A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[angelwoody]

There was so much gold to be mined from the lost year in the EF that I really can't believe they skipped it.  They could have let the whole year unfold in fairybacks over the course of the season, (like they did in S1) and had everyone trying to figure out who the witch was and stop her in the present.  It would have been much more interesting than a lot of what we ended up getting.

 

I don't like the split season because it seems to mean that they have to skip a lot of character development in order to sprint through each half season's story whilst quickly tagging plot points A, B, C, D, etc.  

Is it obnoxious to quote oneself?  :-)  I posted this in the Regina thread as a response to another post and then realized that I hadn't mentioned Regina at all! Seemed a better fit here.

[yeswedo]

@angelwoody - you're fine doing it this way but we can also move posts if needed. Send a PM to one of the mods or report your post and ask to have it moved.

[Camera One]

I agree. If Zelena wasn't so obvious (or she was actually a total misdirect), it would've been a more thrilling half-season. It's the mysteries the audience doesn't know the answers to that keeps viewers talking and coming back to see what's going to happen next. I know I did in 3B when I wanted to know what in the world Zelena's plan was. (As you can imagine, I was disappointed at the outcome.)

 

S1 had the same thing with the Kathryn murder. It was so obvious that Regina was the answer... but Kathryn being alive in the end kept it climactic somewhat. In both scenarios, Emma thrived. I just wish the outcomes were more investigative and less contrived.

 

I wonder if the difference is that in 3B, we knew Zelena's identity while the characters didn't.  I actually hate it when shows do this because it's really frustrating to watch.  I even found that to some extent in Season 1; for example, knowing that Sidney was conning Emma but Emma didn't know.  But they were usually smart enough not to drag it out.

 

The "Who was the Wicked Witch in Storybrooke?" mystery didn't work, since we knew and the characters didn't.  It might have been creepier to find the farmhouse but they couldn't find its occupant, and meanwhile in the flashbacks, they never saw the Witch but saw her effects (eg. threatening message in the sky).  Having multiple suspects (a few new characters, Zelena among them) in Storybrooke could have made it a mystery, but that would have been hard to write.  Another thing I thought of was using an idea from the second and third Oz books, which was 

having the Wicked Witch be disguised in Storybrooke as an inanimate object, which the main characters had to deduce with clues.

.  With this method, they really wouldn't have needed to cast Zelena until the last few episodes.  But since they needed to make Zelena all about Regina, they wanted her to be front and center.

 

With the assumption that Zelena must be there, I think simply having no magic in Storybrooke (which would have been consistent with the first Curse) would have made a huge difference in the story.  Zelena was way too overpowered and Emma and the team could have used their smarts to have the conflict be more of a draw.  If Zelena had to hide physically, using physical means, then Emma could track her.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

With the assumption that Zelena must be there, I think simply having no magic in Storybrooke (which would have been consistent with the first Curse) would have made a huge difference in the story.  Zelena was way too overpowered and Emma and the team could have used their smarts to have the conflict be more of a draw.  If Zelena had to hide physically, using physical means, then Emma could track her.

 

This. Zelena's overpowered magic was so lame, and her having the dagger only made it worse. If they really wanted Wicked Vs. Evil, they should have at least leveled the playing field a bit. I suspected Zelena to be an exact match for Regina, but I was wrong. Big Bads are only threats if they have massive handicaps, apparently.

 

The question of who created the curse should have held more weight than it did. In the past, the curse caster had control over everyone under the curse. But since that got washed away with Snow's half-hearted curse casting (Pun intended), there was no reason to know who cast the curse. It made no difference if Zelena had casted it, or even Granny for that matter. There was no dark and nefarious plot tied up with it - the curse itself was just a plot device to undo the reset.

 

They should have waited until the last minute to reveal Zelena's plan. After the ending to 3x16, I knew exactly what was going to go down, and it was predictable from there on out. There was a million other interesting ways Zelena could have gotten exactly what she wanted without breaking the laws of magic. I feel like the time travel plot was thrown in there for A&E's Back to the Future adventure, quite honestly.

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The "Who was the Wicked Witch in Storybrooke?" mystery didn't work, since we knew and the characters didn't.  It might have been creepier to find the farmhouse but they couldn't find its occupant, and meanwhile in the flashbacks, they never saw the Witch but saw her effects (eg. threatening message in the sky).  Having multiple suspects (a few new characters, Zelena among them) in Storybrooke could have made it a mystery, but that would have been hard to write.

I really do think they should have held out the revelation that Zelena was the Wicked Witch a lot longer because us knowing made us see the characters as idiots. They needed a red herring villain, like maybe a Miss Gulch type who was also new in town, and everyone could have suspected her instead of sweet, pretty Zelena. Then in the flashbacks, we really needed to see more of the threat, more action on the part of the characters instead of them sitting around for nearly a year before essentially shrugging and doing the curse. We needed more of a ticking clock -- if we can't stop her now, we're doomed, so we have no choice.

[KingOfHearts]

They needed a red herring villain, like maybe a Miss Gulch type who was also new in town, and everyone could have suspected her instead of sweet, pretty Zelena.

 

 

 

Perhaps she feigns to be Glinda, then we finally see in the flashbacks who Glinda really is. The Miss Gulch character could look more like the Wizard of Oz witch (not ginger) to throw everyone off the trail too.

Edited August 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[daxx]

Just watched Quiet Minds through A Curious Thing. Ugh, what a trudge. Except for The Jolly Roger it was barely watchable.

I did enjoy watching the Jolly Roger again. I think it would be nice to follow that ep with Snow Drifts and There's No Place Like Home.

So one thing I noticed in A Curious Thing, Hook said who would have been able to make a memory potion and would know where Emma was. Rumple must have known exactly where Emma was since Zelena had the monkey watching her, so Neal must have also known. The brief note he wrote must have also told Hook where she was. Neal is one speedy writer. lol

[YaddaYadda]

Didn't Neal also tear his sleeve to write the message?  I still call foul on the whole Zelena sending flying monkeys to all the realms, including the one without magic to keep an eye on various people.  I thought jumping realm was supposed to be difficult, but it's like taking the subway from Manhattan to Brooklyn, it's just effin' annoying!

