A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[jhlipton]

On 12/10/2017 at 8:30 PM, Camera One said:

What bad thing would happen to Roni's love ones if the Curse was broken

They have to watch Season 7 of OUAT and Season 1 of the Inhumans over and over and over...

[Camera One]

I was reading the EW article and apparently, in the scripts, Alt Enchanted Forest is called “New FTL” — New Fairy Tale Land. 

I know it's just a name, but how lazy to call it New.  Aren't there a couple million other FTL's out there?  

Edited December 14, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

The least they could have done was busted out a thesaurus.

The Delighted Thicket

The Happy Woodland

The Entranced Jungle

The Fascinated Woods

The Enraptured Timberland

It's not that hard.

[Camera One]

I have a question... why is Regina still dressed like Roni even though she remembers?  I know she needs to keep "in character" but Regina wouldn't be caught dead in some of the stuff she still wears... if this were really Regina, she would have started transitioning her wardrobe.

There was all this stuff about the newness of playing a new persona, but she basically played Roni for 6 episodes.  Robert played Weaver for even fewer.  

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

On 12/14/2017 at 0:17 PM, Mabinogia said:

The least they could have done was busted out a thesaurus.

The Delighted Thicket

The Happy Woodland

The Entranced Jungle

The Fascinated Woods

The Enraptured Timberland

It's not that hard.

I'm still partial to "The Disenchanted Forest" that we on the boards cooked up awhile back for our "Offscreensville is Better" idea that never came to fruition.

[Camera One]

Some of you will just love these new quotes from Adam and Eddy in an article titled, get this: "Once Upon a time" Creators Reveal What They've Learned from Season 7 Reboot.  

And spoiler alert, the headline was false advertising.

Let's start with Eddy:

Quote

"I think the people that have been very open to this new scenario have really liked it and liked the new energy of the storytelling," Kitsis said.

Got that?  It's your fault for not being open.

Quote

"We knew going in, of course, people are going to miss the cast that they've loved for six years. So for us, I guess it's the same learning lesson every year, which is some things work better than others. You just try to keep moving toward your goal and hopefully entertaining people. It's always a balance between your plans and the realities of how production works. We have a lot of new locations and we're in the city, so there's a lot of figuring out what kinds of stories we could tell versus what our plans were. That's always a balancing act."

He continued, "There are things that we think we can get better at, and I feel like every episode you're seeing that. So every episode from the very first one is us adjusting towards the things we think work. In the second half of the season, we continue to balance between the characters we knew and the new characters, especially the ones that we feel like people are really gravitating towards. As always, we're going to introduce some new people, but I think that we've started to work out some of the kinks of the new season. I think people will see in the second half of the season it finds its groove even more."

Every episode, they're adjusting, eh?  No wonder it's such a mess.  It looks like they do write more for the characters they "feel people are really gravitating towards".  Which is who, exactly?  I guess Ivy and Tiana would be the main two?

Quote

Added Horowitz, "the thing about self-criticism is we do it all the time. We try to hold every story and every script and every episode up to the highest standards. I really do think there is no tougher critic on the show than ourselves. ...As the show comes along, we discover what works and what doesn't work and try to play to our strengths and keep improving the show. I think that's been true every year. As long as we're doing this show, it's something we always strive to do. We know nothing is ever perfect, but we try to always push it as far [as we can]."

Highest standards?  Thanks for the laughs.  

[Souris]

Ha! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

If I could put what comes out of their mouths into my garden, my plants would flourish!

[cappoe]

They're in freaking lala land there's no other reaction. Like this screams like they know how bad the writing is but it's your fault for not giving a crap about the newbies. That 0.4 sure tells you how much of your audience is giving this a chance. Idiots, cancellation can't come soon enough.'

I don't see them getting rid of Jacinda, Henry/Cinderella, Hyperion Heights, and the majority of the characters that multiple outlets and majority of fans hate so yeah not buying this.  Sounds like they know they're cancelled to me.

Edited December 16, 2017 by cappoe

[ParadoxLost]

I always love it when they proclaim they are adjusting for improvement because they know what the viewers are gravitating toward.

Notice that they didn't name a single character in their protestations that they know what characters viewers are and are not gravitating toward.

Its the keep watching we have no idea what to fix but we want viewers to think we do and tune in the new year article.

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Quote

"I think the people that have been very open to this new scenario have really liked it and liked the new energy of the storytelling," Kitsis said.

Got that?  It's your fault for not being open.

I am one of the folks who was VERY open to it. I stopped watching the show the past two seasons because I was sick of Emma. I don't like Emma, never really did. So I was actually excited to see a show without her. I am deeply, deeply disappointed. There is absolutely NO energy in the storytelling. 

