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S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

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10 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oh, definitely a Stark.  But I think he was Bran the Builder's father......Bran of the Bloody Blade.  A notorious killer of Children of the Forest, and son (or at least direct descendent) of Garth Greenhand, THE foundational First Man in Westeros, father (or direct antecedent) of almost all of the Great Houses of Westeros.  The histories have time running oddly back in the age of heroes, almost as if the First Men were longer lived.

But definitely believe the Night King (as depicted on the show. and who is not the same as the Night's King of the books, 13th LC etc.).....shall we just call this NK fellow the HMFIC, was the father or grand/great grand father of Bran the Builder.....Bran of the Bloody Blade.  He ravaged the CotF before the Pact, and I think the CotF finally bagged him, and decided to both pay him back, and his people back, by turning him into a WMD.   Only it backfired, and the CotF & the realm of men made the Pact, and Bran the Builder joined the CotF & other magical beings to build the Wall (and Winterfell, and several other magic-imbued castles/buildings in Westeros.

It is indeed well established that the COTF created the White Walkers to deal with the First Men and it went out of control. And it would make sense that he's pre-Bran the Builder because one of the Kings in the North teamed up with a King Beyond the Wall to fight White Walkers. 

I like it. It is so. 

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12 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dany: "And give the country to Cersei? As soon as I march away, she marches in."

Wasn't suggesting that Dany fly her entire army up for a bit of recon, just herself.  She'd have been back on Dragonstone before anybody knew it.  But then with the teleporting armies they have in Westros these days, who knows. 

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Just now, henripootel said:

Wasn't suggesting that Dany fly her entire army up for a bit of recon, just herself.  She'd have been back on Dragonstone before anybody knew it.  But then with the teleporting armies they have in Westros these days, who knows. 

But Tyrion could have suggested that - instead he comes up with this crazy wight hunt idea where Jon is in *mortal danger*.

It does make some sense to me that he would use her concern for Jon to make her think it was her own idea all along to go up there.

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29 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, the show doesn't see it that way.  That's why Jon dismissed the issue with a quick "let's try to trust each other in the future" and a forehead kiss, and then left Sansa in charge of the North when he was gone.  If Sansa was a totally untrustworthy schemer who caused the deaths of thousands(?) of his men for no reason, he would not do those things, unless he was a moron.  By those actions, you can assess how much gravity the show assigns to that action.

That Tully motto is "Family. Duty, Honour".

I really don't see it that way.  I think D&D have a thing for Sansa and go out of their way to try to  make her more than, it doesn't matter if they have to write ridiculous scenes or put mind boggling dialogue in other characters' mouths. We're just supposed to take it on faith that Sansa is worthy. Well, I say how about writing the character better?  How about writing some scenes that let me see that she's this smart, politically savvy person?  The writing for Sansa is so poor I have no idea what she's playing at. Her dialogue is all over the place; so, I've decided she's a sketchy, arrogant, delusional little bitch. She should be locked in a dungeon with her Uncle Edmure because he was all about "Family. Duty, Honour".

Edited by taurusrose
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29 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

When and where did she conveniently find this poison?  Just walk up to the Maester at Harrenhall and say "excuse me sir, may I please have a dose of the Long Farewell?"  Because certainly all ten year old girls who have been kidnapped off the King's road carry around a bagful of poison, right?

Well, yeah, actually, sort of. First of all she was talking to Jacquen at that point, so she could have asked, but I'm sure there's some equaivalent to rat poison around.  Not that hard.

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40 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She mentioned the Wildlings last episode.

It isn't dismissing their contributions to say that they had lost the battle before the knights arrived, unless you want to accuse Jon of dismissing their contributions too, because he said the same thing.

She credited herself for bringing them there, which she did, according to the show.

I agree that this is not nearly as impressive a feat as the writers seem to think it is (indeed, I've written a fair amount on that score), but that's an issue with the writers, not the character specifically in-universe.

So then why she did act as she was solely responsible for the victory if she acknowledged everyone's contribution to the battle last episode?

And again, Jon thanked her because he's a nice guy like that. He gives credit where credit's due. He acknowledged her help in winning the battle. Unlike Sansa who dismisses the help of the Northerners and credits herself and herself alone with the victory. No acknowledgement anywhere that LF brought the army there, not her.

42 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, the show doesn't see it that way.  That's why Jon dismissed the issue with a quick "let's try to trust each other in the future" and a forehead kiss, and then left Sansa in charge of the North when he was gone.  If Sansa was a totally untrustworthy schemer who caused the deaths of thousands(?) of his men for no reason, he would not do those things, unless he was a moron.  By those actions, you can assess how much gravity the show assigns to that action.

Look, if we are going to justify Sansa's shitty actions because the show said so, then we should give the same leeway to the other characters. Criticizing Arya because she blames Sansa for her letter and then turning around and justifying every single Sansa action as 'because the show sees it that way' is just a biased argument at this point, one against which I can't debate.

In this episode, she bragged and gave herself sole credit for winning the battle without acknowledging the role played by LF and dismissing the efforts put in by everyone else with a 'They lost and I had to come in and save their asses - fall on your knees and thank me for that!' If you don't find that attitude snotty and arrogant then good for you.

She then treats Brienne like dirt because Brienne dares to question her - but she has no issues questioning and undermining Jon in front of everyone and has the gall to compare Jon to Joffrey because Jon did not listen to her nonsensical advice. I love how she snarks at everyone for daring to advice her- from LF to Brienne - but for some reason Jon has to listen to her because she apparently knows better.

Then she sends Brienne off to meet with Cersei - who she keeps whinging about in almost every episode - after getting some random letter from KL.  Instead of using Brienne to mediate with Arya and deal with LF. 

And was LF not in the room with her when she wrote that letter? Is that not why he knows about the letter in the first place. Why is her suspicion not immediately on him after hearing that Arya got it?

Sansa is just so dumb and snotty on the show. But the writing expects us to see her as being some genius ruler who knows all about grain storage and fitting armor with leather - for which Glover wants to kick Jon out and make her Queen. Whatever.

Edited by anamika
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Totally on-board with the "Where did those big fucking chains come from" faction. Seriously? No way 'the dead' crafted those.

Sansa and Arya are so Thor and Loki now it isn't even funny.

ICE DRAGON!

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Tippi 

Quote

 

Dany to the rescue!  I have hated losing each dire wolf, and now to have lost a dragon!  Hard to watch but packed a real emotional punch.

Okay, Kit may not be the tallest, but when you have a face like that you'll never be lonely.  LOVED the Dany/Jon scene on the boat.  Finally felt the connection, and heat!

 

This!!.....loved the interactions between the group while searching for a WW...

Agree with others not liking the Arya/Sansa sister fight, it's stupid and plot driven but if it leads to LF getting stabbed by Arya I'm on board!!!

RIP...Viseron you went down like a boss, but now you are back and I can't wait to see what happens.

Next sunday can't come soon enough!...oh and agree with all Dany's coat was Awesome "Hello Mother of Dragons"

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3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Dany's coat was fabulous, I want one.

I loved it too. I was looking at it trying to figure out how they made it. At first I thought some of it was felting but now I'm convinced it was all fur pieced together very intricately. I want to make a modified verse. If I could get the pelts. And if fur wasn't evil. The costumers on this show are so, so amazing.

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3 hours ago, SeanC said:

No, she didn't (unless you mean killing a few of his two-bit minions via Jaqen, and she only managed that because she got gifted a magical assassin; I'm sure Sansa could have killed a few people in KL if Dontos Hollard had turned out to be a Faceless Man who owed her three deaths).

I was talking about Arya stealing a message from the Lannisters. Armory Loch discovered it and that's why she had to ask Jaqen to kill him in a hurry. I seem to remember that the disappearance of said message eventually helped Robb, but even if my memory is faulty on that last point, it shows that Arya used her position to actively work against the Lannisters, took the risks and didn't meekly serve Tywin Lannister.

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

You will if you value that persons life as you value yours, it's harsh but She has reasons, Brieene would be faced with a terrible choice .

What would you rather have ? a woman sad for being talked to roughly, or a woman so honored bound she likely fall on her own sword after being forced to fight a child?

No , since I didn't drink the LF kool-aid and I don't believe for a second that Brienne would have to fight Arya.

First, because Arya is a stealth assassin. If she took Sansa down, she would use her faces and her poison. She wiped off the Frey who murdered her family in their stronghold. The deed would be done and no one would be able to do a thing about it. There would be no choice at all to face.

Second because in my opinion, LF underestimated one person, one thing, and one feeling. Brienne of Tarth, Brienne of Tarth's stubborn loyalty, and Brienne of Tarth's desire to chew him and spit him back like the Hound's ear. Sansa knows Brienne better, she knows all that, and she knows that Brienne's loyalty goes to Catelyn first and foremost. She would not touch a hair of any of Catelyn's daughters and certainly not based on hearsay or "concerns".

I believe it's ambiguous on purpose, but to me sending Brienne away is a sign that Sansa is actually tempted to get rid of Arya, at least at that point,  because she was a threat to her position, and to the alliance.

I would have rather have Sansa have the decency to be thankful and respectful of a woman who saved her life.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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I hear IKEA rugs are the costumers go-to. :D

(this was for all those drooling over Dany's outfit and wondering how to replicate it)

Edited by Willowy
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2 hours ago, anamika said:

The point is that Arya was in disguise under Tywin acting as a cupbearer. Tywin did not have her writing letters to Robb or know who she was. She did not betray her family and write letters asking them to bend the knee. According to Arya, Sansa did. So I don't see the relevance between Arya's stint as Tywin's cupbearer and Sansa's time in KL where it looked like she was actively working against her family by writing the letter. As Arya knows, Sansa has already done this once before.

But we also know Arya memories are filled with lack of info which makes her a bad judge events, she sees what she wants to see she forgot;" looking's not seeing dead girl ".

Ned going to cersei days before he even had a ship.

Arya training, chasing cats and pigeons while Sansa's in the throne room pleading for her father's life.

Sansa surrounded by Cersei, LF, Varys and Pycelle, with Cersei telling Sansa her father's life rest with her writing the letter and Robb coming to KL, I didn't see Arya there.

Her sister is on the dais with Cersei and co. as a hostage, she's expecting her father to be sent to the wall, Arya heard Joffery say his mother wants Ned sent to the wall, "and Lady Sansa has pleaded for mercy "..... Illyn bring me his head", she also saw her sister, being held back, by a KG, screaming, then fall passed out on the dais, but Arya takes this as the actions of a traitor?

The girl has poor vision and lacks hearing and a serious lack of discerning what she sees.

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13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Ok, another question. Why was Jon the only one carrying a wight killing weapon?  It seems pretty stupid not to.

Actually, Jon was the only one not carrying a wight killing weapon. He had a WW killing weapon - Longclaw. That's why he and Jorah were fighting together. Jon would take them down and Jorah would kill them. If you watch carefully, Jorah abandons his sword and takes out some dragon glass daggers. Beric's flaming sword was super effective as well.

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1 minute ago, anamika said:

Actually, Jon was the only one not carrying a wight killing weapon. He had a WW killing weapon - Longclaw. That's why he and Jorah were fighting together. Jon would take them down and Jorah would kill them. If you watch carefully, Jorah abandons his sword and takes out some dragon glass daggers. Beric's flaming sword was super effective as well.

Ahh ok thanks. I need to pay more attention.

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18 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

Well, yeah, actually, sort of. First of all she was talking to Jacquen at that point, so she could have asked, but I'm sure there's some equaivalent to rat poison around.  Not that hard.

Right.  She's a captive at Harrenhall, but just goes to find some rat poison, because we know for certain there are rats there......because, there are big old honkin' rats used to torture people.  Place the rat in a bucket,  on someone's stomach, and light the bucket on fire to make the rat eat their way out, to make the person talk.

Seriously, Arya had no idea what the Faceless Men were in Harrenhall.  So, which one of her captors is she going to ask for the rat poison?  The rat torture peeps?

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4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I was talking about Arya stealing a message from the Lannisters. Armory Loch discovered it and that's why she had to ask Jaqen to kill him in a hurry. I seem to remember that the disappearance of said message eventually helped Robb, but even if my memory is faulty on that last point, it shows that Arya used her position to actively work against the Lannisters, took the risks and didn't meekly serve Tywin Lannister while tak

No , since I didn't drink the LF kool-aid and I don't believe for a second that Brienne would have to fight Arya.

First, because Arya is a stealth assassin. If she took Sansa down, she would use her faces and her poison. She wiped off the Frey who murdered her family in their stronghold. The deed would be done and no one would be able to do a thing about it. There would be no choice at all to face.

Second because in my opinion, LF underestimated one person, one thing, and one feeling. Brienne of Tarth, Brienne of Tarth's stubborn loyalty, and Brienne of Tarth's desire to chew him and spit him back like the Hound's ear. Sansa knows Brienne better, she knows all that, and she knows that Brienne's loyalty goes to Catelyn first and foremost. She would not touch a hair of any of Catelyn's daughters and certainly not based on hearsay or "concerns".

I believe it's ambiguous on purpose, but to me sending Brienne away is a sign that Sansa is actually tempted to get rid of Arya, At least at that point, and because she was a threat to her position, and to the alliance.

I would have rather have Sansa have the decency to be thankful and respectful of a woman who saved her life.

I respectfully disagree. 

This is a student of 6 years going against her teacher, Arya is not even taken this class.

Arya's classes are a course from murder inc.

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This was an good episode. Was it Hardhome or Field of fire 2.0? No. But it still was pretty exciting. I've learned to not give much thought to the timing of events. It has actually helped me to imagine D&D with a big remote fastfowarding to the important parts of the story.

I loved the dialogue between all of the "ice avengers". It was a good mix of humor and realistic interactions. 

I do feel they are creating forced drama with the Stark siblings but I am willing to give the writers a pass because of the good faith they have earned from past seasons. 

I'll admit that I might be a little biased because I feel I've become an Emilia defender, but I  thought that her acting was superb this entire episode.  I loved the range of emotions she displayed when Viserion went down. She went from confused, to in shock, to anger in a matter of seconds. She didn't have much time to focus on his death then because she was so  focused on saving the squad, but she gave me enough to deeply feel her pain in that moment.  Her best acting in seasons came in the boat scene though. She was heartbroken.  Although she had tears, and her voice broke, she fought off breaking down in front of Jon several times. She came across as deeply defeated.  I've always felt  the chemistry from Kit and Emilia but tonight it was blazing. I think the main thing that took their chemistry to new heights was now Jon is completely on board. To me it seems that Dany was already there, but now the KITN wants a Boo in the North. I've never seen Kit give "bedroom eyes" so well. 

Also, the CG is still by far the best in television. It even tops many movies. It makes me wonder who else besides HBO can put this type of money into a tv show? Maybe Netflix. 

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Arya has become one creepy pod person.  I was never her biggest fan, but what the fuck is going on with her this season?  She's almost as detached as Bran, and all she wants to do is kill someone.  It's disturbing, but I guess that's the point.   I mean, it's not like you can be trained by a league of creepy, faceless assassins and not be screwed up for life.  I gets it.

Edited by Sweet Summer Child
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1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

per book or GRRM, they communicate, but human's can't understand.

Maybe Missandi has theirs in one of her 19 languages.

Which makes me wonder how he forged the deal with Crastor. 

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1 hour ago, crowceilidh said:

I also thought Jon was resurrected again.  That was a long time to stay in freezing water.

I heard the same deep gasp as when he was resurrected when he woke up on the ship, too.

28 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

So was the Night's King a greenseer before he was turned? Is that why he could see Bran that time? Wait, if Hardhome was preplanned then why was did the Night's King seem so surprised about Jon taking out one of his guys? Wouldn't he have already seen that coming? 

I'm intrigued by this idea though. OTOH if he's able to see into the future then isn't that even more of a reason that he should have aimed the spear at Drogon since he was carrying one of the candidates for the Prince/Princess who was promised? 

This would though explain why the Walkers and wights were just content to wait it out even though they had Jon & co surrounded. The Night's King could have killed them all by just throwing spears at them since they had no place to go. Hmm. 

I wonder if Benjen's blood has anything to do with why he didn't become a wight.

I think so, but from what we've seen, they don't get a clear view of the future. So, he may have known that they would meet at Hardhome, and win, but maybe not that Jon was in the Night's Watch with a Valyrian steel sword, rather that just a wildling.

Just now, AuntieMame said:

I loved it too. I was looking at it trying to figure out how they made it. At first I thought some of it was felting but now I'm convinced it was all fur pieced together very intricately. I want to make a modified verse. If I could get the pelts. And if fur wasn't evil. The costumers on this show are so, so amazing.

I think it was shaved/cut/trimmed fur, rather than pieced. I think you could use good faux fur, although the Ikea hides would probably be cheaper than the nice stuff (the last I bought was sheared beaver at $60 per yard, and the longer stuff was a lot more). Also yay fellow sewist!

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Count me in with those who noticed how good Daeneryus' winter coat looked.  She is so young.  I'm an old bugger now, but it reminded me of how beautiful my high school girlfriend used to look in her winter coat many years ago.  

Sad to see what happened to Viserion.

There seemed to be some romantic chemistry going on between Jon and Dany there for a short while, but Dany seemed to withdraw.  My first thought was that either she senses they are related and that there is something wrong (although that makes no sense for Targaryeans).  Or that she lost attraction for him once he volunteered to bend the knee.  Oh well, I guess we'll find out.

What is the deal with Uncle Benjen?  This guy just lives out in the winter waste on his own for months at a time, just waiting for opportune times to make an appearance?  He's like a McGuffin that gets pulled out when needed.

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3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Sansa is inconsistent as usual. Last season she was lecturing Davos on how superior northerners are to everyone else and how they're "more loyal" than the average and now it seems like she doesn't trust the Vale guys or the northmen. 

It makes zero sense to me why Sansa is willing to confide in Littlefinger as opposed to Brienne. It's like she doesn't want Brienne to see her in a bad light. 

So much of this. What the hell was that tone? I was suffering from secondhand embarrassment during that scene. So snotty and rude and patronizing. And she's asking this woman to do her a favor by heading into the snakepit of King's Landing! Unbelievable. She has an attitude because Brienne suggests leaving Pod behind? Was Sansa just not talking about how she's unsure of the loyalty of the men? JFC Sansa is a frustrating character.  

Sansa keeps repeating that she isn't a child but she certainly knows how to act like one. 

She was stating what she always heard her father say she believed him, she also did not know the extent of the harm Robb's actions had done. That's not inconsistent , it's not being around Robb or not having the info we have.

LF all ready knew everything she said, she's not confiding in him, he was there, and he's stirring the pot and she knows it. Confiding in him would be to tell him something he doesn't know; Like I'm sending Lady Tarth away.

That tone is a young woman saving another woman's honor, Lf gave it away  when he brought up Brieenes vows; she's using his lessons against him.

She's acting like the player she's trained to be, what she's written to be.

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I kept thinking that those white walkers got that chain from the battle of Blackwater Bay, the one that Tyrion had forged when he was Joffrey's hand.

It at least appears that Arya is right, that Sansa is stupid.  She is still letting herself be manipulated by the game players around her, in this case Littlefinger.  I hope that there is more going on under the surface than appears though.

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8 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Which makes me wonder how he forged the deal with Crastor. 

I think it's part of the legend or maybe knowledge from beginning of time, honestly don't know.

We need Missandi to talk to them.

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14 minutes ago, rmontro said:

What is the deal with Uncle Benjen?  This guy just lives out in the winter waste on his own for months at a time, just waiting for opportune times to make an appearance?  He's like a McGuffin that gets pulled out when needed.

Deus Ex Machina Uncle Benjen turning up every now and then to save the Starks did become ridiculously silly.

tumblr_o8cqbeZdLd1uv3adwo1_500.gif

 

But he is finally dead, closing that plot.  David and Dan called him Cold Hands in the 'Inside the episode' - I think GRRM explicitly mentioned that Benjen was not Cold Hands.

Anyways, that's the last of the elder Stark Siblings. Farewell Benjen Stark. And now his watch has ended.

Edited by anamika
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Just now, GrailKing said:

I think it's part of the legend or maybe knowledge from beginning of time, honestly don't know.

We need Missandi to talk to them.

Maybe Bran can google it. 

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8 minutes ago, rmontro said:

What is the deal with Uncle Benjen?  This guy just lives out in the winter waste on his own for months at a time, just waiting for opportune times to make an appearance?  He's like a McGuffin that gets pulled out when needed.

Deus ex machina. There have been a few of those.

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3 hours ago, SeanC said:

That's not inconsistent.  She thought Northerners were more loyal; Season 6 showed they weren't, so she now thinks they're shitheels, which they are.

Wind vanes indeed.

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3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

whatever that little rat-torture guys name was. 

Tickler, that was for Gendry, her friend, quite in character actually.

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2 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I like Arya and Sansa both, and they both annoyed the heck out of me this episode.  

Me too.  This makes me so mad.  I've waited for years for them to be reunited and what I get is this mess.  And I could even get behind it, if it were written better, but this is a mess that is basically just coming out of left field.

One day Arya is going in for the 2nd hug on Sansa.  Next episode she already distrusts Sansa with no build up at all.

It's like how Bran went from normal to robot with no transition at all.

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18 minutes ago, anamika said:

Anyways, that's the last of the elder Stark Siblings. Farewell Benjen Stark. And now his watch has ended.

Technically Benjen's watch had already ended, which was probably even more tragic than this. Even when he died he couldn't really get peace, and it occurred to me while watching that the wights probably wouldn't kill him again, but that the Walkers would probably fully overtake whatever control he'd managed to wrest away. So he's probably a full-fledged wight now. Just in case everyone wasn't already sad enough over Viserion's death.

EDIT: And it also occurred to me that he deliberately stayed back in order to give Jon the opening he needed. Ben + Jon on the horse = the horse gets swamped in three minutes. Jon on the horse + Ben swinging his awesome lantern of death = the wights swarm Ben while Jon gets away.