Edited August 16, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[daxx]

I will give them the one with the monkeys, given that mermaids can cross realms it isn't out of the question that flying monkeys can.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Didn't Neal also tear his sleeve to write the message?  I still call foul on the whole Zelena sending flying monkeys to all the realms, including the one without magic to keep an eye on various people.  I thought jumping realm was supposed to be difficult, but it's like taking the subway from Manhattan to Brooklyn, it's just effin' annoying!

 

My theory is Oz has a special connection with other realms. Since Zelena, Dorothy, Glinda and Walsh all traveled to and from it, I'd say Oz has some kind of "opening" that Enchanted Forest doesn't have. There's even Silver Slippers, a type of item Rumple was never able to come close to finding in EF, and then the cyclones. The "wall between realms" probably doesn't apply there, either.

 

On a slightly different note... I was really hoping Glinda would come to Storybrooke and be an actual new character, not just Blue Fairy 2.0 for two episodes.

Edited August 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Sabs]

I will give them the one with the monkeys, given that mermaids can cross realms it isn't out of the question that flying monkeys can.

well then why don't they just turn people into flying monkeys temporarily as a realm crossing messenger pigeon thing...

[Shanna Marie]

Since my cable was being wonky due to weather, I ended up continuing my rewatch. "Lacey" strikes me as one of those things where they sent some unintended messages. I was kind of cracking up about David counseling Gold to be the man Belle fell in love with because that's how he and Mary Margaret fell in love again in spite of the curse and having no memory of each other -- and then Lacey finds him boring but becomes interested when she sees him being evil. Did they really mean to say that all Belle's talk about being able to read people's hearts and know when people are good inside is actually a bunch of nonsense, and what Belle was attracted to all this time actually was the darkness in Rumple? I know she's since then talked about even loving the darkness in him, but the way it was framed in this episode, it really looked like the real turn-on for her was his torture of Robin, not his letting Robin get away after curing Marian, and I somehow doubt that was what they meant to show. Robin 1.0 was a lot more interesting than his replacement.

 

I also got a bit of a giggle out of all Greg and Tamara's talk about "the package" because it was such clumsy writing aimed at making us wonder what they were up to, especially since they had no reason to be talking in code when they were alone with each other, and even if they wanted to avoid anyone overhearing them and knowing it was Hook, it would have been less suspicious if they'd just said "him." The part that really cracked me up was when one asked "is it stable?" because I don't think the word "stable" would ever be used to describe Hook.

 

"The Evil Queen" isn't as bad as I remembered, unless you consider the context. Taken on its own, it's verification that Regina is an insane narcissist. It's only when she gets called a hero two episodes later for stopping her own plan to destroy the whole town so she can have Henry to herself and when she gets to have powerful light magic without ever having apologized or even admitted she was wrong about anything she's done in spite of having done stuff like slaughtering whole villages that this episode becomes painful. It really bothers me that Henry apparently never has regained his memories of her talking to him about her plan to kill everyone and her being absolutely baffled by him not being on board with it because it means that any good relationship they have now is built on a foundation of lies. If he remembered and if he knew she'd altered his memories, would he feel the same way about her? (What am I saying? On this show, he probably would still think she's awesome.) They pretty much made Regina unredeemable in this episode, so it makes no sense that they then go and redeem her a couple of episodes later without her changing at all.

 

I also liked the Hook stuff. I'd forgotten just how scary he could be when angry or cornered. His eyes just go wild, like he's barely holding back from snapping entirely. This must have been right after the broken leg healed enough for him to walk because his limp was really bad and was different from the fake limp before the broken leg. We see that first glimpse of self-awareness about the futility of revenge, and I wonder if Regina betraying him the way she did was part of what tipped the scales -- realizing that he really did have no one he could count on and that was because of the people he was dealing with and the deals he was making. I noticed that he recognized Maleficent right away, even in her altered form, which makes me wonder if there's some backstory there. I guess if he was making deals with Cora and Regina pre-curse, he could also have been in touch with Maleficent (I'm still campaigning for Maleficent for 4B).

[YaddaYadda]

Shanna Marie, I've been campaigning for Maleficent since the whole black fairy wand thing made its appearance.  I was hoping she would be kicking off Season 4.  Girlfriend has a lot of people to go after.  Always thought it was interesting that both Emma and Hook got to tangle with her in Storybrooke as well.  Though I still think she looked like a messed up Pokémon when Hook was facing her.

[KingOfHearts]

I actually thought Lacey was a funny episode, if you don't think too hard about how creepy it is. Belle the Barfly cracks me up a little, with the "Don Juan" joke in the same scene. Even the flashbacks weren't that bad, and I wholeheartedly agree about Robin Hood. I would probably root for Outlaw Queen more if we had the original guy instead. Overall, Lacey is decent for a 2B episode.

 

The Evil Queen isn't a bad episode per se, but it totally ruins Regina. Regina was literally seconds away from redeeming herself in the flashbacks when she was talking to Snow, then wham - the writers quickly knock it down with a village massacre. If all it took for Regina to repent was being told by Snow she had good in her, she should have been redeemed a looong time ago.

 

I personally found the village killing out of character, to the point that I've blocked it out of my memory from time to time. Before this point, I knew Regina was sadistic, but I also knew she had a definite goal she was trying to accomplish. It's not that all the villagers were in the way to Snow, either. It was entirely possible that some of them never even saw Snow, and didn't know what to say. I knew Regina was bad, but not that bad. Killing masses of people because she couldn't find Snow seemed really stupid, and I for one don't understand why the writers even wrote it in there. If they were trying to sell us on Regina's redemption arc, why do they keep bringing Regina lower and lower?

 

My favorite line of the episode was... "Through the charred remains of their homes, I'm sure that will be perfectly clear." Even Rumple is more sensible than Regina.

[stealinghome]

Oh yeah, by far the best aspect of 'The Evil Queen' is when even Rumpel is boggled that Regina can't add 2+2 and realize that when you kill lots of people, other people don't like you. Just the faces Carlyle made and his tone of voice crack me up. You just know he's like "this numbskull is going to be the one to cast the curse? REALLY?"

