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S02.E13: Betrayal


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On 8/29/2017 at 8:17 PM, Laurie4H said:

Oh and Smurf being arrested for murder (even though she was set up). Wouldn't she be handcuffed and not be able to just walk around using pay phones?

she's not wandering the streets, she's in jail, why would she be denied the phone privileges that other pre-trial detainees get?

I was really expecting a different end to the Pope-Baz showdown. I was certain one of them wouldn't make it out alive

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I am thinking someone should start a group to just discuss "Who shot Baz?"  

Personally I see three options.

1:  J. -  but this only works if the show is winding down.  It means J has started his plan for revenge against the family who lived a few miles away and let his mother OD and him live in poverty while they thrived.  This only works if the show is heading for end game.

 

2:  Lucy and her brother.   Smurf foreshadowed a bunch of things over a couple of episodes in criptic ways.  "you think that is how the story is going to end". " You think you see things clearly.  You don't". This option works by bring Smurf back into the family and showing how Blind and unready to lead Baz actually is.

 

3.  Unseen forces that Smurf  has always kept at bay.  Despite her duplicity she has always protected her children.  With her out of the picture the wolves have come knocking at the Cody's door.  Baz never had what it took to hold the family together or do what it took to keep them alive.  Deran and Craig both with one foot already out the door and Pope woth dubious loyalties.  Baz getting shot by outside forces forces the boys to spring Smurf and let her loose on their enemies. 

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21 hours ago, Cranky One said:

 

I didn't pay attention and have already deleted the show from DVR, but I'm pretty sure J/Finn Cole is left-handed. That would be one way to rule him out as the shooter, but then again this is TV.

 

J is definitely left-handed. As a southpaw myself, I notice these things. However,  I did not notice that the shooter used his  right hand.

Powerful finale.  So many things happened—but I never felt overwhelmed by the multiple plots.

J confronting Baz was surprising. I’ve rarely seen J interact that way with anyone—except the detective who wanted him to turn on his family. And I kind of remember him threatening the drug dealer from his mom’s apartment building who tried to shake him down for money. And he’s told stories about beating up drug dealers with his mom. But angry outbursts aren’t J’s thing. 

So his argument with Baz was important. And it was in front of the entire family, no less. I can’t figure J out entirely, but he’s smart and crafty, and I know he has a plan. He’s not neutral, as he pretends to be. Sure, he listens to Smurf and does her bidding, but it's clear to me that he would shoot her without hesitation. I don’t think he’s siding with any of his uncles, either.

So I suppose J could’ve shot Baz, but why? How does that benefit him or his ultimate plan, whatever that is? J is not usually impulsive, unless a charming woman is convincing him to commit a robbery with her.  So I question whether he would should Baz out of anger or fear.

 

On 8/30/2017 at 9:58 AM, Raja said:

I can only guess because her presence stops the boys parties or makes us guilty for admiring the parties when we think there is a lonely kid around the stuff.

I'll say it again. Poor Lena. 

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For a hot second, I thought Nicki might be considering leaving this life of crime. It was when she was looking at the girls pictures and her college acceptance letter and she seemed sad that it wasn't her. But then of course, she ruined it like by breaking all of her stuff and stealing. I guess we're supposed to feel bad for her because her parents didn't make it to graduation and rather stay in Honolulu, but I really don't. She's an idiot and J is in idiot when he is with her. He's much more interesting on his own, dealing with his uncles than when he is with Nicki. 

I also don't think Lucy had Baz shot but afterwards she saw an oppurtunity to take the money and run. And she probably hopes Baz dies becasue if he does, nobody will know she took it. The brothers don't know how much and where Baz had hidden it.

Poor Lena. 

This show is sooo good and I can't wait for season 3!

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I didn't pay attention and have already deleted the show from DVR, but I'm pretty sure J/Finn Cole is left-handed.

He is - I noticed when he was signing the papers to get Smurf's power of attorney. However, that doesn't prove anything. I am left-handed but I shoot right-handed. (I also bat and play tennis right-handed.)

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In addition to Nikki leaving blood at the scene, J left fingerprints on the way out, assuming the old man has the presence of mind to tell the police that.

Plus he saw their faces. And wouldn't he know Nikki? Didn't she used to be friends with that girl? Isn't that why she had her jacket? He could just go through the yearbook and pick out her photo. (Assuming she showed up the day they were taking yearbook photos.)

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Personally I see three options.

There are other options but I think it must be significant that we just found out Lucy is in some way involved with this cartel, or whoever was responsible for the kidnapping. Prior to that, we didn't really know what she did or at what level. That was supposed to be some big surprising reveal to the audience. I've got to think that factors into the shooting, otherwise what was the point?

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Am I the only one who believes Baz is actually dead?  He didn't just get shot once in the chest.  He had multiple bullet wounds to the chest and elsewhere.

 

Like someone up-thread said, Baz has no redeeming qualities, so I feel like his death--if they wanted to kill someone off--wouldn't piss off as many fans as say, the death of Pope (who has his whole redemption arc going on) might.  It also seemed like the writers were trying to tie up a lot of loose ends with the character.  He met with his Dad, met with Smurf, "forgave" Pope.  He told J--whether or not it was the truth--who his father really was. 

 

I think (and hope) he really is dead, more so because I feel like I am reallllly going to have to suspend disbelief for that one.  Who is really going to survive that attack, IRL?

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On 8/30/2017 at 9:29 AM, iMonrey said:

I don't think anyone set up Baz. I think someone came after Lucy - most likely in retribution for that kid her posse kidnapped. Her reaction to the shooting pretty much confirmed she had no idea it was going down. Yeah, she and Marco decided to take Baz's money but I think probably just so they could both get out of town, or else buy enough support to take out whoever came after her.

They left it ambiguous for sure because Lucy did glance askew in the direction the shooter came from and smile before getting into the vehicle. And theorizing about your lover being shot is one thing but the reality of seeing and hearing it happen could still startle.

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On 8/29/2017 at 9:08 PM, Laurie4H said:

So if J's mom had him at 16.  They means Pope is supposed to be 34?  The actor is older than that and he looks it.  I figured Graig and Deran were late 20's/ 30's and Baz and Pope were late 30's/early 40's

If smurf had Jay' s mom at 18, and she had Jay at 16,  Then Smurf was 34 when Jay was born, making her 51 now. (Assuming Jay is 18).

That seems about right, but the boys would all be late 20s early 30s.

Edited by backformore
spell check wants her name to be snuff.
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1 hour ago, backformore said:

If smurf had Jay' s mom at 18, and she had Jay at 16,  Then Smurf was 34 when Jay was born, making her 51 now. (Assuming Jay is 18).

That seems about right, but the boys would all be late 20s early 30s.

When Baz was asking about her at the self storage lockers he asked about a woman in her 60's 

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That is not at all the way I thought this season would end up, but I am totally happy with how we ended. Baz shot, Smurf still in jail, Craig off to do some soul searching, and Nikki going increasingly crazy in her reckless hedonism, and J getting dragged into it as well. I was convinced that one of the Cody's would be dead for real, that it was actually shocking that everyone is still alive (well, for the time) and that Smurf is still in jail. 

I do enjoy seeing the moments when the guys actually show that they love each other, underneath the manipulations and fights and resentment. I normally question most of what Baz says on any given day, but I do think he forgave Pope, and he did blame Smurf for Caths death, not Pope. It was actually pretty moving. Of course, now Baz may or may not be dead, so that will put a real damper on Baz and Pope being in a better place. Oh Pope. I was so worried he would bite it, but I am glad he seems to be alright for now. The guy is scary and deeply mentally unwell, but I think he has the potential to be a decent person, or at least as decent as a guy who killed his ex girlfriend during sex and has been a career criminal his whole life. 

I actually liked Nikki for a minute or two when she was comforting J about his latest potential father being a nasty rapist, and then she went back to her usual ridiculousness. I dont have Nikki the way a lot of people do, but her constant angst and terrible life choices are just a chore compared to the more dramatic arcs with other characters. But Nikki gonna Nikki I guess. I imagine Nikki isn't unlike how Js mom started, making J one in a long line of kids of messed up people who end up with messed up people just like they're parents. 

Craig and Deran oggeling their preferred genders together was hilarious, while being baffled that the other one cant see how sexy the other ones preferred gender totally is. I hope that Craig comes back soon, I would miss him and Deran and their weird but sincere brotherly love. Honestly I've been so worried all season that Deran would end up dead of in jail after all his talk of going straight (well...in business anyway) in a sad, ironic twist. I finally decided to watch the movie version of the show

Spoiler

(which is quite different), and I really hope things go better for TV Deran. 

I have no idea if what Baz said about Js mom was true, but I wouldn't be all that surprised. It would explain why Js mom left when she did, why no one wants to talk about Js dad, and it certainly wouldn't be out of character for Smurf. Its pretty nasty, even for her, but its been well established that she will prioritize her little criminal enterprise over her kids any day of the week. We already know she had issues with Smurf (being the only one that Smurf didn't act like she wanted to sleep with, so she kind of ignored her. Gross.) but that would explain why she left at that time. Of course, Baz could be full of shit and just wants J to turn against Smurf, so who knows? 

Right now, I am thinking it was Lucy and her brother who shot Baz, and took the money, but I am not totally committed to that. It wouldn't at all shock me to find out that Smurf put a hit out on him, or manipulated J into doing it. But even if she didn't have anything to do with the shooting, Lucy ditching Baz to bleed out alone, and then take his money? That lady is cold

Edited by tennisgurl
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1 minute ago, Valmarmar said:

I loved how the scene where Baz looked like he was going to shoot Pope was directed.  Pope's back to Baz showed he was willing to take the bullet for what he had done, but couldn't look Baz in the eye.

That was a beautiful scene, and one of the few times this season I had a fleeting positive vibe for bad Dad Baz.

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 Pope asked Deran to take care of Lena when the s--- hits the fan; in retrospect, I find myself puzzled.  If at that time he planned to defend himself against Baz, it would seem he was taking out insurance for Lena in case both he and Baz die.  But he has been contemplating suicide for a long time.  So was his original plan to kill Baz and then himself?  If so, maybe he shot Baz.  But where was Lena?  

Maybe Craig did it ...

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12 hours ago, Missbones said:

Am I the only one who believes Baz is actually dead?  He didn't just get shot once in the chest.  He had multiple bullet wounds to the chest and elsewhere.

 

Like someone up-thread said, Baz has no redeeming qualities, so I feel like his death--if they wanted to kill someone off--wouldn't piss off as many fans as say, the death of Pope (who has his whole redemption arc going on) might.  It also seemed like the writers were trying to tie up a lot of loose ends with the character.  He met with his Dad, met with Smurf, "forgave" Pope.  He told J--whether or not it was the truth--who his father really was. 

 

I think (and hope) he really is dead, more so because I feel like I am reallllly going to have to suspend disbelief for that one.  Who is really going to survive that attack, IRL?

Agreed on all points. Most likely he won't survive, three shots to the chest = not good. But you never know!

3 hours ago, lazylou said:

 Pope asked Deran to take care of Lena when the s--- hits the fan; in retrospect, I find myself puzzled.  If at that time he planned to defend himself against Baz, it would seem he was taking out insurance for Lena in case both he and Baz die.  But he has been contemplating suicide for a long time.  So was his original plan to kill Baz and then himself?  If so, maybe he shot Baz.  But where was Lena?  

Maybe Craig did it ...

Craig is 6'4 . LOL! I think people forget to mention Nikki's father & Vin as possibly culprits, but to me J theory doesn't seem farfetched as I believe Lucy/Marco will be the targets early, but when its revealed, J was the one who shot Baz!

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I think people forget to mention Nikki's father & Vin as possibly culprits, but to me J theory doesn't seem farfetched as I believe Lucy/Marco will be the targets early, but when its revealed, J was the one who shot Baz!

I like the Vin theory, which I also saw on Reddit.  That plot seemed to lack conclusion, assuming Vin hadn't lost his memory of what happened, and I think it works dramatically to have Vin attack Baz in revenge.  It did seem like an emotional shooting, not very well planned, which would fit Vin as well as J.

If Marco did the shooting, I think it was without Lucy's knowledge; she seemed legitimately shocked.  And why would you put yourself in harm's way?  She could have easily been collateral damage.

I did notice the shots were all placed higher up on Baz's chest than his heart, so I think it's unlikely he'll kick it with emergency services arriving so quickly.

One of my theories went out the window; I thought Pope was going to try to give Lena to Amy to care for.  Far better than Deran, Mr. Smokes-a-Joint-While-Driving.  I've seen previews of deleted scenes, which I hope will be on the DVD, and there appears to be a deleted scene from You Will Be Gutted where Amy shows up at Pope's house and tells him that she can't forgive him, but Jesus can.

Edited by DianeG
corrected episode reference
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20 hours ago, Missbones said:

Like someone up-thread said, Baz has no redeeming qualities, so I feel like his death--if they wanted to kill someone off--wouldn't piss off as many fans as say, the death of Pope (who has his whole redemption arc going on) might.  

Idk.  Scott Speedman is a pretty well known actor.  He's the reason I continue to watch, tbh.  I hate the character but I love the actor.

18 hours ago, anonymiss said:

They left it ambiguous for sure because Lucy did glance askew in the direction the shooter came from and smile before getting into the vehicle. And theorizing about your lover being shot is one thing but the reality of seeing and hearing it happen could still startle.

Yeah, Lucy was also prompting Baz to leave right then.  I think her reaction people are mentioning is a red herring by the writer/director.  I think she did it.

11 hours ago, lazylou said:

 Pope asked Deran to take care of Lena when the s--- hits the fan; in retrospect, I find myself puzzled.  If at that time he planned to defend himself against Baz, it would seem he was taking out insurance for Lena in case both he and Baz die.  But he has been contemplating suicide for a long time.  So was his original plan to kill Baz and then himself?  If so, maybe he shot Baz.  But where was Lena?  

Maybe Craig did it ...

I think that Pope was going there to fight Baz initially so that's why he asked, not knowing the outcome.  Either way, in his mind, one of them would be dead and the other probably on their way to jail. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 6:09 PM, lazylou said:

Part of the answer lies in Season One.  Cath was a long time girl friend, originally of Pope, who apparently burned her parents In their house at Smurf's behest; evidently they were talking to the cops. Cath met Baz at the beach...evidently to get her out of the house.  This happened some twenty years ago.  

According to Baz/Marco/Craig, once upon a time they all worked with Lucy and Marco until roughly ten years before when Smurf put an end to the business relationship between the two groups.  Apparently Baz and Lucy date back to that period.  When Smurf put an end to the Baz/Lucy thing, he went with Cath, though he knew Andrew had always loved her. ( Cath told one of the cops that she had loved Baz since she was sixteen , and we assume she always preferred Baz to Pope...thus Baz gets Catherine.). However, it seems she was always Baz's second choice. ) So no...he meant Lucy.

Thank you! Such an action packed series...some the deetz have escaped me! 

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On 8/29/2017 at 7:32 PM, patty1h said:

This episode had me more shook than the recent finale of GOT.   The person that had me emotional was Pope - that guy is a mess.  It took me a second to realize that Pope emptying his shells meant that he wanted Baz to kill him - instead of 'suicide by cop' he wanted 'suicide by brother'. I loved that Baz didn't shoot him after finding out the truth. 

Craig wanting to leave town was rather abrupt - are the writers running out of things for his character to do?  I'll miss his hot druggy antics.

My god, why do I hate Nikki so much?  I had my fingers crossed that she would get shot during the home invasion, then after she did, I was praying that the bullet had hit an artery.  No such luck.  Also, still no confirmation on who's J's father - not sure who to believe here.

This cliffhanger leaves two questions:  Who set up Baz?: Lucy, Pope, J or Smurf?  I lean towards Smurf but also expect a twist.  

I agree..that scene with J and that gawdawful Nikki was cringeworthy! I CANNOT BELIEVE HOW STUPID J CAN BE! It was horrible to watch...and didn't line up with his character at all. He could have and should have stopped her at taking the jacket. 

Perhaps it was to remind us that J is...after all...just a kid. I dunno..but what a disappointment.

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I think (and hope) he really is dead, more so because I feel like I am reallllly going to have to suspend disbelief for that one.  Who is really going to survive that attack, IRL?

I wouldn't mind if he died but I doubt he will. At this point I feel like all five of "Smurf's boys" (including J) are too important to kill off, especially with Smurf stuck in jail. 

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On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 0:31 AM, Dowel Jones said:

In addition to Nikki leaving blood at the scene, J left fingerprints on the way out, assuming the old man has the presence of mind to tell the police that.  That won't end well.

 

The old man shot at a non violent felon halfway down the block...in the back. Remembering the Val Kilmer movie Felon about a man who killed a fleeing home burgler I hope he has a friend to advise him to say never mind when the cops show up at a shooting scene.

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J actually left a lot of blood at the church heist and at the time I thought it would bring up who is dad was (familial DNA) and it never came up.  I don't think police actually collect that much evidence.

I don't think that old guy belonged to that house....I thought he was a neighbor. 

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On 8/31/2017 at 1:12 AM, sugarbaker design said:

I'm sure it was probably mentioned before, but Baz's actual name is Barry Blackwell.  With a nickname like Baz I was thinking it was a short form of Sebastian.

Baz being short for Barry is a very common way that nicknames are formed in Australia (and somewhat in the UK too). Gaz from Garry, Shaz from Sharon, Chez from Cheryl. Most names with an 'r' in them, you can do it. Or it can be Bazza, Gazza, Shazza...

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1 hour ago, SingleMaltBlonde said:

J actually left a lot of blood at the church heist and at the time I thought it would bring up who is dad was (familial DNA) and it never came up.  I don't think police actually collect that much evidence.

I don't think that old guy belonged to that house....I thought he was a neighbor. 

Except for the shotgun blast LAPD would take the  report by phone. The CSI stuff only if you made a big enough political pest of yourself 

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1 hour ago, Raja said:

Except for the shotgun blast LAPD would take the  report by phone. The CSI stuff only if you made a big enough political pest of yourself 

Nope.  That would be OPD - Oceanside Police Department.  (I'm assuming Nikki's classmate lives in her school district).  And they do send someone to your home if you report a break-in robbery - they even dust for fingerprints sometimes.  If someone reported the shotgun blast, the homeowner would likely be cited for illegal discharge of a firearm.

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One reason I thought Baz had to survive was that he and Lucy were the only ones who knew where the stash was.  So, unless Lucy was working with Smurf or someone, if Baz dies, the rest of Smurf's stuff is gone. I just cannot believe that Smurf is allied with Lucy...Smurf was the one who ended the relationship with Lucy ten years before and caused Baz to choose Cath over Lucy.

BUT the other day I realized that J's sudden purchase of the truck corresponds with Baz showing up at Smurf s, handing J some cash, and J not having to go to school for some reason.  Smurf gives him the POV...and then he showed up at school with a truck.

Maybe he needed the truck to follow  Baz.  Maybe he does know where Baz hid the suitcases.  It must have taken Baz some time to build the wall...  I wondered, though, why he had put it behind a wooden wall, but Lucy and Marco are shown breaking thru dry wall. It is as though Baz decided to change the hiding place in the house to better camouflage it, which means he would have spent yet more time at the house...more time that J could have used to follow him.

If J had followed Baz to the house, if Baz dies, or even if he is in a coma or ICU for awhile, J would discover lthe suitcases are gone, and could conclude Lucy had them.

This also increases the possibly that J either shot Baz...but did seem the shooter was probably right handed, ruling out J, though I could never tell for sure....or arranged the shooting...maybe at Smurf's behest.

Craig's being in Mexico already may prove useful.

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On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:03 PM, HollyG said:

She did seem surprised. A poster on Reddit suggested that it could have been Nicki's father. He was supposed to be in town that day for her graduation. Maybe he didn't miss his plane after all. He hates the family for getting him & Nicki involved in their crimes, for undermining his authority and also for enabling her drug use.

Wow, that blindsided me but it's a fantastic theory!  I kind of hope that's it.

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13 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Wow, that blindsided me but it's a fantastic theory!  I kind of hope that's it.

Yea, me too. It's unexpected, but not out of the realm of possibility. And it would make as much sense as any of the others shooting him.

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11 hours ago, Raja said:

Why would the Commander go after Baz first? It was Craig that was raping his daughter as much as the teacher was raping J.

Remember, though, that Baz is the one who "brought him in" and got him involved in the Camp Pendleton heist.  He was pretty pi$$ed off about that before he walked past Craig and Nikki getting high in Craig's room.

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Wow, Lucy is such a cunning b**ch, and heartless, betraying her lover of so many years for what? money? those will be hers anyway once Baz moved to Mexico anyway. So why did she do it? I guess people's greed really has no bounds. 

Baz is so stupid! Smurf is no angel, but she doesn't deserve that kind of betrayal from Baz. And what exactly is Baz's beef with Smurf? He didn't exact had proof that Smurf killed Cath before the robbery and framing of Smurf went down.

I am worried for J for leaving his fingerprint behind, it is pretty stupid to fool around when you are robbing someone's house, get out of there already!

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