S03.E01: The Battle Joined

[Athena]

Quote

After living through the Battle of Culloden, Jamie finds himself at the mercy of unforgiving British victors, until a connection from his past provides his only hope of survival. Meanwhile, a pregnant Claire attempts to adjust to life in the modern world of 1940s Boston – and life with Frank.

Reminder: This is the NO Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Book readers are discouraged from posting and liking in this thread.

[nara]

Since they decided to move Outlander to Sunday night, which I hate, I decided to watch the show earlier on On Demand.  The downside is that my fellow posters probably won't engage until hours  later.  :(

 

First of all, I loved the episode.  I enjoyed it much more than the Season 2 opener.

• The depiction of war was well done IMO.  The pileup of dead bodies was horrifying but realistic, given that battles were fought closely among the men, not at a distance.  The decision show brief glimpses of the war allowed us to understand the horror without showing too much gore.
• The executions were also chilling.  I am so glad that Lord Melton gave the men a soldier's death of firing squad rather than a criminal's death of hanging and that he would not shoot them lying down. Perhaps the first kind English soldier since Lieutenant Jeremy Foster.   I know that dead is dead, but dignity matters IMO.  
• I liked that Rupert got a major role in the episode and had a good on-screen farewell.  The way he provided leadership to the doomed Scots was really moving.  I confess that I teared up quite a bit.  Also glad that he and Jamie didn't leave in anger like they did last season.
• Since we didn't see Murtagh die, I assume he'll pop up again.  I guess he showed up just to remind us that the Fraser men were sent home.  I would have like to see Fergus when Jamie showed up in Lallybroch, but I hope he'll turn up in the future.
• I did not do a binge of last season, so I had forgotten about BPC's "Mark me" and how annoying it was.  I was a little surprised they didn't show BPC's escape (given that the theme song is based on that), but at least they had a line about the English unable to find him.
• I wonder if the decision to charge was the right one or if the one who advised waiting for the English to come to them was wiser?  I guess we'll never know...
• Speaking of English, was it just me who thought it strange that Rupert referred to "the British" and not "the English"?
• Battle between Jaime and BJR was awesome!  Once I realized that was him lying in Jamie, that freaked me out a little.   But I'm not sure we can assume that he died, despite the serious wound to the stomach, since we didn't see him with his eyes open (the one sure sign of death in TV and movies).  At first, I was a little surprised that BJR was a match for Jamie, given the difference in size, but I guess that BJR is a professional soldier.
• How much do I love Tobias Menzies?  Once again, a fantastic delivery in both roles.  But leave your American accent at home, Toby.  That was appalling!  :)
• I felt terrible for Frank Randall.  He really loves Claire and she was just kinda mean to him.  I'm glad she acknowledged that, and I was annoyed when the nurse  unknowingly screwed up that awesome rapprochement moment at the end.
• I wonder how much of Claire's anger at Frank is due to missing Jamie and the guilt of surviving when he "died at Culloden" vs. guilt for having abandoned Frank. Really, after the incident when she went to Craigh na Dun and was captured by the English, she never really gave another thought  to Frank.   And it appears that he never moved on from her.
• I think that Claire is going to create trouble for Frank with his boss.  Clearly, that man is a horrible, misogynistic blowhard--but you have to be tactful when dealing with the department head, especially when you're new to a country and a job.  And we know that Claire is not exactly known for keeping her mouth shut.  Luckily 1947 Boston  doesn't have witch trials, but perhaps she will run up against Joseph McCarthy (who happens to be a descendant of Father Bain) and be accused of being a Communist.
• Was I the only one who half expected that gas stove to explode, based on how much trouble Claire was having lighting it?
• I liked that Claire's neighbor reminded her that taking help from others is not a sign of weakness.  That was a good lesson for me too!  :)
• Okay, did doctors really put women under during childbirth? WTF!  How were they supposed to push?  I appreciate that they didn't forget about Claire's first child.  Some shows are awful about that type of continuity.  (I'm looking at you, Game of Thrones.)