 

I actually thought Lacey was a funny episode, if you don't think too hard about how creepy it is. Belle the Barfly cracks me up a little, with the "Don Juan" joke in the same scene. Even the flashbacks weren't that bad, and I wholeheartedly agree about Robin Hood. I would probably root for Outlaw Queen more if we had the original guy instead. Overall, Lacey is decent for a 2B episode.

Yeah, Tom Ellis had more presence, charm, and charisma in one episode as Robin Hood than Sean Maguire was able to muster in all of S3 combined. Though Ellis must be thanking his lucky stars that he avoided the dreck that was Outlaw Queen in 3B.

 

I agree that Lacey is actually one of the better episodes of 2B (especially post-'Miller's Daughter'), it's just that that's not saying a lot. My frustration is that, much like 'The Evil Queen,' it's not terrible when taken on its own--the dialogue is fun, Rumpel and Charming play well off each other when they're Don Juaning it--but it really destroys Rumbelle (both past and present) when you put it in the context of their larger storyline. And the fact that the show wouldn't even deal with the fallout of the whole Lacey thing realistically (Belle isn't bothered one whit about how Rumpel embraces being dark with Lacey?) just exacerbates it.

[Shanna Marie]

Regina is so self-centered and impulsive that I don't know that the village slaughter was that out of character for her. She's a sociopath who barely acknowledges the existence of other people other than to fulfill her own wishes. She was willing to murder her own father to get her way. Having her soldiers kill a village would have a lot less impact on her. It's also consistent with her plan to kill everyone else in Storybrooke so she can have Henry to herself.

 

But, yeah, it does ruin her for being anything other than a villain, which makes everything that comes later problematic. Can someone who's willing to essentially commit genocide be redeemed just by stopping the genocidal acts? It starts to look dangerously like all the ex-Nazis who went to ground and lived out ordinary lives after the war. Were they redeemed because they were no longer killing people, or was more required of them for justice to be achieved? With Regina's actions and plans in this episode, throwing out the Nazi comparison isn't really hyperbole, since she was willing to kill entire towns of people because she thought they got in the way of her happiness. Then there were her lies about Snow, trying to pin Snow's father's murder on Snow. And how many times has Snow apologized for killing Cora and for Daniel's death? And how many times has Regina apologized to Snow? Hmmm?

 

Meanwhile, we have the Snow lobotomy where we see Snow react to the slaughter of villagers, and yet this happened before Snow had Regina captive and refused to execute her. This is where the nonlinear nature of the fairybacks can be a problem. If you've established something, you're stuck with it. If you've already had your good guys refuse to execute the villain, then you probably shouldn't come up with a story that happens before that in which the villain does something that egregious.

[KingOfHearts]

When you look at Regina now it's not all that out of character, but at that point of time it did, because Regina hadn't done anything that low or genocidal up to that point. In S2, there was still hope for Regina to turn out to not be a super psychopath, but the writers threw that down the toilet with this. It basically sent the message that since Regina is supposedly redeeming herself, they don't care how bad she was in the past. But the more evil and psychopathic they make her, the less and less sellable she becomes in the present as a redeemed character. It's counter-productive is what it is.

 

There is really nothing "glamorous" about killing innocent people for no good reason. It wasn't that they were trying to keep her Evil-Queen-ish, but I see it as though it was just a plot device to stop Snow from forgiving Regina in the past. That's what the writers don't realize - when they throw in their twists and plot devices, it wrecks the characters in the process.

 

The inconsistency really glares when you see Snow saying Regina can't possibly turn around after seeing the dead bodies, and not long after she thinks Regina is just misunderstood.

 

 

You just know he's like "this numbskull is going to be the one to cast the curse? REALLY?"

 

Her craziness and blindness is probably what makes her the perfect candidate!

Edited August 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

The inconsistency really glares when you see Snow saying Regina can't possibly turn around after seeing the dead bodies, and not long after she thinks Regina is just misunderstood.

I actually think the bigger inconsistency it causes is with 'The Cricket Game,' where Snow is content to banish Regina because Regina can't physically harm her or Charming, but Snow says something like "If you hurt anyone in my kingdom, I'm kill you." But it's like...Snow, she's already killed a bunch of people from your kingdom! What makes you think she won't just go out and massacre another village????

 

I really think 'Welcome to Storybrooke' (present day) and 'The Evil Queen' (both present day and fairybacks) did 50% of all the damage S2 did to Regina. If you take out those two episodes, I honestly believe the Regina character would seem at least 30% more salvageable.

[regularlyleaded]

When you look at Regina now it's not all that out of character, but at that point of time it did, because Regina hadn't done anything that low or genocidal up to that point.

I don't know. I realize everyone has their own measuring stick, but for me I think Regina crossed the moral event horizon when she was trying to murder newborn Emma. She made every effort to kill an innocent, newborn (just minutes old) infant. Baby Emma's biggest crime was merely existing and Regina thought, "Whelp, something else to kill. Gotta get my happiness on!" I'm sorry, but that's beyond the pale. The slaughter of an entire village was just further evidence that Regina is a raging homocidal psychopath.

 

...I find myself in constant and utter disbelief (and pissed) that Snow talks to Regina let alone spends her time kissing her ass and telling her how good she is...she "feels with her soul" y'all. *vomit*. Just...asjkdhqi!@#$!...no words. I have no more words.

[KingOfHearts]

 

...I find myself in constant and utter disbelief (and pissed) that Snow talks to Regina let alone spends her time kissing her ass and telling her how good she is...she "feels with her soul" y'all. *vomit*. Just...asjkdhqi!@#$!...no words. I have no more words.

That's a major kick in the face to Emma, too. Instead of defending her daughter and speaking up for Emma, she's encouraging the woman who tried to murder and poison her on separate occasions. Snow is seriously bipolar - at times she wants to kill Regina, then other times she's her advocate. We saw both of this in Evil Queen... in the same freaking scene!

 

The difference between killing the baby and this particular genocide, at least to me, is that Regina had absolutely no benefit or reason to do it. Neither is justified, but expecting a kingdom to love you after slaughtering villages isn't just evil - it's stupid. When Rumple kills someone, it's a calculated murder. When Regina kills villages, it's because she's having a bad day.

 

It's not that Regina did a horrible act, but that the writers just threw it in there without thinking how much it harms her redemption in the long run. It doesn't compute in the grand scheme at all. It was just very dumb, especially if they were trying to redeem her, which we know now they were.

 

 

I actually think the bigger inconsistency it causes is with 'The Cricket Game,' where Snow is content to banish Regina because Regina can't physically harm her or Charming, but Snow says something like "If you hurt anyone in my kingdom, I'm kill you." But it's like...Snow, she's already killed a bunch of people from your kingdom! What makes you think she won't just go out and massacre another village????

 

Yeah. In the timeline, Evil Queen happened before Cricket Game, which makes it all the worse. Snow openly contradicts herself. Humorously, Rumple also makes a remark about Regina in Cricket Game. "(laughing with sarcasm) Regina redeemed? What a novel thought."

Edited August 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

When you look at Regina now it's not all that out of character, but at that point of time it did, because Regina hadn't done anything that low or genocidal up to that point.

She might not have killed that many people all at once (at least not onscreen), but she'd shown a willingness to kill anyone who stood between her and her happiness. If she's willing to murder her father so she can be happy, would she flinch at killing nameless peasants? She also sent numerous children to their deaths and separated Hansel and Gretel from their father because they didn't love her, tried to arrange Kathryn's murder just so she could frame Snow for it (and she'd seemed truly touched that Kathryn considered her a friend), murdered Graham because he didn't love her, and murdered Owen's father because a kid didn't want to stay and play house with her. Having her soldiers slaughter villagers because they refused to believe her lies about Snow and persisted in seeing her as a bad guy rather than hating Snow and loving her sounds like her style.

 

However, I'm afraid that plot was done with the intention of making Snow look responsible for Regina's evil -- if only Snow had been willing to forgive and love her unconditionally instead of putting limits on her affection, Regina could have been saved. It's all Snow's fault for being so judgey.

 

Then we get to the next episode where Regina's rationalization for getting out the failsafe to kill everyone in town was that they were going to leave her behind. I just wish people were allowed to talk back to Regina and point out that there's a huge difference between killing everyone and leaving her behind in the town she herself created and brought them all to, and the fact that she was going to kill everyone in town to get what she wanted validates their decision to leave her behind where she can't do any more harm. But no, Snow had to flinch and look guilty.

[Shanna Marie]

From the "And Straight on 'Til Morning" episode thread:

 

but yeah, in terms of "Holy shit, how the hell am I going to wait till September to find out what happens next?!" it was nowhere near as satisfying as 1x22.

I've been thinking about the finales. Of course, the season one finale had the huge impact of knowing it was a game changer. The world of the story would be different from that point on. The relationships would change, the stakes would change. It wasn't so much a "question" cliffhanger in the sense of posing a question like "will they survive?" or "how will they get out of this?" or "will they save the person in jeopardy?" as it was a situational cliffhanger that set up a whole new world where anything could happen and we didn't know what would happen. Then they mostly squandered that by not doing too much with the new situation and not showing how a new order was being established.

 

The season two finale was more of a standard TV cliffhanger in the sense that it put a main character in jeopardy, and we all knew he was going to be saved eventually. It seemed to change the situation by sending most of the main cast to a new place, but we never got a sense of what that new place was like, so they didn't use that. The characters were their same old selves in the new place (unlike season 2, where Emma and Snow had a role reversal because Emma was the fish out of water and Snow was in her element).

 

The 3A finale had potential because it looked like a game changer that totally shook up the status quo, except they were right back to where they started by the end of one episode. I did kind of have the "wow, I wonder what happens next!" feeling at the end because we knew something had to have happened during that year for Hook to show up in New York, though it was pretty much a given that they'd be back to normal eventually because I didn't think they were going to give up on the Storybrooke concept entirely. It might have been cool if they'd delayed long enough for there to be some doubt, but then Storybrooke had to be there for Hook to be able to be there, so I guess we already knew. Maybe if there'd been something noticeably different about Storybrooke other than the missing memories and Snow's pregnancy it might have worked better, like maybe the changes that happened during the missing year in the Enchanted Forest were somewhat reflected in the way things were in Storybrooke -- David and Mary Margaret living with Regina in her mansion, for example, like they were all living in the castle together.

 

I'm actually kind of okay with the not really a cliffhanger ending of 3B because I think season-ending cliffhangers have become such a cliche and you know the characters left in jeopardy are going to be okay. It's so very rare on network TV for the day not to be saved in the cliffhanger conclusion that there's no real suspense. There's nothing wrong with just wrapping up a story and leaving the characters in an interesting place, with a bit of a hint about what they might face next. I'm not on the edge of my seat about seeing what happens next, but enough of the characters were in emotional limbo that I'm curious to see where they go from there -- Belle and Rumple's relationship, Hook and Emma's relationship, Regina and her triangle, what's Emma going to do now that she's staying, how will Hook fit in with the town now that he's apparently stuck, etc.

[stealinghome]

I also think that something that worked against both the S2 and S3 finales is that the "cliffhanger" for both basically came totally out of left field and was something the main cast hadn't really been connected to. Greg&Tamara sucked and everyone hated them, but a major part of that was that they were so disconnected from the main cast; their plot was so random, it had nothing to do with the other major plotlines. I agree that the S3 finale was a better finale because we can see potential problems brewing (Rumbelle, how will Captain Swan develop, watching Snowing+Snowflake, etc), but the "hook"--Elsa--is similarly disconnected. Hell, the S3 finale was entirely disconnected from the rest of the season in general.

Whereas the S1 finale as well as 3x11 worked not just because they were HUGE game-changers, and also were actually emotional, but because they were the climax of the season's (or half-season's) main plotline. They felt like they were ACTUALLY finishing a story, playing out it's consequences, giving real finality to things that had been brewing for the entire (half-)season.

Edited August 18, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

 

Hell, the S3 finale was entirely disconnected from the rest of the season in general.

 

That the finale was entirely disconnected from the rest of 3B is the only reason I'm willing to try out Season 4. However, the ending of the finale didn't make me excited for next season either. I couldn't care less about Frozen and endless Regina love triangle angst makes me want to throw up, so they failed to really engage my interest in future stories. We'll see.

