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S02.E04: The Sins of the Father

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9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Thanks, corrected it. Yeah . . . British nobility is so horribly inbred its a wonder it has managed to survive.

Not as inbred as the Spanish Habsburgs. ::shudder::

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 I am just so happy she got a pup....thought it would be a corgie? It is a tradition now.

Welsh corgis just happen to be the favorite of Elizabeth II since childhood. It wasn't a tradition among monarchs or anything. In fact, Dash was a King Charles spaniel which had been a tradition for the royal family since . . . well, King Charles. 

Edited by iMonrey

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20 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Why was Mrs. Skerrett still around after getting dismissed for lying who she was and being the source of the gossip sold to the papers?

So Albert could give her a second chance...clunky plot glitch....

The scripts of Victoria do not have the smoothness or ease of Downtown Abbey or The Crown.....

That whole Skerriet/Albert interaction was awkward.  I would guess they'd have to find another dresser before she could really leave.  But Arthur was offering her new apartments in the palace as well?  How did that work?  Did she get a promotion because Albert knew Victoria needed a friend/dresser?  Maybe she was promoted to ladies maid or something?

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1 hour ago, scenicbyway said:

That whole Skerriet/Albert interaction was awkward.  I would guess they'd have to find another dresser before she could really leave.

Albert made reference to "someone pretending to be someone they are not" which makes me think he's referring to himself as being a bastard son.  I wonder if he just feels likes pretending so has empathy for Skerrett.  I am still flummoxed as to why she was wandering around the place after she'd been fired.  Normally they got immediately booted out, bag and baggage.

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"I feel like I have elves around my person."

That has been my favorite line of the series. It is SO Albert.

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Well, I actually found this episode boring.  Not a fan of the portrayal of Albert, although I enjoy Ernst!  Way too much revision of history.  "Luke, Albert, I am your father..."  So, if Albert were truly as noble as he is being presented on this show, he would have immediately told Victoria and then left England.  But no, instead he forgives Mrs. Skerritt in an attempt to justify to himself his "deceptiveness."  I guess that from now on he will have to forget and rehire almost everyone.  "I know what it's like to live a life different from your own, so I understand that you are not really responsible for killing..."  Whatever.  History is fascinating as it is, I don't understand why so many writers want to create soap opera drama for its own sake.  

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This episode, along with the previous episode were my favorites of the series. There was so much emotion in both episodes with both Albert and Victoria. I would have been happy to watch an entire episode of drunk Albert and Ernest. 

I noticed that the actors who played Ernest and Leopold sounded so similar in regards to their accents and the tones of their voices. I had to look up a few times to see which one was talking because they sounded so similar compared to Albert’s soft voice (I love how he pronounces Victoria). 

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I'm enjoying this series immensely. The scenes between Ernst and the Princess Alda from Germany were some of the best. His reaction to her up-tight,  sour personality were great. I loved it. We could use some more of that in this series. All of the actors are very talented IMO.

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On 1/22/2018 at 12:06 PM, iMonrey said:

 

So I take it that Uncle Leopold was suggesting that he is actually Albert's biological father? There's no historical evidence of that either.

There actually is some evidence that Leopold was Albert’s father, although it is not conclusive by any means.  It’s outlined in a book called The Coburg Conspiracy.  I have a copy of it, but don’t have it with me at the moment. Here’s a news article about Albert’s possible parentage that references the book:

 

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/893279/Prince-Albert-real-father-Queen-Victoria-The-Coburg-Conspiracy-book-Victoria-ITV

Edited by eejm
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On 1/22/2018 at 1:06 PM, iMonrey said:

Drummond is Robert Peel's private secretary. He was introduced to us in the Season 2 premier. He is probably a fictional character.  Lord Alfred was a real person, he is Chief Equerry and Clerk Marshal to the Queen. He was introduced last season and I believe he was at one time considered as a possible candidate to be Victoria's husband (maybe only in-show) as he is of noble birth. 

So I take it that Uncle Leopold was suggesting that he is actually Albert's biological father? There's no historical evidence of that either.

I did like the nice little scene between the Duchess and Victoria about her postpartum depression. I'm sure most people didn't even know that was a thing back then.

Drummond was a real person.

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On the Wikipedia page about all of Victoria/Albert's pets, there are many dogs, ponies, a couple birds and even a donkey ... but no cats! As a cat lover, I find this unacceptable! ;-) Did Victorian era people not like cats? (I know cats have been kept as pets in some cultures back to ancient times, but maybe not English high society?)

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Wow, poor little Bertie never really had a chance did he?  I did like the portrayal of postpartum and that it ended up being the Duchess to help her out of it. The new puppy is very cute. I loved the drunk scene with Albert and Ernest. Those two together always end up being my favorite scenes. I really didn't like Leopold telling him he was his father. It was weird and there was no reason for it. Also, how did you expect him to react Leopold? Your surprised when he's not thrilled? 

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4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really didn't like Leopold telling him he was his father. It was weird and there was no reason for it.

Unless Albert was born more 10 months since Ernst had been with his wife, there was no way that Leopold could be sure he was the father. Since Ernst didn't suspect anything, either he was with her 9-10 months before Albert was born, he had a very bad memory, or he was really bad at counting

In addition, Leopold's revelation was also a way of saying that, in the parlance of those times, Albert's mother was a whore, which he had probably heard plenty of already, so it wasn't likely to endear him to Albert.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Unless Albert was born more 10 months since Ernst had been with his wife, there was no way that Leopold could be sure he was the father. Since Ernst didn't suspect anything, either he was with her 9-10 months before Albert was born, he had a very bad memory, or he was really bad at counting

Also, Leopold's revelation was also a way of saying that, in the parlance of those times, Albert's mother was a whore, which he had probably heard plenty of already, so it wasn't likely to endear him to Albert.

I agree. There is no way for Leopold to know for sure. But given how Ernst got rid of his wife after learning of her affair, one would assume he would have done it then if he had any reason to suspect someone else was the father of her baby.  

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6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. There is no way for Leopold to know for sure. But given how Ernst got rid of his wife after learning of her affair, one would assume he would have done it then if he had any reason to suspect someone else was the father of her baby.  

Albert's mother was exiled from court when he was 5.

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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:33 PM, Moxie Cat said:

What happened to Emma if Lord M. died at the end of episode 3? I know visiting her sister was a ruse but she never came back. There wasn't even any comment about the passing of Lord M., was there?

It seems we are supposed to think Lord M. died?  I know this is a dramatic version of history, but he lived many years after the birth of little Prince Albert.  I know it was a very affecting scene (end of last episode), but the lack of any mention of him in this current episode made me wonder if he had actually died or not.  

Completely agree that it was very odd that "Mrs." Skerrit was still in the palace days after she had been dismissed.  I was wondering how they would find her, as I was sure she woud be un-fired. 

Edited by jjj
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15 hours ago, jjj said:

It seems we are supposed to think Lord M. died?  I know this is a dramatic version of history, but he lived many years after the birth of little Prince Albert.

I know the lack of clarity on the show's part regarding when Lord M died is frustrating because Rufus Sewell made him such a charismatic character, and the writing (implied emotional connection) led us to want to see more of him and Victoria together. However, I realized (after confirming that Lord M had lived quite a number of years after the last scene we saw of him) that his end was deliberately left vague, but truthful.  From what I could gather, Lord M had the stroke (we were shown) and spent his remaining years very much secluded from society. He was no longer a player in the greater story that was Victoria's reign. Sure, she may have written him from time to time, or even sent him gifts. Who knows. But for the purpose of this story, even acknowledging his death much later on would not be a good use of screen time given how much else needs to be covered.

So I've come to view those very affecting last scenes - and the dying notes of the mechanical bird - as a metaphor for the end of Lord M as a player in Victoria's life. I expect she always held the memory of her time with him in fond regard and that last scene portrayed it beautifully.

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Thank you very much for articulating the ambiguity of the end of Lord M. vis-à-vis Victoria.  And I agree that the final scene was just perfect, and so wrenching, with the scene written so that both of them knew it was their last meeting, but neither could acknowledge this, to preserve the dignity of their relationship.  I've had to do that, and wish I could have done it as well as that scene. 

I expected to see some acknowledgment of his death in this episode, which is the reason I am asking here.  They did acknowledge the passing of Dash again! 

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

I know the lack of clarity on the show's part regarding when Lord M died is frustrating because Rufus Sewell made him such a charismatic character, and the writing (implied emotional connection) led us to want to see more of him and Victoria together. However, I realized (after confirming that Lord M had lived quite a number of years after the last scene we saw of him) that his end was deliberately left vague, but truthful.  From what I could gather, Lord M had the stroke (we were shown) and spent his remaining years very much secluded from society. He was no longer a player in the greater story that was Victoria's reign. Sure, she may have written him from time to time, or even sent him gifts. Who knows. But for the purpose of this story, even acknowledging his death much later on would not be a good use of screen time given how much else needs to be covered.

So I've come to view those very affecting last scenes - and the dying notes of the mechanical bird - as a metaphor for the end of Lord M as a player in Victoria's life. I expect she always held the memory of her time with him in fond regard and that last scene portrayed it beautifully.

Edited by jjj
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15 hours ago, floridamom said:

I don't understand the connection/relationship between Lord M. and Emma. Is she his sister or a relative of his?

 Emma Portman, Viscountess Portman was not a relative of Melbourne.  She has been portrayed as a dear friend of his.

 

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

So I've come to view those very affecting last scenes - and the dying notes of the mechanical bird - as a metaphor for the end of Lord M as a player in Victoria's life. I expect she always held the memory of her time with him in fond regard and that last scene portrayed it beautifully.

I think you are right about this.  I wish I could find back the interview given by Daisy Goodwin where she acknowledges that she wrote the scene of Dash's death and the hints of Lord M's impending death to be symbolic of the end of Victoria's childhood. (I'll keep looking)  If you do search for "Lord Melbourne" and "Daisy Goodwin" you will find the articles where she acknowledges that Melbourne did not die at that time and hints that we may see him again.

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49 minutes ago, elle said:

 Emma Portman, Viscountess Portman was not a relative of Melbourne.  She has been portrayed as a dear friend of his.

 

I think you are right about this.  I wish I could find back the interview given by Daisy Goodwin where she acknowledges that she wrote the scene of Dash's death and the hints of Lord M's impending death to be symbolic of the end of Victoria's childhood. (I'll keep looking)  If you do search for "Lord Melbourne" and "Daisy Goodwin" you will find the articles where she acknowledges that Melbourne did not die at that time and hints that we may see him again.

I found one article about the ambiguity at the end of the previous episode and the reason the fate of Lord M is not discussed in this episode.  No spoilers in this article, but I'll put the most relevant paragraph behind spoiler bars.  Here is the link, which requires painless registration (free, for two articles per month).   Actually, I am putting the link behind spoiler bars, also, as it contains the headline.  This is by Daisy Goodwin, about her own "crush" on Lord M:  
 

And a relevant paragraph is: 

Spoiler

"The end of Lord M? Well it should be — the real Lord M died in 1848. However, the problem with an imaginary hero is that they are immortal. I can tell myself that it is all over, but every time I imagine writing more Victoria I can feel him creeping into the edge of my consciousness. He is the old flame that you can never quite get over, the one that got away.  It’s a perfect relationship untainted by reality, but I suppose for the sake of my sanity and my marriage I should really say goodbye to the man I love. I fully intended in this series to kill him off, but when it came to it, I found that I just couldn’t do it. I have left, in my own head certainly, a sliver of hope. I am not ready to break my own heart."

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I remember many years ago watching a program with Julie Harris as Victoria, where Albert told her quite frankly that he didn't know who his father was. The rumor must have been known of enough to include in the drama.

On another note, I've also heard rumors about Victoria's parentage, as there was no history of hemophilia in her father's (an English royal duke) family, while her mother was known to have acquaintances with a few German families that did have histories of hemophilia. Does anyone else know anything about this?

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On 2/5/2018 at 11:03 PM, dubbel zout said:

Hemophilia is passed down through the female line.

Yes it is, but a male who actually has hemophilia will pass his defective X gene to his daughters. (One of Victoria's sons had the disease but lived to have children of his own.)

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On 2/9/2018 at 11:44 AM, Tyro49 said:

Yes it is, but a male who actually has hemophilia will pass his defective X gene to his daughters. (One of Victoria's sons had the disease but lived to have children of his own.)

To quote Wikipedia: The rate of spontaneous mutation is known to increase with paternal age, and Victoria's father was 51 at her birth.

And, logistically, it would have been hard for her mother to have an affair with a male hemophiliac, because in that time, most of them died young. (Victoria's son Leopold did have children, but he died as the result of a fall, as a fairly young man.)

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On ‎22‎.‎1‎.‎2018 at 4:47 PM, PRgal said:

That sadness she had when she was visiting the explosion victims was not just her showing sympathy towards explosion victims and their families, but postpartum.  I think it was MORE postpartum than sympathy if I can say that. 

No doubt Victoria suffered of postpartum depression, in addition to being unable to love her baby son and feeling guilty because of it. In the hospital her tears could have been for herself, but evidently weren't as she showed genuine empathy towards the wounded man by saying that her daughter will be proud of so brave a father. So it seemed that the visit helped Victoria to feel better as she noticed that the others had much more serious problems than her.    

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On ‎26‎.‎1‎.‎2018 at 5:32 PM, seacliffsal said:

"Luke, Albert, I am your father..."  So, if Albert were truly as noble as he is being presented on this show, he would have immediately told Victoria and then left England.  

I don't find anything noble in abandoning one's wife and children, not to speak of making them objects of public scandal.

In any case, if a husband hasn't in time made no objection that the child his wife gave birth isn't his, it's too late afterwards.

The Danish Queen, Caroline Mathilde, originally a Princess of Great Britain, was accused of adultery and her lover was executed but her daughter's lehitime position questioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Matilda_of_Great_Britain There is also a movie about the affair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Royal_Affair   

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Albert seems to have very bourgeois ideals of privacy.

Traditionally, the life in the court meant public life.      

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On 1/23/2018 at 8:33 PM, Moxie Cat said:

What happened to Emma if Lord M. died at the end of episode 3? I know visiting her sister was a ruse but she never came back. There wasn't even any comment about the passing of Lord M., was there?

I think Lord M has not died yet, just had a stroke. He died in 1848. Bertie was born 1841. 

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On 2/4/2018 at 1:25 AM, jjj said:

I found one article about the ambiguity at the end of the previous episode and the reason the fate of Lord M is not discussed in this episode.  No spoilers in this article, but I'll put the most relevant paragraph behind spoiler bars.  Here is the link, which requires painless registration (free, for two articles per month).   Actually, I am putting the link behind spoiler bars, also, as it contains the headline.  This is by Daisy Goodwin, about her own "crush" on Lord M:  
 

And a relevant paragraph is: 

  Reveal hidden contents

"The end of Lord M? Well it should be — the real Lord M died in 1848. However, the problem with an imaginary hero is that they are immortal. I can tell myself that it is all over, but every time I imagine writing more Victoria I can feel him creeping into the edge of my consciousness. He is the old flame that you can never quite get over, the one that got away.  It’s a perfect relationship untainted by reality, but I suppose for the sake of my sanity and my marriage I should really say goodbye to the man I love. I fully intended in this series to kill him off, but when it came to it, I found that I just couldn’t do it. I have left, in my own head certainly, a sliver of hope. I am not ready to break my own heart."

Alrighty, then.

Spoiler

So, instead of striving for some historical accuracy and attempting to depict Victoria’s relationship with Lord M, the creator is struggling to find ways to include the Lord  M character in the show because she created an almost totally fictitious character she named Lord M, fell in love with him, and cannot bring herself kill him off. Nice.

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Did anyone else get a vibe from this episode that maybe Ernest knew about Albert being Leopold’s son? The way Ernest cut Albert off in the tavern from talking about Leopold and later after Albert hightailed it out of Coburg and Ernest and Leopold exchanged the “I wonder why” like they both knew why. Love the Albert and Ernest brotherly relationship. The actors are  incredible together portraying an authentic brother connection. I’m surprised the number of times I’ve teared up during Albert and Ernest’s interactions.

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I'm late in responding to this, nolefan, but yes, I got that vibe too. That's in keeping, too, with Ernst being more aware of how terrible their childhood Christmases were than Albert was. I think his being older and being more of a people person made him more perceptive about these things than Albert was. 

Albert's not my favorite character, but I love his scenes with Ernst. They really do have a great brother relationship. 

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