Edited September 10, 2017 by nara
typo

[LoveLeigh]

I loved this. The show unfolds slowly and methodically. If BJR survives after that deep stab, he has 9 lives. 

So much time has passed, I need to be reminded. How did Jamie save that British soldier whose brother saved him from being shot? 

I also am not happy they moved the episodes to Sundays. 

[nara]

1 minute ago, Grashka said:

There was a huge conflict between Jamie and Claire when they were in Paris, caused by Claire wanting to spare Black Jack so Frank would be born down the line. She also managed to spoil a marriage between Mary and Alex, Black Jack's brother, because she wanted to ensure that Mary would marry Jonathan and their son - Frank's ancestor - would be born. IMO Frank was still on her mind even though she was in love with Jamie.

Good point.  I forgot that.  Clearly a rewatch of season 2 is in order.  I was thinking about how, after spending 8 episodes trying to get back to the future, she made the decision to stay in the past without any really thought of Frank.  (I'm still annoyed that there was not more angst in that decision.)

[toolazy]

3 hours ago, nara said:

 

• Okay, did doctors really put women under during childbirth? WTF!  How were they supposed to push?  I appreciate that they didn't forget about Claire's first child.  Some shows are awful about that type of continuity.  (I'm looking at you, Game of Thrones.)

 

My oldest niece was born in 1969 and my sister was put under for her birth so yes, they definitely did that.  I'm not sure about the mechanics but I imagine forceps were widely employed.

 

Did anyone notice the callback to 207 when Claire woke up asking for her baby and thinking it was dead?  Heartbreaking.

Edited September 10, 2017 by toolazy

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I'm with you @nara about watching early On Demand.  Actually, I nearly forgot that Outlander started up today.  I used to watch early OD last season also.  I like doing that much better than waiting until the evening showing, regardless of the day.  I haven't read all the other comments yet, but here we go: back for S3.  

• SO many bodies.  It sounds weird, to me, to say that was well done - but I think others know what I mean.  It was very realistic.  I would have liked to see The Bonnie Prince get it, but I do know historically that he survived.  
• Jamie seeing Claire walking through the battlefield all dressed in white amid the swirling snowflakes was very haunting.  
• I like Frank and Claire's brownstone.  It's nice.  Too bad his boss is a jerk.
• I'm feeling really sorry for Frank in this situation.  Probably an unpopular opinion: but I feel more sorry for Frank than Claire and Jamie put together.
• I'm going to really miss Rupert.     

[Juneau Gal]

Must admit, I cried my way through the whole episode. Truly an ending of most of the great characters we have known for so long. I'll miss Rupert and all the Highlanders. 

And Frank will ever and always break my heart. 

[Daisy]

wait what time does Outlander come on? i missed it?!

[Ziggy]

4 hours ago, toolazy said:

 

My oldest niece was born in 1969 and my sister was put under for her birth so yes, they definitely did that.  I'm not sure about the mechanics but I imagine forceps were widely employed.

 

Did anyone notice the callback to 207 when Claire woke up asking for her baby and thinking it was dead?  Heartbreaking.

My husband was born in 1964.  My mother-in-law mentioned being put under for his birth.  She said it didn't really make sense, as the most difficult part is actually the labor, not the delivery.  But that's what they did.

[Quickbeam]

Nearly my entire generation was born with "twilight sleep". Not that odd ( I'm 60). 

 

I loved this episode. And that is exactly what Culloden looks like. The war scenes were realistic. I really admire the costuming work especially for the 40s. It's spot on. 

[clack]

I have to say, the portrayal of a Harvard professor as a Republican -- even in 1948 -- threw me right out of the show.

[jcin617]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

wait what time does Outlander come on? i missed it?!

8PM EDT

[Daisy]

Just now, jcin617 said:

8PM EDT

thanks, i'll remember for next time. 

I did catch it though. I have to get my thoughts together. but Murtagh. Hope he's safe. 
:( Rupert.

[bmoore4026]

Wow.  Claire had more freedom as a woman back in the 1740s than she does in the 1940s

[ganesh]

I thought Frank got short shrift at the end of last season, since it was like, oh Frank died, I'm going through the stones. I think it's kind of weird that this season seems like (I'm unspoiled) leading back up to Claire going back through the stones, since we know she does. I do like Frank, and certainly don't mind seeing more of him. On the other hand, if the majority of the season is Claire pining for 1740s Scotland, I don't see how that is particularly entertaining. I do like the concept of a woman truly being in love with two men, and I have zero issues with that. I give Frank credit for trying, and I think Claire's wants to try too, but I'm not sure seeing them make it in late 1940s Boston is sustainable for a season narrative. 

 I really enjoyed the "Truman" scene though. Claire does not play. 

[clack]

The Harvard faculty of 1948 was politically split -- but between supporting Truman or Henry Wallace, ( the Bernie Sanders of his day), who was  running on the Progressive ticket -- and not between Truman and Dewey.

Also, the sneering, condescending sexism of the Dean didn't ring true. I don't doubt the sexism, but it would have come in a less heavy-handed form. The professor would have been charmed by a beautiful English woman and interested in her recent wartime service and in her opinions and impressions of the U.S.

That faculty scene was badly conceived and written.

[terrymct]

I liked the graphic reality portrayed for the battle and afterwards, as well.  I visited Culloden this spring, along with a number of other sites associated with this period of time.  The visits knocked any vestiges of romantic notions out of my head.  This was an ill conceived effort from the moment Charles Stuart left France.  There's a monument at a beautiful little bay where he landed in Scotland and from which he left.  It's a tall column with a statue of Charles on top.   There should be accompanying statues that show massive piles of dead Highlanders bodies adjacent to it.  That's what he accomplished along with hastening the destruction of the clan system.  Outlander did a good job of showing the waste of lives.  I'm really sad that all my favorite characters are either dead or MIA.  For me, the best parts of this show are the scenery, the costumes, the glimpses at the functioning of the Clan structure, and the Highland characters.   This episode closes the door on the Clans and most of the Highlanders.   I was really sad to see that go.  Maybe we'll get to see Gellis' jump back in time for some reason and the Leoch community can be shown again.

I was glad that Claire apologized to Frank at the end.  His only crime is not being Jamie and she was treating his horribly.

Speaking of various Randalls, Jack Randall was left looking fairly dead on the battlefield.  Yeah, but he looked pretty dead when he was squashed by the stampeding cattle, too.  Black Jack is one of the weaknesses of the show for me.  He's a mustache twirling villain without explained motivation with just some allusions to his relationship with the poncy Duke of Sandringham, but that's about it.  I have no doubt that he'll spring back up miraculously and try to rape either Jamie or Claire for no particular reason in a future episode.

Claire's treatment by the doctor and Frank's boss was a good demonstration of how women were often treated at that time.  Claire's reaction was anachronistic, though.  She's a product of that era, not current times and she reacted as if she was still a time traveler experiencing this for the first time.   A woman in her position would have pretty well known how she would be treated and not been surprised.   I think this is a set up for Claire to now go to medical school (we saw her as a doctor in a scene last season when her daughter was grown) and for her to change the system.  It was handled sloppily, though, and it's not as though her experience back in Jamie's era would have shown her that women can be treated better.  

Edited September 12, 2017 by terrymct

[Scarlett45]

44 minutes ago, clack said:

The Harvard faculty of 1948 was politically split -- but between supporting Truman or Henry Wallace, ( the Bernie Sanders of his day), who was  running on the Progressive ticket -- and not between Truman and Dewey.

Also, the sneering, condescending sexism of the Dean didn't ring true. I don't doubt the sexism, but it would have come in a less heavy-handed form. The professor would have been charmed by a beautiful English woman and interested in her recent wartime service and in her opinions and impressions of the U.S.

That faculty scene was badly conceived and written.

I disagree. Some men would've treated Claire with a "gentler hand" especially because she was pregnant, but when she outright disagreed with him the contempt showed through (despite the fact that she was polite). Also Claire wasn't her most charming, sociable self right now- she's heavily pregnant and grieving for Jaime, it was obvious she didn't really want to be there. Because the boss was an egocentric prick that probably annoyed him.

Many men were happy to praise all of the hard work women did during the war, but abruptly wanted them "back in their place" now that the war was won. Frank was certainly proud of Claire's accomplishments and expected her to have an opinion (even if he didn't agree), some of his peers shared that perspective but many didn't. 

[qtpye]

49 minutes ago, clack said:

The Harvard faculty of 1948 was politically split -- but between supporting Truman or Henry Wallace, ( the Bernie Sanders of his day), who was  running on the Progressive ticket -- and not between Truman and Dewey.

Also, the sneering, condescending sexism of the Dean didn't ring true. I don't doubt the sexism, but it would have come in a less heavy-handed form. The professor would have been charmed by a beautiful English woman and interested in her recent wartime service and in her opinions and impressions of the U.S.

That faculty scene was badly conceived and written.

 

19 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I liked the graphic reality portrayed for the battle and afterwards, as well.  I visited Culloden this spring, along with a number of other sites associated with this period of time.  The visits knocked any vestiges of romantic notions out of my head.  This was an ill conceived effort from the moment Charles Stuart left France.  There's a monument as a beautiful little bay where he landed in Scotland and from which he left.  It's a tall column with a statue of Charles on top.   There should be accompanying statues that show massive piles of dead Highlanders bodies adjacent to it.  That's what he accomplished along with hastening the destruction of the clan system.  Outlander did a good job of showing the waste of lives.  I'm really sad that all my favorite characters are either dead or MIA.  For me, the best parts of this show are the scenery, the costumes, the glimpses at the functioning of the Clan structure, and the Highland characters.   This episode closes the door on the Clans and most of the Highlanders.   I was really sad to see that go.  Maybe we'll get to see Gellis' jump back in time for some reason and the Leoch community can be shown again.

I was glad that Claire apologized to Frank at the end.  His only crime is not being Jamie and she was treating his horribly.

Speaking of various Randalls, Jack Randall was left looking fairly dead on the battlefield.  Yeah, he looked pretty dead when he was squashed by the stampeding cattle too.  Black Jack is one of the weaknesses of the show for me.  He's a mustache twirling villain without explained motivation with just some allusions to his relationship with the poncy Duke of Sandringham, but that's about it.  I have no doubt that he'll spring back up miraculously and try to rape either Jamie or Claire for no particular reason in a future episode.

Claire's treatment by the doctor and Frank's boss was a good demonstration of how women were often treated at that time.  Claire's reaction was anachronistic, though.  She's a product of that era, not current times and she reacted as if she was still a time traveler experiencing this for the first time.   A woman in her position would have pretty well known how she would be treated and not been surprised.   I think this is a set up for Claire to now go to medical school (we saw her as a doctor in a scene last season when her daughter was grown) and for her to change the system.  It was handled sloppily, though, and it's not as though her experience back in Jamie's era would have shown her that women can be treated better.  

I am conflicted about that scene.  Dr. Joyce Brothers was told to give up her place in medical, despite her amazing grades and test results, because men have to support families and she could just get married.  I think a Harvard Dean just recently said that women never will be good at math, though I do not remember the details of that incident.

On the other hand, men of a certain standing expected their wives to be cultured and educated. Being so disaproving of reading a newspaper a bit much.

I am also not a fan of the trope a woman loses control of her emotions and throws something heavy at a man's head and then they laugh about it.  

[Quickbeam]

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Dr. Joyce Brothers was told to give up her place in medical, despite her amazing grades and test results, because men have to support families and she could just get married.  

Joyce Brothers was not a medical doctor. She had a PhD in psychology.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, clack said:

That faculty scene was badly conceived and written.

I agree.  Personally, I think it's to set up this:

10 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Wow.  Claire had more freedom as a woman back in the 1740s than she does in the 1940s

in the viewers minds.  So that when the show catches up with the end of S2 and Claire goes back through the stones, the viewer reaction is supposed to be "Yay!"

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

Claire's treatment by the doctor and Frank's boss was a good demonstration of how women were often treated at that time.  Claire's reaction was anachronistic, though.  She's a product of that era, not current times and she reacted as if she was still a time traveler experiencing this for the first time.   A woman in her position would have pretty well known how she would be treated and not been surprised.   I think this is a set up for Claire to now go to medical school (we saw her as a doctor in a scene last season when her daughter was grown) and for her to change the system.  It was handled sloppily, though, and it's not as though her experience back in Jamie's era would have shown her that women can be treated better.  

1. True - and even with her combat nurse experience, she probably would have had similar experiences with all male doctors on the battlefield.  

2.  True again.  Or has she already forgotten all the misogynistic things Dougal, Collum, and the Duke of Sandringham among others used to say or do?  At least she's not in as much danger of being raped on a daily basis.

[qtpye]

7 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

Joyce Brothers was not a medical doctor. She had a PhD in psychology.

Then perhaps graduate school.   I feel that intelligent women were looked upon a little suspiciously then and some of that stil exists today.

I have seen boys get good grades and girls with good grades referred to as grade grubbers and brown nosers.

That being said something about Frank's jerk boss seems heavy handed.

[terrymct]

27 minutes ago, qtpye said:

That being said something about Frank's jerk boss seems heavy handed.

 

Frank's boss was cartoonish, carrying a whole bunch of stereotypes regarding his era, gender, and academia squarely on his shoulders.  

[clack]

If the head of the history department was meant to be representative, and not some random asshole weirdo, then in reality he would have been either a former Communist or democratic socialist. His current politics would have been democratic socialist (Wallace), or liberal cold warrior (Truman).

He would daily encounter many intelligent, opinionated women in his own classes, and as Radcliffe faculty. He might condescend to Claire as someone unfamiliar with American politics, but not because as a woman her political opinions would be worthless.

Frank might be a Truman supporter, but he would be too right-wing for Claire. She would support Wallace's pacifism.

The department head's snobbishness would manifest itself as being impressed by Claire's genteel Englishness, and his sexism would manifest itself by being impressed by her attractiveness. He would be flirting with her, not sneering at her.

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Joyce Brothers was not a medical doctor. She had a PhD in psychology.

I'm not sure that detracts from Qtype's point. 

[Quickbeam]

32 minutes ago, toolazy said:

I'm not sure that detracts from Qtype's point. 

Medical school is a whole lot different than a doctoral program in psychology. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Quickbeam

[taanja]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

I am conflicted about that scene.  Dr. Joyce Brothers was told to give up her place in medical, despite her amazing grades and test results, because men have to support families and she could just get married.  I think a Harvard Dean just recently said that women never will be good at math, though I do not remember the details of that incident.

On the other hand, men of a certain standing expected their wives to be cultured and educated. Being so disaproving of reading a newspaper a bit much.

I am also not a fan of the trope a woman loses control of her emotions and throws something heavy at a man's head and then they laugh about it.  

Well -- It was the Globe she was quoting from. It wasn't that she was quoting any old newspaper-- it was the Boston Globe-- very liberal. 

My mother was in the medical profession. She went to school out east in the early 1950's.  She dared to wear slacks one time to class and was sent home -- "Go home little lady and put on a proper dress" she was told. She was also told numerous times that women just didn't have the mental abilities to be good doctors. Yes. As women we have com e a long way (and still have further to go) we forget that our mother's and grandmother's paved the way and gave us rights that we now take for granted.

I liked the scene of the flying ashtray smashing against the wall. I truly felt Clair's frustration. Before that Claire had mentioned she wanted to become an American citizen and Frank basically dismissed her. Period.  He shot her down and that was the end of that. The "husband" spoke and the wife must listen.

[NorthstarATL]

15 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Wow.  Claire had more freedom as a woman back in the 1740s than she does in the 1940s

She was not in any physical danger in that room. That would be the key difference between the eras for me. I did chuckle at her initial attempts with the stove and the later solution. If she were cooking for Jamie, I imagined she'd find a way to upgrade the stove, and create something miraculous all while pregnant. Not to mention after reading about a Florida woman who delivered her own child during Irma, Claire seems not to be stepping up as much in the 1940s.

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Medical school is a whole lot different than a doctoral program in psychology. 

 

But the sentiment - women are taking jobs away from men who deserve them more - was pretty widespread.

[Daisy]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

 

I am also not a fan of the trope a woman loses control of her emotions and throws something heavy at a man's head and then they laugh about it.  

I didn't see them as "laughing" about it per se. that comment was like *(how I took it anyway) - I know i could have hurt you, and I do really need you. (not just because of this), and Frank, being Frank, was like - he understood. 

I always find that I am on everyone's side, but i also don't feel "bad" for any of them. like. Claire told Frank what the business was - and Frank told her what he expected. And I do think Claire is there because she loves Frank (not in love with him by any means now, but a Love is there, as pointed out, she was adamant that Frank "exists" and had a slight damage to her relationship with Jamie) - but she can't handle being intimate (of any kind) with him. and I do think that's okay. I also think it's okay that Frank is hurt by that. i think it's okay that they can sometimes hate each other because they were in this really crazy predicament). 

I also think Claire is legitimately mourning Jamie is twice dead to her (like even if he "survived" the attack, he's dead, but in her mind he's killed dead) - she's hormonal, and she doesn't want to be there. like she didn't 'choose' and I think had she chosen to go through the stones at the end of the second season - she'd be a bit more receptive to Frank's touch (etc).. and I think frank (does try to realise that) but he is all well, there is another man. 

Super complicated this. 

[ganesh]

Did she ever explain to Frank that he looks exactly like BJR? It's not Frank's fault, but she does have a legit issue there. 

[Fable]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Did she ever explain to Frank that he looks exactly like BJR? It's not Frank's fault, but she does have a legit issue there. 

How would that help things though?  If I was with someone who told me you look just like someone I loathed, I don't think it would make me feel better.  

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Did she ever explain to Frank that he looks exactly like BJR? It's not Frank's fault, but she does have a legit issue there. 

i think she really keeps the Scottish stuff really separate. Like Fable said - i don't think it helps. but i don't think it also makes a difference. like i mean we see them at the end kiss and say i love you (and I believe Claire means this, and it's not baby hormone fueled). And in her "Must make sure Frank exists" that never diminished her hatred for BJR. 

[nara]

8 hours ago, taanja said:

I liked the scene of the flying ashtray smashing against the wall. I truly felt Clair's frustration. Before that Claire had mentioned she wanted to become an American citizen and Frank basically dismissed her. Period.  He shot her down and that was the end of that. The "husband" spoke and the wife must listen.

I didn't get the impression that he prevented her from becoming a US citizen, just that he was hurt and offended that she wanted to do so.

[mjforty]

6 hours ago, ganesh said:

Did she ever explain to Frank that he looks exactly like BJR? It's not Frank's fault, but she does have a legit issue there. 

Don't they have an agreement not to talk about the past?  So the answer is probably "no."  Which leads to: 

I was glad that Claire apologized to Frank at the end.  His only crime is not being Jamie and she was treating his horribly.

There was probably some residual loathing to Frank on Claire's part due to his physical likeness to Randall.  Intellectually, she knows he's not the same person but, yeah, I bet it's hard not to flinch when the person who touches you looks like the sadist who beat you and raped and tortured your husband.  It's going to take a bit to distance yourself from that I bet.

[Daisy]

8 hours ago, nara said:

I didn't get the impression that he prevented her from becoming a US citizen, just that he was hurt and offended that she wanted to do so.

I don't get why he would be? they are going to live in America. Their child would be a US Citizen, so i mean Claire (and Frank) being American would let them be able to vote etc that would impact their child's life. it seemed practical. and for Claire it was part of her whole argument of "new fresh start." 

[taanja]

48 minutes ago, Daisy said:

I don't get why he would be? they are going to live in America. Their child would be a US Citizen, so i mean Claire (and Frank) being American would let them be able to vote etc that would impact their child's life. it seemed practical. and for Claire it was part of her whole argument of "new fresh start." 

That's how I saw it as well. And Frank shot her down. He said-- No! -- and that was the end of the conversation.

I watched the ep again last night and I am fascinated by Clair and Frank's relationship. Both actors are playing the angst beautifully. It rings true to life. Marriage is hard at the best of times but these two characters are in an impossible predicament. 

[Daisy]

5 minutes ago, taanja said:

That's how I saw it as well. And Frank shot her down. He said-- No! -- and that was the end of the conversation.

I watched the ep again last night and I am fascinated by Clair and Frank's relationship. Both actors are playing the angst beautifully. It rings true to life. Marriage is hard at the best of times but these two characters are in an impossible predicament. 

I know. that's why i am so intrigued by this whole thing and Catriona and Tobias are smacking it out of the park. 

[paulusar]

nara said:

"Speaking of English, was it just me who thought it strange that Rupert referred to "the British" and not "the English"?"

England and Scotland were one united country at this time. One side was Highland Catholics wanting to break away from mostly protestant Britain and install their own king. The British side included Scots. Of the army's 16 infantry battalions present, four were Scottish units and one was Irish.

Edited September 12, 2017 by paulusar

[PrettyDarkEyes]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

I don't get why he would be? they are going to live in America. Their child would be a US Citizen, so i mean Claire (and Frank) being American would let them be able to vote etc that would impact their child's life. it seemed practical. and for Claire it was part of her whole argument of "new fresh start." 

Frank made it sound like returning to England was a possibility - "my employment guarantees us residency in the US "  I took that to mean that he could give up the Harvard job and go elsewhere.

 

And to tack onto that - during Reverend Wakefield's memorial service, Claire introduces herself to Roger and states that she and Brianna had been staying with relatives in London.  Whose relatives would those be other than Frank's?  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

35 minutes ago, PrettyDarkEyes said:

And to tack onto that - during Reverend Wakefield's memorial service, Claire introduces herself to Roger and states that she and Brianna had been staying with relatives in London.  Whose relatives would those be other than Frank's?  

Why not Claire's?  She had an uncle who raised her.  Who's to say there weren't more uncles and aunts or cousins on either of her parent's side?  I don't think it was ever specified that Claire didn't have any other relatives, was it?

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why not Claire's?  She had an uncle who raised her.  Who's to say there weren't more uncles and aunts or cousins on either of her parent's side?  I don't think it was ever specified that Claire didn't have any other relatives, was it?

She also made a point in the first or second episode of season 1 to say that when being interrogated, stick to the truth as much as possible.  She tells Colum she was on her way to visiting relatives in France.  She gets caught here when he questions if they are her or her husband's relatives, but the general story about relatives might easily be true.

[nara]

12 hours ago, Daisy said:

I don't get why he would be? they are going to live in America. Their child would be a US Citizen, so i mean Claire (and Frank) being American would let them be able to vote etc that would impact their child's life. it seemed practical. and for Claire it was part of her whole argument of "new fresh start." 

That's the practical way of looking at it, but for many people, giving up the country of one's birth by changing citizenship is a much bigger deal.  It can feel like a betrayal of one's country, family, and history.

[Bort]

36 minutes ago, nara said:

That's the practical way of looking at it, but for many people, giving up the country of one's birth by changing citizenship is a much bigger deal.  It can feel like a betrayal of one's country, family, and history.

US and UK let you maintain dual citizenship. So Claire wouldn't be giving anything up. 

[Hyla]

14 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why not Claire's?  She had an uncle who raised her.  Who's to say there weren't more uncles and aunts or cousins on either of her parent's side?  I don't think it was ever specified that Claire didn't have any other relatives, was it?

The impression I got from the episode where Claire and Frank spontaneously decide to get married on the way to meet Frank's parents for the first time was that if they had gone with a more traditional wedding Claire would have had only friends on her side of the aisle. And that it had been thoughtful on Frank's part to suggest a type of ceremony that spared her that. I'd have to rewatch the episode to be sure of that though. Last season I just assumed they had been visiting Claire's in-laws in London and for Brienna's sake.

I'm so happy season three is here!

Just wondering - was anyone else surprised that Black Jack was killed off this episode? I thought for sure they were going to continue to (over)use him as a villain this season. They had made such a big deal about Claire whispering to him the date of his death and then there was that whole scene with Lord Lovett's seer saying she had seen one of her predictions reversed once when a fisherman's father had drilled holes in his son's fishing boat the day she had foretold he would die, and he had lived. I thought for sure they were going to make Claire regret having given that info to Randall. That he would instead choose to lie low that day and surprise everybody. I am glad he's dead, but I'm sorry those beautiful sunsets during the days of shooting inspired the final battle to the death to be so strangely shot. I would had preferred a different tone to Jamie's finally ending the monster of his and so many other's nightmares. (Now that he's back at Lally Broach I hope there is a scene where he gifts the story of that death to young Fergus!)

I also wondered about the wound Jamie received at Culloden.  He seemed to be touching his leg so maybe it just means he and Ian will both be hobbling around their estate. But, it also seemed to oddly mirror the injury Jamie had given to Randall during their duel. It made me wonder if the series of tragedies that make up the character's life would be compounded by having his ability to father children compromised. Which would make it all the more poignant when he's inevitably reunited with Claire and finds out he has a daughter.

This season might be difficult to get through if it's all sad pining for what was lost.

[terrymct]

6 hours ago, Hyla said:

Just wondering - was anyone else surprised that Black Jack was killed off this episode? I thought for sure they were going to continue to (over)use him as a villain this season. They had made such a big deal about Claire whispering to him the date of his death and then there was that whole scene with Lord Lovett's seer saying she had seen one of her predictions reversed once when a fisherman's father had drilled holes in his son's fishing boat the day she had foretold he would die, and he had lived. I thought for sure they were going to make Claire regret having given that info to Randall. That he would instead choose to lie low that day and surprise everybody. I am glad he's dead, but I'm sorry those beautiful sunsets during the days of shooting inspired the final battle to the death to be so strangely shot. I would had preferred a different tone to Jamie's finally ending the monster of his and so many other's nightmares. (Now that he's back at Lally Broach I hope there is a scene where he gifts the story of that death to young Fergus!)

 

Don't count Black Jack as dead yet.  He survived being crushed by cattle and could still make another miraculous recovery if the writers need him to jump out of a closet to try and rape someone.

[ganesh]

I never thought for a second that Black Jack is dead. 

[FnkyChkn34]

13 hours ago, kariyaki said:

US and UK let you maintain dual citizenship. So Claire wouldn't be giving anything up. 

Officially, the US does not recognize dual citizenship.  But there also isn't actually a law against it, so it's a gray area where most people can have "dual citizenship."

[paulusar]

16 hours ago, kariyaki said:

US and UK let you maintain dual citizenship. So Claire wouldn't be giving anything up. 

They do now but not in 1948. She would have had to renounce British citizenship.

3 hours ago, terrymct said:

 

Don't count Black Jack as dead yet.  He survived being crushed by cattle and could still make another miraculous recovery if the writers need him to jump out of a closet to try and rape someone.

He was dead on top of Jamie.

[Bort]

26 minutes ago, paulusar said:

They do now but not in 1948. She would have had to renounce British citizenship.

They did in 1948. That very year, in fact, with the British Nationality Act of 1948. Claire picked a good year to ask for U.S. citizenship.