[Shanna Marie]

Greg&Tamara sucked and everyone hated them, but a major part of that was that they were so disconnected from the main cast; their plot was so random, it had nothing to do with the other major plotlines.

That story arc sucked on so many levels that it makes me angry to the point of stabby. Greg as a character was terrible, but the problem was that he was actually the victim. As a boy, he had done absolutely nothing wrong. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and had a town and a curse dropped on him, then he and his father didn't want to stay and make a happy family in this creepy town with Regina. For that, he lost everything. He was left utterly alone after already having lost his mother, and he was also left with no evidence of what happened so you can just imagine what the rest of his life was like. His life was ruined by Regina. If there's ever truly a case of "evil isn't born, it's made," then it would be him, and Regina made him. Killing his father instead of letting him go when she realized they weren't going to stay willingly was just vindictive. And yet the show turned him into a villain and made Regina into a victim and then a hero for foiling him. The others were willing to risk everything to keep Regina from dying to stop the failsafe she got out with the intent of killing everyone and that got hijacked by Greg when he wanted to get back at her and destroy her and the town that had ruined his life after she gloated about killing his father. All of this was happening because of Regina's selfishness, and she didn't once seem to realize just how much it was her fault. In all that "I can't leave Henry alone" stuff, it never seemed to click with her that this was exactly what she did to Owen. That's why I have issues with Regina's so-called redemption -- she keeps finding herself in situations that are almost identical to what she's done to other people, and it never seems to occur to her that what she's going through is what she's put other people through. Worse, I sometimes think the writers are oblivious to the fact that they keep doing these parallels.

 

At any rate, the Home Office stuff was silly, but the anti-magic storyline was a potentially juicy one, with an antagonist who's actually a victim and who might have been able to be turned/saved by seeing that magic could be used for good and that not all magic users were bad. Too bad they wasted that theme on this silliness. And then it didn't make sense at all to connect this to Pan. Pan is from a pre-industrial world that probably doesn't even have the concept of an "office" and he's an eternal child trying to avoid adult responsibilities. Even if he did have an elaborate organization in place to search for the Truest Believer, I can't imagine him calling it a "Home Office." I could see him manipulating a Lost Boy like Owen, but would he really come up with the anti-magic ruse? It was like they had this one plot going that wasn't working then changed their minds and decided to go to Neverland, so they waved their hands and said, "Uh, it was Pan behind it all along?" It would maybe have worked better if the Shadow had swooped in and stolen Henry while they were distracted by the failsafe rather than trying to connect those two plots.

[KingOfHearts]

Greg was a villain though. He tried to kill the whole town and kidnapped Henry. He's just as much of a victim as Regina is for losing Daniel. What makes him a villain is what he chose to do about it after becoming an adult. He'd go around killing and kidnapping for revenge on Regina and magic. I feel sympathy for the boy, but not the man. All that being said, Greg/Tamara were the most annoying villains ever.

 

 

I can't imagine him calling it a "Home Office."

I think one of his Lost Boys or spies suggested that one. They called it that so Greg/Tamara would take the bait.

Edited August 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I don't disagree that adult Greg was a villain. I just hate that they turned him into a villain after that backstory. He had a legitimate gripe against Regina and a legitimate reason to be opposed to magic, but they took him so far over the top that it ended up making Regina into the victim, so we're in this show's usual pattern of victim blaming whenever anyone is in opposition to Regina. When they were facing off before the torture and the failsafe, she kept acting like she was the wronged and wounded party even as she kept lying to him about what happened to his father. Destroying the whole town was wrongheaded, but then again, if you look at it from his perspective, everything he's seen of this town has indicated that everyone is 100 percent behind Regina. When he was a kid, I don't think he understood that there was a curse forcing them to be that way, and now everyone's rallying around her, she's still mayor, and they're coming to her rescue. He had some reason to believe that they were all as bad as she was and were equally culpable in what happened to him and to his father. Which is why I think this was a wasted storyline -- if they hadn't gone so far as to have him destroying the whole town, he was the kind of villain who could have learned the full truth and changed his mind.

 

And I don't think anyone else ever learned why he was intent on destroying the town other than "magic bad!" Would they have been less likely to rush off to save Regina if they'd known that not only had she been the one to get out the failsafe because she was planning to use it, but that she'd been the one to set him off in the first place by what she'd done to him? Oh, who am I kidding? They'd still have hailed her as a hero and they wouldn't have been the least bit bothered by what she'd done.

[Jean]

 

Smaller stories are a good idea, but it isn't exactly a strong point with the writing on this show. S2 had this bad - several storylines were going on at once, and while only a select few got the spotlight, all the others got sidelined. Some of these were important, like Emma's relationship with her parents. This happened in 3B as well when more time was devoted to Zelena strutting around than Emma's home arc and the Missing Year. Some of the better story writing was in S1 and 3A, when the plots were more centralized. Again, multiple small storylines at once is a great idea, but the writers don't do well with it.

I don't call Emma's home arc a real story. She was clearly without a story and the home thing was just to set up their Back to the Future finale. No one had a story in 3B except for Woegina. 

 

What I mean by several plot lines is 2A. S1 was just a different beast. That probably comes closest. Emma and Snow had their princess trek through the woods. Charming was holding down the fort in Storybrook, playing leader and getting to bond with Henry. Woegina was crying and whining about her life as usual and Henry. Rumple was dealing with Belle. That's all completely separate from the "get Emma and Snow" home stuff even though they were working towards it in the background. That wasn't the focus of the other characters 100% of the time. In fact it didn't rev up until the last 2 or so episodes. The princess trek also didn't feel as long as Neverland because some episodes they were on for a minute or not on at all.

 

The other half seasons, each character gets small individual moments in their centrics but it's not a story or plot line. All of it was focused on one thing, Cora/Woegina, Zelena and Pan. I'm not saying 2A was great either, but at least it felt more balanced. It hasn't felt that way since 2x09.

 

If given the choice between crappy writing and story starring Woegina and guest stars vs crappy writing and story starring everyone, well I'm going to have to go with the latter as the lesser of 2 evils.

[KingOfHearts]

You can guarantee Woegina is going to be in the picture no matter what.

 

I didn't really find 2A all that balanced myself. You had fairybacks, Storybrooke and Enchanted Forest all going on at one time. Instead of dealing with the Storybrooke fallout, we had to give screentime to Enchanted Forest. When the Enchanted Forest needed time, to say, work on Emma's processing of the whole thing, we had to take the episode into Storybrooke and only get maybe a small clip at the end of EF. You had both those major storylines, then the fairy backs to fit in there. One storyline was always pushing away the other. A few of the episodes, like The Doctor and The Crocodile, that focused on fairybacks, put both worlds on hold. We didn't nearly the character development and payoff in 2A as we should have because of Team Princess, the fairybacks, and Storybrooke threats happening all at once. 2B and 3B were both much, much worse, though.

 

3A and S1 both only focused on two settings at a time. Both these sections in the show had more character development than anything 3B or S2 had to offer. S4 is squeezing in fairybacks, Frozen, and all the Storybrooke drama stuff at one time, which is what I worry about. Frozen is a much bigger headliner than Oz or Neverland, and we all know the writers will be milking it for all its worth. Throw in Woegina's Love Triangle of Doom, and it's going to be nuts.

 

 

I don't call Emma's home arc a real story. No one had a story in 3B except for Woegina.

 

I kind of consider it to be, because not only was it Emma, but Hook and Henry were also affected by it. There was also Zelena's story, Zelena + Dagger + Rumple, Snowing's pregnancy, Henry's belief, Hook's Captain Swan issues and the kiss curse, the Missing Year, and Neal's death going at once too.

Edited August 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I have to say, I enjoyed most of 3A more than I did with 2A, it had a much tighter focus, and Pan was a really fun villain, until the stupid relationship reveal. It also distributed screentime rather evenly between the characters, compared to season 2 and 3B. I didn't mind the tracking through the endless woods bit, but I generally enjoy the adventure bits (I didn't mind the Team Princess adventure stuff as well, but Nevengers were a much more dynamic group).

Edited August 21, 2014 by FurryFury

[Jean]

I kind of consider it to be, because not only was it Emma, but Hook and Henry were also affected by it. There was also Zelena's story, Zelena + Dagger + Rumple, Snowing's pregnancy, Henry's belief, Hook's Captain Swan issues and the kiss curse, the Missing Year, and Neal's death going at once too.

I consider those "moments" not stories. Henry was affected by Emma imitating a pop-up advertisement for NYC? He was clueless till the finale and had one line on it. It had no consequence on him. By the time he found out we were 30 minutes away from the cheesy home revelation. I bet if you string all the "home" clips together minus the finale, it becomes clearer. It's basically one line played on a loop.

Ok Neal's death was a story but one done and out in 1 episode.

Zelena had a story but it was in service of and part of Woegina's. It's not separate. A&E said it when talking about 3B. They said they came up with Wicked/Zelena arc because they had a question "what if someone was jealous of Woegina?" That's it. That's basically 3B summed in 7 words.

But ok if you consider all those stories in 3B then 3A had just as much going on. Belle in Storybrook, Ariel's story, Pan's story, Henry's belief, the dumb love triangle, Neal's adventure to get to Neverland and non-death, Wendy and brothers' story, Charming's poisoning, Snow's momma issues, Hook's romantic angst and the kiss revelation, and Rumple/Pan/dagger.

I liked 3A more than the others, mainly due to Robbie. I just don't see the great character development. Rumple and Hook probably fared the best. But anyway everything was promptly undone for 3B. Emo Hook might've been the only constant.

[KingOfHearts]

It's not the number of storylines that are the problem, but it's how the writers handle them that is hit or miss. The screentime on this show can be very unbalanced, and this goes for stories, character arcs and moments.

3B shoved Zelena and Outlaw Queen up to the front, at least to me. 3A was slow and uninteresting at times, but the character time was pretty even. I'm more of a fan of slower paced stuff than the action that was in S2 and 3B.

[Mathius]

I think one of his Lost Boys or spies suggested that one. They called it that so Greg/Tamara would take the bait.

John and Michael are almost definitely behind that name: the "home office" is a segment of the British government dealing with militant force against illegal aliens, in this case "illegal aliens" being magic and magical beings crossing over into the Land Without Magic. It's actually pretty clever, but Greg and Tamara saying it just ruins it.

Whereas the S1 finale as well as 3x11 worked not just because they were HUGE game-changers, and also were actually emotional, but because they were the climax of the season's (or half-season's) main plotline. They felt like they were ACTUALLY finishing a story, playing out it's consequences, giving real finality to things that had been brewing for the entire (half-)season.

Some of the better story writing was in S1 and 3A, when the plots were more centralized. Again, multiple small storylines at once is a great idea, but the writers don't do well with it.

3A and S1 both only focused on two settings at a time. Both these sections in the show had more character development than anything 3B or S2 had to offer.

QFT. This is why S1 and 3A are the show's strongest thusfar.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Mathius

[Jean]

Well I hate to point out the obvious but S1 and 3A are the only "seasons" that weren't pushing a full on poor poor St. Woegina The Biggest Victim In Existence story. Simplest explanation for me.  Coincidence?

[stealinghome]

I would also point out that 2B really only focused on one location (the trip to Manhattan lasted like three episodes). That didn't stop it from sucking hard--in fact, the Manhattan stuff was some of the best stuff of all S2.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I would also point out that 2B really only focused on one location (the trip to Manhattan lasted like three episodes). That didn't stop it from sucking hard--in fact, the Manhattan stuff was some of the best stuff of all S2.

There was also Hong Kong, London and Boston(?) airport, all in separate episodes. I would consider The Land Without Magic outside of Storybrooke to be the third location, because it was featured in 6 episodes. Not only because of its presence, but also because of the Home Office plot about the outside world coming in. 

 

3B was focused on just two settings - fairybacks and Storybrooke. I don't even think Woegina was the major problem with balancing, but Zelena. Zelena had plenty of stuff going on that had nothing to do with Regina. (Her backstory in Oz, her love affair with Rumple, her ingredient hunting, etc.) But when you toss Regina in there, it just makes it all the worse. 

