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S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

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1 hour ago, Francie said:

Was that Tyrion's plan? I thought it was Jon's. And exchanging one wight for one dragon is not exactly a great trade. 

Okay, no one here is stupid enough to think that Cersei's gonna change her gameplan upon seeing the wight.  Why are all the people who actually know her even more blind to that? 

Even if you can't convince Cersei, you can convince those who follow her and support her. Most people follow her out of fear. Those who don't fear her but support her (I'm eyeing you, Jaime) might be convinced to turn against her.

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26 minutes ago, that one guy said:

It was only after reading your comment that I realized what meeting she's talking about. The letter is from Dany or Tyrion, it's the big Dragonpit meeting re: the wight, and John is a dick for not telling Sansa about this plan.

Why would Dany or Tyrion invite her to the meeting?  She's Jon's viceroy in the North; there's no need for her to be at the meeting, because Jon will be there.

Granted, I don't know why Cersei would either.

34 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sansa really never got on with any of her siblings, particularly the younger ones, and I think Robb was probably the only one she deigned to tolerate.  (RIP Robb and Rickon). 

That is not true at all.  She had entirely normal sibling relationships with everybody other than Arya and Jon.

23 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

She totally misrepresented what happened at the Battle of the Bastards. Sansa still doesn't own up to the fact that she withheld vital information that might have ended up saving people's lives. We'll never know how it would have gone had she trusted Jon. 

You'd have thought that Sansa was out there fighting by the way that she was telling Arya to get on her knees in gratitude. Sansa wasn't even successful when it came to negotiating with the northern lords. She gave Lyanna Mormont some false flattery and got her empty compliments thrown back in her fact. Davos actually made decent and persuasive arguments to the northerners when they were trying to get help and Sansa was totally dismissive of that. This episode made it seem like she feels that she's made more of a contribution than Jon has and I'm just thinking 'In what universe?'

Sansa didn't say anything about the Northern lords.  She said that Jon lost the battle and that she won it by getting the Knights of the Vale to come.  Which is what happened, and Jon said the exact same thing in 610.

Yes, she also didn't tell Jon about it for...some reason, but the show's writers clearly don't think that's a big deal beyond showing they had trust issues.

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1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I guess lost in all this death and dying is that Jorah must feel another 1,000 deaths that Dany once again has the hots for someone that;s not him.

Maybe not.  Jorah didn't think Daario was worthy of Dany, and Daario taunted Jorah.  Jorah seems to respect Jon and understand his part in strengthening Dany's plans. 

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This was one of the most visually stunning episodes they have ever done. So beautiful that it almost makes me forget how monumentally dumb it is.

 Tormund and the Hound got great dialogue, Beric and Jon could talk about once being dead and Jorah could drop anvils about possible babies for Jon Snow, but the wight mission remains  stupid and I'm not sure how anyone can see Jon Snow as a competent leader anymore.. And now they are down a dragon.

 

Dany saying that "Drogo, Daario, Jorah and Jon Snow- all crazy fighting men." Like they are all the same- I can't think of four characters less alike than any of those guys. Has she actually met any of these dudes? It was all so Tyrion could say Jon Snow is in love with her and she could deny it and then start thinking it. Tyrion says that he stares at her, when he hasn't really until this episode when he called her his queen and takes her hand.  Bad writing, show. They are both attractive, but this rushed season hasn't earned any of this. And that's setting aside all the incest stuff, which still not sure what the show wants me to think about it. 

And on that note, congrats Jon Snow: you are now officially as dumb as your brother Robb. Giving up your power because you fancy a girl. I know it's been like, 5 seasons since you've seen a girl not a foot taller than you, but seriously. There was no need to bend the knee there. She's on your side now and she's seen your abs. She should be pissed at you for that mission and the death of her child and instead she's all a flutter.

But, YOU KNOW NOTHING, JON SNOW. The Night King should resurrect Ygritte so she can once again school your ass on that fact.

 Still, beautiful to look at. Those winter shots in the mountains. Gorgeous. The dragons look gorgeous. The hauling of the dead dragon out of the water with (very convenient) chains was gorgeous. The coat Dany wore was great, but hilarious. "I have to go North, Tyrion. I got this coat made and I need to show it off." 

And yeah, I'll keep watching because I might as well but the show runners are really losing it. 

