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S07.E05: Eastwatch

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9 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Honestly, I would find it unrealistic if Arya and Sansa put aside their issues and just got along. Sure, they'd lost their parents and siblings, but that doesn't make their issues they have with each other go away magically. This doesn't even happen with siblings you are close with who you have deep grained issues with as well. This current issue comes off as true of their relationship. They love and are fond of each other, but that doesn't negate the negative parts of their relationship. Right or wrong, Arya's issue with Sansa isn't petty: she believes that Sansa's action have led to the deaths of two people, which is her friend and their father. I don't think she believes Sansa is evil, but rather, (was) obsessed with material things and marriages and those obsessions influences her decisions. 

We want Arya to calm down and back off of Sansa because all that has happened to her, but do y'all honestly think that Sansa told Arya any of these things??? Most likely, Arya doesn't know and Arya has no reason to assume Sansa experienced great atrocities independent of their shared ones. 

As far as the council scene goes, I can see why Arya felt the way she did. Sansa did her job perfunctory and as a duty because he is family rather than her actually supporting Jon. We give Jon a lot of shit about his decisions and how Sansa is making better decisions in the North and, maybe this is true, but Jon is the only one who understands the seriousness of the situation and knows how to combat it. Jon is a serious person and doesn't take anything lightly and, of anything, I'd expect Sansa to respect that even if she doesn't truly grasp the situation. Jon would never ask his men to go out and do something he wouldn't do himself. Maybe that makes him a terrible leader, BUT considering not many people take his claims about WW serious, in this case, he HAS to go out and risk his life to SAVE Westoros. 

Sansa is correct that she can't just cut off their heads, but Arya is also right in a sense that they cannot just speak about Jon like that. Do you think anyone would have gotten away speaking about Cersei, Robert, Dany, Ned, Joffrey, Tommen, Olenna, etc. like that during a council meeting? Because it wasn't simply about the reservations and grievances, but HOW they were talking about Jon and Sansa's reaction and body language to their complaints. 

Arya: He trusted you to hold it for him.

Sansa: Well, he's not making it easy. The Northern Lords are proud.

As savvy as we claim Sansa is and that she knows how to play the game, calming down Northern Lords shouldn't be an issue for her. This shouldn't be an obstacle, yet it is and for reasons Arya stated: she wants to rule the North, but is trying to push the thought out of her head. I didn't see Sansa as thinking Arya was saying foolish things; Sansa knew that Area pegged her dilemma correctly and how no response for it. Because if she was 100% not interested in ruling the North, either she'd be able to 'control' the bannermen better OR she honestly doesn't know how to run the North as well as she though she would've. Running the North isn't literally about hoarding food and the day to day shit, but politics as well. No their politics doesn't compare to KL or other places, but it's still there. And to hold down a position for someone means to run the day to day and back/defend them, regardless if you disagree behind closed doors, if need be. Sansa has graduated from openly question Jon to just remaining silent when she needs to show a more united front with him other than saying he thought it was the best decision. 

Which is why I believe LF still has some sway with her: he either planted the seed or further cultivated Sansa's belief that she should be the one running the North. Sansa is aware that LF is trying to manipulate her, but that doesn't make her immune from all of his manipulations. She is playing her own game as well, but even if Arya was wrong about some things, she was right as well. 

To bring it back to my original point, the other reason why Arya and Sansa aren't going to immediately become a united front and put their past issues behind them is because Sansa has HUGE trust issues because of her experiences. At this point, she trusts Jon more than she trusts Arya and she didn't even trust Jon during their reunion again or, at least, all that much. But, she and Jon built their relationship so she's built some trust, where as Arya is basically a stranger to her despite Arya still possessing some of her old mannerisms.

I'm also not seeing how Arya is behaving or being crazy, which she had been called earlier in the thread. I think LF was paranoid after that first scene, and then laid the trap for her. But, she's observing her and investigating. We honestly don't know what she's going to do with that info or how she's going to react. Also, with the chamber scene, it wasn't just Arya holding onto old shit, it was Sansa too--recall how the scene started and that Sansa told her to spit out her issue. 

As far as Gendry goes, the rowing line was fan service, but his reintroduction isn't, IMO. Just like other characters and storylines, Gendry was combined with Edric. I could see Gendry maturing in his stance in the sense that, when we meet him, he's a teen and broody and angry. But, he was also a bastard with a dead mother who didn't know who his father was. I didn't think he necessarily cares that Robert is his father, but it gives him a sense of identity rather than a bastard without a father with no clue as to who his dad was. It gives him a sense of importance. I could see him wanting to fight back since he had a mark on his head and had to hide in plain sight. But, I don't think his return is fan service or to give Arya a love interest. GRRM DID tell them how the story ends and even we don't know this ourselves, so how can anyone honestly argue that's the reason for his return? Sure, they have detoured and combined, but there's no way of knowing unless GRRM finishes the series. 

I think the argument that Gendry was reintroduced back into the narrative to restore the Baratheon line and that it could end with he and Sansa having an arranged marriage is a compelling one. But, I also think it'd keep the underlining friction between the Stark sisters alive. Even if Arya doesn't (still) like Gendry, she met him first and I think she'd see him as hers and that Sansa took him away from her, irrational or not. I honestly don't think she'd welcome that union with open arms or ever truly embrace it. Now, canonically, we do have evidence that Arya DID find Gendry physically attractive. That doesn't make her feelings automatically a crush, but it wouldn't be far fetched for me to believe she still has some deep feelings for him. If anyone on here has read the fanfic 'No Featherbed For Me," I'd imagine a restrained play out of the emotions happening between the three. Because if Gendry ever gets legitimized, I don't think Arya would want to be with him because that life isn't her, ironically, if she did, Gendry would be her most suitable suitor. But, she would want to be with him if he was still a forger. 

 What Arya believes is wrong, if she thought it out, it's not her fault Micah died, but it was Hers and Joffery's hot hotheadedness that contribute to Cersei ordering Mycahs death, he was dead before Sansa even got called before the king. Also neither Stark daughters knew that their father actually gave up their safety for Cersei's kids over his own children. Ned's plan was to stay, well Lord Ned get your kids out first then show mercy ( such a dumb ass move ). Sansa may not know what happened to Arya, but Arya does know somethings that happened to Sansa because, the Hound told her!  ( show and book ).

While in KL Sansa knew Arya was training, or chasing cats, or pigeons, while Sansa was pleading for her father's life. Arya has no grasp of the politics then and actually now. Her sister was a high value hostage, she was on a dais expecting her father to be commuted to the wall, and Joffery betrayed her( maybe with a little nudge from LF ). Arya had no clue on what Sansa tried to do for her father, she is basing Sansa on a 6 year old mental picture which is flawed because she doesn't have the complete picture or the complete captions.

So now Arya walks into a meeting and deems herself an expert on Northern and Southern politics and Sansa's past desires ? what skills does she have, or ever had in any of those? None, she rejected those she wanted to be a warrior, Sansa wanted to be a lady, they both got what they wanted with harsh realities.

Right now Arya's vision of Sansa is based on book 1 and season 1 Sansa; that Sansa has died long ago. Sansa has never ever been boisterous or loud trying to get her points across, and she still isn't, she's soft talking, not quick acting  she is measured, none of the things she said to Jon was wrong, or undermining him on purpose, but Arya wants her to behead some lords for complaining, Ned would not do that, he made it a point to listen to his men, and as Luwin told Bran, and Sansa is doing the same thing, with a soft voice.

Sansa was thrown into this because 1: she's a Stark, and 2. because Jon knows and feels she can do it, she started training for it since age 3, then she and Arya get to KL, Arya pursued her training, Sansa pursued her dreams and both had them ripped and battered, Arya got whisked to safety with some beatings in between and some horrific  violence ( blindness and training pain not counting she chose to continued those ), Sansa became a hostage , punching bag and verbally, mentally and physically abused , Arya eventually lands in to a school for assassins, Sansa is surrounded, by the best game players ( worst people ), she learned the game to survive, Arya learned to kill, Sansa learned to run a house not only growing up in Winterfell, but living in the Eyrie, Arya learned to take faces, and make poisons, supposedly she learned how to read people and see behind masks, that didn't go well for her in Bravos, she's lucky to be alive, Sansa's learning manipulation to get what's needed without violence, Arya doesn't mind getting dirty, Sansa not so much.

Both have skills, Sansa's just more relevant for society, Arya's more for war, but most child soldiers don't end up well. 

Sansa is making decisions on info given to her, Arya is making decisions on hunches and what she sees with out all the info and neither is talking to the other because of all these past experiences.

Does Sansa have the right to feel she can rule, hell yes, for 6 years all she wanted was home, safety and family, she has it, and she's entitled to fight for it, if she didn't have that drive, Arya and Bran would have nothing to come home to, because there be no home; does it look like she's usurping Jon, no not to me, worst thing she did was disagree with Jon in open meeting, but it was just as much his fault as hers, they seem to resolved it sorta in 7-2 they're feeling their way through this.

Arya's loyalty is good, if she lets that loyalty blind her, causing wrong decisions,  it could kill her, Bran and Sansa.

Arya doesn't see Sansa's changed, Sansa does see Arya has, and Bran too, and it pains the hell out of her I'm sure, added to what she has to get done now.

I'm pretty sure Arya was and will continue to play the game of faces, but if she didn't think the pain in Sansa's voice was real, then LittleFinger is going to chew her up and spit her out. Arya should realize her sister was forced to write that letter, she and Sansa both know LF is shit, Arya wants to gut him, Sansa knows that can't happen until she has control of the Vale and a way to prove his crimes, then Sansa will give her blessings.

Sansa's Vale arc is now full circle, except it's being played at WF

I can't be sure, but I think Royce is a plant for Sansa, I don't think she trust Lord Glover, he could be WF version of Lord Cobray. ( or I could be totally wrong )

I'm not sure why Arya is following LF using her own face, it's what she went to assassin school for, and LF knows she's following him, and he has that nice slimy smirk, so who is playing who? two more weeks.

At some point they will hit Bran up for puzzle pieces.

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2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does anyone else think that the Tarleys are just a slippery slope the show has gone down since Season 1? Prior seasons she burned nameless Redshirts. The Tarleys were something more to us, but still distant, assholish, or foolish enough to make us comfortable with her. 

What if, after something majorly pisses her off, she flies straight up to Winterfell and threatens the Starks - who just got reuinted all in one place? I am actually nauseous from fear, just thinking about it. But the show, and GRRM, would LOVE doing this to us.

Hoping Dany comes out a hero. Hope GRRM loves her too much to let her go down that path. But being a sadist is his favorite pastime, too so...I dunno.

There is a melancholy that has fallen on me. It might be because the show is ending, but I'm finding it hard to like this show. I'm addicted to it and I still watch it, but there is a distinct lack of richness that fills in and expands the various brutal bits. It feels almost like all of their inspiration comes from Martin's work and when they are left to their own devices, it becomes hollow and a little pat. I thought Dany sounded like a hypocrite- talking about breaking the wheel but continuing to insist people bend the knee or die- and it's weird that the show doesn't seem to want to call her on it. And it makes no sense, at all, that she doesn't just end the war now. I don't think she is going to burn Starks, but it'd be almost better if we thought she could. 

 

What would possibly be more interesting (which it doesn't seem like they are doing) is to have Dany win the Iron Throne right now- and her arc next season is learning to rule, being possibly terrible at it, possibly crazy., considering helping Jon Snow, because it's getting awful cold in King's Landing. Have her be happy to achieve something or realizing ruling sort of sucks. Or have her deal with the idea that she isn't the actual heir to the throne. 

And make Cersei the exiled queen (girl hasn't left KL since the second episode of the first season) and have her try to negotiate a sell sword army.  Maybe Dany smashes a rebellion, like Robert had to with the Greyjoys.

Rather than schmoopy eyes at her nephew and flying around on dragons. 

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2 hours ago, Francie said:

... And the Governor of Louisiana calls out the state militia to fight him or her, and the ousted President drops a bomb that obliterates those militia members, do you think that's the right call? Just because New Orleans wasn't hit,...  

I'm really starting to worry about New Orleans and Louisiana. Last week it was pirate zombies-? and the Queen of England.  Now it's the president and nukes.  Should I warn Cafe du Monde that they need to move the restaurant out of state?
;-)

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4 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

There is a melancholy that has fallen on me. It might be because the show is ending, but I'm finding it hard to like this show. I'm addicted to it and I still watch it, but there is a distinct lack of richness that fills in and expands the various brutal bits. It feels almost like all of their inspiration comes from Martin's work and when they are left to their own devices, it becomes hollow and a little pat. I thought Dany sounded like a hypocrite- talking about breaking the wheel but continuing to insist people bend the knee or die- and it's weird that the show doesn't seem to want to call her on it. And it makes no sense, at all, that she doesn't just end the war now. I don't think she is going to burn Starks, but it'd be almost better if we thought she could. 

 

She can't "break the wheel" or do anything to change the system until she actually conquers the Iron Throne. And in order to take the Iron Throne she is going to have to kill a lot pf people and get people to submit to her rule. This is war. When the war is over and she starts to rule than we will see if she is a hypocrite or not.

And no it makes no sense that she is going to kill the Starks for no reason at all. lol.  

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1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

Sending the two Tarlys to the wall was the right call. Unfortunately Dany didn't take that option.

Randall Tarly could object all he wants that Daenerys is a foreign invader and not his rightful queen and thus has no authority to send him to the wall, but it would not matter, since he was a prisoner with power over exactly nothing. What's he going to do once he gets to the wall? Complain some more? Most of the Night's Watch didn't want to be there either, but they haven't got a choice. The only options Tarly would have at the wall would be to do his duty or desert, and the latter is a death sentence.

Tarly was also a capable general which is what the Night's Watch needs.

The problem is, could she spare the men to guard a man like that all the way to the wall? Could she make him stay? He didn't recognize her authority to send him to the wall, and so there was no way to get him to go there.

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1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

 What Arya believes is wrong, if she thought it out, it's not her fault Micah died, but it was Hers and Joffery's hot hotheadedness that contribute to Cersei ordering Mycahs death, he was dead before Sansa even got called before the king. Also neither Stark daughters knew that their father actually gave up their safety for Cersei's kids over his own children. Ned's plan was to stay, well Lord Ned get your kids out first then show mercy ( such a dumb ass move ). Sansa may not know what happened to Arya, but Arya does know somethings that happened to Sansa because, the Hound told her!  ( show and book ).

While in KL Sansa knew Arya was training, or chasing cats, or pigeons, while Sansa was pleading for her father's life. Arya has no grasp of the politics then and actually now. Her sister was a high value hostage, she was on a dais expecting her father to be commuted to the wall, and Joffery betrayed her( maybe with a little nudge from LF ). Arya had no clue on what Sansa tried to do for her father, she is basing Sansa on a 6 year old mental picture which is flawed because she doesn't have the complete picture or the complete captions.

So now Arya walks into a meeting and deems herself an expert on Northern and Southern politics and Sansa's past desires ? what skills does she have, or ever had in any of those? None, she rejected those she wanted to be a warrior, Sansa wanted to be a lady, they both got what they wanted with harsh realities.

Right now Arya's vision of Sansa is based on book 1 and season 1 Sansa; that Sansa has died long ago. Sansa has never ever been boisterous or loud trying to get her points across, and she still isn't, she's soft talking, not quick acting  she is measured, none of the things she said to Jon was wrong, or undermining him on purpose, but Arya wants her to behead some lords for complaining, Ned would not do that, he made it a point to listen to his men, and as Luwin told Bran, and Sansa is doing the same thing, with a soft voice.

Sansa was thrown into this because 1: she's a Stark, and 2. because Jon knows and feels she can do it, she started training for it since age 3, then she and Arya get to KL, Arya pursued her training, Sansa pursued her dreams and both had them ripped and battered, Arya got whisked to safety with some beatings in between and some horrific  violence ( blindness and training pain not counting she chose to continued those ), Sansa became a hostage , punching bag and verbally, mentally and physically abused , Arya eventually lands in to a school for assassins, Sansa is surrounded, by the best game players ( worst people ), she learned the game to survive, Arya learned to kill, Sansa learned to run a house not only growing up in Winterfell, but living in the Eyrie, Arya learned to take faces, and make poisons, supposedly she learned how to read people and see behind masks, that didn't go well for her in Bravos, she's lucky to be alive, Sansa's learning manipulation to get what's needed without violence, Arya doesn't mind getting dirty, Sansa not so much.

Both have skills, Sansa's just more relevant for society, Arya's more for war, but most child soldiers don't end up well. 

Sansa is making decisions on info given to her, Arya is making decisions on hunches and what she sees with out all the info and neither is talking to the other because of all these past experiences.

Does Sansa have the right to feel she can rule, hell yes, for 6 years all she wanted was home, safety and family, she has it, and she's entitled to fight for it, if she didn't have that drive, Arya and Bran would have nothing to come home to, because there be no home; does it look like she's usurping Jon, no not to me, worst thing she did was disagree with Jon in open meeting, but it was just as much his fault as hers, they seem to resolved it sorta in 7-2 they're feeling their way through this.

Arya's loyalty is good, if she lets that loyalty blind her, causing wrong decisions,  it could kill her, Bran and Sansa.

Arya doesn't see Sansa's changed, Sansa does see Arya has, and Bran too, and it pains the hell out of her I'm sure, added to what she has to get done now.

I'm pretty sure Arya was and will continue to play the game of faces, but if she didn't think the pain in Sansa's voice was real, then LittleFinger is going to chew her up and spit her out. Arya should realize her sister was forced to write that letter, she and Sansa both know LF is shit, Arya wants to gut him, Sansa knows that can't happen until she has control of the Vale and a way to prove his crimes, then Sansa will give her blessings.

Sansa's Vale arc is now full circle, except it's being played at WF

I can't be sure, but I think Royce is a plant for Sansa, I don't think she trust Lord Glover, he could be WF version of Lord Cobray. ( or I could be totally wrong )

I'm not sure why Arya is following LF using her own face, it's what she went to assassin school for, and LF knows she's following him, and he has that nice slimy smirk, so who is playing who? two more weeks.

At some point they will hit Bran up for puzzle pieces.

And that is why I said: right or wrong. I believe I specifically highlighted that for this exact reason. It's equally valid to assume a person has change as it is to assume that they haven't changed. In aryas opinion, Sansa hasn't. But, arya is drawing from her experiences with Sansa just as Sansa drew from her experience with arya. Sansa doesn't perceive arya as a changed person. Part of my comment was explaining that we need to see them from their actual experience and what they know and not what WE know. Even then who is to say she grasped the severity, significance, and made the connection. What's obvious to us isn't always obvious to others. Basically, I'm trying to figure out why this point is being argued.

Sansa can read people, but clearly her politics are suited for KL and not winterfell. Arya may not be politically savvy, but she was right in saying Sansa needs to defend Jon (better). And she doesn't need to know how to play the game to read people. Lol. I believe that is actually part of her training. Lol. You don't become a success faceless man but not knowing how to read people. 

I think you're more concerned with defending Sansa and humbling arya that you missed the point I was making. Bravos didn't work out for arya because she wouldn't commit to it. Sansa has learned the game, but she's also had LF "looking" out for her. 

My point was, one of them: they've always had a contentious relationship and that isn't going to be easily discarded because of their traumatic experiences and because years have gone by. If Sansa can read people so well, she should've left the situation alone and brought it up later on. She told arya to speak, and then got upset when she did. Sansa the wise should've let arya bite her tongue, but she didn't. Ironically, arya was the one who showed restraint despite people swearing she's unstable and kills in a second flat (in reference to criticisms of her). Although she considers things, she's more thoughtful, careful, and considerate of her actions. And being misled by LF is a right of passage in westeros if you're interacting with him. He's manipulated just about everyone he's ever encountered. 

Edited by Nanrad
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9 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sansa went wrong the moment she questioned Jon in front of the Lords the very first time, and she hasn't even slightly improved since then.  She's still too stupid to get out of her own way.   This is the North, not King's Landing, where little palace intrigues gain you some coin.  Her behavior in this episode was merely more of the same.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's back-sliding in every way.

She had every right to question him, yes better in private, but he shares half the blame, Winterfell isn't Castle Black.

She seems to be right on in most decisions, she can't be that stupid, Jon says she's smart, Tyrion says she smart and GRRM says she's smart.

Only people who thinks she's dumb is a blonde Romulin queen in KL, and a little sis still stuck in book 1.

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9 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Sansa doesn't perceive arya as a changed person.

Sansa most definitely sees Arya has changed, she's more vindictive, she's a harden fighter, she knows she has a list, she's still driven by hatred, and she knows Bran has also changed, he's colder, more aloof, acts more like a zombie then Bran.

Despite what they went through Jon and Sansa are the two closer to normal, of course if they should survive and calm takes over then the flood of emotions will come forth with a vengeance.

Only part Sansa was upset about was Arya throwing in her face, that she took mom and dads room from Jon, because pretty things make her happy.

I think if Arya knew her sister was raped in those rooms she want to cut her own tongue out.

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9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm putting  85 percent of the blame on the Starks, it's  their penchant  for doing stupid  shit that causes the Chao that littlefinger revels in.

We're down to arya sansa and Rickon as on screen Starks that didn't  cause catastrophic  events

So your blaming Ned and Cat for believing Lysa's letter, that she and LF concocted that falsely blamed the Lannister twins, who did actually commit treason( not to mention the tenants of guest rights in WF ), that both Jon Arryn and Ned found to be true?

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5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I think Dany is doing the best she can to take Westros away from a tyrant who killed anyone who got in her way, and anyone who happened to be standing next to them, and anyone who was unfortunate enough to be in several city blocks of them, or anyone who makes fun of her Vulcan fashion statement, or little kids who happen to see her doin it doggy style with her twin brother, a fact she now flaunts in front of anyone unfortunate enough to go to her bedchamber.

I have to disagree with you here.  Her fashion statement is clearly Romulan (straight forward, militaristic) and not Vulcan (robes & hoods) :P

Edited by DarkRaichu
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47 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Sansa doesn't perceive arya as a changed person.

tenor.gif

Sansa does see Arya has changed, just as she's seen Bran has changed. And just like Bran she doesn't understand how and she is unsettled and disturbed by both. Arya still sees Sansa as the person she was in season 1 and that's understandable because she doesn't know what she went through. Some viewers who do know still see her as that person too and every time she questions Jon or isn't totally as proof that she'll betray him as Arya does. It's not just what she did on the Kingsroad back in season 1 but her prior relationship with Jon that was only hinted at after their reunion but was more detailed in the books. She didn't treat him as family as her brothers and Arya did but followed Catelyn's. She wasn't as hostile but she was still cold. Jon doesn't hold any resentment over that anymore but Arya does. Sansa despite her misgivings and doubts is supporting Jon but there is some truth that his being a bastard is affecting her overall attitude. She would never contradict Robb in public. Then again Robb would be just as dismissive of her advice as Jon.

Grailking:

Quote

I think if Arya knew her sister was raped in those rooms she want to cut her own tongue out.

God, I don't want any tearful revelation scene where they hug afterwards and that's how this whole conflict is resolved. "Oh you were raped repeatedly? SI guess we're cool now.orry I thought you were going to betray Jon! "  That's hacky soap shit.

Edited by VCRTracking
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27 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

So your blaming Ned and Cat for believing Lysa's letter, that she and LF concocted that falsely blamed the Lannister twins, who did actually commit treason( not to mention the tenants of guest rights in WF ), that both Jon Arryn and Ned found to be true?

No I'm blaming Cat for stupidly kidnapping the queen's brother (while the queen had her daughters mind you) and allowing herself to be put into a position where he couldn't be kept. I'm blaming Ned for every stupid step he took from the time he warned Cersei and beyond. 

Even with this new revelation where asshole Rhaegar delegitimized his first son with that bull shit annulment, we can still call Ned a hypocrite, right?  His big problem with Jamie was failure to do his job , those three/ two guards protecting Lyanna and her kid weren't doing their job yet they're worthy of full honors?  I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that they were protecting his nephew.

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2 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

There is a melancholy that has fallen on me. It might be because the show is ending, but I'm finding it hard to like this show. I'm addicted to it and I still watch it, but there is a distinct lack of richness that fills in and expands the various brutal bits. It feels almost like all of their inspiration comes from Martin's work and when they are left to their own devices, it becomes hollow and a little pat. I thought Dany sounded like a hypocrite- talking about breaking the wheel but continuing to insist people bend the knee or die- and it's weird that the show doesn't seem to want to call her on it. And it makes no sense, at all, that she doesn't just end the war now. I don't think she is going to burn Starks, but it'd be almost better if we thought she could. 

 

What would possibly be more interesting (which it doesn't seem like they are doing) is to have Dany win the Iron Throne right now- and her arc next season is learning to rule, being possibly terrible at it, possibly crazy., considering helping Jon Snow, because it's getting awful cold in King's Landing. Have her be happy to achieve something or realizing ruling sort of sucks. Or have her deal with the idea that she isn't the actual heir to the throne. 

And make Cersei the exiled queen (girl hasn't left KL since the second episode of the first season) and have her try to negotiate a sell sword army.  Maybe Dany smashes a rebellion, like Robert had to with the Greyjoys.

Rather than schmoopy eyes at her nephew and flying around on dragons. 

I blame GRRM for this.  Even to non book readers, the earlier seasons felt like books condensed to 10 hour movie.  The later seasons felt like outlines being expanded to fill 10 hours show.  The characters just went from point A to B fulfilling their tasks as part of a big D&D game (pun intended)., some even acquired warp speed ability in the process. :P  

Gone is the concept of consequences of seemingly small actions, everything is explained straight forward from point A to B to C

Edited by DarkRaichu
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9 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Repeating the same mistakes over and over again is stupid.  Which is what Sansa does, trying the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. 

Tyrion is another matte,r he's trying whatever he can to keep Dany on an even keel and to prevent her going all Mad Queen.  Lyanna Mormont is a ten year old. 

BTW, Arya didn't suggest beheading the recalcitrant Lords, Sansa was the one who brought that up.  But typical Sansa, she had to deflect into something else to avoid admitting that Arya had a very valid point, Sansa is appeasing these Lords without correction, in an attempt to amass her own power base.  Arya caught her dead to rights in her motives.  And I'd kindly ask that you NOT attribute motives to me that I haven't stated.  I'm always happy to explain or defend my own words, any time, but the old "so what you're saying" bit is not going to happen.

Arya- They were insulting Jon and you sat there and listen.

Sansa- I sat there and listen, it's my responsibility as Lady of Winterfell.

Arya- their opinions aren't important to you.

Sansa- Glover has 500 men, Royce 2000, offend them and Jon looses his army.

Arya- NOT IF THEY LOOSE THEIR HEADS FIRST !

Sansa walking closer to Arya - Winterfell didn't just fall into our hands, we took it back ; along with the Mormonts, the Hornwoods, the Wildlings and the Vale ,all of us working together, now Im sure cutting off heads is very satisfying; but that's not how you get people to work together.

Arya then turns into bitch mode : and if Jon, doesn't come back, you'll need their support; so you can work together, to give you what you really want.

Sansa - Says how can you think such a thing and they go on.

Point 1 Arya implied taking heads not Sansa.

Point 2 Arya was being a bigger dick then Joffery

Point 3 Yes Arya your sister will need their support, to keep the home your now chilling in and pissing and moaning in, for you and Bran.

Point 4 She IS the Lady of Winterfell and your the heir, so open, your eyes and open your ears  and learn .

Little sis is a bitch.

And if she's playing game of faces with Sansa I hope Sansa gives her a new one.

If Sansa is falling backwards, she's heading in a more proper direction then Arya at the moment. 

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8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

No I'm blaming Cat for stupidly kidnapping the queen's brother (while the queen had her daughters mind you) and allowing herself to be put into a position where he couldn't be kept. I'm blaming Ned for every stupid step he took from the time he warned Cersei and beyond. 

Even with this new revelation where asshole Rhaegar delegitimized his first son with that bull shit annulment, we can still call Ned a hypocrite, right?  His big problem with Jamie was failure to do his job , those three/ two guards protecting Lyanna and her kid weren't doing their job yet they're worthy of full honors?  I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that they were protecting his nephew.

That's not 85 %, on them, it's more like 90 plus percent on LF, he lied to Cat about the knife, she trusted him, like Tywin,Jon Arryn,Lysa,Cersei,QOT, Jamie Lanister. Starks have their faults, I brought Neds up mysel many times along with Cat's , Arya,and Sansa, but it all begins with LF and Lysa all of it.

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Yeah, I had to go back to rewatch that, I got it wrong earlier, obviously.   Arya's suggestion is a wee bit overblown (like x1000), but Sansa still blew the situation by not stuffing the Lords' bitching in the great hall.

Arya is now trained in lying and detecting lies, and she saw right through Sansa's lies in that scene.  Sansa may even be lying to herself about what she wants at this point, but her fealty to Jon's rule is just so much hot air, because manners, etc.  Arya's not playing games with Sansa, and certainly not the game of faces.  But she IS testing Sansa, to determine Sansa's  loyalty to the family, rather than to herself.  

Little sister has always been and will always be the smarter sister.  She sees life as it is, and not how she wishes it to be.

Edited by Blonde Gator
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6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa wanted to retake her home and Jon was fully on board with that.  Rickon was a dead man regardless

If Jon thought Rickon was such a dead man, why did he rush alone onto the field of battle to try and rescue him?

Motive matters.

Jon was on board with retaking Winterfell because that's where Ramsey and Rickon were and he was convinced that it was the best way to stop Ramsey from killing his little brother and his sister and all the Wildlings he'd just saved from a horrible death at the hands of the White Walkers.

He certainly wasn't doing it because he wanted to become king. He kept telling Sansa that she was the Lady of Winterfell and it was Lyanna Mormont who first put forth the idea that Jon should be king; seconded by Glover and affirmed by the whole assembly minus Littlefinger.

Jon is the ANTI-Conqueror and virtually Dany's opposite. Elected King vs. Self-Appointed Queen, No fancy titles vs. a catalogue of titles she's given herself, Reluctant Hero vs. Ruthless Conqueror... even trivially; male vs. female, black hair vs. white hair (and in the books grey eyes vs. eyes of an intense violet color). Hell, Jon even mercy-killed a man to keep him from being burned alive.

 

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

 I recall St Jon Snow demanding loyalty from Alys Karstark and Ned Umber with the implied threat they'd lose their homes if they didn't

Because again... let's pretend that taking away land from a vassal unwilling to swear allegiance to the king elected by the rest of those present is exactly on the same level of morality as as burning someone alive for refusing to kneel to their captor before the outcome war had even been decided.

I recall someone upthread saying it was because they were kids and if they hadn't knelt as adults he'd have killed them and I have to say "Facts Not in Evidence." There is ZERO evidence that Jon would execute someone not actually under his chain of command for refusing to become part of his chain of command (which is what the liege-vassal relationship was all about). If they haven't yet sworn allegiance in the first place, they can't be committing treason by refusing to do so... they just don't get to be nobles.

One of the interesting things about feudalism is that the titles of the lesser nobles weren't technically hereditary, they were just traditionally hereditary on the condition that the heir swear allegiance to their liege as their predecessor did. Failure to swear meant they did not get the titles or land and the liege could give it to someone else, as happened to the Starks when their lands and titles were given to House Bolton and to the Tullys when their lands and titles were given to the Freys despite the previous heir Edmure being alive and well in the dungeons.

Jon Snow's alternative punishment for failure to kneel to the reigning king was less severe than even Tyrion's suggestions for punishments (the dungeons or the Wall) for prisoners of war ordered to declare Dany the victor before she'd won more than a single battle after a string of rather decisive losses.

Frankly, the very fact that false moral equivalencies are having to be used to declare what Dany the Despot did as "not so bad" in comparison says to me that her actions really don't stand up to moral judgement that well.

Its reached the point that even non-diehard fans have begun to notice Dany's behavior... we had the article from Business Insider upthread; here's another...

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2017/8/14/16143688/game-of-thrones-daenerys-targaryen-episode-5-eastwatch

At this point the biggest strike against Dany though is that Tyrion declared in this episode with certainty that Dany WILL win the war. The little guy hasn't been right about anything in years (since he killed his father really... maybe there's something to that kinslayer curse after all).

 

3 hours ago, Francie said:

I'd like permission to take your post out for dinner and a drink. Somewhere nice, with linen napkins and everything.

My posts are pretty fond of your posts as well... a chaperone might be necessary lest our posts get ideas and we end up with grandbaby posts. :D

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8 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yeah, I had to go back to rewatch that, I got it wrong earlier, obviously.   Arya's suggestion is a wee bit overblown (like x1000), but Sansa still blew the situation by not stuffing the Lords' bitching in the great hall.

Arya is now trained in lying and detecting lies, and she saw right through Sansa's lies in that scene.  Sansa may even be lying to herself about what she wants at this point, but her fealty to Jon's rule is just so much hot air, because manners, etc.  Arya's not playing games with Sansa, and certainly not the game of faces.  But she IS testing Sansa, to determine Sansa's  loyalty to the family, rather than to herself.  

Little sister has always been and will always be the smarter sister.  She sees life as it is, and not how she wishes it to be.

Game of faces is a test, she is testing Sansa, and Sansa doesn't need to lie, Jon doesn't come back she's still Lady of Winterfell, and Arya also moves up, Sansa's job becomes harder, and her baby sis should recgognize that, right now she sees what she wants to see, not whats there.

 Arya no smarter then Sansa, she just has a different skill set, and she would fail politics and castle,land management 101 in a heart beat, just like Sansa would fail at self defense 101, and weapons handling.

Edited by GrailKing · Reason: Added info.
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6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

 I recall St Jon Snow demanding loyalty from Alys Karstark and Ned Umber with the implied threat they'd lose their homes if they didn't

I never heard of justifying one tyrant's cruel methods in a constant compare and contrast to another "King's" methods. 

I evaluate Daenerys based on her own actions and not within some compare and contrast barometer. She was wrong to use her dragons like nuclear weapons. Jon Snow said it best and the articles I posted above serve to validate my opinion.

You can have your opinion and I have mine and this is not a debate where one of us is right and the other is wrong. We can agree to disagree. 

Edited by DakotaLavender
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2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Game of faces is a test, she is testing Sansa, and Sansa doesn't need to lie, Jon doesn't come back she's still Lady of Winterfell, and Arya also moves up, Sansa's job becomes harder, and her baby sis should recgognize that, right now she sees what she wants to see, not whats there.

How can she be playing the Game of Faces, if she's "playing" an opponent who has no idea that there is a game?   Sansa's an amateur liar, she always has been. 

Arya's merely probing for information right now, nothing more.  Arya doesn't remotely care about "moving up" in Winterfell.  She's been gone a long time, and is merely trying to get the lay of the land.   The sisters would do well to both back off a bit, to just get reacquainted, but I seriously doubt D&D will waste time on that.   They'd much rather stir up faux drama.

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On 8/16/2017 at 2:43 AM, doram said:

Dany offers a bull-headed idiot and his equally IQ-deficient son a chance to keep their lives, and their lands and titles if they stopped serving the evil bitch that killed their liege lord and wiped out her whole family - while also forgiving them for killing Dany's ally - and they waltzed their way into dragon-fire --- but she's evil?

They did not view Cersei as an evil bitch and their choice was to not bend the knee out of fear.

This is deteriorating into a conversation that parallels a topical and current political discussion where two parties keep endlessly arguing points. At some point it makes sense to just post your own opinion and to stop arguing because this is not a debate where we have to convince one another who is right and who is wrong, We disagree and that's that. 

Edited by DakotaLavender
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5 minutes ago, doram said:

Did you watch the episode? Because Jon Snow* specifically advised her not to use her dragons to burn cities --- and she didn't - she used them in the field of battle**.

The dragons are not nuclear weapons. Enough with the hyperbole. The best analogy you can use for them is a military airforce in a pre-aviation-stage world. 

Using superior military technology - be it guns vs arrows or dragons vs infantry - is how wars are won. 

 

 

*Not that Jon - "I will kill a man begging for his life because he was insubordinate when there are ice prisons available for this exact reasonSnow follows Geneva Convention either. But when Jon does that, he's being a bad-ass.

 

**Against Lannister soldiers who has just finished massacring and looting Highgarden and Tarly soldiers who had betrayed and were complicit in the murder Olenna Tyrell. Cry me a river for all these victims.

 

Robb Stark sacrificed his own men as a distraction for the Lannister army and not one word was uttered about the inhumanity of that, instead Robb was praised (rightly, for the record but still) as a brilliant military strategist.

Dany offers a bull-headed idiot and his equally IQ-deficient son a chance to keep their lives, and their lands and titles (!!!) if they stopped serving the evil bitch that committed mass murder, then killed their liege lord and wiped out her whole family - while also forgiving them for killing Dany's ally - and they waltzed their way into dragon-fire --- but she's evil?

Exactly.

IT IS A WAR.  As Jon said, before the BotB, we fight with the Army we have.  And Dany is fighting with the weapons we have.  And she rightly took the advice of both Tyrion and Jon, to NOT burn castles and cities.   Fighting a war is another story.  A battlefield isn't a polite game of cards.  Fight to win or go home. 

Every single Westerosi soldier is familiar with the stories of Aegon's Conquest.  And each soldier knows EXACTLY what that's all about.  Just because the Conquest was 300 years ago, the horror of the possibilities should be apparent to every single commander and combatant.  Jaime knew the moment he saw it (and tried to explain that the Dothraki on their own would outclass any Westerosi army as well).   IMO, Dany has shown restraint where it was necessary, and in unleashing Drogon when she did, should be able to save many, many lives, as the rest of Westeros decides whether or not to kneel.  Because they have been reminded once again what fighting an opponent with dragons is all about. 

I don't blame Dany or judge her in any way for this.  She needs to win, in the most expeditious and economic (and I mean that in terms of her own troops) means possible.  She is doing that, as any great battle commander does. 

As for evil....Cersei is the evil one.  She demands OTHERS do her fighting for her, regardless of the cost, because after all, it doesn't cost her a thing, and she's using borrowed money and borrowed lives, not to mention soon to be using paid-for armies.

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42 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

How can she be playing the Game of Faces, if she's "playing" an opponent who has no idea that there is a game?   Sansa's an amateur liar, she always has been. 

Arya's merely probing for information right now, nothing more.  Arya doesn't remotely care about "moving up" in Winterfell.  She's been gone a long time, and is merely trying to get the lay of the land.   The sisters would do well to both back off a bit, to just get reacquainted, but I seriously doubt D&D will waste time on that.   They'd much rather stir up faux drama.

Same same as the waif to Arya, we can call it probing, but the faceless crew calls it game of faces, probing for lies.

Whether she cares or not, it's still her heritage, and Sansa is right to protect that for her and Bran, Arya's not forced to take it, and has every right to refuse it, like Bran.

Sansa's a better liar then most, it was the first thing she was taught by the Hound / Baleish,it kept her alive and reduced Joffery's assaults.

Edited by GrailKing · Reason: Sansa lies.
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2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I have to disagree with you here.  Her fashion statement is clearly Romulan (straight forward, militaristic) and not Vulcan (robes & hoods) :P

Beware Romulans bearing gifts.

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30 minutes ago, doram said:

One of the best and most beautiful things in 7x4 was watching Dany ride into battle herself, leading the charge. I will love that opening shot of Drogon flying towards the Lannister line for that alone.

While Cersei sits in King's Landing, so disconnected from the battle that she accused Bronn - who saved her literal fuckbrother's life - of treason, Dany was out there in the field, risking her life alongside her army.

 

And one thing that it's important to know is that Westerosi respect strength. It's not entirely about fear, but about strength. There are a lot of people, Lannister soldiers included - who hate Cersei's guts and would be happy to serve someone else, anyone else, really. Heck, we saw Ed Sheeran and his merry band of Good Lannister Soldiers (an attempt to humanise Dany's enemies, that wasn't extended to her own army. Why didn't we see a merry band of Dothraki soldiers camping around a fire too?)  But those soldiers will remain loyal to Cersei as long as they believe that she's the Queen with strength. And strength isn't just about having a bigger army or dragons, it's the ruthlessness to use them.

If Dany keeps wringing her hands and worrying about people not liking her, while her allies are dying around her, those soldiers who would be otherwise happy to ditch Cersei - will stick to Cersei out of fear of Cersei because they know that Cersei's ruthlessness will win over Dany's Miss Congeniality Campaign. They see what happens to people who take Dany's side. 

Dany had to give a show of power - show the people that she has the means to protect them and she will use it.  No one will fight on the losing side and as long as Dany stuck to Tyrion's idiotic "pacifist" ideals, she was going to lose. 

Once again, that's all well and good, but that still fails to show how is she going to break the wheel? She's the one bringing cultures known for rape and murder here. She's the one using dragons to execute people, and she's the one who's talking out of both sides of her mouth.  She's doing the same thing that every other leader did before her. Hell, not even that since Robert was able to get people to flip to his side without the threat of violence.   It's one thing to use your dragons for war but she's going beyond that.

Her allies died because they failed to do their job. You want to say Tyrion had a bad plan, fine, but what about the fact that Oleanna didn't even know that she lost her own banner men. Let's also ignore the fact that Yara and Theon and their crew of iron men got snuck up on by Euron.  


Comparing her to other leaders does nothing, because by her own words, she's supposed to be better than them. 

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13 minutes ago, doram said:

If Dany was waging war the way every other leader before her did, she'd have been seating on the Iron Throne since Episode 1.

If Dany was doing what every  other leader before her did, she'd have killed the Tarlys for treason (Robb Stark. Jon Snow. ad nauseum). Or she'd have stripped them off lands and titles and impoverished them. (Sansa Stark). Or tortured them in inventive ways. (Cersei). 

Death by dragon? Her saying join me or die is the same tactic that most leaders both before the show and during the show use. Just because she was nicer about it doesn't make it better.

 

16 minutes ago, doram said:

Robert's Rebellion was a pacifist movement?

I wasn't talking about the Rebellion I was talking about certain battles when Robert was able to convince enemies to join his side without threats. I mean sure, young Robert is probably more charismatic than Dany, but still if we're holding her up to the example of past leaders...

17 minutes ago, doram said:

The "Ed Sheerans" and the nobles aren't going to think "Oh, Olenna and the Dorne and Iron Born were stupid. If joined with Dany, I'd be much smarter and not end up getting killed by Cersei."

I'm fine with her adapting accordingly. I have no problem whatsoever with her using the dragons in the war,  her problems reside with behaviors after the war. Why would anybody who hasn't been forced to bend the knee i.e. people who aren't her enemies, bend the knee to someone known for executing people with dragons? 

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All this "Dany is the same as everyone else so how is she breaking the wheel" posts keep missing the point that Dany can't break the wheel until she is ruling Westeros, and to rule Westeros she has to win this war. I mean we all love that presidential candidate that won't play hardball during election cycles because of their principles but if those "principles" cost Team Good the election, and it ends up going to Team Evil.... then all those lovely principles ended up doing diddly-squat for the common people. 

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4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

All this "Dany is the same as everyone else so how is she breaking the wheel" posts keep missing the point that Dany can't break the wheel until she is ruling Westeros, and to rule Westeros she has to win this war. I mean we all love that presidential candidate that won't play hardball during election cycles because of their principles but if those "principles" cost Team Good the election, and it ends up going to Team Evil.... then all those lovely principles ended up doing diddly-squat for the common people. 

If I say I want to get money out of politics than in my next breath, I'm accepting wall street money to help me become president, I'd hope that I'd be called a hypocrite, for acting like all the other candidates that I accuse of being crooked. I'm of the opinion either practice what you say, or don't say it.  

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4 minutes ago, doram said:

I'm sorry but nothing will convince me that the Tarlys stupidly walking to their deaths in loyalty to Cersei "I blow up Septs" Lannisters, after betraying Dany's ally and getting a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card from Dany that involved them keeping their lands and titles ... was anything short of immensely stupid on the Tarlys's part. Sam clearly got all the brains in that family and Dany did the country a favour by taking those two out of the gene pool. 

So we're going to have to disagree to agree on that one. 

Upvoted.  

Dany offered the Tarlys Life+Wealth+Titles vs Death. They chose Death. 

As the producers of the show said, "it was a win-win situation and the Tarlys still found a way to lose."

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2 minutes ago, doram said:

'm sorry but nothing will convince me that the Tarlys stupidly walking to their deaths in loyalty to Cersei "I blow up Septs" Lannisters, after betraying Dany's ally and getting a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card from Dany that involved them keeping their lands and titles ... was anything short of immensely stupid on the Tarlys's part. Sam clearly got all the brains in that family and Dany did the country a favour by taking those two out of the gene pool. 

The Tarley's don't even matter in this situation, because even if they didn't walk into their own death, the threat of death by dragon was still there.

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Firstly, Dany had the Tyrells, the Martells, and the Iron born without any threats. That's 3 out of 7 Kingdoms.

Secondly, I am quite certain that having an army from 3 Kingdoms (The Vale, the North and the Stormlands) greatly boosted Robert's charisma. He didn't charm them into joining his side by serenading them. 

Dany was at war with none of those people. I wasn't talking about recruiting before a battle,  I was referring to his ability to turn enemies into allies after a battle. 

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Dany's still at war. After the war, we can then decide whether she's using her dragons judiciously or not. 

She can either treat her POWs accordingly or be considered a tyrant with dragons. In other words, more of the same except with dragons.

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On 8/13/2017 at 9:13 PM, Macbeth said:

I don't think Bran will be warging into any Dragons to fight the Night King.  His mark is on Bran, and he can push Bran out of any animal if he senses him.

I think people have placed way too much important in that Night King's touch. I think it was only important to the episode it was in, perhaps a way to specifically get past the Children's magic there. I don't think Bran was pushed out of the dream in this episode, just got spooked and so ended his spying for the moment.

On 8/14/2017 at 6:43 AM, WatchrTina said:

Oh you sweet summer child.  That team heading out into the snow was clearly an homage to The Magnificent Seven, a 1960 western movie (remade in 2016) that was itself an American remake of Akira Kurosawa's 1954 masterpiece, Seven Samaurai.  The "Dirty Dozen" (1967) is probably also an inspiration.

Oh, for sure! I wouldn't be surprised if there's an earlier reference point, too; the team power walk is always an effective way to frame a shot. Buffy's merely the first time I remember seeing it.

Edited by TheGourmez
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2 minutes ago, doram said:

 According to what? Geneva Conventions? 

According to me, the viewer.  Act like a tyrant and get called a tyrant.  You don't get to pick and choose what bad behaviors you want to exhibit. You're either above the fray or you aren't and Dany clearly isn't. That's fine, she just shouldn't pretend like she is.

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2 minutes ago, doram said:

By Westerosi standards - in the context of her world - in comparison to the rest of the fray, Dany treated her defeated soldiers with leniency as I mentioned earlier. 

That's what the "fray" do in this world-verse.

So the only way to conclude that she's a tyrant is by judging her as a viewer with 21st century sensibilities. 

Agree to disagree.

I see obey me or else as the words of a tyrant regardless of what world or time period we're in.

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5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

All this "Dany is the same as everyone else so how is she breaking the wheel" posts keep missing the point that Dany can't break the wheel until she is ruling Westeros, and to rule Westeros she has to win this war. I mean we all love that presidential candidate that won't play hardball during election cycles because of their principles but if those "principles" cost Team Good the election, and it ends up going to Team Evil.... then all those lovely principles ended up doing diddly-squat for the common people. 

The problem I have with her "break the wheel" spiel is that she has never articulated what that really means. Deposing all of the noble houses in Westeros? A representational democracy? A parliamentary republic? Because right now, the only thing she seems to think is that putting her house back in it's "rightful" place will fix all of Westeros's woes.

And there is a little uncomfortable fact that her plan to "break the wheel" doesn't address. As far as she knows, she is sterile and the last living Targaryen. Which would mean that House Targaryen's reign would last only as long as her lifetime. Without plans for what would happen for Westeros after Dany, the reality is that we would again see the Houses fighting for control or the kingdom would just break apart completely. None of these facts have been addressed in any way by her. She's fine at planning her conquests, but her long range planning leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited by Hana Chan · Reason: correcting a typo because i'm a riter and not a spiller
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3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Arya is now trained in lying and detecting lies, and she saw right through Sansa's lies in that scene.  Sansa may even be lying to herself about what she wants at this point, but her fealty to Jon's rule is just so much hot air, because manners, etc.  Arya's not playing games with Sansa, and certainly not the game of faces.  But she IS testing Sansa, to determine Sansa's  loyalty to the family, rather than to herself.  

 

Little sister has always been and will always be the smarter sister.  She sees life as it is, and not how she wishes it to be.

I keep seeing this and I'm confused (and too lazy to go through Arya's training scenes again): Is it cannon that Arya now ALWAYS will know if she's being lied to? As far as I remember, she was in the process of learning how to detect lies/how to succesfully lie herself, but a) she ran away from the Faceless Men before she finished her training and b) I didn't think it was a magical ability like the face-hanging, but more ...mundane. Like reading body language. And bias will throw that (non-magical) ability right out of the window, I should think.

So if I'm right, and it's not magic, why are we taking Arya's words as gospel? Isn't it far more likely that Arya is blinded by old biases - that she has a blindspot when it comes to her sister?

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I haven't had a chance to read most of the thread (18 pages is a lot), so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. But Dany is still the rightful queen of Westeros is she not? 

 

Legally, Jon (unknowingly) abdicated any right he had to the seven kingdoms when he took the night watch vows and the right passed on to his heir namely Dany. The only way now to reverse that would be a) Jon tries to take control back via force, good luck with that Jon or b) Dany willingly abdicates her right to the throne and declares him her heir in the absence of other blood relatives to pass it on to.

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6 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I have to disagree with you here.  Her fashion statement is clearly Romulan (straight forward, militaristic) and not Vulcan (robes & hoods) :P

I knew I was going to get that wrong. Thanks for the correction. lol

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14 hours ago, MadMouse said:

With the the questioning of Jon's rule. I think at this point you have to ask this question again, do the Northern lords truly believe in the threat of the White Walkers? If we go by what Jon and Davos said they have fewer than ten thousand men to fight. So are the Northern and Vale lords so proud and egotistical to think that's enough to stop them? If so that shows how stupid they really are and if they don't who else would Jon go to for support? The Riverlands are in chaos, Dorne is too far away, the Reach until recently was allied with the crown, the Ironborn who sacked their lands?, Cersei? Dany was the only logical choice. But then there's the question do they actually believe she has dragons? I go back to Jon and Davos's reaction which to me was the most realistic up to that point, wtf they're real? 

I think its very telling that Varys's a enuch from Lys,a cynical dwarf from the Westerlands and a Targaryen seem to believe more in the threat of the WW than the Northmen.

To be fair, Varys, Tyrion and Danaerys have at the minimum 3 visual reminders every day of ancient magic once considered long gone or merely the thing of old stories frequently told to children.  The northerners are doing a lot of preparation and putting a lot of trust essentially on the word of Jon Snow, known to them as merely a bastard son of their deceased liege lord.

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4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Death by dragon? Her saying join me or die is the same tactic that most leaders both before the show and during the show use. Just because she was nicer about it doesn't make it better.

 

I wasn't talking about the Rebellion I was talking about certain battles when Robert was able to convince enemies to join his side without threats. I mean sure, young Robert is probably more charismatic than Dany, but still if we're holding her up to the example of past leaders...

I'm fine with her adapting accordingly. I have no problem whatsoever with her using the dragons in the war,  her problems reside with behaviors after the war. Why would anybody who hasn't been forced to bend the knee i.e. people who aren't her enemies, bend the knee to someone known for executing people with dragons? 

I understood why she executed Randyll and Dickon but I think lighting them on fire was a huge mistake.  She should have given them a quick and "clean" death like Ned got.  But she wanted to instill fear into the conquered army and she succeeded.  You get a lot of mileage out of fear but I think you get more mileage if they also love you as well.  I can't see any of those soldiers loving Dany after that display.

As another poster noted, Randyll should have bent the knee and then looked for ways quietly to overthrow her.  He and Dickon accomplished nothing by accepting execution.

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16 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

BTW, Arya didn't suggest beheading the recalcitrant Lords, Sansa was the one who brought that up.  But typical Sansa, she had to deflect into something else to avoid admitting that Arya had a very valid point, Sansa is appeasing these Lords without correction, in an attempt to amass her own power base.  Arya caught her dead to rights in her motives. 

 

No, sorry, Arya raised it -- the dialogue went like this (and I just re-checked it):

Sansa:  Glover has 500 men, Royce has 2,000: offend them, and Jon loses his army.

Arya: Not if they lose their heads first. 

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5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Once again, that's all well and good, but that still fails to show how is she going to break the wheel? She's the one bringing cultures known for rape and murder here. She's the one using dragons to execute people, and she's the one who's talking out of both sides of her mouth.  She's doing the same thing that every other leader did before her. Hell, not even that since Robert was able to get people to flip to his side without the threat of violence.   It's one thing to use your dragons for war but she's going beyond that.

Her allies died because they failed to do their job. You want to say Tyrion had a bad plan, fine, but what about the fact that Oleanna didn't even know that she lost her own banner men. Let's also ignore the fact that Yara and Theon and their crew of iron men got snuck up on by Euron.  


Comparing her to other leaders does nothing, because by her own words, she's supposed to be better than them. 

Roose Bolton, Ramsey Bolton -- Not only carried their house sigil into battles, but took it a step further with actual visual aids.  Rape, murder culture?  Check and check.  They were only allowed to fly their freak flag freely and as they wished after alignment with House Lannister.

The Greyjoys - Dany aligned with Yara/Theon -- and promptly told them the reaving and raping was o-v-e-r.  Cersei aligned with Euron - smiled benignly at the promise he would do as he would to gain her hand in marriage.

I suppose you do make a point, Cersei is only talking out of one side of her mouth.

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1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I haven't had a chance to read most of the thread (18 pages is a lot), so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. But Dany is still the rightful queen of Westeros is she not? 

 

Legally, Jon (unknowingly) abdicated any right he had to the seven kingdoms when he took the night watch vows and the right passed on to his heir namely Dany. The only way now to reverse that would be a) Jon tries to take control back via force, good luck with that Jon or b) Dany willingly abdicates her right to the throne and declares him her heir in the absence of other blood relatives to pass it on to.

Jon Snow, Stark bastard with no Stark and certainly no Targaryen birthright took the vows of the NW, leaving nothing to any heirs.  He served the Watch faithfully, becoming Lord Commander and was murdered at the Wall. 

Jon? Givenbirthnametoberevealed Targaryen  has never assumed his birthright as of yet, has never sworn vows to the NW.

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Actually, I think would prefer death by dragon to the" off with their heads" bit. I have a definite fear of dismemberment. And after reading about the execution of Margaret Pole, the Countess of Salisbury the last victim of the War of the Roses, some decades after the war was over, I definitely wouldn't want to go under the axe. It took ten swings to get it right with her. EEEK!  We see clean executions on these shows but in fact it was a horribly messy business and didn't always go right. Henry VIII sent all the way to France for a special executioner for Anne Boleyn because he needed her execution to be clean, should have done the same for Margaret. 

 

Anyway, hanging, an awful death, 15 minutes perhaps if you didn't have a loved one to hang off your feet to hasten your death. 

Burning at the stake, no thanks. Quite the show for the crowd but not such a wonderful deal for the choking victim who might live long enough to feel the heat grow.

Poisoning? Now Olenna had a great death, Too bad Qyburn's magic painless poison isn't available to more. Most poisons are slow and excruciating.

Hung, drawn and quartered.  YIKES! No, no, no no NO!!

Quick incineration by Dragon?  Looking pretty good compared to most of the others.

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4 hours ago, feverfew said:

I keep seeing this and I'm confused (and too lazy to go through Arya's training scenes again): Is it cannon that Arya now ALWAYS will know if she's being lied to? As far as I remember, she was in the process of learning how to detect lies/how to succesfully lie herself, but a) she ran away from the Faceless Men before she finished her training and b) I didn't think it was a magical ability like the face-hanging, but more ...mundane. Like reading body language. And bias will throw that (non-magical) ability right out of the window, I should think.

So if I'm right, and it's not magic, why are we taking Arya's words as gospel? Isn't it far more likely that Arya is blinded by old biases - that she has a blindspot when it comes to her sister?

I don't think arya will always know, but she can read people pretty will regarding lying and motives. She'll have some missteps. With Sansa, imo, she accurately assessed the situation. She didn't say Sansa wanted the position because she's evil or anything and she also acknowledged that Sansa doesn't want to entertain the forbidden thoughts. 

Thr nuance is aryas assessment as well as Sansas reaction to it says that arya was correct. 

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6 hours ago, Nanrad said:

And that is why I said: right or wrong. I believe I specifically highlighted that for this exact reason. It's equally valid to assume a person has change as it is to assume that they haven't changed. In aryas opinion, Sansa hasn't. But, arya is drawing from her experiences with Sansa just as Sansa drew from her experience with arya. Sansa doesn't perceive arya as a changed person. Part of my comment was explaining that we need to see them from their actual experience and what they know and not what WE know. Even then who is to say she grasped the severity, significance, and made the connection. What's obvious to us isn't always obvious to others. Basically, I'm trying to figure out why this point is being argued.

Sansa can read people, but clearly her politics are suited for KL and not winterfell. Arya may not be politically savvy, but she was right in saying Sansa needs to defend Jon (better). And she doesn't need to know how to play the game to read people. Lol. I believe that is actually part of her training. Lol. You don't become a success faceless man but not knowing how to read people. 

 

My point was, one of them: they've always had a contentious relationship and that isn't going to be easily discarded because of their traumatic experiences and because years have gone by. If Sansa can read people so well, she should've left the situation alone and brought it up later on. She told arya to speak, and then got upset when she did. Sansa the wise should've let arya bite her tongue, but she didn't. Ironically, arya was the one who showed restraint despite people swearing she's unstable and kills in a second flat (in reference to criticisms of her). Although she considers things, she's more thoughtful, careful, and considerate of her actions.

So you think Arya, without benefit of knowing all the history behind the lords' meeting she witnessed, is right that Sansa totally mismanaged it? Do you think that her "more thoughtful, careful and considerate" approach of threatening to cut off the complaining lords' heads was the right approach? Glover is being especially whiny, but Sansa knows he is only expressing the doubts the other lords are already thinking - the doubts she heard them ALL of them express to Jon's face before he left - even Lady Mormont. If she  threatens one of them with death just for now expressing those doubts when Jon didn't threaten them for it, how many of the other lords will back her up on that? Ironically, the only army she can absolutely depend on to obey her is Royce's, under the real command of LF. She absolutely MUST have the support of all the Northern lords of their own free will, and that requires the kid gloves approach she is taking. Threaten them and alienate them too much and she'll end up possibly abandoned by many of her Northern allies and dependent on the Vale forces for power - no doubt exactly where LF wants her. 

As for the idea that Sansa is in the wrong by asking Arya what's the matter? IMO, it shows that she CAN read Arya sufficiently to see that she seethes with anger that Sansa has no idea what she did to provoke - and therefore no idea how to stop doing what she did to make Arya angry. Sansa knows she does not know this 15 year old Arya with her unknown harsh experience, so she asks, to know her better. To admit ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Sansa knows she doesn't know Arya, so she asks. Arya thinks she already knows Sansa, so she DOESN'T ask, or even speak. And when pressed she doesn't really ask Sansa anything, she just TELLS her what she's already made up her mind to believe - that Sansa wants to betray Jon for power. Funny thing is, she SEES that Sansa sincerely wants to believe that Jon will come back so she can hand back the power, SEES that Sansa is so horrified at the possibility that Jon may not return that she tries not to think about it - but she dares at times to plan ahead just in case he doesn't, and even dares to think she can handle it well. This, to Arya, is a betrayal of Jon in itself. Unfortunately it's something Sansa can't stop doing just to placate Arya. We know even better than Sansa does that there's a real chance that Jon won't come back, and it's her job to prepare for that eventuality as much as any other the North faces - the job Jon gave her. If the only attitude that Arya finds acceptable is an absolute religious faith that Jon WILL come back and swift punishment of any blasphemers who dare worry otherwise, then Arya's anger will not go away if Sansa ignores it; best deal with it.

Sadly, both these girls are at cross-purposes when they BOTH need each other. Sansa DOES lack the experience in being steely when push comes to shove and diplomacy won't work, she needs Arya for that. But Arya needs a brake on her Violence First approach. She currently has NO middle gears and needs Sansa to modulate her. But she won't be able to work in tandem with her unless she's willing to keep an open mind to the possibility that Sansa is no longer exactly the same 12 year old silly selfish girl who screwed up badly once without understanding the stakes, all those years ago.

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shit ! bad news

it's out

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

So you think Arya, without benefit of knowing all the history behind the lords' meeting she witnessed, is right that Sansa totally mismanaged it? Do you think that her "more thoughtful, careful and considerate" approach of threatening to cut off the complaining lords' heads was the right approach? Glover is being especially whiny, but Sansa knows he is only expressing the doubts the other lords are already thinking - the doubts she heard them ALL of them express to Jon's face before he left - even Lady Mormont. If she  threatens one of them with death just for now expressing those doubts when Jon didn't threaten them for it, how many of the other lords will back her up on that? Ironically, the only army she can absolutely depend on to obey her is Royce's, under the real command of LF. She absolutely MUST have the support of all the Northern lords of their own free will, and that requires the kid gloves approach she is taking. Threaten them and alienate them too much and she'll end up possibly abandoned by many of her Northern allies and dependent on the Vale forces for power - no doubt exactly where LF wants her. 

As for the idea that Sansa is in the wrong by asking Arya what's the matter? IMO, it shows that she CAN read Arya sufficiently to see that she seethes with anger that Sansa has no idea what she did to provoke - and therefore no idea how to stop doing what she did to make Arya angry. Sansa knows she does not know this 15 year old Arya with her unknown harsh experience, so she asks, to know her better. To admit ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Sansa knows she doesn't know Arya, so she asks. Arya thinks she already knows Sansa, so she DOESN'T ask, or even speak. And when pressed she doesn't really ask Sansa anything, she just TELLS her what she's already made up her mind to believe - that Sansa wants to betray Jon for power. Funny thing is, she SEES that Sansa sincerely wants to believe that Jon will come back so she can hand back the power, SEES that Sansa is so horrified at the possibility that Jon may not return that she tries not to think about it - but she dares at times to plan ahead just in case he doesn't, and even dares to think she can handle it well. This, to Arya, is a betrayal of Jon in itself. Unfortunately it's something Sansa can't stop doing just to placate Arya. We know even better than Sansa does that there's a real chance that Jon won't come back, and it's her job to prepare for that eventuality as much as any other the North faces - the job Jon gave her. If the only attitude that Arya finds acceptable is an absolute religious faith that Jon WILL come back and swift punishment of any blasphemers who dare worry otherwise, then Arya's anger will not go away if Sansa ignores it; best deal with it.

Sadly, both these girls are at cross-purposes when they BOTH need each other. Sansa DOES lack the experience in being steely when push comes to shove and diplomacy won't work, she needs Arya for that. But Arya needs a brake on her Violence First approach. She currently has NO middle gears and needs Sansa to modulate her. But she won't be able to work in tandem with her unless she's willing to keep an open mind to the possibility that Sansa is no longer exactly the same 12 year old silly selfish girl who screwed up badly once without understanding the stakes, all those years ago.

Right now if Arya doesn't get control, I think it will end sadly and badly for her, Sansa is busy, Bran is busy, Jon is away, she's drifting like Rickon.

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8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

tenor.gif

Sansa does see Arya has changed, just as she's seen Bran has changed. And just like Bran she doesn't understand how and she is unsettled and disturbed by both. Arya still sees Sansa as the person she was in season 1 and that's understandable because she doesn't know what she went through. Some viewers who do know still see her as that person too and every time she questions Jon or isn't totally as proof that she'll betray him as Arya does. It's not just what she did on the Kingsroad back in season 1 but her prior relationship with Jon that was only hinted at after their reunion but was more detailed in the books. She didn't treat him as family as her brothers and Arya did but followed Catelyn's. She wasn't as hostile but she was still cold. Jon doesn't hold any resentment over that anymore but Arya does. Sansa despite her misgivings and doubts is supporting Jon but there is some truth that his being a bastard is affecting her overall attitude. She would never contradict Robb in public. Then again Robb would be just as dismissive of her advice as Jon.

Grailking:

God, I don't want any tearful revelation scene where they hug afterwards and that's how this whole conflict is resolved. "Oh you were raped repeatedly? SI guess we're cool now.orry I thought you were going to betray Jon! "  That's hacky soap shit.

The gif. Lol. My statement wasn't phrased correctly: arya can fight and other shit, but i think that Sansa still sees her as being the snotty sister who rejected societal rules. And that's why, pertaining their relationship, I don't think either has changed in how they necessarily perceive each other. 

Right, there won't be a testy reunion if arya were to find that out, she'd probably kill LF though.

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa most definitely sees Arya has changed, she's more vindictive, she's a harden fighter, she knows she has a list, she's still driven by hatred, and she knows it.

Despite what they went through Jon and Sansa are the two closer to normal, of course if they should survive and calm takes over then the flood of emotions will come forth with a vengeance.

Only part Sansa was upset about was Arya throwing in her face, that she took mom and dads room from Jon, because pretty things make her happy.

I think if Arya knew her sister was raped in those rooms she want to cut her own tongue out.

So Sansa has a right to be vindictive, but arya doesn't??? Sansa knows that arya has changed as a hardened fighter, but as far as their relationship goes, she still perceives her as the same. We're trying to act as if Sansa isn't falling into old habits with arya as if Sansa didn't sense aryas displeasure, and then told her to spit it out in annoyance. If Sansa had a list and was driven by hatred, you'd justify that. But, it's arya so that's different and thus bad and evil. 

Samsa can be upset about that too, but what upset her even more is arya accurately calling the situation for what it was even though she didn't want to have that desire of ruling even at jons expense. 

If arya found out that Sansa was raped, she'd kill all of those responsible. Probably even apologize, that's it. 

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2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I haven't had a chance to read most of the thread (18 pages is a lot), so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. But Dany is still the rightful queen of Westeros is she not? 

 

Legally, Jon (unknowingly) abdicated any right he had to the seven kingdoms when he took the night watch vows and the right passed on to his heir namely Dany. The only way now to reverse that would be a) Jon tries to take control back via force, good luck with that Jon or b) Dany willingly abdicates her right to the throne and declares him her heir in the absence of other blood relatives to pass it on to.

The show at least has clearly taken the position that the Night's Watch vows are until death, thus whatever promises Jon made ended with his death and resurrection.

More importantly though, from a writing perspective, it just makes for much better drama if Jon's claim supersedes, or at least offers a legitimate challenge to Dany's. And I'm not talking about drama regarding who gets to sit the throne in the end, but in terms of internal conflict. Think about how George RR Martin himself has described his writing goals:

Quote

I've always agreed with William Faulkner—he said that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I've always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing.

To me at least, the thing that makes Jon's heritage most interesting isn't how it impacts the game but how it impacts the characters, especially Jon and Dany since it strikes at the very core of their identities. For Jon it's obviously his identity as both a bastard and a son of Ned Stark, but for Dany, it's her identity as the last Targaryan and the rightful heir to the throne. If we're talking about Dany in particular this is important because when it comes to internal conflict, she's struggled at times when it comes to choosing her methods, but has never even once doubted the righteousness of her cause or the fact that she should be ruling (as evidenced by the number of times we've had to hear her repeat some version of "The Iron Throne/Westeros is mine by right"). She's spent years determined to restore the proper line of succession after it was disrupted by the usurper, so finding out that that so much of this is built on a lie and that by taking the throne she herself could be considered a usurper* should lead to something of an identity crisis for her. To throw away the opportunity to mine that drama in favour of saying "NBD, she's still the rightful queen" based on a technicality strikes me as anticlimactic, to say the least.

*BTW, I've always thought that this was the main purpose for Aegon in the books.

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3 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

The gif. Lol. My statement wasn't phrased correctly: arya can fight and other shit, but i think that Sansa still sees her as being the snotty sister who rejected societal rules. And that's why, pertaining their relationship, I don't think either has changed in how they necessarily perceive each other. 

Right, there won't be a testy reunion if arya were to find that out, she'd probably kill LF though.

So Sansa has a right to be vindictive, but arya doesn't??? Sansa knows that arya has changed as a hardened fighter, but as far as their relationship goes, she still perceives her as the same. We're trying to act as if Sansa isn't falling into old habits with arya as if Sansa didn't sense aryas displeasure, and then told her to spit it out in annoyance. If Sansa had a list and was driven by hatred, you'd justify that. But, it's arya so that's different and thus bad and evil. 

Samsa can be upset about that too, but what upset her even more is arya accurately calling the situation for what it was even though she didn't want to have that desire of ruling even at jons expense. 

If arya found out that Sansa was raped, she'd kill all of those responsible. Probably even apologize, that's it. 

Where is Sansa being vindictive?

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1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Poisoning? Now Olenna had a great death, Too bad Qyburn's magic painless poison isn't available to more. Most poisons are slow and excruciating

Essence of nightshade is pretty prevalent. Even Qyborn in Harenhall had some.  So available to even defrocked maesters. 

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