 

It's Regina's very nature to chew the scenery and have a big presence. I don't think giving her less screen time harms her potential. Lana can play the smallest stuff to the balcony, which she sort of did in 3A. It's not even really Regina that's the problem, but the story stuff they give her and the excessive screen time.

 

It's not the number of locations, storylines, settings, character arcs or moments going on at once that's the problem - it's the writing that can't handle it. 2B and 3B's issues were pacing and screentime balancing. Woegina just so happens to be the poster child of a plethora of issues that she's not even relevant to, in addition to her very own.

Edited August 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

It's not the number of locations, storylines, settings, character arcs or moments going on at once that's the problem - it's the writing that can't handle it.

 

I agree with this. I do think, on some level, the show is trying to do too much. These guys have a lot of good ideas, but they zoom the story from idea to idea so fast that none of the ideas ever get fully realized. I think both Oz and Neverland had enough material that they could have each been their own season. Yes, they would have had to come up with ways of keeping the endless marching around the jungle in Neverland from getting boring, but throw magical obstacle after magical obstacle at them. Have them have to split up for whatever reason, have someone get taken by a magical creature, have the Echo Cave actually work in sowing discord amongst the troops. Maybe have them rescue Henry and then have to spend an episode or two hiding him from Pan on the way to the Jolly Roger to go home. I mean, it's Neverland, for crying out loud. Throw out any whackadoo plot complication you can think of ... if a place is run on belief, the only limit is the imagination.

 

This way, you can have the character moments we all seem to crave because the story's not running from A to B to C to D with no breathing room in between. The flashbacks can actually fill in the information on the new characters and their relationships so we understand how they all fit with each other in present day. We could have had the Hook/Bae stuff, the Hook/Tink stuff, the Bae/Tink stuff ... all the backstory that made Neverland Neverland. It would open the worlds up and make them feel more like real places than "Oh, it's Neverland? Well, we need some mermaids and Skull Rock, otherwise it could just be any other jungle."

[Writing Wrongs]

So I'm watching my S3 blu and I think I need to add Ariel to my list of crap episodes. Ariel's whole fairyback was kinda pointless, except for her being screwed over by Regina.

 

I hate more and more how bad their CGI is for this show. I just don't understand why they can't build practical sets for at least the castles. Other shows do. Hell, even The Quest looks better than this show! It really distracts me from the story. As boring as the jungle of Neverland got, at least it wasn't all CGI. I much prefer when they are in Storybrooke, which sucks because I really like medieval type stuff.

 

ETA: The ideas that we had on the old board about the Home Office being created by The Darlings to destroy magic because of The Shadow taking Bae were so much better than what A&E came up with.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Writing Wrongs

[KAOS Agent]

Don't ask how it happened but I was reading a TVline article from the beginning of last season and it contained this gem from Eddy talking about the Neverland arc:

 

 

KITSIS: Oh yeah. And there’s the way they all react differently to things. Obviously David hates Hook. Regina hates all of them. Snow resents Regina. They all have this baggage and this history that after two years we forgot we built up, but then when you watch Season 3 you see it all come out. [emphasis mine]

 

I'm sorry. You forgot that you built up the history and baggage between all of these characters? What the ever loving hell? I just can't with this. Can someone remind me why I watch the show? Seriously, this is a showrunner saying they forgot the thing that is the entire premise of their show. No wonder we're always so pissed about the lack of follow through or realistic character reactions, the writers really don't remember anything that's happened. 

Edited August 24, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

Don't ask how it happened but I was reading a TVline article from the beginning of last season and it contained this gem from Eddy talking about the Neverland arc:

 

 

I'm sorry. You forgot that you built up the history and baggage between all of these characters? What the ever loving hell? I just can't with this. Can someone remind me why I watch the show? Seriously, this is a showrunner saying they forgot the thing that is the entire premise of their show. No wonder we're always so pissed about the lack of follow through or realistic character reactions, the writers really don't remember anything that's happened. 

 

This is why I try not to read their interviews. They make me so angry.

[KingOfHearts]

Honestly, I didn't see much dissension in Neverland. Yes there was plenty of bickering, a love triangle and the Snowing fight, but it was nothing that got in the way of their journey. It's not like there was this big fallout (unless you call Regina joining Rumple a fallout) that tested their unity as a whole. Their problems just aren't as big as they made them out to be in that answer. Most of their arguments cleared themselves up after like three episodes, if even that.

 

"Snow resents Regina"

Eddy, you have that backwards.

Edited August 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

"Snow resents Regina".

Eddy, you have that backwards.

No, he had it right when he said it. Unfortunately, it has since then become untrue.

[KAOS Agent]

It's not like there was this big fallout (unless you call Regina joining Rumple a fallout) that tested their unity as a whole. Their problems just aren't as big as they made them out to be in that answer.

 

I think he was pretty much referring to the fights on the Jolly Roger as "all of it coming out", but that was resolved about five seconds after Emma jumped overboard and then they were done with it except for David's negative attitude towards Hook. It's always helpful to antagonize the one guy in your party that has knowledge of this strange place you've never been.  

Edited August 25, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

The Jolly Roger fights weren't real though. They were caused by a magic storm from the mermaid. Under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be fighting *that* much.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm back to my marathon, and if I ever want to work myself into a simmering rage, "Quite a Common Fairy" would do the trick. It's not so much that it's bad, but that it exemplifies everything that's wrong about this arc.

 

First, at this point we're three episodes into the Neverland arc, in which Captain Hook and a former Lost Boy are regular title credits characters, and we've had two fairybacks involving Regina. We never did find out what the backstory with Hook and Tink was, just the hint of him trying to persuade her to help after all they'd been through together.

 

That brings us to the Pixie Dust plot that we're still suffering from. It creates a relationship out of the blue without any work for it, it's creepy that Tink is basically encouraging Regina to fool around on her husband the king (that tends not to go well), it's a lame reason for Tink to hate Regina that makes Regina out to be a victim (yet again) since Tink's hatred of Regina for what happened to her is about as reasonable as Regina's hatred of Snow. And I really hate the implication that Robin Hood's life was ruined because he didn't meet Regina -- when he ended up having a wife he loved enough to face the Dark One for and had the world's most adorable son with her. If he'd met Regina, Roland wouldn't exist. Regina later claims to have no regrets because all her evil led her to Henry, so why should Robin regret not meeting her before Marian when that would mean he didn't have Roland? This whole thing is so very, very warped, and I'd love it if we learned that Tink really was a terrible fairy and she was totally wrong -- like maybe the pixie dust she stole was meant to be used on Marian, so instead of showing Regina's soulmate it showed Marian's soulmate to Regina. However, Tink's fairy outfit is so much better than the jellyfish outfits worn by the other fairies.

 

And then we have Neal taking one look at Roland and immediately thinking "Bait!" What a jerk. Not to mention the fact that he's now acting like he's always been in love with Emma and his problem was just that he didn't tell her, conveniently forgetting that just a day or so ago he was engaged to someone else and siding with her against Emma until she shot him.

[Curio]

First, at this point we're three episodes into the Neverland arc, in which Captain Hook and a former Lost Boy are regular title credits characters, and we've had two fairybacks involving Regina.

I'm 99% sure the writers would spontaneously combust if they were ever forced to not give Regina a fairyback for one season. Heck, even one half season.

 

Okay, I'm now curious. Has anyone gone through and officially counted the amount of flashback episodes each of the regular cast members have gotten so far? I am not even joking... someone please post this list for me. I'll even give you a digital Internet brownie.

[stealinghome]

Curio, I kept count through S2, but S3 was pretty balanced, so: I think at this point, Snowing and Regina are roughly tied with most fairybacks (Snowing dominated S1, Regina S2), Rumpel lags behind them, then it's a bunch of random-ass people.

[regularlyleaded]

Okay, I'm now curious. Has anyone gone through and officially counted the amount of flashback episodes each of the regular cast members have gotten so far?

Good question. You've piqued my curiosity.

For S3 this is what I recall off the top of my head:

 

3x01: No flashback (unless you count the 2 minute scene of Emma giving birth at the beginning...which I guess that counts....sort of).

3x02: Snowing + Regina (Regina wants to kill them, Snow finds her backbone, blah, blah, blah).

3x03: Regina + Tink (How do you solve a problem like Woegina? (I may have just heard that question in my head to the tune of The Sound of Music's "How do you solve a problem like Maria". Don't judge.))

3x04: Rumpel + Bae + Pan (useless fairyback IMO)

3x05: Hook (plus a bit of Pan)

3x06: Snow + Ariel AND (of course) Regina ('cause in this one, Regina is trying to kill Snow. "Oh, that's new", said no one)

3x07:  No flashback. Only sideways stories from Storybroke

3x08: Rumpel + Daddy Issues/Pan's origin story

3x09: Regina (*sigh*)

3x10: Snowing  (*sigh*^2)

3x11: Several short flashbacks for everyone. (All the main characters had 1-2 minute flashbacks scattered throughout the episode, IIRC)

3x12: No pre-curse flashbacks, just flash sideways-ish to the past year for the Enchanted Forest crowd.

3x13: Woegina (past year flashback of Woegina. She missed Henry, y'all, but she was very stoic about it...Bwahahahaha! Ya, that's a lie. There was crying. There was emoting. Everyone, pretend to be shocked)

3x14: Charming (past year flashback. Charmz was feeling like a failure, but that didn't put a downer on anything else. Snow is pregnant.)

3x15: Belle and Nealfire ("I am stupid, hear me roar!" is the title of this episode...in my mind...as is "Dead, Again: For reals this time! Woohoo!")

3x16: Zelena origin story

3x17: Hook + Ariel cameo

3x18: Cora + Eva+ Leopold flashback (another waste IMO)

3x19: Snowing (Oh, noes! How shall we save baby snowflake?! P.S. Here's half my heart, I wasn't using it.)

3x20: Zelena backstory (because we need to know as much as possible about someone who's going to die in 5...4...3...2...1)

3x21-3x22: Flashbacks are the present day story. Everyone appears, but Emma + Hook are the leads.

 

Overall, it looks like in terms of having the primary focus of the flashback, Snowing has had 4 (or really Snow because usually Charming is the cheerleader in the Snowing episodes). Regina has had 3 (though I feel like she should have 4 because she shared one with Snow, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I rewatched any of these), Rumpel has 2, and Hook has 2 flashback centrics (4 in total if you include the trip back in time with Emma for the finale, which I don't count as flashback so much as the 'A' story).

 

But I think if you count overall who has significant appearances in the flashbacks and not just "it was their centric" Regina leads the count in flashback appearances followed by Snow.

Edited August 26, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Curio]

Wow, thanks for that awesome analysis, regularlyleaded! I suppose I need to follow through and actually give you an Internet brownie now. :)
 
That list makes me sad for Emma and Charming. Even though Charming had a flashback centric to himself, the Rapunzel plot was pointless because they never mentioned her again. The only good thing to come from his flashback was the dream sequence with Emma in her ball gown and Charming teaching her how to dance.
 

3x20: Zelena backstory (because we need to know as much as possible about someone who's going to die in 5...4...3...2...1)

This is definitely why I prefer 3A to 3B. Zelena ultimately just seemed like a waste of story space. At least with Pan, he got to interact with Rumple, Bae, and Hook in the Neverland flashbacks and he liked to equally screw with all the Nevengers in present time. Zelena was so focused on her hatred of Regina (and I guess Rumple) and her flashbacks to Oz with the witches and Dorothy could have been completely cut from the show and we wouldn't have missed a beat. But no, apparently we had to know about why Zelena was jealous of Dorothy instead of getting a couple minutes of Emma in Tallahassee or even a freaking Belle (and I don't even like Belle!) flashback.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I agree that the Peter Pan backstory was handled better in 3A than Zelena in 3B. Pan had like 1.5 flashbacks, and the episode he shared with Rumpel/Bae wanted to be "about" Rumpel/Bae more than Pan, if that makes sense. Zelena had 2 episodes, which doesn't seem like much more (although the useless Eva/Cora/Leopold fairyback ate another space)--but the episode where Rumpel appeared was far more "about" Zelena than Rumpel. So at the end of the day, it felt like Pan really only got 1 fairyback, whereas if you factor in the parental story, Zelena got 3. Which is way too much for an 11-episode-character.