrate the 200th villain showdown in the middle of main street where a convenient magical device saved the day."  I like that we now have a "real, honest to goodness bar and thankfully it has no dumb a** Leroy sitting around!

 

36 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Cinderella 2 is not mixed with Cinderella 1. There are different versions of the classic fairytale characters in different realms and Henry has been exploring them all.

They could have simply explained this that the magical lands got a reset when Emma died and her sacrifice saved the lands. They could say magic got sucked out of Storybrooke so that everyone there stayed there...(i.e. Ashley) and the realms were started back to square one...so we have a new Cinders.  Dummie Henry goes to find out what happened and then we start over with his "meet cute" with Cinders.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Injuries, certainly, but not casualties.

As I said, that's your interpretation.  But not mine.  

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Not within the realm of the story. They *should* have if this were real.

Ah, but this IS real - at least within the realm of the story!

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

But Once doesn't follow realistic rules of combat physics and you're not meant to believe they killed anyone whose death wasn't explicitly shown.

Once doesn't follow realistic rules of anything.  Using this same analogy, I guess I'm not meant to believe there was a true threat that Lady Tremaine could take Lucy away from Jacinderella since legal paperwork wasn't explicitly shown.  And yet, I don't think that's what the show was attempting to imply.

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Knocking people away and "defeating" them with your sword without killing them is a time-honored TV combat trope,

Not on Once.  Usually, if there is sword play and one person goes down, it means that that person died.  Just because they don't show the blood like other shows, doesn't mean that not what they intend.  I'm trying to remember another time something like that might have happened - "knocking people away and defeating them them with a sword without killing them", and I can't.  If you can provide another - good - example on Once, I'll gladly take a look.   As @daxx pointed out, it was clear in the scene with Hook in the S3 finale.  It was not clear to me in this scene.  So if that's what you take away from it, but I don't, then the director utterly failed.  

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Also the trope that the protagonists had the convenient good luck not to need to kill anyone, to preserve their good guy status.

Sorry, but if the one guard's leg(s) were broken as a result and whatever other injuries may have occurred from Henry and Cinders escaping when said guards were only doing their jobs, that doesn't preserve any good-guy status for these protagonists imo.    

[Noneofyourbusiness]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Once doesn't follow realistic rules of anything.  Using this same analogy, I guess I'm not meant to believe there was a true threat that Lady Tremaine could take Lucy away from Jacinderella since legal paperwork wasn't explicitly shown.  And yet, I don't think that's what the show was attempting to imply.

No, that would be the reverse of what I'm saying. If they say her threat is real, then we're meant to take it as such regardless of whether it would be realistic in real life or not that she could do that. Same for the unrealistically deathless combat that's shown.

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not on Once.  Usually, if there is sword play and one person goes down, it means that that person died.

We didn't see any bodies staying down on the floor here. And as I said, when Cinderella knocked that one guy over into the table we saw and heard her sword bounce off his chainmail.

Camera One got the same impression reviewing the battle scenes as I did.

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sorry, but if the one guard's leg(s) were broken as a result and whatever other injuries may have occurred from Henry and Cinders escaping when said guards were only doing their jobs, that doesn't preserve any good-guy status for these protagonists imo.    

I doubt the creators know enough about real combat to know the guy's leg should have been broken. It's that kind of show. Everything is handwaved. If you're expecting realistic consequences, you're going to be disappointed.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[RulerofallIsurvey]

58 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I wondered about that, too. I explained it with the fact that they are pulling some elements from the times the stories were set in, and that maybe experience had taught Cinderella/Henry that the guards wouldn't listen, that her stepmother's word would always be taken over Cinderella's (so, if LT claims Cinderella thrust the knife into her hand, they'd believe LT) and that Cinderella would end up being considered the guilty one anyway because of her stepmother's better social standing

Did the stepmother really have a better social standing than Cinderella though?  I'm not sure the Disney version ever addressed how Lady Tremaine became Lady Tremaine.  That is, was she a 'Lady' before she married Cinderella's father, or did she become a 'Lady' as a result of the marriage? 

In Perault's version, "A wealthy widower marries a proud and haughty woman as his second wife."  I think it's easy to presume that the second wife didn't have as much money as Cinderella's father, so he - and by direct relation - she would have higher social standing than the in-laws.  

In the Brother's Grimm version: "A plague infests a village, and a wealthy gentleman's wife lies on her deathbed. She calls for her only daughter, and tells her to remain good and kind, as God would protect her. She then dies and is buried. The child visits her mother's grave everyday to grieve and a year goes by. The gentleman marries another woman with two older daughters from a previous marriage."   But again, no mention of whether the second wife had a lower, equal, or higher social standing than the 'wealthy gentleman'.  

And if the Disney version pulled elements from the times in which the stories were set, then would a 'Lady' still be a 'Lady' if she married beneath her social standing?  For some reason, I don't think so.  So, if I am correct in that, then either Cinderella's father and Lady Tremaine were of equal social standing or Cinderella's dad was of higher social standing than the step-mother.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And if the Disney version pulled elements from the times in which the stories were set, then would a 'Lady' still be a 'Lady' if she married beneath her social standing?  For some reason, I don't think so.  So, if I am correct in that, then either Cinderella's father and Lady Tremaine were of equal social standing or Cinderella's dad was of higher social standing than the step-mother.  

And Cinderella said to the Prince that she was from a poor, simple family or something like that. But the previous Cinderella, Ashley, also was referred to by her stepmother as if she were a dirty, uneducated commoner, which doesn't make sense if Lady Tremaine married her father. So there appears to be a lack of consistency caused by the show trying to have their cake and eat it, too, with a commoner Cinderella and an aristocrat stepmother regardless of internal logic.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

33 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

We didn't see any bodies staying down on the floor here. And as I said, when Cinderella knocked that one guy over into the table we saw and heard her sword bounce off his chainmail.

I didn't see any bodies get up.  

This is the last wide shot of of the scene.  The rest is close ups of Henry and Cinders and there are no guards to be seen at all in the background.  (Henry's still chopping away at innocent guard #Ilostcount here.)  So, like I said, if you want to believe that the guards all got up, walked away, patted each other on the back and said, "that was one heck of a fight!  How about a mead?" then you go right ahead.  Personally, I think there were injuries and casualties to be had.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I doubt the creators know enough about real combat to know the guy's leg should have been broken. It's that kind of show. Everything is handwaved.

True - but then that contradicts your statement that "If they say her threat is real, then we're meant to take it as such regardless of whether it would be realistic in real life or not."  IMO, the the show implicitly stated that the threat was real, otherwise, they'd have just pulled out toy wood swords, not big metal ones.  And if we're meant to assume that the threat of injury during combat with metal swords is real, then real injuries must have been sustained during said combat.  You seem to want to have it both ways: handwave the injuries/casualties, but have the fight be 'real'.  I think I'll just agree to disagree at this point.  

17 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

And Cinderella said to the Prince that she was from a poor, simple family or something like that.

Which Cinderella?  Jacinderella?  

17 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

So there appears to be a lack of consistency caused by the show trying to have their cake and eat it, too,

Yes,  The show does this a lot.  :)

Edited October 10, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey