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PODCAST S01.E13 Go Pirates!: Cred With The Urban Demo

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I liked this episode.  We got to see Veronica and Lily be mean girls- so we got a sense of who they were and how they could be to other students- and how different Veronica is now.  

The little brother's comment to his Dad after he gives back the ring is awesome.  Pretend-Thug-Life Dad is going to respect his son's brain big time now.

And Logan/Aaron kill it in this episode. Absolutely. Kill. It.

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I certainly liked this episode more than I initially did. The weekly mystery wasn't very interesting, but I enjoyed the flashbacks and the scenes with V and Wallace. 

Sarah's and John's takes on the 'cred with the urban demographic demo' writing was interesting. I never found it offensive or patronizing as much as I did slightly tone deaf. I mean, I get that Veronica was being facetious when she kept trying to sound cool. But even the dialogue from Wallace, Bone Hamilton, and Dime Bag was clunky at best. In other words, it sounded like a script written by white people who were trying to capture how they thought inner-city, hip-hop influenced black people would talk. And it mostly didn't work for me. But I wasn't bothered much because that's how Hollywood tends to operate. 

I actually liked Teddy Dunn's clueless face when he was talking to Logan during Lynn's repass. It fit the tone of the scene, and was some of TD's best acting, IMO.

I agree that some of the big mysteries of the season get shelved for several episodes at a time, which is really strange. e.g. Did Veronica 'forget' that she got raped or that Duncan might be her brother? She hasn't thought about or talked about either one in a while. 

ETA: Oh, yeah. Who's your daddy? That massage creeped me out. A dad who's close to his daughter might squeeze her shoulders affectionately. But Keith's massage went on way too long. 

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Liked his week's visual aids, as usual.  The final scene with Veronica opening the door of Logan was one of my favorite moments of the season. And Kristen Bell looked adorable--glad you captured that. 

I'm surprised you didn't comment on that wall of glass blocks in the lawyer's office.  That is so '80s-'90s. 

And Lily's insistence that 'we're the best' is classic confident Lilly, with Veronica doing her best Ed McMahon in the background. "Yes, sir, you are right!" (Do you guys even know who Ed McMahon and Johnny Carson are? Man, I'm old). 

I remember from one of John's recaps that he said, "We love you, Lilly, but you look like a Brats doll." That's stuck with me all of these years later because it's true. Lilly was cute and confident, and she made everyone believe it. I don't think she even cared that she wasn't a perfect supermodel. 

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I like parts of this episode but I agree the mystery of the weak isn't great.

Some little things I liked that others haven't mentioned: I love Veronica telling Wallace that she and Yolanda "used to be friends". I like Bryce's scheme and Veronica figuring it out. Lots of fun private investigating stuff.

I wonder what the plan was for Logan's sister at this point? I'm surprised they don't even mention her name. Also...a telegram? Gives Logan some good dialogue but didn't they have email in Sydney in 2005? ?

A You Aughtta Know miss: Keith describing to Bone that Yolanda (on the video) can see him and that the pinhole at the top of the laptop screen is a camera!

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I haven't rewatched the episode yet, I've been immersed in the confusion of Twin Peaks, the Return.

Still, the way Logan's leaning into the kiss shows that girl didn't just accidentally fall on his lips.

Logan was a riot at the funeral, but very well played. Hysterical edge well balanced. In the finger gun scene he seems so physically small, I've noticed this in other shots of Dohring when he's clothed, there is a picture of him with the male cast of I zombie at some gym and the same thing strikes me. I think it is the relatively small head.

Is the avocado/yellow/orange pallet in Mars Investigations supposed to indicate the office hadn't been redecorated since the 70s? Might make sense.....

The Honda doesn't seem like Lilly, does it?

9 hours ago, topanga said:

Liked his week's visual aids, as usual.  The final scene with Veronica opening the door of Logan was one of my favorite moments of the season. And Kristen Bell looked adorable--glad you captured that. 

I'm surprised you didn't comment on that wall of glass blocks in the lawyer's office.  That is so '80s-'90s. 

And Lily's insistence that 'we're the best' is classic confident Lilly, with Veronica doing her best Ed McMahon in the background. "Yes, sir, you are right!" (Do you guys even know who Ed McMahon and Johnny Carson are? Man, I'm old). 

I remember from one of John's recaps that he said, "We love you, Lilly, but you look like a Brats doll." That's stuck with me all of these years later because it's true. Lilly was cute and confident, and she made everyone believe it. I don't think she even cared that she wasn't a perfect supermodel. 

They are good visual aids.

I think Lilly is represented as someone who would have been the girl everyone wanted to be with if she had been poor. Intensely charismatic and maybe a lot less confident than she seemed to others. I've known similar people and many of them feel that one of their faults is their need to be loved all the time by everyone.

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I said this on twitter, but my BFF and I find the "who's your daddy" segment a little melodramatic. We're both super close to our parents, and physical contact doesn't creep either of us out - neither does the occasional off-color joke. I've always been a touchy-feely person and I never grew out of it.  When I'm walking around with my parents I occasionally will hold hands with them and I've been known to give both of them shoulder massages or to scratch their backs (and vice versa). When we're watching TV I often lean on my mom - it's comfortable and comforting to me. At this point my dad's become unsteady on his feet, so it's good we already have a rapport - offering my hand or arm isn't weird to help steady him.  The only time I was made to feel weird and maybe took a step away was when I walked into a shop with my dad (who was in his late 50's and I was in my mid 20's) and the clerk asked if we were on our honeymoon or something like that. We weren't touching at all, and I very strongly resemble him, so. . .  sometimes people are really weird. My friend's family are similarly comfortable with one another, and they all peck hello/goodbye on the mouth - and no, it's not anything like that SNL skit. We're both in our early 30's and our parents were all hippies or hippie adjacent, so maybe it's a generational thing? Just wanted to add another perspective. 


(Also, could y'all not call them "Aught-isms"? It's real problematic.)

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10 hours ago, topanga said:

Liked his week's visual aids, as usual.  The final scene with Veronica opening the door of Logan was one of my favorite moments of the season. And Kristen Bell looked adorable--glad you captured that. 

I'm surprised you didn't comment on that wall of glass blocks in the lawyer's office.  That is so '80s-'90s. 

And Lily's insistence that 'we're the best' is classic confident Lilly, with Veronica doing her best Ed McMahon in the background. "Yes, sir, you are right!" (Do you guys even know who Ed McMahon and Johnny Carson are? Man, I'm old). 

I remember from one of John's recaps that he said, "We love you, Lilly, but you look like a Brats doll." That's stuck with me all of these years later because it's true. Lilly was cute and confident, and she made everyone believe it. I don't think she even cared that she wasn't a perfect supermodel. 

I freaking loved this last scene and the chemistry between KB and JD was perfect in this scene..both pretty vulnerable..

And Lily was totally the poster child for 'wild child' : she was pretty flawed..a brat, selfish, sometimes pretty shallow but her free spirit, take charge/alpha/charismatic persona was so endearing to me at the same time and you saw she loved and protected her best friend Veronica..and Amanda Seyfried showed range because it was such a contrast to her goofy/dumbass Karen Smith from Mean Girls character..

Edited by pau
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On 07/09/2017 at 7:11 AM, topanga said:

 

Sarah's and John's takes on the 'cred with the urban demographic demo' writing was interesting. I never found it offensive or patronizing as much as I did slightly tone deaf. I mean, I get that Veronica was being facetious when she kept trying to sound cool. But even the dialogue from Wallace, Bone Hamilton, and Dime Bag was clunky at best. In other words, it sounded like a script written by white people who were trying to capture how they thought inner-city, hip-hop influenced black people would talk. And it mostly didn't work for me. But I wasn't bothered much because that's how Hollywood tends to operate. 

 

I heard somewhere the guy who plays Wallace; Percy Daggs iii talking about that..haha.

He loved Rob Thomas dialogue in general obviously but he still talked about his issues with some 'black people/ghetto' dialogue RT could inject from time to time..

But yeah Hollywood is not good at it..pretty cliche rich white pov..the only show quite good at it was the Wire..and yet..

Edited by pau
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17 hours ago, Libby521 said:

A You Aughtta Know miss: Keith describing to Bone that Yolanda (on the video) can see him and that the pinhole at the top of the laptop screen is a camera!

That made me laugh...though nothing quite compares to a 2002(!!) episode of Buffy where Willow explains that "Google" is a search engine.

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8 hours ago, pau said:

But yeah Hollywood is not good at it..pretty cliche rich white pov..the only show quite good at it was the Wire..and yet..

Yeah, I thought VM didn't manage this too well general. The stories black characters are involved in include a violent hip-hop mogul, Jacqui's retired athlete father, Wallace's drug dealing and/or undercover cop father (I always found that really unclear), Wallace's college basketball recruitment problems, Jacqui's secret teenage parenthood...

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oooooof, I forgot all of those. But we'll get to them! Y...ay?

 

Quote

We're both in our early 30's and our parents were all hippies or hippie adjacent, so maybe it's a generational thing? 

Mentioned this on Twitter, but yeah, could be that's a factor. I'm in my mid-40s and my dad is 30 years older, so that Eisenhower's-America upbringing (with no sisters, not for nothing) is part of it. Most of it is that my father is emotionally reserved -- not cold or shy, but very even-keeled and to this day not comfortable with a certain...storminess of temperament in his kids. I can count on one hand the number of times he's raised his voice, for any reason. (John actually wondered aloud one time if I was SURE he'd been a Wall Street guy, hee.) So, while Dave Sr. and I are very close and he was a (literally) hands-on dad when we were little, it's manifested more obliquely now that everyone's adults. And that's not the "right way," of course, just my normal.

 

On the show...this particular manifestation of a more snuggly post-puberty familiarity between Keith and Veronica hits a weird note for me (and John) in that there's a teasing work-spouse tone to it that doesn't quiiiiite play, given the reasons for the mother/wife's absence etc. and so on. I haven't done a great job articulating why I think sometimes it crosses a line, but the "scrawny" scene is probably the best example so far re: my feeling that that would never happen and other women not seeing anything unusual about her defending her shape to her male parent. Which may happen! But my pops would greet any iteration of it with "no hablo," so: YMMV.

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1 hour ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

On the show...this particular manifestation of a more snuggly post-puberty familiarity between Keith and Veronica hits a weird note for me (and John) in that there's a teasing work-spouse tone to it that doesn't quiiiiite play, given the reasons for the mother/wife's absence etc. and so on. I haven't done a great job articulating why I think sometimes it crosses a line, but the "scrawny" scene is probably the best example so far re: my feeling that that would never happen and other women not seeing anything unusual about her defending her shape to her male parent. Which may happen! But my pops would greet any iteration of it with "no hablo," so: YMMV.

This. And Veronica tells sex jokes to her DAD. I'm in my mid 40s and I still get uncomfortable watching love scenes with my mother--I would never joke with her about my sex life--or hers. And Veronica reminds her dad that he's sexually active. How many teenagers like to think about, much less talk about, their parents having sex?

I will give Veronica some leeway because only children tend to be more precocious than their multi-sibling friends, and as the only child around adults, they’re often allowed to say adult-type things that other kids can’t get away with saying.

But she does take it too far sometimes, and Keith will interject with a “Hey! That’s not funny” every now and then. But why would Veronica want to joke with her dad about the sex with Troy being great or say that she has crabs when she’s pretending to be a sorority girl? And on the flip side, Keith cares way to much about Veronica wanting to spend alone time with him. Is it because Lianne left him, and he’s lonely? And from the pilot, Keith has got to know that “Who’s your daddy?” is a sexual phrase. Right? If not, why hasn’t Veronica told him?

Overall, I don’t think their actual relationship is inappropriate. In other words, there’s nothing that suggests an incestuous relationship—or even incestuous thoughts—between Keith and Veronica.  Their exchanges are just cringe-worthy sometimes.  

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59 minutes ago, topanga said:

This. And Veronica tells sex jokes to her DAD. I'm in my mid 40s and I still get uncomfortable watching love scenes with my mother--I would never joke with her about my sex life--or hers. And Veronica reminds her dad that he's sexually active. How many teenagers like to think about, much less talk about, their parents having sex?

I will give Veronica some leeway because only children tend to be more precocious than their multi-sibling friends, and as the only child around adults, they’re often allowed to say adult-type things that other kids can’t get away with saying.

But she does take it too far sometimes, and Keith will interject with a “Hey! That’s not funny” every now and then. But why would Veronica want to joke with her dad about the sex with Troy being great or say that she has crabs when she’s pretending to be a sorority girl? And on the flip side, Keith cares way to much about Veronica wanting to spend alone time with him. Is it because Lianne left him, and he’s lonely? And from the pilot, Keith has got to know that “Who’s your daddy?” is a sexual phrase. Right? If not, why hasn’t Veronica told him?

Overall, I don’t think their actual relationship is inappropriate. In other words, there’s nothing that suggests an incestuous relationship—or even incestuous thoughts—between Keith and Veronica.  Their exchanges are just cringe-worthy sometimes.  

And yet many many (majority of the audience, tv critics..) praised Veronica/Keith relationship when talking about Veronica Mars, many even said it was their favorite thing about this show..And many media outlet always put Keith in the best tv dad top list..so it is kind of funny..However i understand the issue highlighted here..well i loved their dynamic in general but i can understand the cringe worthy aspect of some of their dialogue/scenes..and for example i never find the 'who's your daddy' funny or endearing..to me it was corny and yeah..cringy..

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2 hours ago, topanga said:

But she does take it too far sometimes, and Keith will interject with a “Hey! That’s not funny” every now and then. But why would Veronica want to joke with her dad about the sex with Troy being great or say that she has crabs when she’s pretending to be a sorority girl? And on the flip side, Keith cares way to much about Veronica wanting to spend alone time with him. Is it because Lianne left him, and he’s lonely? And from the pilot, Keith has got to know that “Who’s your daddy?” is a sexual phrase. Right? If not, why hasn’t Veronica told him?

 

I think Keith is interested in spending time with Veronica because he almost certainly didn't spend much time with her when he was working all the time and trying to process what he was going to do about his drunk wife (this is how Veronica deals with things, they really are the same person); then he lost his job and had to spend a lot of time away from home, and during that time something happened to Veronica and he doesn't know what it is, but he feels as if he should have been there for her. The interplay with Rebecca, he realizes he brushed Veronica off when he was called into the meeting and let her set the rules. He's trying to fix that, so he is trying to spend time with her. He pushes a little hard because at this point she is withdrawing a little more.

Veronica and Keith know its a sexual phrase, the joke is that he pretends he doesn't, he's being an embarrassing dad person.  Her confirming that it is cringe worthy is part of the interplay, it is a way of establishing that they are normal people

Honestly giving a shoulder rub in a nonsexual context doesn't creep me out and the jokes don't either. Veronica is mostly using them to create distance at this point, later (say, in the movie) she is using them to create a closeness that may have escaped them. And he is, too.

I'm honestly not sure but when we get to season three, when he is withdrawing from her so she will leave the nest, if he does do that kind of joking? It seems to me that both of their relationships are more formal. but wait and see.

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4 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

oooooof, I forgot all of those. But we'll get to them! Y...ay?

 

Mentioned this on Twitter, but yeah, could be that's a factor. I'm in my mid-40s and my dad is 30 years older, so that Eisenhower's-America upbringing (with no sisters, not for nothing) is part of it. Most of it is that my father is emotionally reserved -- not cold or shy, but very even-keeled and to this day not comfortable with a certain...storminess of temperament in his kids. I can count on one hand the number of times he's raised his voice, for any reason. (John actually wondered aloud one time if I was SURE he'd been a Wall Street guy, hee.) So, while Dave Sr. and I are very close and he was a (literally) hands-on dad when we were little, it's manifested more obliquely now that everyone's adults. And that's not the "right way," of course, just my normal.

 

On the show...this particular manifestation of a more snuggly post-puberty familiarity between Keith and Veronica hits a weird note for me (and John) in that there's a teasing work-spouse tone to it that doesn't quiiiiite play, given the reasons for the mother/wife's absence etc. and so on. I haven't done a great job articulating why I think sometimes it crosses a line, but the "scrawny" scene is probably the best example so far re: my feeling that that would never happen and other women not seeing anything unusual about her defending her shape to her male parent. Which may happen! But my pops would greet any iteration of it with "no hablo," so: YMMV.

My parents were pretty reserved and handled teaching me about sex badly but we could all have been at a play or concert watching people actually get naked and have sex in jello without any of us being embarrassed. Read out loud from Naked Lunch. Whatever. Because context, I guess. My family was not good at intimacy, but also not particularly prudish. I'm closer to your Dad's age, so not necessarily generational. Also Keith and Veronica are supposed to be Italian, traditionally a touchy-feely group.

In a meta sense I see this as Keith as the Patriarchy, this is where Veronica is supposed to learn how to act towards men. Learning how to be a spouse, while she is struggling to be a partner (this comes out in the movie and books, too). I honestly, sorry, think a lot of this story is about Veronica's relationship with men, young tarot fool that she is, thinking the best of everyone, moving forward off that cliff. When Mom leaves she takes over Mom's job and then, being who she is, starts to take over his job. He has some issues with this. She should stay safe in the societally prescribed role, go to school, get a good safe job.

On a reality level it is creepy how she fills the wife role so perfectly, you can see the kind of woman Liane was in the way she acts and the way Keith responds to it.

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4 hours ago, Affogato said:

On a reality level it is creepy how she fills the wife role so perfectly, you can see the kind of woman Liane was in the way she acts and the way Keith responds to it.

But is she really acting like Lianne? I never got the impression that Lianne was as honest, kind, or resourceful as Veronica is now.

Example: for whatever reason, Jake and Lianne never became that happily-ever-after married couple people thought they would be. They both married and had children with other people, but they obviously still had feelings for one another. Fine. They chose not to bite the bullet and leave their significant others in order to be with their one twu wuv (a la Jesse and Celine in ‘Before Sunset’). Instead, they lied and snuck around, still hurting everyone in their families.

Example: whatever was happening (or not happening) in Keith and Lianne’s marriage), it’s downright cruel to leave your spouse without some kind of an explanation, no matter how vague or inconclusive that explanation might be. Sure, Lianne was worried about Veronica’s safety, which is why she left town in the first place.  I just can’t see Veronica being that passive-aggressive with someone she loved, married, and had a child with.

--Sure the “old” Veronica stopped being friends with Yolanda Hamilton in kind of a shitty way, but she didn’t just stop speaking to her without an explanation. Her “you should have known better” line was classic mean-girl speak, but  Veronica made it clear that she was choosing Lilly--and why. 

 

Example: Lianne runs from her problems (Clarence Wiedon, Celeste/Camille Kane, Keith), while Veronica attacks most of her problems head-on (Clarence Wiedon, Jake Kane, trying to find Lilly’s killer, trying to find her missing mother). She has indeed been putting the Duncan issue and the rape issue on the back burner, possibly because she isn't emotionally ready to handle them.

I do see Veronica stepping into the role of taking care of her dad: cooking, for example, even if her culinary skills aren’t the best, or making sure he takes his pain pills. Did Lianne ever do these things for Keith? If so, I haven’t seen it yet. 

(If this is veering too far off-topic, I’ll take it elsewhere).

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1 hour ago, topanga said:

But is she really acting like Lianne? I never got the impression that Lianne was as honest, kind, or resourceful as Veronica is now.

Example: for whatever reason, Jake and Lianne never became that happily-ever-after married couple people thought they would be. They both married and had children with other people, but they obviously still had feelings for one another. Fine. They chose not to bite the bullet and leave their significant others in order to be with their one twu wuv (a la Jesse and Celine in ‘Before Sunset’). Instead, they lied and snuck around, still hurting everyone in their families.

Example: whatever was happening (or not happening) in Keith and Lianne’s marriage), it’s downright cruel to leave your spouse without some kind of an explanation, no matter how vague or inconclusive that explanation might be. Sure, Lianne was worried about Veronica’s safety, which is why she left town in the first place.  I just can’t see Veronica being that passive-aggressive with someone she loved, married, and had a child with.

--Sure the “old” Veronica stopped being friends with Yolanda Hamilton in kind of a shitty way, but she didn’t just stop speaking to her without an explanation. Her “you should have known better” line was classic mean-girl speak, but  Veronica made it clear that she was choosing Lilly--and why. 

 

Example: Lianne runs from her problems (Clarence Wiedon, Celeste/Camille Kane, Keith), while Veronica attacks most of her problems head-on (Clarence Wiedon, Jake Kane, trying to find Lilly’s killer, trying to find her missing mother). She has indeed been putting the Duncan issue and the rape issue on the back burner, possibly because she isn't emotionally ready to handle them.

I do see Veronica stepping into the role of taking care of her dad: cooking, for example, even if her culinary skills aren’t the best, or making sure he takes his pain pills. Did Lianne ever do these things for Keith? If so, I haven’t seen it yet. 

(If this is veering too far off-topic, I’ll take it elsewhere).

I agree with you.

Liane, Celeste and Lynn are all people who aren't as strong as their men and have no real independent life outside of what their men give them. Yes Lynn had a job once. Veronica, meg, mac are not like this in different ways. In fact I think that Logan can't be with Veronica for any length of time until he stops trying to put her on his mothers pedestal, where she'll be safe (because he couldn't protect mom, this time he'll get it right.) she tries but really, the pedestal is not for her  

 

all im saying is Veronica at this time is trying to replace her mother in the family structure to keep the family intact so that her mom can be plugged back in when she returns. But it isn't enough for her. Keith was probably ok with liane having no life but her family and kind of oblivious to his family. It's biting him  in some nonsexually embarrassing part of himself  

 

from this his we can intuit some things about their family dynamics.?

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Isn't Veronica making fun of Wallace's new mustache?  I don't think she's commenting on the hair on top of his head, I think it's his facial hair.  I can see doing that to any of my male friends trying to grow a mustache in high school.  I don't see it as racial.  There are a lot of other racial issues in this episode but I don't think that is one of them.

I think the Veronica/Keith issues raise flags because they do have more of a partnership/ spousal vibe.  If this was just a happy adjusted nuclear family I don't think the touching would even be noticed but they do have a different back and forth dynamic.  They are always crossing lines.  For me it's part of the reason I like the show, it's messy and interesting. 

I also thought this was one of the few times that Teddy Dunn was pretty good.  I thought the way he was just trying to be blank and not react to his friend acting crazy worked for the scene.  It's like they found a way to write to his strengths.

It's hard to take Anthony Anderson seriously as a Suge Knight character.  Maybe it worked better at the time.  I did like all the Veronica and Lili flashbacks though.

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3 hours ago, Clare said:

Isn't Veronica making fun of Wallace's new mustache?  I don't think she's commenting on the hair on top of his head, I think it's his facial hair.  I can see doing that to any of my male friends trying to grow a mustache in high school.  I don't see it as racial.  There are a lot of other racial issues in this episode but I don't think that is one of them.

I think the Veronica/Keith issues raise flags because they do have more of a partnership/ spousal vibe.  If this was just a happy adjusted nuclear family I don't think the touching would even be noticed but they do have a different back and forth dynamic.  They are always crossing lines.  For me it's part of the reason I like the show, it's messy and interesting. 

I also thought this was one of the few times that Teddy Dunn was pretty good.  I thought the way he was just trying to be blank and not react to his friend acting crazy worked for the scene.  It's like they found a way to write to his strengths.

It's hard to take Anthony Anderson seriously as a Suge Knight character.  Maybe it worked better at the time.  I did like all the Veronica and Lili flashbacks though.

Despite the somewhat clunky/cliche 'huge rap producer' dialogue, i found Anderson quite believable in this role..i liked him in this role..and i was used to him as a silly  OTT goof in the scary movie franchise..usually Rob Thomas is good at making shine actors..i don't know..he knows how to use their acting skills.

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11 hours ago, Clare said:

Isn't Veronica making fun of Wallace's new mustache?  I don't think she's commenting on the hair on top of his head, I think it's his facial hair. 

She's referring to his hair.  Previously his hair had been natural and loose and this episode is when he switches to braids.  Kristen is also looking at the top of Percy's head when she delivers her "must resist the urge to touch" line. 

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On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:03 PM, scarynikki12 said:

She's referring to his hair.  Previously his hair had been natural and loose and this episode is when he switches to braids.  Kristen is also looking at the top of Percy's head when she delivers her "must resist the urge to touch" line. 

Yeah bit wouldn't it be reasonable if Logan had  a  new brush cut that she would say the same thing? I'm not getting this?

Well Bone and his family, why does he insert them into white, snooty Neptune and then act surprised when they act white/snooty? Yeah, it was awkward and unrealistic and also weird. 

Edited by Affogato

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I'm thinking Veronica and Keith's relationship doesn't bother them snd I'm neither squicked or bored. 

The co dependence? is an issue, maybe, but nothing to do with backrubs. 

Now Aaron trying to hold Logan's hand and Logan not daring to pull away is horrifying. 

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Yeah, Veronica and Kieth's relation ship could be a bit...awkward at times. But overall, it wasn't a huge issue.

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This is one of those episodes I have almost no memory of having seen - it took half an hour of discussion before I had the faint recollection of the "nerdy son wants his dad's attention" plot and "Logan mouths off to his dad" bit. It's not memorably good or distinctly terrible - it's just beige.

I always got the impression that V was trying to take over Lianne's role as "mother" in regards to Keith (and probably doing a better job than Lianne ever did at it, too, given what we know of Lianne). And while they were way more "touchy feely" than I am with either of my parents, I figured it was just a desire to hold on to the one family member that hey had left.

[Minor point, but did anyone else get a weird audio distortion at about the 19.30 mark?]

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