A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow didn't have a lot of the options that someone in the real-world might have had (the police, jail etc.), to deal with such a situation.  Her options came down pretty much to kill or be killed along with most if not all of her family and friends.

 

I agree 100%, killing Cora was really the only way out. The way she handled it just came out a little wonky. She kind of went crazy eyes, wasn't really listening to her husband, and didn't tell anyone about the candle. I'm sure Charming would have been glad to do it. To me, the writers made Snow the killer just for the "dark heart" twist to make Snow look like Regina. (Ugh.) The story was basically cornered for the twist that turned out to be a catalyst for the horribleness of 2B. It was the way it was played out that bothered me. If Snow wants to shoot someone with an arrow to save her family, that's fine. But they made Snow look like this vengeful person that was really out of character for her.

 

It's another example of twisting characters into pretzels to fit into their "twists", which basically assassinates their integrity as characters.

 

 

KingOfHearts, I want to believe that what you're saying is true--but my problem is, what you're saying and what the show keeps telling me are two different things.

 

I keep using logic instead of what the show actually gives. Bad habit of mine! :)

 

Once is the only show I know where logic is just headcanon.

Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Between Cora and Regina, they had hunted/tormented Snow for nearly 35 years.  Of course Snow was angry, and she wasn't completely, calmly deciding--but that in itself doesn't make killing Cora wrong.

 

I don't think even Snow having doubts makes it the wrong choice.  It was a big choice; think how many people second guess their decision about which car to buy, let alone ending someone's life.  Just because you're doubting yourself doesn't make it the wrong choice.

 

Honestly, the only iffy thing about killing Cora was using Regina as a weapon.  I can understand why they did, but it is the one time I've thought that Regina's anger at them was justified.  No one should have to be the way their mother died, even in a mother/daughter pairing like Regina and Cora.

 

If Regina had been angry about that and Snow had been feeling guilty about that, instead of Cora's death, it would've made more sense.  Focusing on the death itself was bizarre and had no real emotional authenticity for either character.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think even Snow having doubts makes it the wrong choice.

 

Just so everyone is clear, I don't think Snow killing Cora was a wrong choice.

 

If we're going by the "hero" morality the show is trying to conduct, I'm just saying it was closer to murder than a random kill because it was out of anger. My point is there was a difference between murdering Cora and putting a sword through a random guard's gut or killing someone on the opposite end of a war. It wasn't the act itself that was different, but rather the intent and the way it was executed. (No pun intended!)

 

When you think about it, Snow did Regina a favor. After Bleeding Through, Regina probably got closer to that conclusion.

Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Going with the "murder vs. killing" thing, I don't think Snow just killed Cora out of self-defense. She did it out of anger, too. She gave self-defense as her reason, which would have been perfectly valid, but Snow wanted to kill Cora out of revenge for killing her mother and making her family's lives miserable. I'm not saying it was wrong for her to kill Cora in self-defense (even Charming said Cora deserved to die), but I believe there was more to it for Snow than just saving everyone else. Her attitude and body language to me showed it was closer to hatred for Cora than love for others.

 

As angelwoody, the thing is - even if she was NOT angry, the fact is the Cora planned to murder them all (even more easily as the Dark One), and there was no other alternative.  

 

The fact that we have now learned in Season 3 that it is possible to enchant a heart so someone who has it can NOT control you, threw away Snow's other alternative - which was controlling Cora with the heart, to stop her from becoming the Dark One.  People argue the way Snow got Cora to die, by having Regina place the heart into Cora's body, was unethical.  Yes, but again, I cannot think of anything else Snow could have done in that circumstance to save everyone's life.

 

If Snow COULD have overpowered Cora and thrown her in jail, she would have done that, no matter how angry she was.  I strongly believe that based on what we have seen of Snow White over and over.  It was not the "easy way" - there was no other way.  Snow's conscience becomes irrelevant since there was no other way.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

As angelwoody, the thing is - even if she was NOT angry, the fact is the Cora planned to murder them all (even more easily as the Dark One), and there was no other alternative.

 

Actually, there was. It was stated in the show - she could have controlled Cora's heart to do the right thing, and let Rumple die.

 

They only removed the options for killing Cora to push their dark-snow-twist agenda. It was the writing that made it happen, not Snow. And no, I don't think what Snow did was wrong. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

Cora was literally in the middle of trying to kill all of them. Whether or not Snow hates her at that point is irrelevant. It's still self-defense. It's not like Cora was minding her own business sipping some margaritas on a Miami beach and Snow plotted to kill her. I can't even call it a plan when it took 2 minutes while Cora and Woegina was trying to bust down the door to murder them. It was a direct reaction to Cora and Woegina trying to kill them in the moment.  When it's  established self-defense, emotions, motivations etc. are irrrelevant.

 

Whatever I just can't understand how the writers keep harping on every imaginary slight against Woegina yet try to spritz a gallon of Febreeze all over Woegina's actions.  Like seriously, not eating female Joffrey's lasagna is somehow the crime of the century?  It's exactly like them claiming Regina never raped Graham because sex between them was never shown onscreen. Say what?? For heaven sakes, if you don't want her to do those things, don't write it and then put it onsceen. The audience isn't dumb with an IQ of a donkey. It's so crazy to me. What are they watching? Are they permanently high on Woegina butt crack or something? Someone explain this to me like I'm an American tourist in France. I've truly never seen this amount of obsessive fanfiction levels of delusional love for a character anywhere. I know back on TWOP Lana Lang seemed to be Mt. Everest for that measure but this surpasses that by a galaxy. As a result Woegina has become my most hated TV character ever. I will always root for the underdogs aka everyone else on the show over their Victim Sue.

 

 

she could have controlled Cora's heart to do with the right thing, and let Rumple die.

I don't believe that's the way they would've presented that. Then they would claim Snow was a mind rapist of Cora and needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Jean

[Camera One]

Actually, there was. It was stated in the show - she could have controlled Cora's heart to do with the right thing, and let Rumple die.

 

They only removed the options for killing Cora to push their dark-snow-twist agenda. It was the writing that made it happen, not Snow.

 

In Season 3, we saw that Regina could enchant her heart NOT to be controlled by someone else.  So Cora, who was smarter and more powerful, should have done the same thing (even if she didn't, Snow would have no way of knowing that).

 

I do agree with you that it was the writing that made it happen, not Snow.  There was no way Snow would agree to save Rumple (who we knew wasn't leaving the show), when she had refused to save even her own mother's life.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

Actually, there was. It was stated in the show - she could have controlled Cora's heart to do the right thing, and let Rumple die.

Which is bullshit on the show's part, because she couldn't have - Regina caught her with Cora's heart in her hands, and it would have taken her approximately 3 seconds to knock Snow out and take the heart from her. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

The fact that we have now learned in Season 3 that it is possible to enchant a heart so someone who has it can NOT control you, threw away Snow's other alternative - which was controlling Cora with the heart, to stop her from becoming the Dark One.  People argue the way Snow got Cora to die, by having Regina place the heart into Cora's body, was unethical.  Yes, but again, I cannot think of anything else Snow could have done in that circumstance to save everyone's life.

 

Sorry, I must have misread your post, Camera One.

 

 

Yes, but again, I cannot think of anything else Snow could have done in that circumstance to save everyone's life.

 

I honestly think something else in Rumple's store could have saved them, but Rumple chose to manipulate Snow with the candle. Rumple has to have all kinds of creative ways to kill people and save himself in a bind. But since it was quick and easy, Rumple chose the candle. The writers cornered the whole thing into only one possible outcome - The Dark Heart. It was all out of character for Snow to me.

 

Was there a reason Rumple couldn't heal himself with magic? It's not like Cora was stopping him with the dagger, because she needed him alive. I bet he didn't even need the candle to live - he just wanted to manipulate Snow to kill Cora. The whole plot point just stinks, really, because of the way the writers set the board of the before and after.

Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

It was a direct reaction to Cora and Woegina trying to kill them in the moment.  When it's  established self-defense, emotions, motivations etc. are irrrelevant.

 

Exactly.

 

This very debate is actually my main issue with the story. The writing is so slanted in favor of the villains that one of the heroes defending herself and her family is this hugely terrible thing. I buy Snow feeling guilty about it, because no matter whose life it was, she still took a human life. I imagine that takes some time to come to terms with. That said, it's been a while since I've watched the back half of season 2, but if I remember correctly, the story didn't allow for anyone to stand up for Snow's decision. There was no one telling her, "You did what you had to do." There was no one telling her, "What choice did you have?" There was no one telling her, "You saved our lives." If there was, please tell me where, because I've completely forgotten about it. :) What we did get was Regina taking potshots at her ("blackened sole"), as if the two of them were on some kind of even -- or more even -- footing.

 

Which is bullshit. Snow took Cora's life, yes, but Cora was going to take Snow's. Like was said above, it's not like Cora and Regina were at home baking cookies and Snow ambushed them. Cora and Regina were trying to kill Snow and her family. If Snow killing Cora puts her on child-murdering and village-massacring Regina's level, well, then no one might as well even bother fighting back if they're attacked to preserve their pure hearts or whatever.

 

It's a terrible message, is what I'm saying. By not allowing the other side of the story into the narrative, it results in some really f-ed up morality. The story is cheering the villains and blaming the heroes for having the audacity and gall to fight back. I thought this was supposed to be a fairy tale, y'know, where good defeats evil? How can good defeat evil if they're supposed to just roll over and take whatever evil is dishing out?

 

This is why I'm very worried about the upcoming Marian issue, by the way. Very, very worried. I hope to hell it doesn't get this treatment and Emma doesn't end up vilified for saving a woman's life.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Souris]

This is why I'm very worried about the upcoming Marian issue, by the way. Very, very worried. I hope to hell it doesn't get this treatment and Emma doesn't end up vilified for saving a woman's life.

 

I'm very worried about this myself. My threat to flip a table if this happens is still, well, on the table!

 

I hated that whole thing of the show villifying Snow for daring to kill the woman who was about to kill Snow's whole family. I found it offensive. Very effed up morality, indeed.

[KingOfHearts]

I would pay money for someone to ask Regina, with this Marian thing, "You killed countless people, and losing your weeklong boyfriend is your biggest dilemma?"

 

I'm surprised there hasn't been more Storybrooke citizen conspirators (even Dr. Whale) trying to kill Regina in her sleep.

Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Was there a reason Rumple couldn't heal himself with magic?

 

Apparently, he couldn't heal himself because it was Dreamshade, and no one could heal that (until Rumple came up with a cure in S3 after extensive study of his own poisoning apparently).

 

if I remember correctly, the story didn't allow for anyone to stand up for Snow's decision. There was no one telling her, "You did what you had to do." There was no one telling her, "What choice did you have?" There was no one telling her, "You saved our lives." If there was, please tell me where, because I've completely forgotten about it. :) What we did get was Regina taking potshots at her ("blackened sole"), as if the two of them were on some kind of even -- or more even -- footing.

 

Charming and Emma might have said something like that, but no more than once or twice.  You can tell the writers' bias in "Bleeding Heart", when neither Charming nor Emma spoke up at the séance even though Regina pointedly used the word murder multiple times to make Snow squirm.  Snow saved everyone by doing that, so a word in her defence would have been nice.

 

If they were balanced with that, every episode should have comments like, "Oh look, the clocktower, where you and your mother MURDERED Johanna", or "I'm trying to get through these police records, and hey, remember when you MURDERED Graham?"

Edited July 22, 2014 by Camera One

[angelwoody]

I would pay money for someone to ask Regina, with this Marian thing, "You killed countless people, and losing your weeklong boyfriend is your biggest dilemma?"

 

I'm surprised there hasn't been more Storybrooke citizen conspirators (even Dr. Whale) trying to kill Regina in her sleep.

That's because the writers don't allow anyone to actually express justified anger at Regina.  And when they do express a desire not to become insta-BFF's with her, it is framed as people being big, meanies to Regina (a la: I made lasagna and no one will even try it!).  

 

This show is a huge example of what happens when writers fall in love with their creation.  Suddenly, the villain is given all of the meat of every story and everything is told from her perspective, whether it makes sense in the world they've created or not.

[KingOfHearts]

It's not that I want everyone to harbor anger toward Regina forever, but I want someone to really ask her what her problem is. The writers are not doing any favors for Regina nor anyone else to just skip over from A to B and pretend like nothing happened. It's an insult to everyone - the cast, the victims, the audience, and even Regina herself. Even Disney movies deal with stuff. They really do.

 

It's not just Regina, but with other issues as well - Rumpbelle, Snowing with Emma, Emma's past, Neal, etc. It's an ongoing pattern of writing stuff, then not dealing with it. You can place a foundation for a house, but when you don't finish it, it's not a house - it's a joke. No one can take it seriously, and it doesn't hold any weight.

 

When the writers do have character moments,  they can be really good. It seems they're focusing on fantasy/adventure, which really isn't their strong point. Compare S1, which was almost entirely characters moments, to 3B, which was mostly candy. I have a really baaad feeling about Frozen.

Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm re-reading some promotional interviews published before 3B aired, since it's interesting to see the writers' promises and framing of the half-season and whether they came true.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/once-a-time-preview-emmas-672231

 

From article:

 

 

Interviewer: You flipped the show on its head with the winter finale, wiping away Emma's memories and inserting new ones. How much discussion was there about the cliffhanger that you left viewers with, showing Emma a year later not recognizing Captain Hook?

Edward Kitsis: We knew we were going to do that. Every year, usually you start getting ideas for one season, you kind of have things in your head. But by the end of season two, we started to see three. And then what we do is called a mini-camp in between seasons where the writers come for three weeks and we just plot it out. So for us, we wanted episode 11 to feel like a series finale, so people would say, what are they going to do next? 

Adam Horowitz: That's the question we want people to be asking -- how are they going to get out of this one?

 

"We started to see three"?  Three ideas?  what were those?

 

If they are trying to make people wonder how they will "get out of this one" or "where they're going next", then they are really hyping up anticipation, and you can't just have the first episode back reset everything in seemingly the easiest way possible.  Oh look, Storybrooke's back.  Everyone's back.  Continue on, everyone.

 

 

 

Kitsis: It's really funny because we wanted to tell one story this year, and really tell it. And the patience level of the Internet is every three episodes, it needs to be a new show and then if you do that, they tell you you're doing it too fast. So we decided that what we wanted to do was go up river and meet Peter Pan and tell the hell out of that story and end it in episode 11. Were we there an episode longer than people would have liked? It's a matter of opinion. For me personally, I loved Neverland. I think it was some of our best stuff. It was magical, it was character and that payoff just worked.

 

I don't think there's any expectation that every 3 episodes, it needs to be something new.  But maybe it points to why they keep stressing plot plot plot since they think the "internet" demands it?  But they must recognize their plots go in a circle even in a half-season and they lead nowhere, whether that was in Neverland (3A) or Storybrooke (2B and 3B).  Most shows don't even divide into half-seasons, and people are fine with that.  You can sort of see that they saw no problem with the Neverland arc, even saying it was some of their "best stuff".  I wonder what he meant by "It was character".  

 

 

 

Adam: We've got Rebecca Mader as the Wicked Witch, who is a completely different kind of villain and the kind of character were excited to unfurl on the audience.

 

In what way was she a "completely different kind of villain"? 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

There was no one telling her, "You did what you had to do." There was no one telling her, "What choice did you have?" There was no one telling her, "You saved our lives." If there was, please tell me where, because I've completely forgotten about it.

The diner scene in s2 finale. The stupid, stupid, stupid, beat your head to a bloody pulp against the wall, diner scene.  That was the one brief shining moment where Emma told Snow point blank "You did that to Cora because you had to." And the writing promptly smacked Emma down by having Snow reply "I did it because it was easy" and then every moron in that diner proceeded to railroad Emma by backing Snow's idiocy and cheering her idiotic supposition on.

 

The show treats having common sense and defending yourself from mortal peril brought upon you by psychopaths as morally reprehensible. Ya, that's so awesome....FU, show.

 

Everyone, tables at the ready? Aaaaand FLIP!

 

 

ETA: If there ever was a question I would want asked at SDCC for the showrunners it would be "Exactly what were these other 'harder' paths Snow could've taken when trying to save her family from Cora and Regina's murderous rampage? Please explain this to me. Explain as if I were a child."

Edited July 23, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Dani-Ellie]

Thank you. I block out the diner scene because it makes me bonkers for so very many reasons (minus the sweet bit with Emma trying to appeal to Hook).

[Jean]

 

but if I remember correctly, the story didn't allow for anyone to stand up for Snow's decision. There was no one telling her, "You did what you had to do."

 

Emma did at the end of S2 in the diner when Snow was trying to sacrifice their entire universe to save St. Woegina. All Emma got for her trouble was a big ass lecture by Snow how they have to do the right thing and not take the easy way out and OMG how can you live with yourself if St. Woegina's blood is on your hands, and do this one thing for your momma or some such crap. That was when Snow too went on my crap list.

 

 

I hope to hell it doesn't get this treatment and Emma doesn't end up vilified for saving a woman's life.

To be honest I don't care if Emma is villified for it. I'd bet A&E's whole supply of crack that she will be. People can line up in town ready to stone her and I'd be ok with it if she was like WTF, I don't give a damn that Woegina lost her boyfriend of 2 days.  What I don't want is for Emma to turn into Snow, the biggest Woegina cheerlearder to have ever lived. I swear I will give up this show, screw Robert's fine self, if I hear a repetition of "Woegina even though you were the biggest victim ever, you still love and feel so much more than anyone ever!" again. RIP Snow.

 

 

That's because the writers don't allow anyone to actually express justified anger at Regina

This. What happened to S1 when Emma, Rumpel, even Snow was allowed to snark back at Woegina? Now she's the only that gets to throw stones while everyone has to stay mute or kiss her ass. Even Rumpel got in on the game by proclaiming the child abuser as the bestest mom ever. Good gawd they acted like Woegina was so self-evolved and generous for saying that the Cora/Snow thing was complex because Cora killed Eva. Err dude you yourself tried to kill Snow and everyone else a million times over and was in on the plan with Cora. But oh no that didn't happen according to Adam and Eddy.  St. Woegina had too much heart and soul and felt so much pain and it's all Snow's fault.

[FabulousTater]

(minus the sweet bit with Emma trying to appeal to Hook).

Ya, that was one of the only few good moments. When you realized that neither Emma nor Hook thought any of these idiots were right, but it's what the "group think" came up with so...

Edited July 22, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Mari]

Like seriously, not eating female Joffrey's lasagna is somehow the crime of the century? 

Not a GoT fan (I gave up first season), but I love this sentence.  Unfortunately, our show runners don't realize they've written female Joffrey.  GoT at least realized what a little monster Joffrey was.

 

I would pay money for someone to ask Regina, with this Marian thing, "You killed countless people, and losing your weeklong boyfriend is your biggest dilemma?"

 

I'm surprised there hasn't been more Storybrooke citizen conspirators (even Dr. Whale) trying to kill Regina in her sleep.

If someone did say this, what do you think Regina's response would be?  I'm not sure she would even comprehend the question, and she'd then respond with a witty or cutting  non sequitur.

 

I would also enjoy an episode or two where a few background characters get together, run spell tests on the Charmings because they're so brainwashed, and plan Regina's downfall.

 

If the show wanted to make Robin palatable, he could be their inside man.

 

If they were balanced with that, every episode should have comments like, "Oh look, the clocktower, where you and your mother MURDERED Johanna", or "I'm trying to get through these police records, and hey, remember when you MURDERED Graham?"

I would enjoy this.  I would even enjoy this if I had to listen to Belle say it, and I prefer my Belle episodes on mute.  Could we not have one episode of this?  It could be the same episode where Belle starts giving back Rumple's stash of loot and trophies that she was previously selling to them.

[KAOS Agent]

I saw Adam reply to a tweet the other day where someone asked him when Marian was going to die. I liked his response to her and I have this fragile hope that since he's getting these tweets and replying to them that maybe, just maybe he is seeing how fucked up it all is. These kinds of questions/Regina fan expectations just demonstrate how messed up they've made the morality of the show. People are pushing for an innocent woman to die just because her being alive makes Regina unhappy. I also despair for our world when the default response to the other woman is that she must die. So an amicable separation and divorce is not even an option? Did these people go to the Rumpelstiltskin School for Wife Disposal? Is this the kind of fairy tale you'd want to tell your child? What message is he sending to young children? You can kill, rape, enslave, curse and terrorize people at will but as long as you cry prettily and feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone else for your actions people will root for you to win?

[Rumsy4]

 

I would also enjoy an episode or two where a few background characters get together, run spell tests on the Charmings because they're so brainwashed, and plan Regina's downfall.

 

We had Grumpy asking Snow why they were working with Regina back in the Enchanted Forest, but nothing otherwise. I think most of the rest of Storybrooke has already started avoiding the Charmings--that's why we never see any of them on screen for more than 5 seconds. 

[Camera One]

We had Grumpy asking Snow why they were working with Regina back in the Enchanted Forest, but nothing otherwise. I think most of the rest of Storybrooke has already started avoiding the Charmings--that's why we never see any of them on screen for more than 5 seconds.

 

Well, the writers made the Dwarves somehow attributed the peace in Storybrooke in 3A to the absence of Snow and Charming, not to the absence of Regina and Rumple.  

 

And to be fair, it was smart of Snow and Charming to keep Regina on their side and on a short leash in the Missing Year.  

 

I can just imagine the writers building a giant stone statue of Deity Regina on the studio backlot so they could worship when they need inspiration for plotlines.

[Shanna Marie]

Good gawd they acted like Woegina was so self-evolved and generous for saying that the Cora/Snow thing was complex because Cora killed Eva. Err dude you yourself tried to kill Snow and everyone else a million times over and was in on the plan with Cora.

Not to mention the fact that Regina herself pushed Cora through a mirror to Wonderland and then enchanted Hook's hook and sent him to Wonderland to rip Cora's heart out. Cora was only alive for Snow to kill because Cora turned the tables and coerced Hook into faking her death. So Regina was getting all high and mighty with Snow about something she tried to do herself, and the only difference is that Snow was successful (maybe because Snow did it herself, aside from returning Cora's heart, while Regina keeps failing in her killing because she outsources it). So it's bad for Snow to do it to protect and defend her family and the whole town, but it would have been okay for Regina to do it just because she was worried that her mother might interfere with her scheming? Okay.

 

I also don't entirely buy that it's somehow worse if you're mad at someone you kill in self defense or defense of others. How are you supposed to feel about someone who is threatening you or someone you love? You're bound to be angry at them for being a threat, and you're probably going to feel a great sense of relief when the threat is over. A good person is naturally going to have very mixed feelings about taking a life, but I challenge you to find a human being who wouldn't have taken some satisfaction at killing the person who'd murdered her mother, murdered the nurse who raised her and was threatening everyone she loved. I'm not even sure it would be possible to kill someone who really needed killing without some anger or hatred in your heart because if you need to kill them, you probably have good reason to be angry.

[ShadowFacts]

I think this far in, it would be too much of a reversal to have townspeople or the main characters start getting bucky with Regina.  There's been just too much missed opportunity for people to tell her to step off.  That's where I think the Knave could come in and sass her and inject some reality checks.  He did that very well in Wonderland and could do it here.  He could even voice what we are saying and be all like "what the hell, people, you're seriously walking on eggshells around this psycho?" 

[Camera One]

So Regina was getting all high and mighty with Snow about something she tried to do herself, and the only difference is that Snow was successful

 

Good point!  I was thinking who would know about that, and even Hook could have retorted with Regina shaming Snow for murdering Cora at the séance.  

 

I think this far in, it would be too much of a reversal to have townspeople or the main characters start getting bucky with Regina.

 

The good thing is, I don't think they've had Regina actually talking to most of the townspeople.  She's outwardly rude to Granny, for example, so I don't think Granny likes or trust her (Granny also doesn't hide her disdain for Rumple).

Edited July 23, 2014 by Camera One

[Mathius]

 

I don't think there's any expectation that every 3 episodes, it needs to be something new.  But maybe it points to why they keep stressing plot plot plot since they think the "internet" demands it?

 

Seeing as the internet was, in fact, full of demands and complaints during Season 1 like "They're treading water! Nothing is happening! Too much filler and boring character conversations! Move the plot forward and get closer to breaking the curse!", I would see why they would think the internet demands it.  

 

You can sort of see that they saw no problem with the Neverland arc, even saying it was some of their "best stuff".  I wonder what he meant by "It was character".  

 

There are many other people who agree that it was some of their best stuff. Similar to what I stated above, the internet is more diverse than just the circle of fans here on this forum, and there are just as many sites praising the Neverland arc as there are sites condeming it.  As Kitsis said, it really is a matter of opinion, and I actually completely agree with him in this case.

 

"It was character" meant it was full of character development, which is accurate. Unlike the following Zelena arc, the Neverland arc ensured every central character got a chance in the spotlight and received some sort of development, and left the arc changed from how they were when it started. Yes, it's true that some (Emma, Regina, Rumple, Hook) had more than others (Snow, Charming, Neal, Belle), but it was development all the same, and even side characters like Mulan and Tink had some. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Mathius

[stealinghome]

"It was character" meant it was full of character development, which is accurate. Unlike the following Zelena arc, the Neverland arc ensured every central character got a chance in the spotlight and received some sort of development, and left the arc changed from how they were when it started. Yes, it's true that some (Emma, Regina, Rumple, Hook) had more than others (Snow, Charming, Neal, Belle), but it was development all the same, and even side characters like Mulan and Tink had some. 

What character development did Snow, Charming, and Neal get in Neverland, though? I'm not being sarcastic--I'm genuinely curious as to what your thoughts are. From where I'm standing, none of them came out of the Neverland arc truly changed (imo, Snow wanting a baby doesn't count as character development), and things that should have had major repercussions for them--namely David being poisoned--didn't at all. I agree that Hook and Rumpel, and to a lesser extent Emma, got some development (and Regina if we ignore the horrendous No Regrets Regina stuff--though that's hard to do, it really makes me think her only step forward was in 3x11), but I don't even know that I think Belle got developed at all (though I liked her in the episode where she and Ariel fought the Darling Hipsters, heh).

[Camera One]

There are many other people who agree that it was some of their best stuff. Similar to what I stated above, the internet is more diverse than just the circle of fans here on this forum, and there are just as many sites praising the Neverland arc as there are sites condeming it.  As Kitsis said, it really is a matter of opinion, and I actually completely agree with him in this case.

 

Everything is a matter of opinion, though.  I don't doubt there are people out there who loved the Neverland arc and nothing above indicates that posters at this site "condemn" it.  However, I felt there were also major weaknesses in the Neverland arc in terms of pacing/momentum, agency on the part of the protagonists (or lackthereof), and unbalanced distribution of character moments for the different characters.  Like stealinghome, I also do not feel every character got their "chance in the spotlight", especially if their time in the so-called spotlight, received no follow-through.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

What character development did Snow, Charming, and Neal get in Neverland, though?

Neal got a little development in his relationship with Rumple. He, at the very least, got a tiny bit of bonding time with him, which is uber rare. The only major development Charming got was his blossoming bromance with Hook. Snow was just... post-curse-Mary-Maragaret-ing the whole way. Her little development peaked in Lost Girl with her talk with Emma... besides that, the only really interesting thing to come out of her was her infamous Echo Cave speech about replacing Emma.

 

Overall what Neverland did was make each character more comfortable with each other. I noticed a change in that they acted more like a family than the uneasy allies they were before. It united them, so to speak.

In retrospect, I really liked the slower pace. I just wish there was more time spent on crucial issues (like Charming family) than on pointless fairybacks. (Nasty Habits, Lost Girl and The New Neverland fairybacks.) The setting wasn't that exciting to me, either.

 

But I still thought 3A was worlds better than S2! 

Edited July 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I think 3A was great as a set-up half-season, but 3B failed to delivery in a satisfactory manner. For example, the disappearance and reappearance of Storybrooke in one episode was ridiculous! Snow never fulfilled her promise to Emma to make her feel less like an orphan. Walsh was used as needless angst for Captain Swan in 3B after Emma said "Good!" to Hook at the end of 3A, etc.. I really liked Regina best in 3.12, but 3B almost entirely did away all my good feelings towards her. They writers became too focussed on Zelena to deal with fulfilling all that they set up in 3A.

[KAOS Agent]

I think Neverland did set up a lot of character development, but it was all mostly completely dropped as per usual with this show. How can you go from Emma telling her mother that she still feels like an orphan and her mother telling her that it was her parents' job to change all that to a couple days later having Snow tell Emma that she's not what she wanted and she wants Baby Do Over? And then it got even worse when Snow was all ready to just ditch Emma again to stay with David in Neverland. That was some serious emotional shit Emma should have been dealing with and it required a conversation with Snow about it. Did that ever happen? No, it did not. That's where I fault the writers when they claim great character moments. Because I think they take credit for having moments, but fail to see that there needs to be fallout from these moments. Where's the reaction?

 

If I compare the Neverland arc to the Zelena arc, I'd take Neverland every day of the week and twice on Sunday because yes, at least the characters were interacting. But as I said above, I get so frustrated with Neverland because they set up a bunch of stuff and then never dealt with it and at this point, it's too late. I was also very disappointed with Neverland because of the lack of Neverbacks. How come we got the Enchanted Forest Pied Piper tries to lure Bae instead of Bae's actual time as a Lost Boy? How come we never saw the Darling Hipsters interact with Pan? What exactly was Hook doing for Pan on Neverland? How/Why was Tink in Neverland and what did she do there? How come we never saw Emma lost girl flashbacks and instead got Regina v Snowing part 173403405? Even though I didn't hate the arc, I was extremely annoyed because they have all of these characters that fit into the Neverland mythology and didn't use Neverland. 

[ParadoxLost]

What character development did Snow, Charming, and Neal get in Neverland, though? I'm not being sarcastic--I'm genuinely curious as to what your thoughts are. From where I'm standing, none of them came out of the Neverland arc truly changed (imo, Snow wanting a baby doesn't count as character development), and things that should have had major repercussions for them--namely David being poisoned--didn't at all. I agree that Hook and Rumpel, and to a lesser extent Emma, got some development (and Regina if we ignore the horrendous No Regrets Regina stuff--though that's hard to do, it really makes me think her only step forward was in 3x11), but I don't even know that I think Belle got developed at all (though I liked her in the episode where she and Ariel fought the Darling Hipsters, heh).

 

The most frustrating thing about Neverland was that they scratched the surface of character development and that made the abandonment of it doubly frustrating.

 

I have never been as annoyed with this show as when they went into the cave of truths that killed some of Hook's crew and then made it lame.  The missed opportunity on that one is criminal.

 

@KAOS Agent is right.  Not exploiting the story of Peter Pan in a Neverland arc was a big problem that detracted from the arc. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[kili]

How can you go from Emma telling her mother that she still feels like an orphan and her mother telling her that it was her parents' job to change all that to a couple days later having Snow tell Emma that she's not what she wanted and she wants Baby Do Over?

 

I wonder if that's when Ginny/Josh announced the pregnancy? Perhaps they scrambled to set up the pins to for the baby story and dropped the ball on finishing the "Let's Make Emma Feel Loved" story.  If they could have allotted more time to the Charmings (and why not) they might have done both.

 

Anyway, it was a rather 180 degree turn on that one Mary Margaret.

[Dani-Ellie]

If they could have allotted more time to the Charmings (and why not) they might have done both.

 

They totally could have, they just chose not to.

 

I mean, look, I get that real life happens, but one would think TV writers would be able to adapt to real life changes better than this. So, okay, write the Echo Cave. Great, please write the Echo Cave, because it's a real issue that makes sense in the progression of the Charming family's issues while also setting the stage for Snow's pregnancy in response to real-life circumstances. The only thing is, I don't think the Echo Cave should have been the plot setup check-box it played out as.

 

They needed to freakin' deal with it. Write the conversations that need to happen in the wake of the Echo Cave. Write Snow talking to Emma afterward, make Emma part of the Charmings' thought processes re: Neverland. Have Emma bring up the fact that she can't exactly not feel like an orphan if her parents stay in a realm she can't visit. Borrow a minute here from the Neal/Hook/Emma stuff and a minute there from the Rumple/Regina stuff and deal with it.

 

Either that or don't write the Echo Cave and come up with another way of introducing the idea of a Snowing baby instead. If they had no desire to actually deal with the Charming family, maybe they could have come up with another way that didn't create as many problems in the first place. It would mean a shuffling of story priorities, sure, but I don't think real life is an excuse to drop story threads that were previously set up and then just continue on as if they never happened to the extent that these have been.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

You know what they could also have done with the pregnancy?  A non planned one!  Stuff like this happens every day.  You don't voice that you want a baby do-over, you have a surprise pregnancy, you're happy about it and you can even discuss it with your grown ass daughter without being all we're so proud of the woman you are, you're capable and blah blah blah  BUT  ...I understand where MM is coming from, but seriously, your child just got done telling you how she still feels like an orphan!

 

GAH!

[ParadoxLost]

But, yes, I'd've been someone wondering what, exactly, did Regina put in whatever she and Snow were drinking in Neverland, because that cosy relationship had to be a spell--because I'm fine with the idea of a Regina redemption story, I just don't understand how actual change can happen if the character is still completely fine with her genocidal past.

 

If I accept the Disney Princess version of Snow that has cartoon birds flying around her head, I can accept understand Snow letting the crimes against her go.

 

It's the innocent bystanders that Regina killed that are the sticking point for me.  If Snow's heart has a black spot over killing Cora, I just don't get how she could be friendly with Regina when she was killing innocent villagers for the crime of protecting Snow's location.  Even if Regina was prostrate with guilt, I'd have a problem with Snow being friendly because she should show some respect to those that were executed to protect her.  Why haven't they tossed Regina's ass in jail for her crimes?

 

If I were a subject of the Charmings. I'd be forming a democracy that could get justice for dead friends and family, the years stolen in a nearly three decade version of Groundhog's day, and I'd let the people who had their hearts removed from their chest to do Evil Queen's bidding decide the punishment.  I'd find a medium who could talk to Graham and let him give his two cents on the topic.

[Camera One]

They needed to freakin' deal with it. Write the conversations that need to happen in the wake of the Echo Cave. Write Snow talking to Emma afterward, make Emma part of the Charmings' thought processes re: Neverland. Have Emma bring up the fact that she can't exactly not feel like an orphan if her parents stay in a realm she can't visit. Borrow a minute here from the Neal/Hook/Emma stuff and a minute there from the Rumple/Regina stuff and deal with it.

 

Either that or don't write the Echo Cave and come up with another way of introducing the idea of a Snowing baby instead. If they had no desire to actually deal with the Charming family, maybe they could have come up with another way that didn't create as many problems in the first place. It would mean a shuffling of story priorities, sure, but I don't think real life is an excuse to drop story threads that were previously set up and then just continue on as if they never happened to the extent that these have been.

 

Well said.  I think Emma, Snow and Charming should have gone to the Dark Hollow together (maybe with Neal if he needs to lead the way), not Emma, Neal and Hook for ultimately pointless triangle shenanigans.   That would have given a chance to deal with the Echo Cave revelations and come up with a plan for the Dreamshade debacle.  I think Emma would tell them to stay, and she will come back to find them.  Or maybe Neal could volunteer to stay since he would know where all the good hideouts are, to get Charming settled.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

I think Emma, Snow and Charming should have gone to the Dark Hollow together (maybe with Neal if he needs to lead the way), not Emma, Neal and Hook for ultimately pointless triangle shenanigans.   That would have given a chance to deal with the Echo Cave revelations and come up with a plan for the Dreamshade debacle.

 

I think this would have worked out, but not until after Snow & David had dealt with their issues about the Dreamshade lies first. Emma and Neal shouldn't be a part in that fight at all. That was that couple's issue to work through. Once they made their plans, then they tell Emma (on-screen) and have a discussion about it. Having Emma just be like, so you're seriously staying here? And doing it with little reaction as to how this affects her was a bad way to go because of course, it was directly contrary to what Snow promised in "Lost Girl". There should have been some emotion. That said, everyone knew we weren't going to get Snowing: The Neverland Years, so I think the writers just skipped over any drama without realizing that it assassinated Snow's character to just be so uncaring about it.

 

I also would have trouble with all of the Charmings going on what was likely a suicide mission. If they all died, Henry would lose that entire side of his family. If Hook dies, no big deal. Neal dies, a slightly larger issue, and Emma dying would be a massive issue but she was going anyway, so what can you do? The triangle stuff was lame, yes, but I also think the right people went to Dark Hollow.

 

ETA: I forgot about the "You're just like your father" comment from Snow to Emma after Echo Caves. Of all the things they could have had Snow talk to Emma about, that was what we got. So Snow just told Emma that she's not enough and wants a new baby, but Emma's understanding about David not wanting to distract from Save Henry upsets Snow enough to get snippy at the daughter she just hurt. Nice.

Edited July 23, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Dani-Ellie]

So Snow just told Emma that she's not enough and wants a new baby, but Emma's understanding about David not wanting to distract from Save Henry upsets Snow enough to get snippy at the daughter she just hurt. Nice.

 

Don't even get me started! I get that Snow was hurt and emotionally reeling from Charming's secret, but did she ever maybe stop to think that Emma could possibly be hurt and emotionally reeling from the secrets she heard? And that maybe some compassion was in order and throwing supposedly inherited family traits in Emma's face might just be a tad insensitive considering that up until a couple months prior, as far as Emma was concerned, she had no family to inherit things from?

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

I got up to "The Queen is Dead" in my rewatch, and wow, but the Woegina Villain Sue is off the charts. As I recall, that was a point when I may have stopped watching live for a while and only picked up episodes later OnDemand because it was shark-jumping territory for me. The conversation between Snow (and I think this is the first episode where she started that "Here I'm Mary Margaret" routine) and Regina in which Regina whines about not being forgiven just encapsulates how crazily skewed the writing in this show is.

 

For starters, it's rich for Regina to whine about not being forgiven when she isn't exactly the most forgiving person. How many times has Snow apologized for what happened to Daniel? And yet Regina refused to accept her apologies and continued trying to kill and torment her. Then there's the fact that if she had any self-awareness at all, she wouldn't even be expecting forgiveness, at least not so soon. Her crimes were so massive that she can hardly expect her victims who've had loved ones killed, who've been persecuted and who have just come out of 28 years in a Groundhog Day existence as her human puppets to just weeks later be all "Hey, no big deal, it's okay." Not to mention, she's expecting/demanding forgiveness when she has yet to apologize and acknowledge that she was wrong -- if she doesn't think she was wrong, why does she think she needs forgiveness? But if she's not apologizing, then what reason do the others have to want to be anywhere near her? And I don't think she begins to understand how forgiveness works. It's not something you can expect or demand. It's a gift. It also has more to do with the other person's heart/soul than with you. Forgiveness means the other people have chosen not to continue to poison themselves by hating you. It doesn't mean they have to welcome you into their circle of friends and be best buddies with you. The fact that her victims haven't turned the tables on her and aren't persecuting her or even trying to bring her to some kind of justice is actually a pretty good sign that they've forgiven her at least partially.

 

And then there's the scene in which she learns that Cora murdered Snow's mother and then emotionally tortured a grieving child by trying to force her to go dark, making her feel like she was at fault for her mother's death because she didn't use the avenue she had available to save her. Then she sees Cora murder Johanna in spite of Snow giving in. And yet Regina still acts all self-righteous about Snow killing Cora. It's okay for Regina to try to wipe out an entire kingdom over Snow sharing a secret, but it's wrong for Snow to kill the person who actually murdered her mother and her nurse and who is an immediate threat? I know we were supposed to be all worried for Snow in that scene at Johanna's grave when she decided to kill Cora, but I was shouting at the TV, "You go, girl!" To me, the way that speech was written, she wasn't so much angry or wanting revenge as she was finally wising up and realizing that showing mercy to people who don't deserve it only gets more innocent people killed, and she was finally going to do something about it to keep Cora from continuing to wreak havoc.

 

Argh, this show. Sometimes it makes Game of Thrones look like a Sunday school lesson when it comes to morality. With Regina, they seem to want it both ways. They want her treated like a good guy and a hero, and they want to show that the heroes are as bad as she is, but then they also want to be able to use her like a villain. I wish they'd at least kept her as an antagonist a while longer instead of flip-flopping -- if, post-curse, she was still trying to subtly undermine Snow and Emma while having to put on a nice act so she didn't totally alienate Henry. Then she might not have been the Big Bad of each storyline, but it could have been like in season one when she was acting nice on the surface while acting behind the scenes to try to maintain control. Her going straight to "I'm good now!" and realizing that she was turning into Cora and letting go of Daniel, followed by her "no, wait, evil is better" when Cora showed up, to "I'm a hero!" when she counteracted her own evil is just a big mess.

[Camera One]

Don't even get me started! I get that Snow was hurt and emotionally reeling from Charming's secret, but did she ever maybe stop to think that Emma could possibly be hurt and emotionally reeling from the secrets she heard?

 

The thing is they never had Emma show any reaction to what Snow said in the Echo cave.  Emma continued to seek out Snow to talk to her.  Basically, it was written like Emma didn't even hear Snow's confession.  This is a blatant lack of planning to me, like the writers who wrote the next few episodes didn't watch the Echo Cave scene.

 

And then there's the scene in which she learns that Cora murdered Snow's mother and then emotionally tortured a grieving child by trying to force her to go dark, making her feel like she was at fault for her mother's death because she didn't use the avenue she had available to save her. Then she sees Cora murder Johanna in spite of Snow giving in. And yet Regina still acts all self-righteous about Snow killing Cora.

 

This is exactly when Regina *should* have come to some epiphany about Cora.  But she didn't, and continued to blame.  And even in Season 3's "Bleeding Through", Regina was still very unwilling to blame Cora, despite everything that has happened and all the mercy that she was been shown by Snow and her family.  It really is sickening and makes you wonder how/why we're supposed to root for this woman.

[Dani-Ellie]

The thing is they never had Emma show any reaction to what Snow said in the Echo cave.  Emma continued to seek out Snow to talk to her.  Basically, it was written like Emma didn't even hear Snow's confession.  This is a blatant lack of planning to me, like the writers who wrote the next few episodes didn't watch the Echo Cave scene.

 

Absolutely. And it kills me because Jen played the moment of Snow's confession as hurt. Emma dropped her eyes and when the camera panned away, she was still looking down. So the last impression we have of Emma hearing Snow's confession is she was so hurt and saddened by it that she couldn't even look at Snow, and then the next episode, for Emma, it's like it never happened. WTF, show? Because I gotta tell ya, I know my mom loves me and would lay her life down for mine, but if she ever said what Snow said in front of Emma in front of me, I'd be devastated. Emma doesn't have the luxury of unconditional love, so how the hell else is she supposed to feel after that?

 

The inattention to the consequences of the plot points drive me batty. For an emotionally satisfying story, it's not enough for me to just hit a check mark and be done with it, especially when the check mark the writers come up with are freakin' emotional Tazmanian Devils. They're emotional tornadoes that whip through, run roughshod over everyone, and whip right back out again, and no attention is focused on the cleanup and restoration period. It's maddening.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mathius]

What character development did Snow, Charming, and Neal get in Neverland, though? I'm not being sarcastic--I'm genuinely curious as to what your thoughts are. From where I'm standing, none of them came out of the Neverland arc truly changed (imo, Snow wanting a baby doesn't count as character development), and things that should have had major repercussions for them--namely David being poisoned--didn't at all. I agree that Hook and Rumpel, and to a lesser extent Emma, got some development (and Regina if we ignore the horrendous No Regrets Regina stuff--though that's hard to do, it really makes me think her only step forward was in 3x11), but I don't even know that I think Belle got developed at all (though I liked her in the episode where she and Ariel fought the Darling Hipsters, heh).

Snow wanting a baby alone isn't character development, but being able to admit it and actually pursue it is. For so long she'd been rather cloying toward Emma and trying to build an ideal mother-child relationship that just wasn't ever going to happen. For her to finally admit to herself and to everyone else the honest truth (that her relationship with Emma, while special, isn't what she wanted when she first had Emma as a baby) and decided upon pursuing it...that was a step forward.

Charming got development because he temporarily regressed in a believable way. In Neverland, a strength of his character as Charming: that he is willing to protect his family and do good at any cost, actually gave way to him falling back into one of his weaknesses as David Nolan: not being open and honest with Snow. By the end of Season 2, Charming had become too perfect. He needed this reminder that he was still fallible, so as to better monitor his own behavior in the future. (Plus, he formed a bromance with Hook, who he just plain hated in Season 2. That counts, right?)

For Neal, the most obvious development is his reconciliation with his father. Even if Rumple helped save Henry, Neal had every right and reason to still not forgive him, and we know how long he's carried a grudge. But he chose forgiveness at last instead of perpetuating a cycle. The other development concerns Emma. In Echo Cave, he was finally, literally faced with all the pain he'd caused her, and his efforts to make it up to her afterward (though usually misguided) were sincere. Contrast to his smug, brush-it-off douchiness in Season 2.

That episode with Ariel and the Darling Hipsters was what I meant by her development. Never said it was much, in fact it was one of the tiniest developments any character made, but it was something.

Also, I liked No Regrets Regina. It was consistent with what we've seen of her: she regrets her actions when she's focused on how they've cost her things like in her talk with Tink, which is why the tree could grab her to start with, but those regrets all vanish whenever she fixates on what her actions GOT her. It's total selfishness, and at least in 3A she was open about it.

However, I felt there were also major weaknesses in the Neverland arc in terms of pacing/momentum, agency on the part of the protagonists (or lackthereof), and unbalanced distribution of character moments for the different characters.

OK, you're going to have to explain this one to me. How did the protagonists lack agency? Pan didn't set that many challenges against them to react to on his own, they were mostly reacting to their own issues that he played on. And once they overcame those issues, the entire rescue mission of Henry in "Dark Hollow", "Think Lovely Thoughts" and "Save Henry" consisted of actions they took. The following two episodes in Storybrooke relied on them being almost purely reactionary, yes, but the actual story in Neverland did not.

Overall what Neverland did was make each character more comfortable with each other. I noticed a change in that they acted more like a family than the uneasy allies they were before. It united them, so to speak.

Yes, that is the main development everyone shared in. You are correct.

In retrospect, I really liked the slower pace. I just wish there was more time spent on crucial issues (like Charming family) than on pointless fairybacks. (Nasty Habits, Lost Girl and The New Neverland fairybacks.) The setting wasn't that exciting to me, either.

I liked the pace too, and I agree about the fairybacks (except Nasty Habits...it may have been pointless in the grand scheme of things but it provided necessary foreshadowing to Pan's true identity, plus Robbie Kay and Robert Carlyle were just awesome in it). But I feel people complaining about the setting are missing the point: it had to be a rather boring, claustrophobic place because that's the kind of place where the characters have limited options to do anything but face each other and their own issues, which was desperately needed following Season 2.

I think 3A was great as a set-up half-season, but 3B failed to delivery in a satisfactory manner.

DING DING DING! We have a winner! The biggest problem with 3A was nothing that was actually IN 3A itself. It was that most of the developments it made for the characters were not followed through with in 3B, which they needed to be in order to make the season more cohesive. Off the top of my head, Hook is literally the only one I feel was given a good, natural continuation of his 3A development. Emma? The leadership role she grew into was totally discarded. Snow? Her actual feelings on having a new baby were sidelined and the baby was made a plot device. Charming? Had no further development outside of "The Tower", then he stagnated again. Neal? Dead. Belle? Nothing. Rumple? Made a believable and compelling regression only toward the very end, spending time before that just being there. Regina? Need we go into that?

How can you go from Emma telling her mother that she still feels like an orphan and her mother telling her that it was her parents' job to change all that to a couple days later having Snow tell Emma that she's not what she wanted and she wants Baby Do Over? And then it got even worse when Snow was all ready to just ditch Emma again to stay with David in Neverland. That was some serious emotional shit Emma should have been dealing with and it required a conversation with Snow about it. Did that ever happen? No, it did not.

Emma had been pushing her mother away again and again. She never truly accepted her as a mother until the Season 3 finale (disregarding that time they all thought they were about to die in the Season 2 finale.) For Emma to complain to Snow about Snow finally accepting that Emma may never return her familial affections would be the height of hypocrisy, so no, I don't think a conversation was required at all. Emma was dealing with that emotional shit, but she was dealing with it on her own (and a little with Hook) in accordance to how her character still was at the time.

There seems to be an Emma-bias when it comes to this issue. Yes, Snow hurt her emotionally and didn't seem sensitive about it after the fact, but Emma has been doing that to Snow for a long time now. Snow went back on what she said in "Lost Girl"? Emma went back on what she said in "Lady of the Lake", still blaming her parents for abandoning her and refusing to connect with them as a daughter because of that pain she stews in. This is a two-way street here.

I was also very disappointed with Neverland because of the lack of Neverbacks.

The present setting was already Neverland, and as seen above, many people didn't like that setting anyway and considered it boring. To give it even more screen time in an episode would have been unwise.

Not exploiting the story of Peter Pan in a Neverland arc was a big problem that detracted from the arc.

This is funny, because I see many people complaining that this show is ignoring its own core cast in favor of playing with new "toys" like Zelena/Oz and the cast of Frozen. But evidently, if the core cast receives focus at the expense of new "toys" (the cast of Peter Pan), that's also bad.

For all of their faults, I can't help but feel that Adam and Eddy are in a catch 22, as nothing they do is guaranteed to please everyone. As I said before, Season 1 may be looked on as the best now, but complaints of bad writing and such were everywhere back when it was actually airing. This factor never changes no matter how much the show does.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Mathius

[Mari]

Also, I liked No Regrets Regina. It was consistent with what we've seen of her: she regrets her actions when she's focused on how they've cost her things like in her talk with Tink, which is why the tree could grab her to start with, but those regrets all vanish whenever she fixates on what her actions GOT her. It's total selfishness, and at least in 3A she was open about it.

. . .

In retrospect, I really liked the slower pace. I just wish there was more time spent on crucial issues (like Charming family) than on pointless fairybacks. (Nasty Habits, Lost Girl and The New Neverland fairybacks.) The setting wasn't that exciting to me, either.

DING DING DING! We have a winner! The biggest problem with 3A was nothing that was actually IN 3A itself. It was that most of the developments it made for the characters were not followed through with in 3B, which they needed to be in order to make the season more cohesive. Off the top of my head, Hook is literally the only one I feel was given a good, natural continuation of his 3A development. Emma? The leadership role she grew into was totally discarded. Snow? Her actual feelings on having a new baby were sidelined and the baby was made a plot device. Charming? Had no further development outside of "The Tower", then he stagnated again. Neal? Dead. Belle? Nothing. Rumple? Made a believable and compelling regression only toward the very end, spending time before that just being there. Regina? Need we go into that?

For all of their faults, I can't help but feel that Adam and Eddy are in a catch 22, as nothing they do is guaranteed to please everyone. As I said before, Season 1 may be looked on as the best now, but complaints of bad writing and such were everywhere back when it was actually airing. This factor never changes no matter how much the show does.

I'm another one that didn't mind big chunks of Neverland.  I didn't even so much mind the repeated potted plant walking.  For me, the writing becomes an issue in the follow-up.  They have really exciting or interesting moments, but don't deal with the ramifications of those moments. 

 

For example, the "No Regrets Regina" might have been in character for season 1 and parts of season 2, but it completely wiped away the character development that she had had--and Regina had some great character development in 3A.  In one brief scene, it made all the regret she was exhibiting earlier in 3A, and parts of 2, as completely an illusion.  Then, the show dropped it.  Regina being a completely self-obsessed sociopath who should never be trusted because she'll be fine with doing anything to anybody--including Henry, apparently, because she feels no regret for any of it--as long as she gets what she wants?  It was never addressed at all.  It wasn't even mentioned.  They made one of the characters [insert Real World Evil Dictator], made her happy about it, and then never addressed it again.  By the time we got to the end of season . . . well, it's best not to talk about that.

 

Snow acknowledging her feelings about Emma was character development.  But then it was never addressed.  Snow had very little interaction with Emma, and it was dropped--until the end of season 3, where it was all Emma's fault.   It started out as interested writing, but was not good because there was no follow-through.

 

They're not going to please everyone.  That's impossible.  But, personally?  The show would greatly improve greatly if the characters didn't feel like they were reset or swapped out with nearly-identical versions of themselves, whenever the writers didn't want a zippy moment.

 

3A by itself wasn't bad writing.  But it was frustrating, because when there was no follow through for nearly anything they set up?  It made the whole thing pointless.  I could just watch the trip to Neverland, one or two episodes in the middle, and the end. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Mari

[stealinghome]

I actually didn't mind the Neverland setting all that much. I mean, yeah, it looked pretty fake by the end, but whatever. The potential benefits to the "bottle" nature of the half-season outweighed the negatives of being there, for me (though I am, I have to confess, heartily glad that we returned to Storybrooke and would have welcomed it an episode or so sooner).

 

Snow wanting a baby alone isn't character development, but being able to admit it and actually pursue it is.... Charming got development because he temporarily regressed in a believable way. In Neverland, a strength of his character as Charming: that he is willing to protect his family and do good at any cost, actually gave way to him falling back into one of his weaknesses as David Nolan: not being open and honest with Snow. By the end of Season 2, Charming had become too perfect. He needed this reminder that he was still fallible, so as to better monitor his own behavior in the future.

Okay, I will agree somewhat on Snow (though I would say the swerve from "it's my job to make you not feel like an orphan!" to "peace out Emma, have a good life!" takes away from the idea that Snow was developed for me), but I disagree with Charming. To me, regression and then bringing a character back to where they were and not using it to push them forward anywhere else isn't character growth. It's just a character having a moment of stupidity before they go right back to being who they were. And I mean, I love Charming, but I feel like his whole poisoning debacle didn't change him at all. Neverland caused exactly zero growth for him. Doesn't 'The Tower' prove he didn't learn a damn thing about keeping secrets from Snow? Does he really see himself as more fallible now? The respect he developed for Hook is closer to growth, but I still don't know that I would classify it as growth per se, because it seemed to me to be more about Hook proving himself than David looking at his preconceptions and maybe realizing that he'd been a bit judgy (but this is also colored by my perception that imo, he had every right to be judgy about Hook for a long time. It's not like Hook showed up in Storybrooke and was a Boy Scout from Day One and Charming was still an ass because he was convinced that Hook was bad. Hook earned David's disdain and mistrust, so he therefore had to earn his respect and trust).

 

And the same goes for Belle. Belle having a moment of self-doubt, but then overcoming it and regaining the feeling that she's an equal partner for Rumpel, isn't character growth, imo, because it hasn't propelled her to any new insights or to any new stops in her personal journey. She had a moment of doubt, but it really hasn't changed her.

 

I guess Neal did get developed a little, though frankly, I've already forgotten about him. Though he had already kind of forgiven Rumpel in 'Miller's Daughter.' I don't know, the whole Neal/Rumpel relationship was so poorly written.

 

DING DING DING! We have a winner! The biggest problem with 3A was nothing that was actually IN 3A itself. It was that most of the developments it made for the characters were not followed through with in 3B, which they needed to be in order to make the season more cohesive.

I do and don't agree with this. Like, yes, I think 3B was worse than 3A and that a lot of the 3A storylines would seem better if 3B had followed through on them more--but you shouldn't need later episodes to retroactively justify earlier episodes. That's like when "Agents of SHIELD" tried to tell discontent fans--no joke--that the last 5-6 hours of the season were SO GOOD it would make up for the audience sitting through the 18 pretty bad hours that preceded them. (And I was like "uh, NO?") Like, yes, earlier episodes should seem richer in light of later episodes, but the earlier episodes' stories need to be able to stand on their own. And I just find that generally speaking, the Charmings' stories in Neverland don't really.

 

There seems to be an Emma-bias when it comes to this issue. Yes, Snow hurt her emotionally and didn't seem sensitive about it after the fact, but Emma has been doing that to Snow for a long time now. Snow went back on what she said in "Lost Girl"? Emma went back on what she said in "Lady of the Lake", still blaming her parents for abandoning her and refusing to connect with them as a daughter because of that pain she stews in. This is a two-way street here.

This I do agree with. I've yet to see any evidence that Emma suffered any lasting, serious emotional damage from Snow's confession, so I don't understand why we act as if she did. I'm not saying that's realistic--it's not--but it's just not really there in the text, imo.

 

For all of their faults, I can't help but feel that Adam and Eddy are in a catch 22, as nothing they do is guaranteed to please everyone. As I said before, Season 1 may be looked on as the best now, but complaints of bad writing and such were everywhere back when it was actually airing. This factor never changes no matter how much the show does.

But that's because chunks of S1 were not well written. Saying that S1 was the best-written season, and saying that chunks of it are not well written, are not mutually exclusive statements. The core problem is that the show cannot achieve consistently good writing. And it's not unfair for fans to call that out, and it doesn't mean that fandom is stuck in an eternal "the grass is always greener" model (I mean, some people are, of course, but not everyone). It means that the fandom, rightly, calls the writing staff out when they suck.

 

My taxonomy of writing goes:

S1: fluctuates between being written average to above average, but with a 6-episode stretch where it was below average and a handful of episodes that hit "good" writing

S2: fluctuates between being written below average to awful, with a handful of average episodes.

S3: fluctuates between being written below average to average, with one or two awful episodes and 2 "good" episodes

 

 

ETA: I ran across this tumblr post earlier today and I think it's really, really telling. especially this part:
 

EVERYONE I have ever spoken to IRL about this show (with the exception of that one hotel concierge, but she was just so taken with “The Evil Queen’s character arc” she’s didn’t really care)—the rank and file “average viewer”, speaks fondly of the first season. But come the later episodes they talk of the noticeable quality shift. It’s like a fucking light switch got flipped.

And mind you, these are folks who just go home after work and flip on the TV to escape the day.

Because that's also been my experience.

 

 

ETA 2: Also--I am not someone who was clamoring for Neverbacks, because frankly I don't really care about any of the characters involved. But I will say that I can understand the desire to have had at least one (certainly it would have been more useful than the fairybacks in "Think Nasty Thoughts" or "Save Henry," both of which were just dumb), because that fairyback would have a) involved two main characters who are b) not Rumpel and Regina and c) whose pasts have actually been woefully underexplored. When you establish that Nealfire and Hook spent 300 years hanging out in Neverland together, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect one Neverback dealing with that relationship, especially as their relationship became important in the present day (and because both characters' backstories have been shown only very sketchily).

 

Whereas with Frozen,

unless they throw us a big curveball, it's looking it's going to be yet another character(s) tied to the Rumpel/Regina nexus. Which, frankly, I'm sick of. Oooh, another fairyback where Regina or Rumpel is evil, prances around, and dicks people over. Wow, that's revolutionary.

Edited July 23, 2014 by stealinghome

[Jean]

I'm pretty sure the ratings speaks for itself when it comes to S1 vs S2 and S3 and the drop off between the seasons which speaks to audience retention. Their biggest mistake is probably getting rid of the semi-procedural format and crawling so far up St. Woegina's ass that they can't see anything else. I'm pretty sure it was the height of delusion when Adam, Eddy and Lana practically screamed from the rooftops that Pan was so much more evil than Rumpel or Woegina cause he didn't regret anything and lo and behold we got "No Regrets."

 

I was rooting for Pan all the way. Robbie Kay made the Neverland arc. What was lacking was "Neverland" could've been a random forest or world somewhere. They just plain didn't use Neverland and we all know the reason why, cause it would've left out their Victim Sue. Rumpel, Hook, and Bae had strong ties to that place and the characters there and we didn't get one single flashback about their relationships to one another. And they didn't do anything with Wendy or Tink either. 

 

Hell Neal didn't even get to react to the fact that Pan is his grand daddy. Rumpel never interacted with Henry. They had 4 generations of that side of the family together and did nothing. That was supposedly Rumpel's arc but compare the Zelena/Woegina and Rumpel/Pan stories. There's a world of difference to what Rumpel got out of Neverland and it wasn't very much.

[Rumsy4]

 

Hell Neal didn't even get to react to the fact that Pan is his grand daddy. Rumpel never interacted with Henry. 

 

I know, right?? Nobody but Woegina is allowed to react to anything. She got to smirk on hearing that Greg and Tamara were dead, but we know nothing about Neal's reaction.Instead, we go Dark Hollow. We don't even know if he knew his father had killed his evil ex-fiancee. OTOH, he didn't confront Rumple about murdering his own mother, so...

Edited July 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Because that's also been my experience.

 

Same with me. I've talked to several casual viewers, and most of them stopped watching or lost most of their interest in S2. Not sure if it was the bad writing or just the non-exciting story arcs. S1 was full of suspense because of the curse, ongoing setup, etc, but S2 just lost the edge-of-your-seat excitement for some reason.

 

I only watched S1/S2 on Netflix. (Confession: I just started watching OUAT regularly right after 3A!) When I watched 2B, I just plowed through each episode without really thinking about them. Rewatching them now, I start to see the problems I didn't see before because I just wasn't paying that much attention. The twists weren't all that great, and the stakes didn't hold much weight, so I didn't feel compelled to keep watching. Mid-3A felt the same way.

Edited July 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts