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SilverStormm

S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

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1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I actually agree with this. She pretty much explained to the audience that this whole thing made no sense. There really was no reason to even meet with her, her army in comparison to Danys would make barely a ripple .  That's what's so infuriating about this plot point, is that Dany on her own had a pretty good army to fight the NK , especially with the northern alliance... all this parlay did was WEAKEN her considerably by the loss of her dragon and allow Cersei, who by this point really had NO chance, a way to grow stronger .

Exactly! My point all along that the wight hunt was the dumbest plot EVAH! Dany could have flown with Jon up north and seen the NK for herself. This way all her dragons would be alive now. She could have then destoryed Cersei and Red Keep, swept up all the southern lords and Lannister bannermen and gone north. She would have crushed the NK and his army in no time. Story over done and dusted. Instead, she has lost a dragon, her allies, and her army has been weaken by unnecessary  losses. No doubt this was why the writers played out the story like this, to weaken Dany.  I bet after she and Jon have defeated the NK, they barely have half of the troops that Cersei does.

Edited by SimoneS
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3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Aside from drama, is there any reason why Jon HAS to know he's Aegon Targaryean?  This does not improve his situation in any way.  Dany's not going to just step aside because he's higher in the line of succession, Jon himself will probably be dismayed at having slept with his aunt, and he 's never expressed an interest in ruling in the first place.  He's already committed to fighting the NK.  He was chosen to be KITN because he's Ned's kid - once the Northerners find out he's actually a Targaryean then all bets are off.  This episode also proved he's far too honest (and dumb!) to keep this sort of thing quiet regardless of the consequences. 

I think his parentage being revealed might have something to do with someone having the idea to make him ride Rhaegal. I'm not sure that anyone would come up with such a crazy notion with a non-Targ. He doesn't need to be the legitimate son of Rhaegar in order to do that, so probably it'll play out on another level. I really don't think that the Iron Throne will matter much, so I can't imagine why it would count.

Maybe it will play on a personal level for Jon. Learning he's legitimate will certainly rock his world. I wonder if Theon will say to him "You're a Targaryen and you're a Stark" as a pep talk, because this part of their conversation sounded like foreshadowing.

In the original outline, the idea of incest tormented Jon and Arya. Maybe it will be the source a dilemma on Jon's part. I sincerely can't imagine that Daenerys, who expected to marry her brother, will be troubled in the least. Every big house has some aunt/nephew or uncle/niece rather close in the family tree IIRC, so why the big sudden deal?

My impossible wish is that no one, bar a close circle, ever learns of Jon's parentage. I would love it if Arya said to him: "I lost two brothers, I won't lose another one so you will bloody stay a Stark/Snow and marry your very distant relative by Targaryen standards".  If the wheel is broken, and Jon rules, he might be a symbol of a bastard whose merit brought him on top, and being the legitimate heir might dent this image no matter how true it is.

2 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Why couldn't Lyanna just reach out via e-raven to Ned that she wasn't kidnapped or raped or whatevered? Wouldn't that have put the kibosh on Robert's Rebellion?

I had a theory that Lyanna for some reason didn't want to/couldn't involve her family directly and sent a raven to explain the facts around her marriage not to Winterfell, but to Riverrun where Brandon was supposed to go and marry Catelyn. And Littlefinger who was still there at the time stole it. It would have explained how he obviously knew about Rhaegar not kidnapping and raping Lyanna, whereas not knowing about a child -because otherwise, he'd have added two and two about Jon Snow in a heartbeat and used it to destroy Ned via Robert's wrath.

Of course, his late yet timely death kinds of sinks this theory, LOL.

If you read the Accursed Kings, there's a secret marriage that people can't prove was legit because the priest who celebrated it died, and it causes a tragic course of events for the people involved. I've always thought there was something like this about the Rhaegar/Lyanna union. Maybe in S8 we will learn more details. (Seriously, why Dorne?)

1 hour ago, Bryndza said:

Was that Thoros we saw in the front line of the walkers?

There was a zombie who did look very much like him, and I had to remind myself that they burned Thoros' body.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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14 hours ago, Inquirer said:

It looks like they went with Sansa and Arya's two scenes in 7x06 being an act for any of LF's spies or even LF himself...remember, he was watching Arya take the letter from the shadows completely undetected, Sansa and Arya may have known he could be watching anywhere at anytime, especially if they spoke with Bran about it earlier in an absolutely secured location.  The leaked script outline had more ambiguity about it with how it was worded, but I'm unsure if anything really changed or if that was just the wording being deliberately misleading due to describing the scenes exactly how they appear to be.  Bottom line: I think the Arya vs. Sansa scenes last episode were meant to place the audience in LF (or his spies') position and come to the same conclusions, to make the truth even more of a surprise.

