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S06 Discussion


catrox14
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18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This brings to mind a question. Cas brought Sam back to help with the Alpha monster collection with the goal of Purgatory and all those souls in mind. So what if they had succeeded without needing Dean, and Cas figured out Sam done come back wrong. Would he have just put him back? Would he have gone to Dean then? Would Bobby have missed Sam eventually and decided to tell Dean?

I don't think Cass brought Sam back to collect the souls and Alphas; Cass brought Sam back for Dean and resurrected him long before he and Crowley hatched their little deal to get the souls in Purgatory. In fact, I don't think Cass actually wanted Sam involved, but couldn't stop him from working with Grampy Campbell without revealing himself and what he was up to to Sam. And, Sam wasn't actually actively involved with the plan. He went on some of the raids to capture the Alphas, but had no idea, nor cared, what Samuel was doing with them.

As to Bobby, I just think Bobby probably knew something was off about Sam, but didn't spend enough time around him to see just how off he was. I think he would've went to Dean if he had known how bad it was, though. 

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7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And even though Soulless Sam had some snark, I never found it to be Dean-like with maybe the exception of "Clap Your Hands..." and by then we and Dean knew Sam was soulless so he could be a little freer. But up until that episode, I found Soulless Sam's snark to be much colder and almost cruel compared to Dean's with "All Dogs Go to Heaven" being a good example. Even Sam's snark in "Clap Your Hands..." had a cavalier almost cruel edge to it that I don't see in Dean's snark. Your Miles May Vary.

.

FWIW, our miles don't vary much on this thought. I think after the reveal was when she went all in for it, adding the snark to the character that(in her mind) would be the final ingredient in her attempt at turning Sam/JP into the "new Dean". And I think that might have been her biggest mistake because I don't think that JP's delivery of those lines worked at all. IMO, snark is a difficult thing for an actor to pull off while also keeping their character not just likeable, but loveable.

And I honestly think and feel that her writer's intention was for SoullessSam to at least be likeable to most in the fandom, and she was counting on JP doing his part via the acting to make that happen for the character, too.

Taking the rest of my comment to the B vs J thread just to be safe.

Edited by Myrelle
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10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I remember that time in the fandom very well and I further remember the relief and applause from pretty much all segments of the fandom after Appointment in Samarra aired going into the winter hiatus of that season, too, with her mused-upon full season of SoullessSam done away with even while we were being apprised of the thought of that.

I remember the comments about Appointment in Samarra, though I wasn't reading TWoP at the time--I was on another forum which was (apparently) much more Sam-friendly, and mostly what I remember was outrage against Dean for "forcing" Sam to take back that damaged soul.  In fact, there were a number of people who were calling it "rape" at the time, and no defense of Dean was accepted.  So maybe they appreciated the end of SS, but it was seen as another betrayal by Dean, equal to Dean's later forcing Gadreel on Sam.  (This is not BvJ, BTW, just a comment on how the fans I was reading reacted.)  

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4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I remember the comments about Appointment in Samarra, though I wasn't reading TWoP at the time--I was on another forum which was (apparently) much more Sam-friendly, and mostly what I remember was outrage against Dean for "forcing" Sam to take back that damaged soul.  In fact, there were a number of people who were calling it "rape" at the time, and no defense of Dean was accepted.  So maybe they appreciated the end of SS, but it was seen as another betrayal by Dean, equal to Dean's later forcing Gadreel on Sam.  (This is not BvJ, BTW, just a comment on how the fans I was reading reacted.)  

I've also read comments here that stated the same and it was just in the last year or so. 

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8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Cass brought Sam back to collect the souls and Alphas; Cass brought Sam back for Dean and resurrected him long before he and Crowley hatched their little deal to get the souls in Purgatory. In fact, I don't think Cass actually wanted Sam involved, but couldn't stop him from working with Grampy Campbell without revealing himself and what he was up to to Sam. And, Sam wasn't actually actively involved with the plan. He went on some of the raids to capture the Alphas, but had no idea, nor cared, what Samuel was doing with them.

As to Bobby, I just think Bobby probably knew something was off about Sam, but didn't spend enough time around him to see just how off he was. I think he would've went to Dean if he had known how bad it was, though. 

I sincerely don't recall Cas bringing Sam back for Dean. Was he part of the conspiracy to keep the news away from Dean as well then? He ignored them right up until Dean called. Was he unaware that Sam never let Dean know he was alive? 

It seems I need to rewatch S6. I was sure it was said or implied that he brought Sam back in cahoots with Crowley. 

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2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I sincerely don't recall Cas bringing Sam back for Dean. Was he part of the conspiracy to keep the news away from Dean as well then? He ignored them right up until Dean called. Was he unaware that Sam never let Dean know he was alive? 

It seems I need to rewatch S6. I was sure it was said or implied that he brought Sam back in cahoots with Crowley. 

Crowley claimed it was he who brought Sam back, and held the idea of sending Sam back over them to get Dean to hunt Alphas for him. However, Cass went and got Sam out of the cage before the conspiracy started--it was after Cass and Dean had the talk in the car at the end of S5 where Dean said something to the effect that where was his reward...all he got was a dead brother. So, I think Cass did it for Dean, more than anything, with a healthy dose of hubris mixed in. But he missed a bit and Sam ran off. So, not knowing what to do about that, Cass went to Heaven and found out Raphael was running things and wanting to get the apocalypse back on the rails. That's when he made his deal with Crowley and someone resurrected Grampy Campbell--I don't believe Crowley had that much juice, but maybe between both Cass and Crowley they could make it happen.

So, Grampy Campbell was brought back specifically to hunt down the Alphas, and he used Sam as a hunter, but Sam didn't know any of the details of why or anything. I personally believe Cass would've preferred Sam stay out of it altogether--less likely his deal with the King of Hell would be found out and/or Dean be brought into it all--but Cass had no control over that part. So, in a way Sam was part of the conspiracy in the sense he went on some of the hunts, but he wasn't really an active participant in the sense that he knew what was going on. And, he was resurrected before Cass made the deal with Crowley.

I would guess that Cass did know Sam didn't tell Dean he was alive, though. I mean, Sam ran off while Cass was standing there watching and he had to know Sam was working with the Campbell's since they were working for Crowley and Cass was working with Crowley... . But, to be honest, I think Cass was fine with Sam not telling Dean because it would've brought Dean back in and then Cass would've been found out--as he was in the end.

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Currently laid up with a broken foot and thanking Chuck for netflix, I rewatched some old favorites, S6 among them.  I have to say, I really hate Grandpa Campbell.  The character, the actor, the whole shebang.  Ugh.

I think my favorite episode was Clap Your Hands if You Believe.    Soulless Sam was an ass but funny as hell.  Some good one liners.  About the level of close encounters Dean was experiencing in the cornfield, "I think number 4 is a butt thing".  I lol-ed so hard.  What I recall most about S6 is that  it was the season I began to really question things, like backstories, motives and who knew what when.  Things seemed fishy.  I can see more and more why there are fans who say stop watching at S5, just the Kripke years.  It's almost like 2 different shows.  Except there's Dean, who does one helluva a crossover as a hunter with a heart. 

Edited by trudysmom
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10 hours ago, trudysmom said:

I have to say, I really hate Grandpa Campbell.  The character, the actor, the whole shebang.  Ugh.

I think my favorite episode was Clap Your Hands if You Believe.    Soulless Sam was an ass but funny as hell.  Some good one liners.  About the level of close encounters Dean was experiencing in the cornfield, "I think number 4 is a butt thing".  I lol-ed so hard. 

I actually liked the actor that Played Grandpa Campbell as he has done many other things and is a good actor.  But the set up for the Campbell family didn't work and I think it was because Sera Gamble rushed the story and got it too complex.

I can't say about other fans but I was sick to death of the brother storyline of them fighting each other because they did amazing things when they worked together.  I didn't hate Lisa or Ben.  The alphas could have been a two-season arch and done differently I think it could have been really solid storytelling.

  I was getting burned out, so I stopped watching. 

Spoiler

Season 7 Leviathans started out okay, but I soon got sick of them so I did miss eps and the Mark of Cain brought me back in.

 

I don't know how I would feel if I was to watch the entire seasons straight through but each showrunner has had strengths and weaknesses. 

I still think that if the boys were competing for who was the biggest badass as hunters it would have been better than trying to flip flop Dean into Sam and Sam into Dean. 

Edited by 7kstar
Added spoiler tags just in case
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6 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I actually liked the actor that Played Grandpa Campbell as he has done many other things and is a good actor. 

I agree. I loved Mitch Pileggi on The X-FIles but hated him as Samuel Campbell.

6 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I can't say about other fans but I was sick to death of the brother storyline of them fighting each other because they did amazing things when they worked together.

This is my thought during every season when the writers create an unnecessary conflict just for the drama. It's not good television it's just aggravating.

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2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. I loved Mitch Pileggi on The X-FIles but hated him as Samuel Campbell. 

I think we were supposed to hate him and as such I think Mitch played it well.

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9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think we were supposed to hate him and as such I think Mitch played it well.

I’m aware that we weren’t supposed to like him. I think the fact that he was such a convincing asshole is proof of his ability.

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So I’m re-watching season 6 a bit today too because my Godson is in town, and that’s where he’s at in his first watch, so I’m watching a few with him. He’s 10. I personally think he’s too young for supernatural, but his mother says he loves it. He also goes to Catholic school and likes being able to compare lore lol. Anyway, we are at Clap Your Hands if You Believe. We want to know why Misha’s name is in the credits but he’s not in it. Anyone know? And yes lol soulless Sam. 

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11 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I actually liked the actor that Played Grandpa Campbell as he has done many other things and is a good actor.  But the set up for the Campbell family didn't work and I think it was because Sera Gamble rushed the story and got it too complex.

I think Mitch Pileggi did a very good job with what he was given.  I don't think the problem was that the story was too complex, but that it didn't make sense**--where were all these people for the last 25 years?  Why didn't the Winchesters know anything about them (and vice versa)?  Maybe they hadn't been gathered as a group before Grandpa showed up, but they weren't newbies at hunting so someone should have heard about them or mentioned them to the boys (even just a comment on the Campbell name).  

But my biggest annoyance at the SL was the stupidity of Grandpa's reason for working with Crowley.  Really?  Because he wanted Mary back?  Sounded a little squicky/borderline incestuous to me, especially the way he played it.  😟

**ETA: and they didn't know what to do with the story when they had it, so they just randomly killed 'em all off?  Apparently they weren't very good hunters after all...

Edited by ahrtee
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1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I’m aware that we weren’t supposed to like him. I think the fact that he was such a convincing asshole is proof of his ability.

I was actually agreeing that Mitch did a good job making Grampy Campbell an asshole. Sorry if my comment seemed to be 'splaining. Wasn't my intention.

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30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But my biggest annoyance at the SL was the stupidity of Grandpa's reason for working with Crowley.  Really?  Because he wanted Mary back?  Sounded a little squicky/borderline incestuous to me, especially the way he played it.  😟

I didn't think that this made sense either. Why would he ask for his daughter and not his wife? Or both for that matter?

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19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was actually agreeing that Mitch did a good job making Grampy Campbell an asshole. Sorry if my comment seemed to be 'splaining. Wasn't my intention.

It's cool; my bad for misinterpreting your comment. 😊

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1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

So I’m re-watching season 6 a bit today too because my Godson is in town, and that’s where he’s at in his first watch, so I’m watching a few with him. He’s 10. I personally think he’s too young for supernatural, but his mother says he loves it. He also goes to Catholic school and likes being able to compare lore lol. Anyway, we are at Clap Your Hands if You Believe. We want to know why Misha’s name is in the credits but he’s not in it. Anyone know? And yes lol soulless Sam. 

He was introduced on the series as a guest star during season 4 but was later promoted to a series regular for seasons 5 and 6 before being demoted again during seasons 7 and 8 and then he was promoted to a series regular again for season 9 to present.  https://supernatural.fandom.com/wiki/Misha_Collins

Since he was a regular it didn't mean he would be in every ep but would have more appearances than a guest star and the show has a contract for him to appear so if they need him he is available. 

A Series Regular refers to an actor that stars in a leading role and is contracted to the show for a certain period of time. They usually appear in some, but not all of the episodes. 

So his name shows a credit only meaning he is a regular but he isn't in that ep.  May have over explained.  lol

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1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think the problem was that the story was too complex, but that it didn't make sense**--where were all these people for the last 25 years?  Why didn't the Winchesters know anything about them (and vice versa)?  Maybe they hadn't been gathered as a group before Grandpa showed up, but they weren't newbies at hunting so someone should have heard about them or mentioned them to the boys (even just a comment on the Campbell name).  

When I say too complex, I'm talking about trying to do too much in one season.  Even Krikpe didn't do that.  I agree with every question you have raised.  

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31 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

He was introduced on the series as a guest star during season 4 but was later promoted to a series regular for seasons 5 and 6 before being demoted again during seasons 7 and 8 and then he was promoted to a series regular again for season 9 to present.  https://supernatural.fandom.com/wiki/Misha_Collins

Since he was a regular it didn't mean he would be in every ep but would have more appearances than a guest star and the show has a contract for him to appear so if they need him he is available. 

A Series Regular refers to an actor that stars in a leading role and is contracted to the show for a certain period of time. They usually appear in some, but not all of the episodes. 

So his name shows a credit only meaning he is a regular but he isn't in that ep.  May have over explained.  lol

Thank you. 🙂

Yes, I totally get that. However, to my knowledge that’s the only ep that his name appeared in that he wasn’t actually in. I suppose it had something to do with them wanting him in that cool X Files intro.  

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2 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Thank you. 🙂

Yes, I totally get that. However, to my knowledge that’s the only ep that his name appeared in that he wasn’t actually in. I suppose it had something to do with them wanting him in that cool X Files intro.  

I agree about the name/appearance. Perhaps his scene ended up on the cutting-room floor. 😞

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On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 1:10 PM, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't think that this made sense either. Why would he ask for his daughter and not his wife? Or both for that matter?

Maybe it was like Mary's deal when Azazel said her parents weren't on the table.  Maybe Crowley said Deanna wasn't on the table.  Maybe Samuel and Deanna were soulmates and thus sharing a Heaven, so he knew she was happy.

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2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe Samuel and Deanna were soulmates and thus sharing a Heaven, so he knew she was happy.

Which brings up another point. If Samuel was in Heaven, how would Crowley have gotten him out? We knew later that he was working with Cas but he wouldn't have been powerful enough to pull a soul out of Heaven, would he? I think that it's more likely that Samuel was in Hell.

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1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which brings up another point. If Samuel was in Heaven, how would Crowley have gotten him out? We knew later that he was working with Cas but he wouldn't have been powerful enough to pull a soul out of Heaven, would he? I think that it's more likely that Samuel was in Hell.

Sam was supposedly in Heaven (per Ash) when he died in Season 2, and was brought back by a demon deal.  Crowley said (which I know may not be accurate, but still) that he could get Bobby anything if he sold his soul, so yeah, I think he could.  I can't really think of any reason Samuel would be in Hell unless he had previously sold his soul for something, because in SPN verse, you only go to Hell for selling your soul or killing people for no good reason.

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4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I can't really think of any reason Samuel would be in Hell unless he had previously sold his soul for something, because in SPN verse, you only go to Hell for selling your soul or killing people for no good reason.

Considering the shadiness that made up Samuel's character it's not a stretch to assume that he had done things that would have kept him out of Heaven. With the ease that he sold out Sam and Dean to Crowley he may have done some pretty underhanded things in life if he felt the payoff was worth it.

That being said we don't know if Ellen and Jo went to Heaven so maybe all hunters aren't sent there. I find it strange that Ash knew that Sam and Dean had been in Heaven before while not even being aware that Ellen and Jo were dead. I know that it's bad writing with huge plot holes but I don't understand how Ash's heaven would be The Roadhouse but Ellen ( who owned it ) and Jo ( who helped run it ) wouldn't be present. I would think that Ellen would be there with her husband and daughter since she was all about family. Then again there's the whole soulmates angle so maybe not. Argh. Trying to make sense of this gives me a migraine. 

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21 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I know that it's bad writing with huge plot holes but I don't understand how Ash's heaven would be The Roadhouse but Ellen ( who owned it ) and Jo ( who helped run it ) wouldn't be present. I would think that Ellen would be there with her husband and daughter since she was all about family. Then again there's the whole soulmates angle so maybe not.

I'm thinking that Ash made his "Ashland" the way that he wanted. I'm thinking because he was a whiz at the tech stuff and could hack into the Enochian communications that he somehow short-circuited heaven's usual Memorex programming, so that there were no other memory "people" in his Roadhouse. Ash's heaven seemed to be more in the present rather than memories he'd had.

28 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I find it strange that Ash knew that Sam and Dean had been in Heaven before while not even being aware that Ellen and Jo were dead.

I think he was probably watching for Sam and Dean because he knew that they were hunters. He might've checked at first for Ellen and Jo, but after not seeing them, figured that once the Roadhouse burned down that maybe Ellen and Jo had given up that life, especially after not seeing them for so long after he got to heaven. Sam likely showed up pretty quickly, and then Dean likely showed up a bunch of times ("Mystery Spot") not too long after that.


Those are my theories anyway.

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5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think he was probably watching for Sam and Dean because he knew that they were hunters.

But Ash wasn't close enough to Sam or Dean to even care. Honestly his connection to the brothers was because of Ellen. The only way it makes sense ( to me anyway ) is if it was out of morbid fascination from seeing how many times they ended up dead and waiting to see if or when they came back.

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm thinking that Ash made his "Ashland" the way that he wanted. I'm thinking because he was a whiz at the tech stuff and could hack into the Enochian communications that he somehow short-circuited heaven's usual Memorex programming, so that there were no other memory "people" in his Roadhouse. Ash's heaven seemed to be more in the present rather than memories he'd had.

From what we saw of Ash I felt that it wasn't just the location but the people as well. I couldn't see him just wanting to spend eternity in the building without at least having Ellen along with him. I'm sure the most likely explanation is that they didn't want to pay the actresses to reprise their roles so they kept it simple with Ash only.

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3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

But Ash wasn't close enough to Sam or Dean to even care. Honestly his connection to the brothers was because of Ellen. The only way it makes sense ( to me anyway ) is if it was out of morbid fascination from seeing how many times they ended up dead and waiting to see if or when they came back.

Oh I think it was that. Also there was likely angel chatter about it when either Sam or Dean hit heaven, and Ash was monitoring the angel chatter - he called his system a holy-rolling police scanner - so he would likely know when they showed up that way. I like to imagine that when either of them showed up in heaven that the angels would be on alert, and that kind of chatter would get back to Ash via his computer monitoring system. Ash even said that's how he found out about them, that he heard that Sam and Dean were "up" from his scanner.

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

From what we saw of Ash I felt that it wasn't just the location but the people as well. I couldn't see him just wanting to spend eternity in the building without at least having Ellen along with him. I'm sure the most likely explanation is that they didn't want to pay the actresses to reprise their roles so they kept it simple with Ash only.

But I don't think Ash would want a fake Memorex Ellen. I'm guessing he likely did look for evidence of Ellen and Jo at first and maybe even for a while, but it was quite a while after Ash died before Ellen and Jo did ...2 1/2 seasons show time. Ash might not have done a more recent search for them before Sam and Dean showed up, and he had heard the angel chatter that Sam and Dean were there and in trouble to know that they were back. It wasn't just a random search.

As for Ash and The Roadhouse, he stayed there sometimes, but he also took multiple "vacations" to other peoples' heavens, probably on a routine basis.*** I'm guessing much of his time in The Roadhouse was spent monitoring angel chatter and making sure he knew how to avoid the angels finding him and improving his "skills." I'm sure the angels wouldn't be too happy if they found out about his heaven-hopping.

*** Ash said that he'd been all over heaven. Some examples he gave: Johnny Cash, Andre the Giant, Albert Einstein, and the guy who wrote the Kama Sutra. He said that he found him just the other day, implying that he goes searching and visiting a lot. The fact that Ash came across Pamela at some point - and knew that Pamela would want to see Sam and Dean - to me means that Ash got around a LOT^^^... either that, or that Zachariah was doing a little manipulating in heaven.

^^^ Because as far as we know, Ash didn't know Pamela before he died, or if he did, it was through Bobby and likely only in passing or through reputation.

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12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering the shadiness that made up Samuel's character it's not a stretch to assume that he had done things that would have kept him out of Heaven. With the ease that he sold out Sam and Dean to Crowley he may have done some pretty underhanded things in life if he felt the payoff was worth it.

We didn't see him do anything shady before he died.

Spoiler

and as we know from Mary, long-term death changes you.

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31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

How specifically?  what shady thing did we see him do before he died?

I think that working for Crowley while his family was left in the dark was plenty shady. Even though Sam was soulless they still worked closely together and he still didn’t bother to enlighten him. Plus regardless of what he may have done out of grief it still doesn’t excuse leaving Sam and Dean to be eaten by ghouls just so they wouldn’t interfere with what he wanted. You may not have seen his actions as shady but I did.

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10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I think that working for Crowley while his family was left in the dark was plenty shady. Even though Sam was soulless they still worked closely together and he still didn’t bother to enlighten him. Plus regardless of what he may have done out of grief it still doesn’t excuse leaving Sam and Dean to be eaten by ghouls just so they wouldn’t interfere with what he wanted. You may not have seen his actions as shady but I did.

No, I didn't mean before he died for good.  I meant before he died the first time in In the Beginning and went to Heaven. Obviously pretty much everything he did in SEason 6 was shady as heck.

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6 hours ago, Katy M said:

No, I didn't mean before he died for good.  I meant before he died the first time in In the Beginning and went to Heaven. Obviously pretty much everything he did in SEason 6 was shady as heck.

Oh! That makes more sense; I thought that you were talking about before he was killed in And Then There Were None. I agree that we didn't see him act shady when he was introduced in season 4. My point was basically that we don't know if he had ever done anything before he was brought back that would have caused him to be sent to hell instead of heaven. It just doesn't make sense to me that Crowley could have brought him back. I understand that the CRD brought Sam back but do we know that he went to heaven after Cold Oak? Even though he was a hunter and a good person would he have been able to with the demon blood in him? Another annoying mystery. ☹️

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