Edited by DigitalCount
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Is it weird that after this episode, part of me is hoping during the next Sansa-Arya scene, Arya suddenly pulls her face off and reveals that she's been the Waif all along? 

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Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it

Ice Ice Dragon (Viserion)

Ice Ice Dragon (Viserion)

Now that this battle is jumping

With the magic kicked in, the Night King is pumpin’

Ice Ice Dragon

Ice Ice Dragon

(It was Viserion, right?)

Also, count me annoyed, irritated and generally discontent with the Arya/Sansa plot.  Blech.  These people have a terminal case of the Stupids and need a strong dose of common sense.  If you're not going to, you know, talk to each other, why not check the Westeros Interwebs hanging out under the weirwood tree?  Although I have to hand it to Maisie Williams who played that scene so well, I actually hated her character for a few seconds there.  (And, er, I may have been scared of her.  A little bit.) 

Amazing how those Redshirts Redpelts conveniently popped out of nowhere ... I did see a few Wildings straggling along out of the tunnel at the end of the last episode but the camera forgot them wholly with the Seven Snomurai shot.  Alas, Redpelts, we hardly knew ye. 

And no Cersei this episode! Yay!

Ice Ice Dragon

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3 hours ago, britesongs said:

Yeah, pretty sure Littlefinger "sent" that letter just to get Brienne away. After that conversation about the banner men being like weather vanes and being concerned about them sticking around? He knew Sansa would stay and send Brienne in her stead since Brienne is the only one she knows is 100% loyal to her.

I considered that also, but he needs Arya out of the way, dead, in jail won't matter, isolate Sansa and neutralize Arya, by using Brieene as his pawn.

Brieene be shattered, Arya is out of the way and he's there to pick up a shattered Sansa.

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2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

She totally misrepresented what happened at the Battle of the Bastards.

But also remember that no one is giving credit to Sansa at all, other than Jon.  As far as anyone else is concerned, Jon rode down from castle black and won the battle.  That's what Hot Pie tells Arya.  So it appears the narrative that people are saying is that Jon had no help and Sansa gets no credit, so of course she might be a bit upset about it.  She and the Vale Knights aren't even mentioned.

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4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Sansa's default is to act snotty whenever she's threatened. She was incredibly snotty with both Shae and Theon (well she had good reason with Theon) until she needed them, and then she begged for their help. All the characters in GoT revert to an incredibly annoying stance when they're threatened. Dany starts listing her resume again, and bragging about her dragons. Cersei kills people. Arya kills people. Jon Snow launches incredibly noble but stupid plans. It;s just one of those things.

She never begged for Shae's help, Shae freely gave it, she freely help try to flip the bed, she freely went and threaten the hand maiden, she freely lied about Sansa and Tyrion and she freely chose to bed Tywin Lannister and name him her Lion. As for being snotty with her, she just came from dinner where Tommen asked if Joffery was going to kill her brother; Cerseis catty reply " he might, would you like that" Tommen said no, and Cersei said Sansa will do her duty.

Being reminded her family is being killed, understandable she be bitchy, especially to someone she never knew and a possible new Cersei spy.

From this POV she was in the right to feel that way.

4 hours ago, Francie said:

Oh, I momentarily forgot the best part of the show --

Drogon zigged!  

(Or did he zag?)

I thought it was a pitch and roll, someone forgot to tell Jorah to hold on.

Edited by GrailKing
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2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

As I said in an earlier episode thread, Sansa probably deserved to be called out but the way she did it was disturbing. People going on about Sansa being rude to Brienne. Arya was calmly and coldly telling her own sister she was going to cut off and wear her face! Deliberately frightening her and enjoying it!  This isn't her avenging her family against the Freys. I'm not going to root for her this time. Telling that heartwarming story about Ned for the punchline that it was Sansa's fault he died? WTF? Even she knew Jon would be more understanding about the letter. Arya doesn't care that turning the lords against Sansa would hurt Jon too. Arya despises Sansa not for her snobby attitude.  She despises her for being "weak" and I think that's why some fans hate her too.

Yes.  Be mad at first.  Listen to Sansa explain and everything.  But Arya didn't even care.  She even seemed happy to imagine the things that happened to Sansa over the years.  I mean even robot Bran at least said he was sorry for what happened to her.

Like, how do you come back from that?  How do you come back from a point where your sister appears to enjoy knowing that you suffered at the hands of Cersei, Joffery and Ramsay?

And for the flip side, while Arya is jumping to conclusions about Sansa.  When Sansa finds a bag full of skinned faces in Arya's room, she at least asks Arya to explain, instead of running out of the room yelling that Arya is a crazed killer.  I think that's what I would have done.

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4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I almost forgot this.  So apparently this entire thing is going to come down to a plot cribbed from The Lost Boys.  Kill the head vampire, er Night King, and they all die.

Except instead of putting a stake in the heart, you got to take one out; make him human then kill him.

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Mixed feelings on a mixed episode:

Fellowship of the Wight may have been unnecessary if they were following the books, because Jon had been keeping some on ice, to study, at the Wall. OTOH, doing it this way allowed all sorts of scariness and drama, and a way to get Viserion into NK's hands (*sniff*). Thank goodness for the entertaining character moments between the men, for comic relief. Ship Briemond had better sail in Season 8, otherwise Tomund is being set up to play the fool for more comic relief, but it's having the opposite effect on me - stop talking about it, already. Benjen: We shall not see his like again. Beric: will he get to throw a flaming sword at Viserion in the future? Or will it be the Hound?

And where DID those chains come from? Ace Hardware Beyond The Wall?

Tyrion needs to form his OWN plan, for what to do in case Dany fails or dies before she can take the throne. I get that he's scared for his own life and wants to secure a future but history has many conquerors who didn't have heirs when they went after crowns, or had an heir but lost them to death. English history, alone, is littered with spares and usurpers taking power. Not all heirs were welcome (the Princes in the Tower). But the conversation did serve to give a little shove-off for GRRMS Jonerys.

Speaking of which, weren't they cute? Dany coming to the rescue in her awesome winter white coat? Realizing that Davos wasn't exaggerating about Jon taking one for the team. And Jon virtually bending the knee and all.

Arya/Sansa was a good idea that was treated badly. Too much short-handing, I think, of issues and backstory that deserved a longer stretch. I've seen it explained outside of the episode, in magazine articles, that LF recognized Arya's "no one" as FM talk and set out to set her up via visual cues, because he knew she would be onto him if he lied to her or tried to directly manipulate her. So let's say they botched that. As for Arya bitching out Sansa for her behavior during Season 1 — it's long past due that someone put it on the table. Their relationship will never become close if they sweep everything under the rug. Just because Sansa later became traumatized by events doesn't mean she gets a pass for life, on being called out on her contributions to those events.

Starting with the way she treated Ned once he decided she might do better than Joffrey. Remember the doll Ned gave her, that she pretty much threw in his face? You see that doll in Season 6, IIRC, hanging on a vanity or some such, a visual cue to the remorse that she has never expressed. And when Arya opened the conversation in this show, Sansa could have done that, but instead chose to switch topic to her being Savior Of Winterfell. The surprise was that Arya decided to trust her, and hand her the knife. Also thought it was interesting how Maise reverted to her more high-pitched, little girl delivery in that conversation. Perhaps the point was to show them both regressing. (These contrivances have been going on all season.) I do give Sansa a pass on her treatment of Brienne; she could have done it with more tact, but Brienne DID pledge to serve - that means shutting up and taking orders from a 20 YO.

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3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

But we were shown from Arya's training that the faceless man magic was more like practical tricks, different than LoF magic.   Arya may wear the mask but she still needs to act like the person she is copying

They've been all over the place with how the Faceless Men faces work. Remember Jaquen moving his hands over his face to change when he and Arya part ways at Harrenhal. 

Then there was the discussion about the face changing and/or glamouring the body when Arya killed the male Freys. 

It seems that the FM magic is both physical (in that it requires the face) and magical (in that it changes the entire body at least to observers) but neither book nor show has been explicit or consistent with it. Clearly it isn't just a tanned face as mask because people would notice that. Come to think of it, when Arya was threatening Sansa she did say "I wonder how that would feel. All those pretty dresses. It seems that the FM magic affects the user at least some too. 

Which brings me to: I hate the way Arya is acting. Mostly I think all of the women are inconsistent tropes because none of the writers can write a woman but this is just all bad. Sansa did try to explain. She wrote the letter under duress. At the execution she was a hostage. And Ned being actually executed was a surprise to everyone. 

As for Sansa's original mistake in going to Cersei when Ned wanted to leave Kings Landing, Sansa was a naive, sheltered romantic who literally couldn't conceive of an adult who ultimately meant her harm. 