This is boosted by "Inside the Episode" where one of the showrunners said they were building what "seemed like a real rift between them".

Also, the original outline had Cersei suffering a miscarriage toward the end of the episode.  That idea was either axed outright, or it's been moved to Season 8.

Nah, the rift was real, they wouldn't collaborate until Sansa returned the dagger sometime off screen and they both go see Bran, who let's Arya in on the information.

If they wanted us to be LF, they would have shown us LF through a peep hole or glass on a door then we be seeing and hearing what he did.

That's why the LF playing Arya worked, we were with him.

14 hours ago, Francie said:

Anyone else notice that both Sansa and Jaime said they were slow learners this season?  

I'm not sure what to make of that. 

I wouldn't stress, they both shown they aren't.

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20 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Oh, I agree, it was odd, especially because he unsheathed the sword. I don't know why he'd have done that if he was not going to kill Jaime then and there.

DRAMA!!!

I can imagine the DVD commentary with D&D: "Look at the disbelief on Jaime's face when the Mountain did that!!!"

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15 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

My Season 8 predictions are that Dany is preggers with Jon's kid and Jon dies defeating the Night King. He was resurrected with the destiny of killing NK and extending the Targ line. Gendry will be legitimized and marry Sansa for the Baratheon line returning. The only sad thing I'm seeing is that the Stark name will die out unless Bran has a kid. Robb and Rickon's deaths wiped them out. 

Oh I do hope not.  That's a little too much LoTR, Arwen being totally fine with Aragorn dead and herself a mortal, just because there's a little ArwAragorn running around.  It's also fairly conventional, no?  And Martin is all about subverting tropes (though I don't think he subverts as much as he thinks he does).

I more see the ending with Jon brooding on the IT like Conan at the end of Conan: The Barbarian.  Maybe holding a little DanAegon along with his sword (I mean, she's got to get up the stuff now, it's been telegraphed to the far Hebrides and back at this point).  

Perhaps the "bittersweet" bit is the end of the Stark line.  I can't see Arya agreeing to have children to continue it, but maybe, maybe.  

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I haven't seen anyone mention so far that Tyrion flat-out admits that he's been holding Dany back from destroying the Red Keep for the sake of his family, not just because it would make Dany look bad in the eyes of History and Public Relations - which ultimately cost his queen two allies. He really is not a very good Hand to Dany.

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I have a feeling Euron will take that massive army of the Golden company and just take Kings Landing himself. That wouldn't surprise me in the least if He betrays Cersei and crowns himself King. It makes more sense for him to conquer westeros  while Dany and Co are fighting the WW...leaving him in a position to either try to marry Dany and Her Dragons, or try to kill Danny and take her dragons. Seriously with Jaime gone there is really no one in Kings Landing who loves or really cares about Cersei. She's placing a lot of trust in the Iron Born who are known to be traitors .

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14 hours ago, mac123x said:

Where were Drogon and Rhaegal during Jon and Dany's sexy-time cruise north?

 

One horribly minor nitpick -- I hate the establishing shot of the Love Boat as it's sailing -- the seas are way too calm. 

A false sense of tranquility, dead things in the water will soon arrive.

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Jaime: we can't win against her dragons and armies!

Cersei: She has one less dragon.

 

which was another huh? moment for me-- Cersei assumes a dragon was killed? where does she get that? wouldn't it be just as logical to assume Dany left one at home because after the  Spoils of War, she knows they have a weapon for killing/wounding dragons and she's safeguarding one of them?

 

Quote

I have a feeling Euron will take that massive army of the Golden company and just take Kings Landing himself.

except they're sell swords-- and he's not the one paying.

Edited by sacrebleu
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Just now, Misplaced said:

Oh I do hope not.  That's a little too much LoTR, Arwen being totally fine with Aragorn dead and herself a mortal, just because there's a little ArwAragorn running around.  It's also fairly conventional, no?  And Martin is all about subverting tropes (though I don't think he subverts as much as he thinks he does).

 

Oh, I agree but someone pointed out that the show is separate from the books in that D&D will tweak it to do their ending. GRRM has gone on record saying that he's doing his thing in the books so maybe it won't be as conventional.

I can definitely see the bittersweet being that the Stark line dies out but as someone else posted that Jon's children could possibly choose to take the Stark name and continue the line through Lyanna via him. But given that I think Jon will die and Bran won't have children, and it seems doubtful Arya would have children, Sansa is basically the last of the Starks and any children she has (I'm betting on Gendry) would be of her husband's house. Unless Sansa puts her foot down and breaks tradition and says any child of mine is a Stark in blood and name. Deal with it.

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43 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Jon's unfailing sense of honor is consistent throughout the whole series. 

That Halfhand would like a word with you.  I know, Qhorin was gonna be killed anyway so John was showing him a bit of kindness, but so was that peasant guy.  Jon is capable of lying, if not comfortable with it or good at it. 

 

I honestly see no other deal that Tyrion should have offered than this: tell Jamie to bundle up Cercei in a rug and take her back to Casterly Rock.  They'll be allowed enough staff to fend off the barbarians and cook but no longer play a part in governing the realm.  You have 1 day to comply.  In one day and one minute, the Red Keep will melt around you from dragon fire.  

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I have to add that I just can't with Theon. All I feel is annoyance and impatience. I think that his story is done, but the writers keep stringing it out. The scene with Jon was so predictable that I rolled my eyes. Surely, the show could have given it a miss and just go with the fight on the beach. 

Edited by SimoneS
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5 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

which was another huh? moment for me-- Cersei assumes a dragon was killed? where does she get that? wouldn't it be just as logical to assume Dany left one at home because after the  Spoils of War, she knows they have a weapon for killing/wounding dragons and she's safeguarding one of them?

Jamie brought up alternate explanations for the missing dragon, such as that it could be guarding Dany's fleet.  Cersei, (correctly) assumed that since Dany brought her Unsullied and Dathraki to flex her muscles with a huge show of force, something must have happened to the 3rd dragon, or she would have brought it as well.

BTW, as Stainnis and now Davos would remind us, Dany now has fewer dragons, not less. :)

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32 minutes ago, screamin said:

I haven't seen anyone mention so far that Tyrion flat-out admits that he's been holding Dany back from destroying the Red Keep for the sake of his family, not just because it would make Dany look bad in the eyes of History and Public Relations - which ultimately cost his queen two allies. He really is not a very good Hand to Dany.

He's a good hand. Just bad at separating business from personal. I still think the Red Keep was more about the people, but at that moment it was better  to emphasize the benefit to Cersei.

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11 hours ago, loki567 said:

I don't want to get too overwhelmingly negative but the sub-par plotting desperately makes me want the remaining books even more now. I do not want this show to have final say on GRRM's legacy. 

Favorite scene was Theon and Jon. Considering he's been such an afterthought this season and really his entire storyline was stolen by Sansa and Theon, a heroic effect by Alfie Allen to give the character the respect that he deserves. 

I never take the Jon/Sansa theories too seriously but I have to admit that I hmmed at the first time a potential Jon/Dany marriage is mentioned is a Sansa scene. Why? Feels like they're framing the final season with Jon having to choose between being a Targaryen or being a Stark. Dany is naturally one choice and Sansa might be the other.

Either way, they're still foreshadowing Northern unrest with Jon/Dany alliance and Sansa arguably having more sway with the North than Jon, so it's going to be a big issue in season eight. 

See, this will piss me off.  Jon coming back with Dany is exactly why he left in the first place, to forge an alliance and to get help in the war with the dead. The north doesn't have the numbers without the dragon queen's army. If Sansa (and the north as a whole) falls back on being stupid and petty because Jon bent the knee, they ALL deserve to be fucking wights, and Jon and Dany should leave them to their fates.

Edited by taurusrose · Reason: Correct typo
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Someone posted that genetic issues on the show don't matter. But isn't Joffrey, Aerys, and Viserys' madness supposed to be connected to them being incestuous offspring? Or that just in the books?

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9 hours ago, loki567 said:

I don't want to get too overwhelmingly negative but the sub-par plotting desperately makes me want the remaining books even more now. I do not want this show to have final say on GRRM's legacy. 

GRRM doesn't seem to care that the show will have the final say on his legacy and he has nobody to blame but himself.  This is likely the only ending we are going to get and I'm fine with that.  I've enjoyed the show (although the books are always better) and I'm glad we're going to get an ending, even if it differs from a book series that GRRM will likely never finish.

GRRM's last two books were not to the level of the first three so who knows how good the final two (or three books) will be if they ever get written.

Speaking of the books, in them Catelyn admits to herself that Bran is her favorite.  So it's fitting that Bran helped take Littlefinger down.

It would be funny if Jaime arrives North to find that Bronn has arrived already.  Without Jaime around, Bronn would be insane to keep hanging around King's Landing.  Cersei sure as hell isn't going to give him any gold or a castle and Bronn would know that she would likely have him killed.

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8 minutes ago, henripootel said:

That Halfhand would like a word with you.  I know, Qhorin was gonna be killed anyway so John was showing him a bit of kindness, but so was that peasant guy.  Jon is capable of lying, if not comfortable with it or good at it. 

 

I honestly see no other deal that Tyrion should have offered than this: tell Jamie to bundle up Cercei in a rug and take her back to Casterly Rock.  They'll be allowed enough staff to fend off the barbarians and cook but no longer play a part in governing the realm.  You have 1 day to comply.  In one day and one minute, the Red Keep will melt around you from dragon fire.  

I believe Halfhand wanted Jon to kill him.  He knew the wildlings would never let him live and he wanted Jon to be the one to kill him, so that Jon would gain the trust of the wildlings so he could infiltrate them.  

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6 minutes ago, henripootel said:

That Halfhand would like a word with you.  I know, Qhorin was gonna be killed anyway so John was showing him a bit of kindness, but so was that peasant guy.  Jon is capable of lying, if not comfortable with it or good at it. 

 

I honestly see no other deal that Tyrion should have offered than this: tell Jamie to bundle up Cercei in a rug and take her back to Casterly Rock.  They'll be allowed enough staff to fend off the barbarians and cook but no longer play a part in governing the realm.  You have 1 day to comply.  In one day and one minute, the Red Keep will melt around you from dragon fire.  

Good point about HalfHand. Jon was reluctant to kill him even if it meant convincing the wildlings, and Qhorin had to attack him and provoke Jon's anger to get him to follow through. 

Lena Heady is a great actress who is much beloved by D& D. I love to hate Cersei but I want her to die soon. I'm having an ominous feeling that she will remain on her throne at the end while all the "good guys" who are trying to save the world die so she that can.  If that happens I'll throw a book or 5 at the TV or maybe light them on fire. That would not be a bitter sweet ending. 

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12 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

See, this will piss me off.  Jon coming back with Dany is exactly why he left in the first place, to forge an alliance and to get help in the war with the dead. The north doesn't have the numbers without the dragon wueen's army. If Sansa (and the north as a whole) falls back on being stupid and petty because Jon bent the knee, they ALL deserve to be fucking wights, and Jon and Dany should leave them to their fates.

They sent him to forge an alliance or get dragonglass,  not become her subject by bending the knee.

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2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I believe Halfhand wanted Jon to kill him.  He knew the wildlings would never let him live and he wanted Jon to be the one to kill him, so that Jon would gain the trust of the wildlings so he could infiltrate them.  

No belief necessary - Qhorin flat out said this, and it was obvious from the context.  I was just countering the idea that Jon is incapable of doing a single thing that even might be interpreted as 'dishonorable'.  Jon did a hard thing when he needed to, he's clearly capable of shutting the hell up in front of an enemy.  

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14 hours ago, doram said:

I had to do a double take to realise that you're obviously referring to show Tyrion here. 

And even show Tyrion STRANGLED is girlfriend. 

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29 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Nah, the rift was real, they wouldn't collaborate until Sansa returned the dagger sometime off screen and they both go see Bran, who let's Arya in on the information.

If they wanted us to be LF, they would have shown us LF through a peep hole or glass on a door then we be seeing and hearing what he did.

That's why the LF playing Arya worked, we were with him.

I wouldn't stress, they both shown they aren't.

They both learn, but they do sometimes learn slowly.  I think Jaime's comment was partly a reference to his dyslexia, which made it very difficult for him to learn to read.  It has also taken him about 40 years to learn what an irredeemable monster Cersei is.  

Sansa also learned some things slowly.  She held on to her fantasies about being happily married to Joffrey too long, uttering my favorite line of the series, "I don't want someone brave and gentle and strong.  I want HIM!".  She eventually learned, but it took a while.  She also trusted LF for a while, but eventually learned.  

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Perhaps this has already been addressed, but I got a bit nervous when Cercei stormed out of the Dragon Pit and everyone else just kind of lingered around.  Remember what she did the last time all her enemies were in one place?

 

I know the show-runners wouldn't do that because a) repetitive and b) too few main characters left to slaughter a whole bunch of them at once.  I would have liked someone to show a bit of caution though.  Tyrion:  "Bronn, Podrick, before you go off drinking and whoring together, would you mind checking the basement for wildfire timebombs?  Thanks."

27 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

DRAMA!!!

I can imagine the DVD commentary with D&D: "Look at the disbelief on Jaime's face when the Mountain did that!!!"

I listened to the DVD commentaries on the last season and they were awful.  Seriously, S06E10 commentary track had Heady and Dinklage (who hadn't bothered to watch the episode before so didn't know what was going on) and D&D (who spent most of the track talking about restaurants they'd been to in Spain).  I couldn't have gotten a bigger "yeah, we've checked out so hard, and are busy thinking about our next career moves" if they'd said that verbatim.   [/rant]

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6 hours ago, stagmania said:

Wait, this is not correct. Jon did swear an oath to her, as the show has reiterated multiple times-in their scene on the boat, in his letter to Sansa, and again in front of all the rulers of Westeros. Just because they didn't do a scene with a formal ceremony doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's called exposition and it's a tool used to avoid repetitive or unnecessary scenes. 

Bend the knee. The one thing that was reiterated over and over from their first meeting. The one thing Dany burned other Lords for not doing...

...just happened off screen?

I don't buy it. Something is suspicious about his behavior since he arrived on Dragonstone. He knows how oaths of fealty work. He asked the Karstarks to bend the knee in a formal ceremony in Episode 1. If he "takes his oaths seriously," as he says he does, we would have seen it formally on screen. 

Telling Sansa he did it could be his way of triggering a Northern revolt and installing Sansa as queen. That way he can act unilaterally while keeping a Stark that is loyal to him in Winterfell.

"I know Ned's Stark's son will be true to his word" - are you sure about that Cersei? Especially when we, the audience, know that he's not Ned Stark's son?

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17 minutes ago, doram said:

Jon refusing to lie to Cersei is exactly the same play when he refused to bend the knee to Dany earlier. Either way, he's prioritising his honor above the Fate of Humanity. So it's really amusing for me to observe how differently a lot of people are reacting to these two identical situations. When he was refusing Dany, there were a 1001 logical excuses for why he was right to do so. Now that he's refusing Cersei, he's an idiot who's doomed mankind.

He was an idiot in that situation too. He couldn't even get the dragon glass until tyrion pulled it out of him. 

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22 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

See, this will piss me off.  Jon coming back with Dany is exactly why he left in the first place, to forge an alliance and to get help in the war with the dead. The north doesn't have the numbers without the dragon wueen's army. If Sansa (and the north as a whole) falls back on being stupid and petty because Jon bent the knee, they ALL deserve to be fucking wights, and Jon and Dany should leave them to their fates.

Honestly though, other than Lyanna Mormont, the northern lords on the show have absolutely no loyalty. They abandoned the Starks and refused to called to arms, then they were quick to turn on Jon. They clearly don't know what it means to be subjects and that loyalty goes both ways, probably because Jon hasn't brought the hammer down on them as yet. Bet that all changes now that he has pledged his oath to Dany. With any luck, most of them are killed so that Dany and Jon can replace them. 

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1 hour ago, Miles said:

There was no indication that Bran crossing the wall did anything to it's enchantments. That's just a half baked fan theory.

Also I'm pretty sure even throwing a ton of stuff at the wall won't do anything to it's enchantments.

It's really not. The Night King was able to breach the enchantments of the cave of the previous three eyed Raven, which the Children had protected, because Bran let the Night King touch him. Textually there's not much more explaining what caused the enchantments of the the Wall to fall.

I never suggested that simple brute force was going to do anything to the enchantments. I was theorizing how the Night King might have breached the Wall without a dragon assuming the enchantments were down. Regardless, he seemed to have been planning to have them cross on the water once the water froze over, avoiding the Wall altogether.

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7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Cersei was not impressed by the dragons at all. I have to hand it to her. She showed zero emotion when she saw Drogon, and I thought the whole thing was lame tbh. I get the show of power, but this is something that was not really needed. Cersei knows Dany has three dragons, now she knows she's got only two left.

Jorah's reaction to Dany taking Jon's advice was funny. 

I disagree. She was impressed and pissed. The woman she tried to reduce to nothing was young, beautiful and poised. In addition, Dany stole Cersei's thunder by arriving late (on a magnificent beast whose behavior pretty much dared any of them to try anything). She was not rattled when Cersei practically growled  they'd been waiting a while and resisted all of Cersei's petty attempts to get a rise out of her. For the moment, Cersei is sitting on the IT, but Dany showed herself to be every inch the queen.

I do agree that Jorah needs to give it a rest.

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43 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

 

I wouldn't stress, they both shown they aren't.

Not stressed. My ears perked up. 

The thought I wondered was whether this was the Henry VII and Elizabeth of York alliance that finally ended the Stark/Lannister feud.

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5 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

"I know Ned's Stark's son will be true to his word" - are you sure about that Cersei? Especially when we, the audience, know that he's not Ned Stark's son?

He was raised by Ned Stark, he might not be his son biologically but for all other intents and purposes he is. He is not running a game on Dany, not only is it against his honour, he's just not that cunning.

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Did anyone else catch Bronn telling Jamie he can't get used to being called "Lord?" Is he a Lord because he's Ser Bronn of the Blackwater? Or did Jamie give him a new title after the recent battle where Bronn saved him from the dragon fire? That was an interesting little throwaway line - I thought it might have been meant to indicate Bronn had finally been rewarded with the castle and title he sought. What happened to Bronn's wife?

I thought Littlefinger's death was satisfying but the build-up to it was not. The episodes leading up to this felt like the writers were jerking us around and deliberately leading us down a path they knew they were going to pivot away from at the eleventh hour. It would have been so much better if Sansa and Arya were just playing a long con with Littlefinger instead of making it look like they were falling for his crap. The writers were content to just fool the audience and that leaves me frustrated. I feel like we missed the scene where Arya and Sansa finally got together and compared notes.

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I'm confused about Bran making it a point to call Jon a Sand. I know it is the bastard name in Dorne. But everyone knew Jon was not born in the North. Were they ok with Snow because they didn't know where in the South he was born? Or the writers just needed a lead in for the true Targ reveal?

I think Jon was a Snow because his "father" was a Northern Lord. Typically you are born wherever your parents live at the time, so the practice of naming northern bastards "Snow" doesn't specifically require those bastards to be born within the realm of the North, but in a more general way, born "of" the North. That still doesn't explain why Bran though he was really a Sand though - I'm not sure what Targaryen bastards are called. What do they call bastards born in Kings Landing? 

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16 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I think Jon and Dany have chemistry - now that is unpopular opinion for sure.

I agree, I thought that the scene where Jon goes to her and looks at her almost resignedly (he couldn't fight the attraction and stopped trying) was fantastic, romantic, sexy, I didn't need it to be any longer. The fact that they are blood related is creepy to modern eyes, but they are the same age, never knew one another, yada, yada, yada. It certainly sets up a tough dilemma for the last season.

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Qyburn picking up the wight's arm in utter fascination has got to be some foreshadowing. In Season 8 he'll probably develop some kind of defense made of fire and dragonstone that Cersei will unleash (but it won't be enough!). 

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7 minutes ago, Francie said:

Not stressed. My ears perked up. 

The thought I wondered was whether this was the Henry VII and Elizabeth of York alliance that finally ended the Stark/Lannister feud.

Yeah, I thought that with last week's show.

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36 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

See, this will piss me off.  Jon coming back with Dany is exactly why he left in the first place, to forge an alliance and to get help in the war with the dead. The north doesn't have the numbers without the dragon wueen's army. If Sansa (and the north as a whole) falls back on being stupid and petty because Jon bent the knee, they ALL deserve to be fucking wights, and Jon and Dany should leave them to their fates.

Thank you! I won't take away from Sansa that she's a good administrator, but the idea that she is more worthy to rule the North when Jon has shed blood by the gallon in the defense of the people is really offensive to me. He didn't leave Winterfell to take a long holiday in Dorne, sipping wine while Sansa slaves away. He made an alliance pact with a powerful ally and on terms most favorable to the North. He brought word to the southern lands about the threat that the North is facing, nearly losing his life in order to secure the physical evidence. He has served the North very capably. 

And given how long it took for Sansa to recognize that Littlefinger was manipulating her against her family before she dealt with him, and even then, she didn't dirty her hands to do it.  I don't see why she deserves the power more than Jon does. The moment that Sansa gets out from behind her high table and puts herself physically on the line for her people, my opinion may change. But not before then.

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21 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Bend the knee. The one thing that was reiterated over and over from their first meeting. The one thing Dany burned other Lords for not doing...

...just happened off screen?

I don't buy it. Something is suspicious about his behavior since he arrived on Dragonstone. He knows how oaths of fealty work. He asked the Karstarks to bend the knee in a formal ceremony in Episode 1. If he "takes his oaths seriously," as he says he does, we would have seen it formally on screen. 

Telling Sansa he did it could be his way of triggering a Northern revolt and installing Sansa as queen. That way he can act unilaterally while keeping a Stark that is loyal to him in Winterfell.

"I know Ned's Stark's son will be true to his word" - are you sure about that Cersei? Especially when we, the audience, know that he's not Ned Stark's son?

Jon's onscreen "bending of the knee" was at the end of 706.  When he was lying in bed, on the ship, recovering from his injuries, he called her "Dany".  When she mentioned that her brother was the last one to call her that and he wasn't good company to be in he said, "How about, 'My Queen'"?.  He then said, "I'd bend the knee, but..." alluding to the fact that he was physically unable to at that moment.  Dany ask him what about those who swore allegiance to Jon. He replied that they would come to see her for who she is.

He may or may not have physically bent the knee, later,  when he felt better, but the bed scene was a clear submission to Danerys as Queen.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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14 hours ago, doram said:

But it still begs the question of how Sansa & Arya led up to this. Why it was even necessary? 

And bringing up the murder of Lysa Arryn ---- wasn't Sansa's testimony what got him off that murder in the first place? ::head-desk::

And since Sansa's always known about Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn... again - what was the point of SansaryaBowl???

Lysa sent Sansa and SR away and she mentions I gave my husband those drops...... etc, that was the night he married her to shut her up.

On the day she tried to kill Sansa, she said see what happens when people come between me and Pyter and she names, her father, her husband, her sister etc.

That's how I remember it in show, in book yeah she said those things while Sansa was in shock, just before " Only Cat"

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Why doesn't Sam think he's a good man? Like he's one of the fundamentally good guys on the show and in he books. And Bran was almost normal with him. 

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17 minutes ago, Francie said:

Not stressed. My ears perked up. 

The thought I wondered was whether this was the Henry VII and Elizabeth of York alliance that finally ended the Stark/Lannister feud.

So are you suggesting a Jaime/Sansa marriage?

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22 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

"I know Ned's Stark's son will be true to his word" - are you sure about that Cersei? Especially when we, the audience, know that he's not Ned Stark's son?

14 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

He was raised by Ned Stark, he might not be his son biologically but for all other intents and purposes he is. He is not running a game on Dany, not only is it against his honour, he's just not that cunning.

I think that was the point of his speech to Theon.  "You're a Greyjoy, and you're a Stark."  Well, no matter what, Jon is going to consider himself Ned Stark's son too.

IMO, Jon can be cunning, but you hit the nail on the head in the first part of the sentence - he has honour.  

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9 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

 

. The moment that Sansa gets out from behind her high table and puts herself physically on the line for her people, my opinion may change. But not before then.

On that basis, the allies in WWII should never have followed FDR or Winston Churchill (who was a war cord despondent with a privileged title).

Sometimes the best leaders are not the best soldiers. 

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1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Why doesn't Sam think he's a good man? Like he's one of the fundamentally good guys on the show and in he books. And Bran was almost normal with him. 

Good men often don't see themselves as "good".  That humility and wanting to be better men is part of what makes them good men.  Bad men usually see themselves as good, because they believe they can do no wrong.  

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14 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Did anyone else catch Bronn telling Jamie he can't get used to being called "Lord?" Is he a Lord because he's Ser Bronn of the Blackwater? Or did Jamie give him a new title after the recent battle where Bronn saved him from the dragon fire? That was an interesting little throwaway line - I thought it might have been meant to indicate Bronn had finally been rewarded with the castle and title he sought. What happened to Bronn's wife?

I think it's just an honorific, i.e., milord.

Bronn's not married.  Cersei gave his would-be bride to somebody else back in Season 5 to force him to go with Jaime to Dorne.

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What do they call bastards born in Kings Landing?

Bastards born in the Crownlands are surnamed Waters.

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4 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

He was raised by Ned Stark, he might not be his son biologically but for all other intents and purposes he is. He is not running a game on Dany, not only is it against his honour, he's just not that cunning.

I think we have a very different view on this character. He doesn't care about his "honor," he cares about his "duty." He continually upholds what is right - to be the shield that guards the realms of men - at any personal cost to himself. He allows himself to be branded a traitor for his duty to the Watch. He lied to do this. 

In this way he is like Ned, who ruined his honor to uphold his duty to his sister.

At the same time he's not like the "image" everyone has of Ned, which is "honorable to a fault."

I dont think he's falling into that trap again. All the other Starks are catching on to the game. What is his arc at this point? That he fell in love and went on to win the great war? 

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5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think that was the point of his speech to Theon.  "You're a Greyjoy, and you're a Stark."  Well, no matter what, Jon is going to consider himself Ned Stark's son too.

IMO, Jon can be cunning, but you hit the nail on the head in the first part of the sentence - he has honour.  

exactly, he may not know it but that speech applies to him as well. He's a Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, grandson of the Mad King but he's also a Stark and he was raised a Stark with all that implies.

 

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I think we have a very different view on this character. He doesn't care about his "honor," he cares about his "duty." He continually upholds what is right - to be the shield that guards the realms of men - at any personal cost to himself. He allows himself to be branded a traitor for his duty to the Watch. He lied to do this. 

his duty is to the Northern Lords who named him their King and the people of the North, he has seen that the best way to carry out this duty is to ally with Daenerys. He has convinced her to put her fight for the throne aside for now and to defend the kingdoms of men. He did that by risking his life, showing her what the enemy was and swearing his fealty to her.

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8 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Nobody likes Baelish, so there's that, but why on earth would the Northern Lords care about Robin or his parents?  Those are Vale problems--which is why there were no Northern Lords there, only Vale Lords.  This would more likely be seen as her having drug Southern problems up North and then having her siblings have to help her clean them up.  There's no way that the "treason and murder" charges have any importance in the North--since his murders were in the South and his treason was both in the South and not even to House Stark.  The only thing that involved the North was his betrayal of Ned--but since Ned wasn't his lord, that's personal betrayal, not treason.  He plotted to ultimately overthrow Baratheon and Lannister, not Stark.

I think all lords would care about a liege lord being murdered.  If nothing else, it's just survival and the action of murdering Jon Arryn decimated the Northern Houses.  I think they'd care just out self-preservation. 

 

I enjoyed Littlefinger's death scene because hey ho, Littlefinger died and that makes my heart say , "Yippee!"  I didn't really dig the plot that got us there because it was contrived and it seemed to be in place to play to the existing tensions in fandom as opposed to being an organic part of the story.   

The Ride of Knifey's Revenge is going to always be a fun scene for me just because someone finally just called the world's most obvious villain out and executed him.  I'm glad it got to be the remaining Stark children because Littlefinger was responsible for the death of Ned, Catelyn and Robb for setting this all in motion and some of all of this was his intent. 

The ultra stupid forstalling of the moment that Arya and Sansa finally say some version of "Whoa, check out what you've been through, you have my admiration and also? Fucking bygones on all childish matters, we're all we've got now, let's pull together and put our house back together."   

 

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

I think maybe next year I shouldn't devour all the spoilers because it really made the finale anticlimactic.  Still, it was satisfying to see an end to LF's machinations and have Jaime walk away from Cersei (finally!).  I didn't know about the Theon scenes (so that's the payoff for Ramsay's torture?  Theon can't be kneed in the balls?) so it was good to see him be proactive.  Boatsex, ok.  The fall of the Wall, ok.  It was fun to see so much of the cast together in the dragon pit scene and I'm glad they put an end to the animosity between the Stark sisters.

Lena Headey is gorgeous (those cheekbones!) but I hate the way she clenches her teeth and talks through them.  Maybe she does this to make Cersei more annoying.  Gah, I hope she gets eaten by the undead in 8.01.  I'm so done with her.

Yeah, I love Lena Headey but Cersei doesn't even make sense as a character any longer.  All that "Euron wasn't going to give up on the crown that easily" (paraphrase) stuff was kind of ludicrous because if Cersei remains knocked up, I don't think Euron -- who presumably knows he hasn't had sex with Cersei, unless he's an epic blackout drunk -- is going to be all, "Yes, of course, put your child with your brother, on the throne."  

So her plan is already stupid from jump.  Hopefully, she'll give birth to a baby who is a dwarf, get killed by a Stark because man, have they ever earned it over Jaime and in the series there's been no mention of the prophecy about being killed by her brother.   It took series Jaime so incredibly long to leave Cersei he's kind of forfeited the right to kill her.  He's just kind of a different character than he was in the books.  I'm glad he's headed towards the important fighting but this dragged on far too long because the showrunners couldn't commit to the book plot for whatever reason. 

I feel like a fondness for Lena Headey played a role in that and I wish it hadn't, she'd have done good work no matter what they gave her. 

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