Edited by Pogojoco
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11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I keep coming back to Varys' words to Tyrion, "You need to find a way to make her listen" in the last ep.

Something is just really off with that scene, because here we have Tyrion using reverse psychology on Dany ("do nothing!"), making her think about heirs while the same time he's telling her that Jon is giving her longing looks (since when?)

My spec is that the wight hunt was about convincing Dany, and Cersei was just secondary collateral. Tyrion found a way to make her listen. But at the cost of empowering the enemy. 

That wasn't reverse psychology, he's legit worried about her dying.

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1 hour ago, anamika said:

The point is that Arya was in disguise under Tywin acting as a cupbearer. Tywin did not have her writing letters to Robb or know who she was. She did not betray her family and write letters asking them to bend the knee. According to Arya, Sansa did. So I don't see the relevance between Arya's stint as Tywin's cupbearer and Sansa's time in KL where it looked like she was actively working against her family by writing the letter. As Arya knows, Sansa has already done this once before.

If Arya was such a Freakin hero, she would have killed Tywin Lannister, the head of the snake. But she was also a scared little girl.

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17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

My spec is that the wight hunt was about convincing Dany, and Cersei was just secondary collateral. Tyrion found a way to make her listen. But at the cost of empowering the enemy.

Disagree.  One quick recon flight should have been enough to convince Dany that there was indeed a big army of what looked like (from 1000 feet up) dead folks, plus some guys on horses.  Seems like that would have been enough, plus there would have been no need for Jon to go all dumb-ass and get a dragon killed. 

17 minutes ago, britesongs said:

But then the second one fell short and shit backfired in a bad, bad way.

True, but it did highlight how dumb this all was in so many ways.  A lake with thin ice?  When winter is in full swing?  Also, pretty heads-up for the dead to realize the ice was now solid enough to cross.  And if you're thinking it was the Night King who realized it and set the dead in motion, why did he wait in the first place?  Don't the WWs bring the cold with them?  Why didn't he just freeze everything up nice and firm in the hours and days of the standoff?  

Not for nothing, but if I'm standing there for days freezing my ass off, I'm at least gonna warm my hands over Dondarrion's flaming sword.  Light 'er up, Beric.  

Edited by henripootel
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11 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm hoping the point of Brienne's absence will be the Stark girls being forced to rely on each other.  Perhaps in the delightful task of killing LF. I just can't bear this distrust going into next season. We just saw a group of men from all walks of life band together for a common purpose.  Yet two females, sisters at that, cannot put their differences aside for the common purpose of protecting what's left of their family?  It's the old stereotype that women are too jealous and petty to work together.  Plus it perpetuates the Sansa versus Arya debate in fandom.  I root for them both. 

Last few years has dealt with trust, Jon trusting her to run the North is a huge boost, but Jon's has no anger in him like Arya, this is her biggest test, if she fails she'dead and the last moments of her life would be a catastrophic horror. For Arya too.

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1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

The WW aren't zombies, they're living thinking beings, they could have brought them from Hardhome, they planned and lured the 7+redshirts to that spot.

And since they made that deal with Crastor, I'm assuming they speak. Wonder if we will see that. 

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4 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Maybe not.  Jorah didn't think Daario was worthy of Dany, and Daario taunted Jorah.  Jorah seems to respect Jon and understand his part in strengthening Dany's plans. 

Poor Jorah first he loses his family sword to Jon, now his woman. Poor guys can't catch a break.

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1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Poor Jorah first he loses his family sword to Jon, now his woman. Poor guys can't catch a break.

And his niece prefers Jon, too!  

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I should be embarrassed to ask...but besides Thoros, who died? Was it Beric?  So Tormund, Jorah, Jon, and the Hound survive, with Gentry safe at Eastwatch? Thanks for the help.

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1 minute ago, RedheadZombie said:

And since they made that deal with Crastor, I'm assuming they speak. Wonder if we will see that. 

per book or GRRM, they communicate, but human's can't understand.

Maybe Missandi has theirs in one of her 19 languages.

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1 hour ago, anamika said:

Also the Sansa who thinks Cersei is not to be trusted at all and is going to murder them all in their beds has no issues trusting in Cersei's letter and sending Brienne off to meet her?

Cersei doesn't want Brienne dead though and Brienne was already there in KL when Sansa was there at the purple wedding and Brienne was not in danger from Cersei, eventhough she was sent there to bring Sansa back by Catelyn.  So you'd think Cersei would have blamed her or suspected her when Joffery died, but she didn't.

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1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

It's not bad enough that we lost Viserion, now we have an undead dragon to deal with. That's both sad and rock and roll. 

We also likely have an undead Hodor in our future

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I think I have to agree that the NK was prepared for the Dragons. The way they waited, with those ice spears...and did anyone else notice the look that passed between the NK and the WW who handed him the spear? It's like they were prepared , and if they were it makes a little more sense that they had those chains ready. I'm really starting to wonder just WHO this NK is.

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1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

I think Arya was spying on Tywin (or trying to), and she only realized too late that she SHOULD have asked J'quen Hagar to off Tywin, instead of Biter or whatever that little rat-torture guys name was. 

I, too, am tire of this stupid faux Sansa/Arya drama.

And for that matter, they should have just left Bran at the Wall until next season.  He's about as useful as a potato right now.   What great intel is he passing on to his family?  Or trying to teach the Lords of the Vale what he knows about Wights & White Walkers?  Tactics to kill them, etc.  STUPID, STUPID writing.

She was the CUPBEARER. Once she had his trust, poisoning his drink wouldn't have been that hard. What did she need Jaquen for?

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2 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Cersei doesn't want Brienne dead though and Brienne was already there in KL when Sansa was there at the purple wedding and Brienne was not in danger from Cersei, eventhough she was sent there to bring Sansa back by Catelyn.  So you'd think Cersei would have blamed her or suspected her when Joffery died, but she didn't.

Given Cersei's interaction with Brienne at the Purple Wedding, I think she'd kill anyone who she thought Jaime might respect, listen to or even love. It is a scene of remarkable shade and both Christie and Heady play it beautifully. Cersei starts very charming, shades her hard and then Brienne, sensing the direction this is going, books it. 

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

We also likely have an undead Hodor in our future

And maybe Summer, too. 

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31 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

So is the Night King the third head of the dragon? Does it mean that he is a secret Targaryan? ? 

Always hoped he was a secret Stark. On the show, as the first WW he was around before the Night's Watch. In the books he was the 13th Lord Commander who was thought to be a Stark, and one out there theory holds he was Bran the Builder who build both Storm's End and the Wall before turning Other. But in the books, he wasn't the first, he was turned by a woman Walker. In my mind he's still a Stark though.

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23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Sansa didn't say anything about the Northern lords.  She said that Jon lost the battle and that she won it by getting the Knights of the Vale to come.  Which is what happened, and Jon said the exact same thing in 610.

Because Jon tends to give credit where credits due, unlike Sansa who just dismissed the contributions and deaths of all those Wildlings and Northerners who fought for the Starks so that she could be lady of Winterfell. And where her lying about the Vale army because she wanted the credit led to the people who fought fought for the Starks dying. And why should Arya fall on her knees and thank her? Would not the Vale army have rode to Arya's rescue as well if she asked, since she is also Catelyn's daughter and Sweetrobin's cousin?

15 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

If Arya was such a Freakin hero, she would have killed Tywin Lannister, the head of the snake. But she was also a scared little girl.

Arya was not condemning Sansa for not going on a killing rampage against the Lannisters. She was accusing her of betraying her family. Which I admit was wrong and she should have realized that Sansa was also in a tough situation. But Arya's experiences with Sansa in KL were not great - Sansa supported Joffrey against her - and I can see why she might have thought that Sansa would have wrote the letter willingly.

6 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Cersei doesn't want Brienne dead though and Brienne was already there in KL when Sansa was there at the purple wedding and Brienne was not in danger from Cersei, eventhough she was sent there to bring Sansa back by Catelyn.  So you'd think Cersei would have blamed her or suspected her when Joffery died, but she didn't.

But Brienne is now going as Sansa's emissary. Which was not the case before when she took Jaime to KL.

And Sansa points out that Jaime will protect Brienne. How does she know that Jaime is still alive and be there to protect Brienne?

I am still not clear on why Cersei send the letter. Next episode could give us more info, but it could be LF sending that letter to get Brienne out of the way.

Edited by anamika
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2 hours ago, doram said:

Seriously! Gendry, Jon and the Hound are all connected through Arya but you'd never know from this episode. We're almost certain to go through the whole season without Jon once mentioning Aemon Targaryen to Dany. 

Also the Hound , Jon, LF  and Sansa you would think the little bird come up.

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3 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

She was the CUPBEARER. Once she had his trust, poisoning his drink wouldn't have been that hard. What did she need Jaquen for?

When and where did she conveniently find this poison?  Just walk up to the Maester at Harrenhall and say "excuse me sir, may I please have a dose of the Long Farewell?"  Because certainly all ten year old girls who have been kidnapped off the King's road carry around a bagful of poison, right?

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 So, my only thought when watching was... Where did they get those massive chains? I mean, really. This show was completely believable until that...

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Just now, that one guy said:

Always hoped he was a secret Stark. On the show, as the first WW he was around before the Night's Watch. In the books he was the 13th Lord Commander who was thought to be a Stark, and one out there theory holds he was Bran the Builder who build both Storm's End and the Wall before turning Other. But in the books, he wasn't the first, he was turned by a woman Walker. In my mind he's still a Stark though.

He's definitely a First Man in the show, which the Starks are descended from. 

I'm going with Stark, too. Stark it is. 

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1 hour ago, henripootel said:

Not if they don't start showing some sense.  Cercei will never support Dani's claim to the throne, not ever.  Even if she is persuaded that there's a monumental threat from the WWs, she's far more likely to let them wipe out Dani and Jon, then hope for the best.  I know that's ultimately crazy but at least she dies with her ass parked on the iron throne, the other way she just dies, or worse, is no longer queen. 

Also - Jon, dragon-glass tipped arrows.  Legolas would have ended the whole problem from that range but not everyone can shoot like an elf.  So get 1000 archers and rain arrows on the Night King.  It only takes one. 

I agree about Cersei. I think Dany and Jon aren't diabolical enough to fathom what she is capable of. Even Olenna, who did play the game much better than Jon or Dany, admitted she was blindsided by what Cersei thought up. My comment was more in relation to the NK and the WW. I think Dany and Jon together can inspire the bulk of Westeros to unite. Cersei will keep doing Cersei. I always assumed her character arc would end with this season with the NK as the final big bad.

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1 minute ago, anamika said:

Because Jon tends to give credit where credits due, unlike Sansa who just dismissed the contributions and deaths of all those Wildlings and Northerners who fought for the Starks so that she could be lady of Winterfell.

She didn't dismiss their contributions (indeed, she had a whole spiel about them the previous episode).  She said that they were getting their asses kicked and would have lost if not for the knights, which is true.

Quote

And where her lying about the Vale army because she wanted the credit led to the people who fought fought for the Starks dying.

I agree.  But the show evidently doesn't see it that way.

Quote

And why should Arya fall on her knees and thank her? Would not the Vale army have rode to Arya's rescue as well if she asked, since she is also Catelyn's daughter and Sweetrobin's cousin?

She didn't say that either, but Arya wasn't there and didn't bring them.  Sansa did.  Sansa's point was that she has made enormous contributions to retrieve Winterfell, and doesn't much care for Arya's vituperative accusations that she's a traitor.

Edited by SeanC
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I keep laughing about the thought of Arya cutting off Sansa's face and trying to pass herself off as Her Ladyship. She's a foot too short, but wouldn't Littlefinger get a huge surprise.

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35 minutes ago, britesongs said:

WHY THE HELL didn't everyone have dragon glass weapons? If that's the only other way to kill a WW besides Valyrian steel, they should have brought some of those weapons with them. Were they all too attached to their usual weapons or something? Who knows who would have had a crack at a WW? In the polar bear fight, Jon was the only one who could fight the WW and kill him. Dumbasses.

By the end fight, they all had dragonglass weapons except Beric and Jon. Jorah had two daggers (and killed the polar bear with one), Tormund swapped his metal axe for one with dragonglass pieces, and The Hound dropped Gendry's hammer and pulled out a obsidian hatchet and knife from his coat. The redcoats' spears had obsidian tips. 

Edited by scottiB · Reason: Jorah not Jonah
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Just now, WaltersHair said:

I keep laughing about the thought of Arya cutting off Sansa's face and trying to pass herself off as Her Ladyship. She's a foot too short, but wouldn't Littlefinger get a huge surprise.

In that regard she doesn't have a problem.  The mask transforms you whole body, physical characteristics included.

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2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

So the Night's King just told his wights to bring some big ass chains with them on the journey just in case? 

NK like Bran can see future events, they are intelligent beings, they lured the 7 to that spot, they were at Hardhome, everything is a mirror of Bran, they know each other.

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1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Maybe that's why, Sansa's fear is enough to know she's not playing Jon, if she gave any hint she was or if she cried and begged, I think Arya see that as a weakness or lies, and Sansa would be dead.

Exactly. If Sansa didn't believe she was doing the right thing for everyone, including Jon, she would have blinked, and ;looked like she was trying to get away with something. She lived because she played straight, the way her dad would have.

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2 hours ago, peggy06 said:

Those tomfool idiots got a dragon killed and gave the Night King his best weapon. I knew that plan to bring a wight back was stupid. I'm mad.

If Viserion takes Kings Landing and its Lannisters with it, I'm happy. That might also (eventually...season 7 will probably last months rather than days) keep the Valanquor's prophecy intact since she'd lose her 4th in utero. 

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In that regard she doesn't have a problem.  The mask transforms you whole body, physical characteristics included.

Oh, make that happen show. (apologies to the Sansa lovers)

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15 hours ago, Francie said:

Ahem. Syrio Forel, is not, I repeat, is not dead. 

My bad, oops. I remember now, we saw him in Braavos last season. Well, his shadow.

The following should probably go to the UO thread, but I actually appreciated the Sansa/Arya scenes, especially in hindsight. I floved everything else, loved loved loved this episode the way Tormund would love babies with Brienne and I can't yet gather my thoughts about it beyond WOW freaking WOW. But the Winterfell part was the most interesting character-wise. 

I liked that for now, the writing stays balanced. Both sisters had a POV, had a point at times, and both were wrong at one point, at least in my view. I don't think that any of them is outplaying LF for now, and I'm actually OK with it as long as Arya and Sansa both wake up before it's too late.

I did  wonder where it was going until Arya mentioned the game of faces. I finally understood that she was trying to unearth Sansa's "dark side" and push her to the limit in order to evaluate her. And boy did she succeed. At first, I seethed when Sansa talked about the Battle of the Bastards, or told Arya that she should thank her on her knees etc. but after all it was only normal that her S1 persona, which was pretty much the sum of her flaws, resurfaced at that point. It was the goal.  Of course, after how snotty and entitled she was, I wasn't sorry for her when Sansa found herself out of her depth with Arya, and off her high horse.

On the other hand, Sansa does try otherwise to overcome her flaws. She does thinks she should rule, she does think she might rule, but she's trying to be loyal to Jon. She was dismayed that her uncompromising little sister deemed her efforts insufficient, I could see her point. I could completely understand where she was coming from and how she would grow wary and afraid of Arya. Arya is a badass,  but she's also a very dangerous person if crossed. I like that it wasn't swept under the rugh, either.

Arya said it herself in this episode, "the rules were wrong"; so now she writes her own rules according to her own set of values, with loyalty to her pack as the most important one. She doubted that Sansa is part of that pack, she wanted to protect Jon. When Arya plays the game, Sansa isn't her sister and I believe she would have taken her out if necessary/if she wasn't part of the pack. Maisie Williams' acting was so spot on when Sansa said that Arya had no idea of what she went through. Arya's mask cracked when she pondered aloud that it must have been a lot, before she "put on the face" of the prosecutor again. One of her flaws is overconfidence and it was also present here. Giving the dagger to Sansa seems to indicate that the game is over in her mind, but is it for Sansa? She was frightened for her life and wasn't given an explanation that makes sense to her. With LF whispering in Sansa's ear, well, not a good plan.

There were also interesting implied or explicit parallels. Arya didn't mention that a big scary man prevented her from her suicidal dash to rescue Ned, whereas Sansa was prevented from a similar suicidal move (throwing Joffrey off the bridge) by a big scary man, too. Arya's distrust could serve Cersei, just like Sansa relying once more on Littlefinger could. And anger vs fear was an excellent image of the their respective psyche  imo.

There are two major flaws for me, though:

-Littlefinger, especially if things go his way. He shouldn't be the catalyst of the conflict. Outsneaking Arya cheapens her training, manipulating Sansa cheapens her growth. He hasn't been truly relevant in the game since he gave Lancel to Olenna back in S5 imo.

-They should have kept Sansa revealing Ned's plan to Cersei on the show. If would be a sounder basis for Arya's distrust because Sansa did it on her own free will. I never understood why it wasn't included.

Would I prefer the Stark sisters to not revert to their childhood personas, and to find an understanding easily? Probably. Would I like both of them to be more reasonable? Certainly. Would I love it if both were more sweetly sympathetic? Oh yeah. But they have different tempers, different values, and underwent different trials and tribulations. A clash was unavoidable. I just hope it leads them to grow out of it.

Edited by Happy Harpy · Reason: Because insomnia and decent syntax don't go hand in hand.
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8 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 So, my only thought when watching was... Where did they get those massive chains? I mean, really. This show was completely believable until that...

Heh.

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2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

. Brienne pledged loyalty to Catelyn but to Sansa she's essentially a stranger. Her trust in LF makes more sense because he's been with her for so long. That's really what it boils down to.

Ok, but that only makes sense if Sansa believes that LF didn't know about Ramsay.  And all indications we have gotten through dialog and actions is that she doesn't believe LF when he claims he didn't know about Ramsay. 

And all the dialog we've gotten since Sansa escaped Ramsay is that you can't trust LF. 

We've gotten no indication at all that she doesn't trust Brienne though.  So she can only be sending Brienne away for one of the following 3 reasons:

1. She's doing it to keep Brienne from trying to fight Arya and dying.

2. She's doing it, so that she doesn't stop Sansa from killing Arya.

3. She's doing it because GRRM told the showrunners it happens in the books and they've written themselves into a corner and have to keep the scene in the tv show, although it makes no sense.  It's just a repeat of the Sansa doesn't tell Jon about the Vale, because it'll be a surprise in the books, because Sansa isn't in the North yet in the books rule.]

Also, good job Bran on keeping your sisters up to date on all the knowledge you supposedly have.

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9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She didn't dismiss their contributions (indeed, she had a whole spiel about them the previous episode).  She said that they were getting their asses kicked and would have lost if not for the knights, which is true.

She did dismiss their contributions when she did not acknowledge their efforts, dismissing it with a 'they lost and the knights of the vale rode for me'. When has she ever mentioned the Wildlings? Did she acknowledge that it was Wun Wun who broke down the door and got them inside to take down Ramsay?

If she expects Arya to get down on her knees and thank her for that, then surely she should acknowledge that it was a group effort. That men fought and died for them including Wildlings who were only there for Jon.

Otherwise she should have just got the knights of the Vale from LF in episode 5 last season and done it herself instead of getting all those loyal men killed unnecessarily.

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She didn't say that either, but Arya wasn't there and didn't bring them.  Sansa did.

Did she mention that it was LF who brought them there? She bragged about it like she personally rallied the Vale troops and brought them there. Which she did not. Just two episodes back she mentioned that they needed LF there because of the Vale army. And now she is crediting herself for them? 

Edited by anamika
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5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She didn't dismiss their contributions (indeed, she had a whole spiel about them the previous episode).  She said that they were getting their asses kicked and would have lost if not for the knights, which is true.

I agree.  But the show evidently doesn't see it that way.

She didn't say that either, but Arya wasn't there and didn't bring them.  Sansa did.  Sansa's point was that she has made enormous contributions to retrieve Winterfell, and doesn't much care for Arya's vituperative accusations that she's a traitor.

No, Sansa doesn't see it that way. She really is more Tully than Stark. 

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3 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

He's definitely a First Man in the show, which the Starks are descended from. 

I'm going with Stark, too. Stark it is. 

Oh, definitely a Stark.  But I think he was Bran the Builder's father......Bran of the Bloody Blade.  A notorious killer of Children of the Forest, and son (or at least direct descendent) of Garth Greenhand, THE foundational First Man in Westeros, father (or direct antecedent) of almost all of the Great Houses of Westeros.  The histories have time running oddly back in the age of heroes, almost as if the First Men were longer lived.

But definitely believe the Night King (as depicted on the show. and who is not the same as the Night's King of the books, 13th LC etc.).....shall we just call this NK fellow the HMFIC, was the father or grand/great grand father of Bran the Builder.....Bran of the Bloody Blade.  He ravaged the CotF before the Pact, and I think the CotF finally bagged him, and decided to both pay him back, and his people back, by turning him into a WMD.   Only it backfired, and the CotF & the realm of men made the Pact, and Bran the Builder joined the CotF & other magical beings to build the Wall (and Winterfell, and several other magic-imbued castles/buildings in Westeros.

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Just now, taurusrose said:

No, Sansa doesn't see it that way.

No, the show doesn't see it that way.  That's why Jon dismissed the issue with a quick "let's try to trust each other in the future" and a forehead kiss, and then left Sansa in charge of the North when he was gone.  If Sansa was a totally untrustworthy schemer who caused the deaths of thousands(?) of his men for no reason, he would not do those things, unless he was a moron.  By those actions, you can assess how much gravity the show assigns to that action.

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She really is more Tully than Stark. 

That Tully motto is "Family. Duty, Honour".

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39 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Disagree.  One quick recon flight should have been enough to convince Dany that there was indeed a big army of what looked like (from 1000 feet up) dead folks, plus some guys on horses.  Seems like that would have been enough, plus there would have been no need for Jon to go all dumb-ass and get a dragon killed. 

Right when Jon said he needed to go to Eastwatch to fight the army, here's the dialogue:

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Jon: "We'll fight with the men we have...unless you'll join us?"

Dany: "And give the country to Cersei? As soon as I march away, she marches in."

Per this quote, Dany is still focused on the war in the south. We also learn that Dany didn't want Jon to leave on the mission. Tyrion notes this in a reaction shot at the table.

I'm trying to keep Tyrion's focus clear in all of this: he is trying to sway her away from burning people. A recon at the Wall isn't enough to do that.

I can see him planning the wight hunt to put Jon in danger on purpose, so that she would go rescue him, which would then put her in a situation where she would be more amenable to listen to Jon, whom Tyrion will speak through. I think Tyrion is using her feelings for Jon to manipulate her into being less brutal with the people she wants to rule.

Tyrion himself has been manipulated/blinded by love before, he knows how powerful that can be.

Tyrion could have proposed a quick recon but instead he's playing a deeper game.

But...maybe not! It's just an explanation I have in my head for the IDIOTIC wight hunt idea. I'm trying to make it smarter than it really is.

Edited by Colorful Mess
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3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

There are two major flaws for me, though:

-Littlefinger, especially if things go his way. He shouldn't be the catalyst of the conflict. Outsneaking Arya cheapens her training, manipulating Sansa cheapens her growth. He hasn't been truly relevant in the game since he gave Lancel to Olenna back in S5 imo.

-They should have kept Sansa revealing Ned's plan to Cersei on the show. If would be a sounder basis for Arya's distrust because Sansa did it on her own free will. I never understood why it wasn't included.

Would I prefer the Stark sisters to not revert to their children personas, and to find an understanding easily? Probably. Would I like both of them to be more reasonable? Certainly. Would I love if both were more sweetly sympathetic? Oh yeah. But they have different tempers, different values, and underwent different trials and tribulations. A clash was unavoidable. I just hope it leads them to grow out of it.

Littlefinger's been sneaking around castles spying on people long before Arya was born; I don't think it's farfetched for him to be especially good at it. Arya's training included martial arts, while LF specialized.  As for manipulating Sansa, he told her Brienne could help her with Arya - and Sansa sends her away - apparently because he told her to use her.

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6 minutes ago, scottiB said:

By the end fight, they all had dragonglass weapons except Beric and Jon. Jorah had two daggers (and killed the polar bear with one), Tormund swapped his metal axe for one with dragonglass pieces, and The Hound dropped Gendry's hammer and pulled out a obsidian hatchet and knife from his coat. The redcoats' spears had obsidian tips. 

Great eye!  I caught Jorah delivering the coup d'etat to the bear, but didn't realize anyone else was carrying dragonglass weapons.  I knew they'd taken dragonglass last episode, as Jorah loaded a big box onto the dory in Dragonstone, and you could hear the stuff clinking when he put it in the boat.

So, now we know that dragonglass kills BOTH white walkers and wights.  But fire, even dragonfire, doesn't slow down the Knight King.  I don't recall seeing any of the White Walkers walking through dragon fire, though.  Thanks for that excellent observation, shall have to watch more carefully tomorrow.

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3 minutes ago, screamin said:
11 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 So, my only thought when watching was... Where did they get those massive chains? I mean, really. This show was completely believable until that...

Heh.

I actually know the answer to this! At the Battle of Castle Black, Mag the Mighty, last King of the Giants, had giant chains. He tried to chain his mammoth to the Black Gate and rip it off so Mance's army could get through. The Giants are all dead now, and the White Walkers have all their stuff. Maybe the NK is a Greyjoy not a Stark, the Walkers do not sow.

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14 minutes ago, Couver said:

I think Dany and Jon aren't diabolical enough to fathom what she is capable of. Even Olenna, who did play the game much better than Jon or Dany, admitted she was blindsided by what Cersei thought up.

Hey, game of thrones, you win or you die.  But I think Olenna was blindsided by Cersei's move because it was the stupidest thing ever.  In the face of an imminent threat from Dani, Cersei sent a large proportion of her army far from King's Landing, trusting for some reason that Dany wouldn't find out and immediately attack.  I know Cersei needed the money for the Iron Bank but she also would know that she was unlikely to get it all the way back to King's Landing.  If anybody found out what was going on, all it'd take to totally fuck this plan is (as we saw) 1 dragon or a hoard of dorthraki, or both.  That whole campaign had to have taken months but these guys showed up like hours too late.  It was a stupid plan, and the only reason it worked was that it was protected by plot fog. 

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I live in Chicago - when we get really cold winters, the surface of Lake Michigan freezes maybe a quarter mile, maybe half a mile out.

This isn't a normal winter, even for Westros.  This one is so cold the WWs are actually on the move, and with them comes deeper cold.  No way that lake isn't frozen right to the bottom. 

Not for nothing but Michigan has nearly frozen over in the recorded past, and totally froze over if you go far enough back.  It was once under a solid 1000 feet of ice - I think the winters in Westros were probably more like this, particularly that far north.  Not enough time to form huge glaciers but cold enough to make a Chicago winter seem cozy.  Hard to imagine - I've been in Chicago in winter, and it was fucking awful. 

Edited by henripootel

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3 minutes ago, anamika said:

She did dismiss their contributions when she did not acknowledge their efforts, dismissing it with a 'they lost and the knights of the vale rode for me'. When has she ever mentioned the Wildlings? Did she acknowledge that it was Wun Wun who broke down the door and got them inside to take down Ramsay?

She mentioned the Wildlings last episode.

It isn't dismissing their contributions to say that they had lost the battle before the knights arrived, unless you want to accuse Jon of dismissing their contributions too, because he said the same thing.

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Did she mention that it was LF who brought them there? She bragged about it like she personally rallied the Vale troops and brought them there. Which she did not. Just two episodes back she mentioned that they needed LF there because of the Vale army. And now she is crediting herself for them? 

She credited herself for bringing them there, which she did, according to the show.

I agree that this is not nearly as impressive a feat as the writers seem to think it is (indeed, I've written a fair amount on that score), but that's an issue with the writers, not the character specifically in-universe.

Edited by SeanC
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4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

NK like Bran can see future events, they are intelligent beings, they lured the 7 to that spot, they were at Hardhome, everything is a mirror of Bran, they know each other.

So was the Night's King a greenseer before he was turned? Is that why he could see Bran that time? Wait, if Hardhome was preplanned then why was did the Night's King seem so surprised about Jon taking out one of his guys? Wouldn't he have already seen that coming? 

I'm intrigued by this idea though. OTOH if he's able to see into the future then isn't that even more of a reason that he should have aimed the spear at Drogon since he was carrying one of the candidates for the Prince/Princess who was promised? 

This would though explain why the Walkers and wights were just content to wait it out even though they had Jon & co surrounded. The Night's King could have killed them all by just throwing spears at them since they had no place to go. Hmm. 

I wonder if Benjen's blood has anything to do with why he didn't become a wight.

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2 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I wonder if Benjen's blood has anything to do with why he didn't become a wight.

All we know is that the COTF stop the change by putting DG in his chest.

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