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PODCAST S01.E15 Go Pirates!: Red Scares

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I'm imagining all of the things Sarah might've been saying and most of them involve bees, so even during technical difficulties you guys make me smile. :D

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Technical difficulties on the podcast. guys!

Yeah. Cuts in and out alot starting at the 28-min mark. Sounds like they may have accidentally mixed out everything but John Ramos' audio channel in the recording or something.

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It's kind of weird for me  to see Max Greenfield again as cute Deputy Leo after seeing him as obnoxious/annoying/OTT, sometimes cute Schmidt for several seasons ..well at least it proves he has range..

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Coming back to add more thoughts on the episode after listening since it was fixed. Yeah.. it was odd that Duncan would make the choice tO go after Meg, but I don’t think Duncan paid attention to the fact that Meg and Veronica were refriending themselves again. I think Duncan only paid attention to Veronica in terms of how it would affect him. Like when she started dating Troy and he lost it a little, because it would impact his life and it seemed like she was moving on. He also sort of gets a little weird In a future episode regarding her and Leo but I’ll talk about that more in that episode. I don’t think I’ll ever like the Duncan character and it doesn’t help that the actor isn’t up par with anyone he shared a screen with. That’s why I always think of him as the nickname Lily called him once Duntstin.

One of my favorite moments with AH as Logan’s sister is when Trina picks him up from the dance and once they are leaving he asks if he can puke in her car and she’s like “just like old times” or something. 

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4 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

 

One of my favorite moments with AH as Logan’s sister is when Trina picks him up from the dance and once they are leaving he asks if he can puke in her car and she’s like “just like old times” or something. 

It is scenes and dialogue like that who made this show seemed so 'real' and relatable despite the noirish californian set up..

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Dammit Logan and Veronica- visual chemistry.  Glad you have a still of Logan doing the gasp- touching the untouchable, outcast Veronica.

Leo is great, but I seem to remember from...ye olde site (yes, I'm old) that they called Leo MarbleMouth.  Be he's still adorable.

The sketch of Veronica in the police office was hilarious- and very apt, given the circumstances.

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1.  Steve the dog bears a striking resemblance to Instagram sensation and friend of the pod Gordon Lightfoot.  

2.  I have theory (not involving bunnies) about the postcard.  It’s a prop to help sell the “Russian lost soul mate” con.

 I think the Russian mafia somehow got a lead that Tom was in Neptune, but couldn’t get further detail.  For some reason, they went to the trouble to gin up a postcard to add credibility to the story that Tom used to love “Caterine” (who doesn’t actually exist since her real name is Yelena) and actually mail it to Chicago from Neptune.  From the reveal, it doesn’t sound like Tom ever had a thing with Yelena and certainly not with “Catherine” as it said on the postcard.  

All of which requires too much fanwank, but it finding a scenario in which Tom sent the cards even more convoluted. 

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I just finished my Season 1 rewatch and watched the deleted scenes for the first time ever. Apparently, the Russian woman dated "Tom Cruze" but he was using her to get to her mobster family. He then gave evidence against them to keep himself out of prison. The postcard was real, to one of his old friends or something. This was most likely cut as it connected to another cut scene where she can't pay and gives Veronica a necklace.

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 7:26 PM, MostlyC said:

Dammit Logan and Veronica- visual chemistry.  Glad you have a still of Logan doing the gasp- touching the untouchable, outcast Veronica.

Leo is great, but I seem to remember from...ye olde site (yes, I'm old) that they called Leo MarbleMouth.  Be he's still adorable.

The sketch of Veronica in the police office was hilarious- and very apt, given the circumstances.

Generally speaking most of what Logan says about Veronica is at odds with his body language and his body language during the bullying phase is all 'I'm lonely, I like you,, pay attention to me', so it isn't really a change in body language, it is a change in spoken language :-)

I think this show may have a theme of inner self matching outer self. Veronica comes into her own when she cuts her hair and dons 'tough girl' clothing. She ends up being stuck with Logan because just when she is able to quit him he shows herself how vulnerable he is. She is always tough and resilient and he is always vulnerable, even fragile.

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 5:11 PM, pau said:

It is scenes and dialogue like that who made this show seemed so 'real' and relatable despite the noirish californian set up..

I don't know, a sixteen year old who regularly has in the past (when he was 13 or 14?) drunkenly vomited in his sister's car doesn't seem very relatable to me. I realize it happens, I just can't relate to it. I really can't stop saying to myself 'now, if they actually looked their age, this would be horrible'. 

I have a positively Lynchian view that small towns are often corrupt and dark, so I can relate to that, I've personally seen some noir small towns. 

Edited by Affogato

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Is there really an active Irish or Russian mafia operating in Southern California? This comes up again, too.  Realistically they would be dealing with Mexican drug cartels, maybe south American weapons runners? Or LA gangs of some sort. Maybe simply too real, or less romantic? Avoiding making POC bad guys? Weevil is overwhelmingly virtuous for a gang leader and his gang has issues but they are obviously manipulated by white people such as Caitlin and the Fitzpatricks. 

Logan's whole arc about his mother is such an opportunity for him to become sympathetic. We haven't seen much of Duncan for a while and actually he did better when he had more than a few stiff lines, the actor I mean, and I imagine he got the attention that should have gone to Veronica's relationship with her mother, which she probably needed as character development, so overall a win for Logan fans but maybe a loss overall for the show?

Honestly there are moments when Veronica has incredible chemistry with Teddy Dunn. I think she has chemistry with whoever she wants. Whatever it is.

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3 hours ago, Affogato said:

I don't know, a sixteen year old who regularly has in the past (when he was 13 or 14?) drunkenly vomited in his sister's car doesn't seem very relatable to me. I realize it happens, I just can't relate to it. I really can't stop saying to myself 'now, if they actually looked their age, this would be horrible'. 

I have a positively Lynchian view that small towns are often corrupt and dark, so I can relate to that, I've personally seen some noir small towns. 

It is totally relatable to me..but i live in Europe..where you smoke pot and drink alcohol in high school (for the alcohol, to buy it before 18 is forbidden but we manage..)..wink..for the small towns, can't really say..i come from big cities..

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35 minutes ago, Affogato said:

which she probably needed as character development, so overall a win for Logan fans but maybe a loss overall for the show?

 

I don't see why..Duncan's relationship with his parents was as much developped..just not as much interesting and/or well acted..that's all.

35 minutes ago, Affogato said:

 

Honestly there are moments when Veronica has incredible chemistry with Teddy Dunn. I think she has chemistry with whoever she wants. Whatever it is.

I disagree

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1 hour ago, Affogato said:

She is always tough and resilient and he is always vulnerable, even fragile.

It is not true and what is beautiful and deep and realistic in their dynamic is by turns each can be vulnerable, fragile OR tough, resilient..they mirror each others many times.

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1 hour ago, pau said:

It is not true and what is beautiful and deep and realistic in their dynamic is by turns each can be vulnerable, fragile OR tough, resilient..they mirror each others many times.

In this episode Veronica gets support from Meg, Wallace, Leo, Keith, and even Trina, for help with Logan. She trusts all of them to different degrees. We see her recover from several blows, the frightening mafia realization, dumb though the story may be, and the Duncan is megs admirer realization. The mom thing. She's making mistakes and moving on.

Logan is getting support only from Veronica and is not reciprocating. He is an emotional drain on someone who is dealing with a lot, including issues with her own mother. Someone who he has not been supporting at all in recent past times. 

 

She is always generally stronger than he is, 

Spoiler

This is one of her realizations at the end of mkat 

But she doesn't always realize it. She's a little oblivious sometimes. 

Edited by Affogato

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14 minutes ago, Affogato said:

In this episode Veronica gets support from Meg, Wallace, Leo, Keith, and even Trina, for help with Logan. She trusts all of them to different degrees. We see her recover from several blows, the frightening mafia realization, dumb though the story may be, and the Duncan is megs admirer realization. The mom thing. She's making mistakes and moving on.

Logan is getting support only from Veronica and is not reciprocating. He is an emotional drain on someone who is dealing with a lot, including issues with her own mother. Someone who he has not been supporting at all in recent past times. 

 

She is always generally stronger than he is, 

  Hide contents

This is one of her realizations at the end of mkat 

But she doesn't always realize it. She's a little oblivious sometimes. 

To me the characterisation is not so clear-cut as you said..but yeah i agree about one thing : Veronica actually gets more support from more people than Logan..who has a lot of superficial relationships..but Duncan tries to support him..well from time to time..like Logan tries to do it for Duncan. They are best friends and their bond is deep..although we don't see much because Veronica is the main character..so above all, we see HER relationships..But the writing is good enough to make us guess it imo. And we also know from futur seasons that Dick has also a deep attachment to Logan..but for now the character is not developed therefore we don't see it onscreen, that's all.

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1 hour ago, pau said:

It is totally relatable to me..but i live in Europe..where you smoke pot and drink alcohol in high school (for the alcohol, to buy it before 18 is forbidden but we manage..)..wink..for the small towns..i come from big cities..

I've lived entirely in cities, except for under five, I've just had contact with small towns. When I was 16 and 17 I did go to parties and drink and do other drugs sometimes. My experience was that in the small towns kids drank more, but in Neptune they didn't have that cornfields for miles excuse.

this does not mean that a sixteen year old who has a history of years of really heavy drinking doesn't have a problem, just like the Neptune '09 rape culture isn't excused by teens have sex. 

I don't want to end up being at odds with you all the time. I have some things I want to look at as I rewatch, don't take it personally. 

I think the character of Logan is pretty unique and consistent and well written and acted.  I applaud his eventual survival. I don't want him to be my boyfriend, I've known people like him.  I like Veronica, I want better for her. 

I understand you don't agree with me. 

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38 minutes ago, pau said:

To me the characterisation is not so clear-cut as you said..but yeah i agree about one thing : Veronica actually gets more support from more people than Logan..who has a lot of superficial relationships..but Duncan tries to support him..well from time to time..like Logan tries to do it for Duncan. They are best friends and their bond is deep..although we don't see much because Veronica is the main character..so above all, we see HER relationships..But the writing is good enough to make us guess it imo. And we also know from futur seasons that Dick has also a deep attachment to Logan..but for now the character is not developed therefore we don't see it onscreen, that's all.

Google separation anxiety and relationships and separation anxiety. If you want. 

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13 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I've lived entirely in cities, except for under five, I've just had contact with small towns. When I was 16 and 17 I did go to parties and drink and do other drugs sometimes. My experience was that in the small towns kids drank more, but in Neptune they didn't have that cornfields for miles excuse.

this does not mean that a sixteen year old who has a history of years of really heavy drinking doesn't have a problem, just like the Neptune '09 rape culture isn't excused by teens have sex. 

I don't want to end up being at odds with you all the time. I have some things I want to look at as I rewatch, don't take it personally. 

I think the character of Logan is pretty unique and consistent and well written and acted.  I applaud his eventual survival. I don't want him to be my boyfriend, I've known people like him.  I like Veronica, I want better for her. 

I understand you don't agree with me. 

I never said the rich kids of Neptune don't have a problem..they have a REAL problem..but it is pretty realistic..and yet it is kind of fictional light depiction ..just watch Larry Clark cinema, his portrayaI of american middle class/rich kids is hardcore..maybe too much sometimes..although i will always have a soft spot for 'kids'..can't help it i am nostalgic of my teenage passion for skate board..

Also i understand but you are not Veronica..

And to me Veronica was flawed like Logan, they 'get' each other and at the end of the day it is what matters imo..but we will not agree about that so let's agree to disagree, no problem.

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44 minutes ago, pau said:

 

Also i understand but you are not Veronica..

And to me Veronica was flawed like Logan, they 'get' each other and at the end of the day it is what matters imo..but we will not agree about that so let's agree to disagree, no problem.

However as we watch episodes perhaps you can point out specific points when he gets her. Or she gets him. Times when they are on the same page.  

Edited by Affogato · Reason: spelling

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3 hours ago, pau said:

I don't see why..Duncan's relationship with his parents was as much developped..just not as much interesting and/or well acted..that's all.

I disagree

I said that Veronica's relationship with her mother could have used more development, or at least what is going on. I was just saying the Logan drama possibly moved into both of their spaces a little, and that this may have had some detrimental effects on the show. One of the things they have talked about in the podcast is that the Veronica's mother storyline was sort of vague and not developed and not really sympathetic because you never really saw why Veronica would want her back, among other things. I'm saying that this could have used some screen time. 

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33 minutes ago, Affogato said:

However as we watch episodes perhaps you can point out specic points when he gets her. Or she gets him. Times when they are on the same page.  

Too many exemples to chose..but the best to me is in a lot of little moments and very often the actors are in sync with each other which make the scene too..but i will try to give some example from time to time. I have several scenes in mind already but they are not in this episode..

In this episode let's see..when Logan refuses Veronica's idea to get the mysterious person out of the hotel room and instead decides to stay in front of the elevator, Veronica is at first a bit annoyed because he doesn't follow her idea/order/plan but very quickly she gets it..and when she comes back later she know he will be there because she knows him, she knows he is stubborn, he will not give up, he will stay for hours and hours until the mysterious person who uses his mom's identity/credit card comes out..like her/because she could do the same thing.. 

Before that, another example..when Veronica comes to the hotel and kiss Logan and plays her little wedding charade, Logan is surprised for just one little second but almost instantly he gets it, and plays her little game..here they are a team and they play the receptionist like masters, they are both quick-witted and think the same way. They 'GET' each other.

And there are other exemples in just this episode..these two characters totally get each other..they are so similar yet so different too..which make their dynamic so fascinating, interesting, real and fun to watch.

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7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I said that Veronica's relationship with her mother could have used more development, or at least what is going on. I was just saying the Logan drama possibly moved into both of their spaces a little, and that this may have had some detrimental effects on the show. One of the things they have talked about in the podcast is that the Veronica's mother storyline was sort of vague and not developed and not really sympathetic because you never really saw why Veronica would want her back, among other things. I'm saying that this could have used some screen time. 

I don't disagree about the mother's stuff..it could have been more developed but at the same time this mom is supposed to be kind of an enigma..so her being kind of vague fit in imo.

Veronica cherish her mother..or rather the idea of her mother, she put her on a pedestal..but she doesn't really know her mother..so Lianne being underdeveloped doesn't bother me much..it serves the plot in a way..also Lianne is a coward..she abandons her beloved daughter, she uses her love..well she is really flawed..but once again it happens, some people are like that..it is life although here it is fictional life but a relatable depiction of people and their failures..human failure..and Veronica will have to live with that..she will learn that not everything can be fixed..even if you want it so much..and this show is noir and a bit cynical..

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Just now, pau said:

I don't disagree about the mother's stuff..it could have been more developed but at the same time this mom is supposed to be kind of an enigma..so her being kind of vague fit in imo.

Veronica cherish her mother..or rather the idea of her mother, she put her on a pedestal..but she doesn't really know her mother..so Lianne being underdeveloped doesn't bother me much..it serves the plot in a way..also Lianne is a coward..she abandons her beloved daughter, she uses her love..well she is really flawed..but once again it happens, some people are like that..it is life although here it is fictional life but a relatable depiction of people and their failures..human failure..and Veronica will have to live with that..she will learn that not everything can be fixed..even if you want it so much..and this show is noir and a bit cynical..

Actually I think that Veronica was the family enabler, she cleaned up after alcoholic mom so the family worked and kept it from Keith. I think Keith kept it from Veronica and also enabled it. Not an unusual alcoholic pattern. I don't think she was idealized, but Veronica and Keith worked to maintain the appearance of an ideal family.  Oddly it is one of the things, that underlying alcoholic mother thing, that Veronica and Logan do understand about each other, although they both had different (more or less textbook) reactions to the situation. 

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4 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Actually I think that Veronica was the family enabler, she cleaned up after alcoholic mom so the family worked and kept it from Keith. I think Keith kept it from Veronica and also enabled it. Not an unusual alcoholic pattern. I don't think she was idealized, but Veronica and Keith worked to maintain the appearance of an ideal family.  Oddly it is one of the things, that underlying alcoholic mother thing, that Veronica and Logan do understand about each other, although they both had different (more or less textbook) reactions to the situation. 

I disagree, i think Veronica idealized a bit Lianne or at least she wanted too..she really really wanted to have her 'ideal/perfect/fairytale' family and her mother was essential for that. She learned to give up that dream but it was hard, really hard for her.

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Veronica's mom was always a bit off in terms of how she's seen in flashbacks pre-Lilly's death and her actions after leaving. She's always sweet and loving and perfect in Veronica's recollections. Did she leave because the thing with Jake had been discovered by Celeste and Jake dumped her? Did she leave because of Wiedman's threats? Did she leave because she's a selfish alcoholic and hated being a social pariah/scorned by the community? I'm not sure the show ever really explained anything.  She was a mystery that Veronica never solved. I'm not sure the writers never really planned what they'd do with her. Mostly, I think we were supposed to see Veronica idealizing her because much of S1 seemed to be Veronica believing that if she solved Lilly's murder, she could somehow return things to the way they were. That was part of what was driving her. Getting her mother home was required as a part of this fantasy.

Spoiler

If you don't think V idealized her mother, look at Veronica's what if Lilly didn't die dream at the end of S2. It had her seeing Lianne as the perfect wife/mother and that was severely at odds with what we know about what Lianne was up to even while Lilly was alive.  It seems like the writers were implying in the dream that without the events of Lilly's death, Veronica never would have had those rose colored glasses torn off about the realities of her family, which seems hard to believe given that she was having an affair with Jake and Celeste knew about it. It's Veronica's idealized version of her mother we get in that sequence.

 

On a separate note, I'd add that even though this show is titled "Veronica Mars", Kristen Bell could not be in every single scene and other characters' stories needed to be told to help aid in not killing the lead actress by overworking her. This was a huge problem in S1 for Bell and Rob Thomas said so. Adding more Lianne/Veronica relationship stuff wasn't feasible because it would need to be in place of some other Veronica storyline, not Logan or Wallace or Weevil or any other character's limited storylines.

Edited by KAOS Agent
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5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Veronica's mom was always a bit off in terms of how she's seen in flashbacks pre-Lilly's death and her actions after leaving. She's always sweet and loving and perfect in Veronica's recollections. Did she leave because the thing with Jake had been discovered by Celeste and Jake dumped her? Did she leave because of Wiedman's threats? Did she leave because she's a selfish alcoholic and hated being a social pariah/scorned by the community? I'm not sure the show ever really explained anything.  She was a mystery that Veronica never solved. I'm not sure the writers never really planned what they'd do with her. Mostly, I think we were supposed to see Veronica idealizing her because much of S1 seemed to be Veronica believing that if she solved Lilly's murder, she could somehow return things to the way they were. That was part of what was driving her. Getting her mother home was required as a part of this fantasy.

  Reveal hidden contents

If you don't think V idealized her mother, look at Veronica's what if Lilly didn't die dream at the end of S2. It had her seeing Lianne as the perfect wife/mother and that was severely at odds with what we know about what Lianne was up to even while Lilly was alive.  It seems like the writers were implying in the dream that without the events of Lilly's death, Veronica never would have had those rose colored glasses torn off about the realities of her family, which seems hard to believe given that she was having an affair with Jake and Celeste knew about it. It's Veronica's idealized version of her mother we get in that sequence.

 

On a separate note, I'd add that even though this show is titled "Veronica Mars", Kristen Bell could not be in every single scene and other characters' stories needed to be told to help aid in not killing the lead actress by overworking her. This was a huge problem in S1 for Bell and Rob Thomas said so. Adding more Lianne/Veronica relationship stuff wasn't feasible because it would need to be in place of some other Veronica storyline, not Logan or Wallace or Weevil or any other character's limited storylines.

The structure of Veronica mars is that of the heroes journey. The call to adventure is followed by the refusal of the call and receiving supernatural help, Lilly's ghost :-), and so on.  She goes through several cycles of this and I believe her mom, then Duncan, then Logan are the refusal for each season/ cycle. When she moves on they become a little diorama of what could have been. 

The atonement of the father goes without saying!

it wouldn't have taken much to clarify the Liane storyline. IMO. A couple of flashbacks. Another missed phone message. Etc.  

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In response to one of Sarah’s questions: my understanding was that Keith broke into the goons’ car, got the information he needed, and eventually drove away in his own car. I could be wrong, but I remember that after he broke into their car,  he went back to the valet and handed him his ticket, and then got his own car keys.

 

14 hours ago, pau said:

I don't disagree about the mother's stuff..it could have been more developed but at the same time this mom is supposed to be kind of an enigma..so her being kind of vague fit in imo.

Veronica cherish her mother..or rather the idea of her mother, she put her on a pedestal..but she doesn't really know her mother...

I agree. When I first watched this show, I remember being very invested in the LIanne mystery merely because Veronica was. Lianne was never that compelling of a character, but I was willing follow Veronica on her quest because it was apparent how much Veronica loved her mother –even though she did  romanticize her memories of Lianne. I also remember that shot of Clarence Wiedman in the mirror and how it scared the shit out of me. And then there was like a 3-week break between episodes, and the wait nearly killed me. 

The vagueness of the Lianne flashbacks works for me since they’re all from Veronica’s perspective. Lianne remembers hanging out with her mom in the kitchen discussing boys and school. But at what point did Lianne become an alcoholic? It probably didn’t happen in the short time between Lilly’s death and Lianne leaving the family.  I think Keith talks about it later, but at this point, I don’t think we know any of the details.

So yes, I do think Veronica has conveniently forgotten Lianne’s faults. Once she realized that she and her mother had been threatened, it didn’t matter to Veronica that Lianne didn’t support Keith after Lilly’s death or that she’d had an affair with Jake Kane or that she’d been an alcoholic. 

 

On 9/23/2017 at 9:51 PM, Librarygirl said:

I just finished my Season 1 rewatch and watched the deleted scenes for the first time ever. Apparently, the Russian woman dated "Tom Cruze" but he was using her to get to her mobster family. He then gave evidence against them to keep himself out of prison. The postcard was real, to one of his old friends or something. This was most likely cut as it connected to another cut scene where she can't pay and gives Veronica a necklace.

So this was kind of Tom’s fault. People in witness protection aren’t supposed to contact with anyone from their former life, especially by mailing a postcard with their real name from their current location. If the family hadn’t located him through Veronica and Keith, they would’ve used another PI. And probably not one as smart as Keith.

And he really was an actor with a headshot? In addition to being an accountant/lawyer/bodyguard or whatever he did for the Mafia family? That confused me on re-watch.

And the lady had checks in the name of her fake identity?

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16 hours ago, Affogato said:

In this episode Veronica gets support from Meg, Wallace, Leo, Keith, and even Trina, for help with Logan. She trusts all of them to different degrees. We see her recover from several blows, the frightening mafia realization, dumb though the story may be, and the Duncan is megs admirer realization. The mom thing. She's making mistakes and moving on.

Logan is getting support only from Veronica and is not reciprocating. He is an emotional drain on someone who is dealing with a lot, including issues with her own mother. Someone who he has not been supporting at all in recent past times. 

I agree. And I wonder if Veronica is drawn to him because she has a caretaker mentality. Which is probably natural for her but is common in children of alcoholics. 

Loved her wedding scrapbook. When did she manage to put that together?

And I know it was obnoxious, but Logan whipping out the credit card and saying, "Then book me a room, Jeeves" was friggin hilarious. Especially because he was rather snotty with Logan and Veronica. 

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3 hours ago, topanga said:

I agree. And I wonder if Veronica is drawn to him because she has a caretaker mentality. Which is probably natural for her but is common in children of alcoholics. 

Loved her wedding scrapbook. When did she manage to put that together?

And I know it was obnoxious, but Logan whipping out the credit card and saying, "Then book me a room, Jeeves" was friggin hilarious. Especially because he was rather snotty with Logan and Veronica. 

I wonder if the wedding scrapbook was something from before Lilly died.  Or something liane made her do . V  seemed too busy to spend time cutting and pasting that day  

So Trina had already stolen the credit card before she left for Australia as insurance? That confused me, too.

absolutely a caretaker but not nurturing.  Like her dad . 

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14 minutes ago, Affogato said:

absolutely a caretaker but not nurturing.  Like her dad

Interesting take. Veronica certainly isn't warm and fuzzy (most of the time). But how do you consider nurturing different from being a caretaker? 

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2 hours ago, topanga said:

Interesting take. Veronica certainly isn't warm and fuzzy (most of the time). But how do you consider nurturing different from being a caretaker? 

Thinking of how Logan collapses on her in this episode. She looked uncomfortable, awkwardly pats him and then hugs. Her first look is all 'dude....dude'

 

lets say you have a five year old and another five year old steals his stuffed toad. I'm thinking nurturing is comforting the child and then finding another toad for the kid.  Veronica would find the other child's parents, get the toad back and maybe get the parents car towed. Maybe without the kid knowing. Maybe it isn't even her kid. Or you know breaking into the evidence garage so your kid doesn't have to. Not going home with Logan after he finds out his mother is truly dead but making sure he gets home when he arrives at the dance drunk and without pants.

 

Maybe not making sense. 

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I'm late to the party, and still catching up on this podcast... I wanted to jump in on the conversation you were having about Leo being that guy you meet at the wrong age to appreciate him. Have you read the post-movie Veronica Mars books? In the second one,

she ends up working a case with Leo while Logan is deployed, and she has this 'hmm' moment about him at the end, but then there was never a third book to tug at that loose end.

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