People act like she knew the consequences of running to Cersei and did it knowingly. Sansa thought nothing worse than young love would triumph and hold hands. She did what Ned and Cat raised her to do....saw her main value and social acceptance as tied up in her value as a marriage trade. Yes, after the events on the road she should have had some pause but thought those were aberrations in Cersei and Joffrey, not their true faces. And who hasn't made that mistake?

Sansa could have the most interesting arc, transforming bitter pain and experience into knowledge and wisdom if only a decent writer capitalized on things that appear accidental in her development. 

I used to like Arya but this doesn't feel right. The whole nice things/pretty dresses line that Arya is pushing seems petty in the extreme. I understand that family dynamics aren't fixed in a day but both sisters are lucky to have survived and still under mortal threat. People tend to put things aside at the very least under these circumstances. 

Until now, Arya has been written as the tomboy. A female character who is "good" because she embraces the martial virtues. Her line about the pretty handwriting and being punished in the schoolroom and Arya's entire attitude during the last few episodes reeks of jealousy and neither the book or the show ever gave us the idea that Arya envied Sansa. Bad, inconsistent character development to no clear end. Just sigh. 

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4 hours ago, anamika said:

Yeah, no. In the inside the episode, they mention that LF is expertly manipulating her by stoking her fears that Arya is going to harm her. She sends Brienne away because she thinks that Brienne would side with Arya against her. Just the opposite of what you are saying.

Besides, why the hell does she not confide in Brienne about the situation, tell her about the letter and ask her to go talk to Arya about the situation. Why not tell Brienne, who continues to be wary of LF, that LF gave Arya the letter?

It's a shitty plot that makes both Arya and Sansa look like selfish idiots who can solve this in one episode with Bran and Brienne's help.

I don't think, she believe Brieene side with Arya, I think she feel she uphold her vow as her sworn sword, giving LF what he wants, Brieene and Arya out of the way.

Arya's not going to believe anyone Sansa sends, except Bran

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Benjen saving Jon is not Deux Ex-Machina at all.

Benjen noticing the Night King making the Wights Army go to Eastwatch (or somewhere near) for several weeks surely made him to go there and check why and, as someone said somewhere, 3 big dragons in the sky that anyone can see flying miles away also is a giant sign something very strange is happening there.

So, again not Deux Ex-Machina at all.

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1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

She was stating what she always heard her father say she believed him, she also did not know the extent of the harm Robb's actions had done. That's not inconsistent , it's not being around Robb or not having the info we have.

LF all ready knew everything she said, she's not confiding in him, he was there, and he's stirring the pot and she knows it. Confiding in him would be to tell him something he doesn't know; Like I'm sending Lady Tarth away.

That tone is a young woman saving another woman's honor, Lf gave it away  when he brought up Brieenes vows; she's using his lessons against him.

She's acting like the player she's trained to be, what she's written to be.

Thank you~ I saw the same thing. I saw the student taking a page out of the teacher's book and utilizing it against him. He doesn't know he's being played because she's keeping all parties unaware of what she's really thinking..She's playing along with how they expect her to react.

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4 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

So Dany's objection to marrying Jon is that he's too little?  (Yes, I get the joke, Kit is short).  But  was she really making a comment about his physical size or what is she really saying?  KitN is not royal enough for her?  Who would be?  If that comment had no double meaning, then I am super unimpressed.

That one.

She must not know just how far back the Starks go, nor does she know just about any house would tie with them.

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24 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

And where DID those chains come from? Ace Hardware Beyond The Wall?

If I remember correctly, I think from the Giants. We saw them in 4x09. Someone mentioned that and I agree

Edited by OhOkayWhat
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4 hours ago, GraceK said:

I really want Cersei to be dragon food by the end of this series. 

I want Arya to bring Winter to her, like she did  Walder Frey.

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2 hours ago, that one guy said:

Gotta disagree with you there. I live in Chicago - when we get really cold winters, the surface of Lake Michigan freezes maybe a quarter mile, maybe half a mile out. And snow settles on it, and it looks like a solid surface. And every time this happens, some dumbass walks out onto the ice, and falls through, and dies. It can be sub-zero temperatures, wind chill of -30, but don't walk on the ice, it will kill you. When the surface freezes, water underneath stays liquid even at freezing temperatures, because the unique molecular structure of water means it expands when it freezes, so it won't freeze if there's no room.

My grandparents had a house on Lake Michigan. I remember this and remember being explicitly warned every Year, not only to not deliberately walk on the ice but to keep my eyes open and my wits about me and make certain I didn't accidentally get fooled by the snow cover and stray from shore. Ice on large bodies of water is treacherous and deceptive.

Edited by AuntieMame
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