PODCAST In Lieu of Podcast episodes: Season 3: The College Year

[halgia]

Discussion about the year where everything, even the theme song, changed.

[BBHN]

I...didn't hate season 3? *small voice* I kind of liked it...

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, BBHN said:

I...didn't hate season 3? *small voice* I kind of liked it...

I'm on my phone so may be the occasional weird word :-)

I like it, too but I think it isn't a romance and a lot of people want that in a story. Also L doesn't come off as a very good boyfriend! It must be all V's fault!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I traditionally do not *dislike* it, it just doesn't stay in my brain, at all. I remember a couple of recurring guest stars, and Piz, and the one main arc with the head-shaving, but the episodes aren't memorable, to the point where my husband will remember my having watched an S3 joint, but I won't recall it at all.

 

Rote VM is still better than most shows, and I felt for them vis-a-vis trying to make the transition to college work, because it almost never does. But yeah, the time jump should have happened here.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

I traditionally do not *dislike* it, it just doesn't stay in my brain, at all. I remember a couple of recurring guest stars, and Piz, and the one main arc with the head-shaving, but the episodes aren't memorable, to the point where my husband will remember my having watched an S3 joint, but I won't recall it at all.

 

Rote VM is still better than most shows, and I felt for them vis-a-vis trying to make the transition to college work, because it almost never does. But yeah, the time jump should have happened here.

Yeah, I assume they had pressure not to have a new cast. I suspect, though, that they really tried to get rid of Logan as a love interest and this ended up really messing up the show with the fans. It would have worked better if he had just gone into rehab for a year or two, or as promised ended up working for the Fitzpatricks.

I wonder how they could have done it? Mac and Veronica as partners in the FBI, Wallace as their good buddy in the NBA and  Logan as their main suspect in some serial killer saga?

I'm now stuck in a mind worm, trying to figure out how they could have made things work. Veronica at Stanford, studying photography and psychology, gets involved with San Francisco's noirish underbelly,  Logan follows and begins stalking her (well he does in the regular third season), Keith ends up being Sheriff; Mac solves the hearst rapist mystery and Wallace and Weevil form a comedy team that plays the local clubs and later they team up with a young musician named Piz to fight crime.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Affogato

[pau]

And finally Veronica working in the FBI was a bad direction..even RT admitted it..Veronica doesn't play by the rules..she is not a cop..the movie finally explained it pretty well..it is about the core of her character, she is a maverick..and  we loved her, rooted for her and empathized with her because of that.

Third season was also weak because the new characters were not compelling and interesting enough and the plots not as well built and complex than in previous seasons but it was still better than majority of other tv shows..but Veronica characterisation was the major weakness..

Edited August 22, 2017 by pau

[topanga]

51 minutes ago, pau said:

but Veronica characterisation was the major weakness..

I can't remember the specifics of Sesson 3 Veronica, but she wasn't interesting to me and didn't challenge the status quo as much as she used to. Was she too focused on her relationships?

[pau]

48 minutes ago, topanga said:

I can't remember the specifics of Sesson 3 Veronica, but she wasn't interesting to me and didn't challenge the status quo as much as she used to. Was she too focused on her relationships?

She was above all too bitchy and self-rigteous and not so much anymore the compelling outsider fans/people fell in love with, to begin with.

Veronica was the stalker in the third season, not Logan.

And Logan as a serial killer, Weevil and Wallace as comedians that play local club (wtf..) and musicians fighting crime would have been even worse than anything..and cancelled asap..actually not even ordered and obviously something Rob Thomas would never do because he is mart and talented.

Edited August 22, 2017 by pau

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, pau said:

And finally Veronica working in the FBI was a bad direction..even RT admitted it..Veronica doesn't play by the rules..she is not a cop..the movie finally explained it pretty well..it is about the core of her character, she is a maverick..and  we loved her, rooted for her and empathized with her because of that.

Third season was also weak because the new characters were not compelling and interesting enough and the plots not as well built and complex than in previous seasons but it was still better than majority of other tv shows..but Veronica characterisation was the major weakness..

Well,  Veronica always excelled in school.  School is in large part and deliberately made up of a lot of stupid rules and hoops you have to negotiate to get to the next level, from dress codes to style sheets. Corporate law? She had to have picked it because it was cut throat, competitive and favored those who could learn the rules, follow them, bend them  she just didn't care about the outcome but she loves the game.  FBI, too. She would have ruled in the FBI. Recognizing the rules and working around them is her great skill.

Compare with Logan who couldn't follow rules well or figure when he needed to andwhen he could work around them and  ended up in a job where someone made it very very simple and clear cut. 

 

There's nothing maverick about her PI, either, mostly its dull and Thomas has said the hardest thing was making it interesting.  It doesn't leave her with a lot of challenge.  It's dangerous for no reason.  The relationship with Logan really is pretty limited, he's not adding much to her life when you think about it--the only interesting thing he does is ion another world-- she'll end up staying for hunter when her mother implodes, if she implodes. It is a noir ending, the ending of season three was potentially much happier. 

[Affogato]

48 minutes ago, pau said:

She was above all too bitchy and self-rigteous and not so much anymore the compelling outsider fans/people fell in love with, to begin with.

Veronica was the stalker in the third season, not Logan.

And Logan as a serial killer, Weevil and Wallace as comedians that play local club and musicians fighting crime would have been even worse than anything..and cancelled asap..

Not playful, are you?

he gave her clear evidence he was cheating, probably so she would drop him. Also he kept his activities secret for no reason while he knew everything she did, pretty much. She bugged him decided that was wrong and trusted him stupidly from then on until he was forced to drop her. 

He hired someone to follow her and assault her which could have come with a jail sentence. Think about it. 

[topanga]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Not playful, are you?

he gave her clear evidence he was cheating, probably so she would drop him. Also he kept his activities secret for no reason while he knew everything she did, pretty much. She bugged him decided that was wrong and trusted him stupidly from then on until he was forced to drop her. 

He hired someone to follow her and assault her which could have come with a jail sentence. Think about it. 

Yeah, all of this is a blur. I'm actually looking forward to S3 so I can revisit thes episodes.

[pau]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well,  Veronica always excelled in school.  School is in large part and deliberately made up of a lot of stupid rules and hoops you have to negotiate to get to the next level, from dress codes to style sheets. Corporate law? She had to have picked it because it was cut throat, competitive and favored those who could learn the rules, follow them, bend them  she just didn't care about the outcome but she loves the game.  FBI, too. She would have ruled in the FBI. Recognizing the rules and working around them is her great skill.

Compare with Logan who couldn't follow rules well or figure when he needed to andwhen he could work around them and  ended up in a job where someone made it very very simple and clear cut. 

 

There's nothing maverick about her PI, either, mostly its dull and Thomas has said the hardest thing was making it interesting.  It doesn't leave her with a lot of challenge.  It's dangerous for no reason.  The relationship with Logan really is pretty limited, he's not adding much to her life when you think about it--the only interesting thing he does is ion another world-- she'll end up staying for hunter when her mother implodes, if she implodes. It is a noir ending, the ending of season three was potentially much happier. 

Veronica excelled at school all right but above all because she had to get through it but she excelled even more at being her own boss, playing HER OWN rules and she could do that by being a PI.  It also challenged her so much more..and in fiction, in noirish atmosphere PI is the opposite of dull..RT never said it was hard to make it interesting..Raymond Chandler did not have any problem making it interesting, Rob Thomas neither.

Logan was so much smarter than the innacurate portrayal you make of this character. He totally could figure the rules when he was really required to do it and finally in the movie by being military he totally played by these rules. But he also could bypass them because he is/was smart.

And Veronica Mars the character is built by the maverick identity..it is the core of this character and this show !

Logan add as much as a life partner can add for Veronica..he is her perfect match. Both character are smart, tragic, flawed who complete each others..perfectly imperfect together.

"The ending of season three was potentially much happier"..ugh..NO, it was sad and noir and did fit the atmosphere of the show but it was certainly not much happier.

Edited August 22, 2017 by pau

[pau]

17 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Not playful, are you?

he gave her clear evidence he was cheating, probably so she would drop him. Also he kept his activities secret for no reason while he knew everything she did, pretty much. She bugged him decided that was wrong and trusted him stupidly from then on until he was forced to drop her. 

He hired someone to follow her and assault her which could have come with a jail sentence. Think about it. 

"Not playful, are you ?" What does that mean exactly...

First he never cheated.

She was the one who did putt a GPS plotter in his car behind his back.

For no reasons ? Yeah there was reasons if you know the character, his background, his history and his emotional insecurity. He was not forced to drop her. He chose because he could not bear being judged non stop by her and feeling like a disappointment for her.. because he did value her so much as a person. It was even said pretty clearly in the dialogue of these characters.

He hired someone all right and it was bad judgment and a bad move.. Veronica rightfully called him out about it but he also had valid arguments for doing it, the dialogue between them was pretty subtle, smart and realistic about these issues and not as one note and simplistic as you are implying. But it was not assault, on the other hand what Veronica did was stalking..clear cut stalking.

We did not see the same show and the same characters.

Edited August 22, 2017 by pau

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, pau said:

"Not playful, are you ?" What does that mean exactly...

First he never cheated.

She was the one who did putt a GPS plotter in his car behind his back.

For no reasons ? Yeah there was reasons if you know the character, his background, his history and his emotional insecurity. He was not forced to drop her. He chose because he could not bear being judged non stop by her and feeling like a disappointment for her.. because he did value her so much as a person. It was even said pretty clearly in the dialogue of these characters.

He hired someone all right and it was bad judgment and a bad move.. Veronica rightfully called him out about it but he also had valid arguments for doing it, the dialogue between them was pretty subtle, smart and realistic about these issues and not as one note and simplistic as you are implying. But it was not assault, on the other hand what Veronica did was stalking..clear cut stalking.

We did not see the same show and the same characters.

I didn't say he cheated. Knowing that cheating was a trigger for Veronica he acted as if he was cheating. How would anyone feel if your boy/girl/gril friend, who you didn't know was out partying and making friends, met a couple of boys/girls/grils that he obviously knew, flirted and made plans and didn't introduce you as his girlfriend? Logan's girlfriend was Veronica, he was sending up flares. 

Logan hired someone to follow and physically assault someone he knew had been raped and physically assaulted and did it without her knowledge. She was terrified when she was pulled away from a fight that she entered into to support her friend Wallace (her right to do so). This is assault. In the context of the show, which deals a lot with rape, this is taking control away from someone in a way that is analogous to rape.

You are comparing this to Veronica following Logan to a party, one time? and then earlier she did this other thing, traced his car once. (remembering the context of the show, too. Usually she would just follow him to the dorm where the party was held in tv land) She doesn't stop him from doing anything.  He feels he should know everything about her movements and she doesn't need to know diddly squat about his movements. 

Is it because he's an insecure, desperate guy with separation anxiety induced ptsd and a chemical dependence problem? Is he passive aggressive? Oh, yes. Sure. I get he has problems. 

Anyway, I want to discuss the individual episodes and do this rewatch. Happy to read your thoughts as they come up. Yes, not watching the same show, very clearly.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, pau said:

 

Veronica excelled at school all right but above all because she had to get through it but she excelled even more at being her own boss, playing HER OWN rules and she could do that by being a PI.  It also challenged her so much more..and in fiction, in noirish atmosphere PI is the opposite of dull..RT never said it was hard to make it interesting..Raymond Chandler did not have any problem making it interesting, Rob Thomas either.

Logan was so much smarter than the innacurate portrayal you make of this character. He totally could figure the rules when he was really required to do it and finally in the movie by being military he totally played by these rules. But he also could bypass them because he is/was smart.

And Veronica Mars the character is built by the maverick identity..it is the core of this character and this show !

Logan add as much as a life partner can add for Veronica..he is her perfect match. Both character are smart, tragic, flawed who complete each others..perfectly imperfect together.

"The ending of season three was potentially much happier"..ugh..NO, it was sad and noir and did fit the atmosphere of the show but it was certainly not much happier.

Yes, RT did actually say it was hard to make it interesting. 

It is clear that you really like Logan a lot, however I wasn't talking about intelligence. Logan is a pretty damaged person, when he was a child he was grossly punished for minor things and probably grossly rewarded without real consistency by parents who were by turns indulgent, neglectful and horribly abusive. He needs external structure because he never learned it internally. Look, I don't play a psychiatrist on television, but it wasn't really difficult to get this from the show. 

All of your statements about their relationship still at the end of the day aren't anything but the romanticizing of an increasingly distant painful past. Still don't see it in their daily life. How will they complete each other? 

It was happier because she got out. This time she was dragged back in.

[pau]

53 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I didn't say he cheated. Knowing that cheating was a trigger for Veronica he acted as if he was cheating. How would anyone feel if your boy/girl/gril friend, who you didn't know was out partying and making friends, met a couple of boys/girls/grils that he obviously knew, flirted and made plans and didn't introduce you as his girlfriend? Logan's girlfriend was Veronica, he was sending up flares. 

Logan hired someone to follow and physically assault someone he knew had been raped and physically assaulted and did it without her knowledge. She was terrified when she was pulled away from a fight that she entered into to support her friend Wallace (her right to do so). This is assault. In the context of the show, which deals a lot with rape, this is taking control away from someone in a way that is analogous to rape.

You are comparing this to Veronica following Logan to a party, one time? and then earlier she did this other thing, traced his car once. (remembering the context of the show, too. Usually she would just follow him to the dorm where the party was held in tv land) She doesn't stop him from doing anything.  He feels he should know everything about her movements and she doesn't need to know diddly squat about his movements. 

Is it because he's an insecure, desperate guy with separation anxiety induced ptsd and a chemical dependence problem? Is he passive aggressive? Oh, yes. Sure. I get he has problems. 

Anyway, I want to discuss the individual episodes and do this rewatch. Happy to read your thoughts as they come up. Yes, not watching the same show, very clearly.

Indeed we did not watch the same show and thankfully the show i loved dearly when i was a young woman who could relate a lot to Veronica Mars was the show i watched.

Me, i watched a show i know really well about smart, subtle characters, subtle storytelling and where the main character was a smart but flawed young woman who i did relate a lot.

Logan had trust issues at this time which was logic given his past and it was the same with Veronica..therefore their relationship suffered  and they were young and it was a tv show where drama is needed..so they struggled with it but it did not change the strength of their connection, their need for each others, their love for each others. The relationship was pretty realistic in the context of a noir teen/adult tv show. 

For the guy Logan hired see the context too : Veronica was working a really dangerous case about a college rapist..and she already got herself in danger concerning this case several times..Logan first let her handling that by herself because he knew so well Veronica and knew she could handle many things but finally when she was really in danger and he was almost witness of it, he decided to do something, which is human..He was a proactive character..the opposite of passive agressive actually. And while Veronica was mad at first she understood his position but he knew she wanted anyway to continue handling everything by herself, which was her right but it was also hard for him to be passive given the delicate context and his personality being proactive like Veronica is. So both were right and wrong and both had a understandable point of view..Which make this show, these characters, this relationship dynamic so realistic and brilliant.

What Veronica did was stalking and can be an act handled by pressing charges.

Logan is not desperate, he has/had insecurity, trust and abandonment issues just like Veronica. He does not need know everything about Veronica's movements at all..just in a case where he knew she was in real danger and witnessed it himself..On the other hand Veronica needed to know Logan's every movements, it is for this reason she put a GPS tracker..yeah it was tracking/stalking..on his car. And what chemical dependence are you talking about ? wtf.

And comparing everything to rape is damaging and dangerous..as a woman who know pretty well this issue i find it tacky and kind of misleading. It was an act who frightened Veronica, something who shaked her up..she was mad and she was right to feel that way, she called out Logan about it but it is certainly not comparable.

Edited August 22, 2017 by pau

[pau]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yes, RT did actually say it was hard to make it interesting. 

It is clear that you really like Logan a lot, however I wasn't talking about intelligence. Logan is a pretty damaged person, when he was a child he was grossly punished for minor things and probably grossly rewarded without real consistency by parents who were by turns indulgent, neglectful and horribly abusive. He needs external structure because he never learned it internally. Look, I don't play a psychiatrist on television, but it wasn't really difficult to get this from the show. 

All of your statements about their relationship still at the end of the day aren't anything but the romanticizing of an increasingly distant painful past. Still don't see it in their daily life. How will they complete each other? 

It was happier because she got out. This time she was dragged back in.

Nah he did not say that.  He talked being hard to continue with his type of narrative : writing cases where Veronica and her close ones have an emotional attachement to it..which was the first angle of his storytelling and made his show so relatable.  Otherwise it is not hard (many many many procedural tv shows are built on that) but it is not as interesting and what made his show his show..Veronica Mars and Twin Peaks used that but it is difficult to sustain this process season after season without becoming too convoluted and unrealistic.

I loved almost all the characters of this show because they all had their history, nuances, complexity, struggles and flawed aspects.  Logan was a really interesting case, the actor playing him was phenomenal and yeah the character was damaged which made him even more interesting. Veronica was damaged too..actually both characters shared lot's of similarity and were also pretty different, all this mix of similarity/opposition was the reason they complete each others. Only Logan and Veronica could get each others for all the right and all the wrong reasons. It is really relatable because in real life people are not perfect and they don't have perfect relationships but they have to understand each other.

I don't romantize any distant painful past, i am talking about a complex, sometimes dark sometimes full of hope, smart, strong, sometimes tragic, pretty intense and realistic relationship between two beautiful, damaged, flawed fictional characters..yeah they were epic.

She was dragged back by herself, it was her choice, it was about HER and not about Logan and she explained it very well in the last part of the movie.

Edited August 22, 2017 by pau

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Time to agree to disagree -- and to do it in a topic-appropriate thread, as none of this happened in S01.E08. Thanks!

[pau]

5 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

Time to agree to disagree -- and to do it in a topic-appropriate thread, as none of this happened in S01.E08. Thanks!

I could not agree more but it is really frustrating when someone rewrite what happened onscreen, even more when it concern such great  and subtle, layered television.

[jeansheridan]

Season 3 shouldn't have happened. KB is a professional so it was well acted but ug. I erased it from my memory with zero regret. 

Also why must high school kids go to college? I think this is such a plot trap producers of good high school shows fall in to. Other than Felicity which was designed around college, shows can't make the leap. Friend groups change, interests change. So unless they are willing to drop all the side characters and let their lead move forward alone, it rings false.