 

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

It looks like they do write more for the characters they "feel people are really gravitating towards".  Which is who, exactly?  I guess Ivy and Tiana would be the main two?

If that means killing off Jacinda and Lucy, I'd stick around. Just to reward them for getting rid of two of the most annoying characters I've ever seen on television. 

 

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

I really do think there is no tougher critic on the show than ourselves.

Wow, they must literally beat themselves with whips and chains every moment of every day if they are tougher critics than we are. lol The also seem to have the lowest high standards ever. This last ep, the witch one, was a hot mess. If that is the highest standard they can reach they need to rethink their career choice. I can't believe they get paid, really well, for this shit. That's what bothers me the most because I think about 90% of the people on this thread could write the show better, plot the show better, cast the show better, and make the show better than they have. 

[tennisgurl]

You know, that whole "I didn't come here to talk about timelines" thing with Regina is REALLY pissing me off. Its clear that A&E think that fans trying to actually deseipher their convoluted plotting is stupid and a waste of time, and that we should basically pull an MST3K. You know, "repeat to yourself, its just a show, I should really just relax". Well, if you gave us something BETTER to focus on, maybe we would! I can put up with a LOT of questionable plot or background stuff from my entertainment, especially when it comes to things like parallel universes and time travel and such, because thats always going to be confusing and weird and be riddled with plot holes (with a few exceptions) but, if its a good story with characters that I like and they use their convoluted plot to tell good stories, then, yeah sure, I dont need to talk about timelines and can just relax and go with it. But, when they give us a boring plot, dull characters (and the few good ones, we hardly see) with nonsensical motivations, crappy world building, meh acting, and a lot of convoluted ret cons, and yeah, I AM going to focus on your stupid plot holes because what else do I have to talk about? Murderella and Henry's dull as dirt romance? Henry's nonexistent relationship with Lucy? Regina/Ronnie and her one liners? Your giving me nothing! The few things I do like, we dont get enough of to focus on!

The other thing that bugs me is that, its just the writers telling us that they know their plot sucks and is beyond convoluted, and they dont care. When a good show makes one of those meta comments, its usually because the show is acknowledging a failure and is promising to do better ,or they're just laughing at an intrinsic part of how the show is (like whenever they make fun of Clark Kent and his glasses of invisibility. Everyone knows its silly, but its so important to the story, it will never change) and inviting the audience to laugh with them. This is just telling the audience to shut up and swallow whatever crap they're selling. Theyre saying "Yeah, we know this is stupid, and we dont care, and we think your dumb for caring." I mean, its only how the entirety of how this world is supposed to work, why would we care that details like THAT?! Shut up show!

[Camera One]

35 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, that whole "I didn't come here to talk about timelines" thing with Regina is REALLY pissing me off. 

Everyone knows its silly, but its so important to the story, it will never change) and inviting the audience to laugh with them. This is just telling the audience to shut up and swallow whatever crap they're selling.

I have a feeling they're actually laughing AT us with that line.  I can imagine the entire Writers' Room chuckling over that one for days.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Given what we now know from the winter finale, why did Ivy wait so long to spring Gothel?  Why wait 'til Henry came to town?  Why would Victoria (thinking she cast the Curse) take so long to unearth Anastasia?  Why didn't she try harder to destroy Lucy's belief earlier?  Why didn't she bring on Nick sooner?  

Before the season started, A&E said the new Curse Caster realized that it was best to separate all the people from fairytale land so they couldn't have their happy endings.  But who really cares?  Could anyone break the Curse?  It's implied it's basically just Henry and Jacinda or Lucy who could break it.

Why would The Guardian who can take Rumple's dagger be from some random Alternate Enchanted Forest?  How exactly would it work for the Guardian to take Rumple's Dark One-ness from him?  Was there just one Dark One or was there one in every Alt Enchanted Forest out there?  Why would Rumple test Anastasia out in the Police locker?  Why choose the most obvious place where Gothel or Ivy might look to find them?  

[tennisgurl]

30 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I have a feeling they're actually laughing AT us with that line.  I can imagine the entire Writers' Room chuckling over that one for days.

*Buzz Lightyear voice* "Your mocking me, arent you?" 

[jmonique]

The other thing that bothers me about the timelines is Hook, Zelena and Regina are the same ages as always, but Rapunzel aged into Tremaine? Zelena and Regina’s mother was visibly older than them. Like, when does the aging switch flip on?

[Camera One]

18 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

AND since the only reason that Alice is still "asleep" is that Victoria wanted her that way because she didn't want anyone interfering with the curse that Victoria thought she herself had cast.  Now that everything is pretty much out in the open anyway, there's no longer any reason for Victoria to want or need to keep Alice under the curse, unless Gothel still wants her that way for some reason.

That's a very good point.  These 3 months will give us time to do a systematic analysis of whether the present-day scenes in the first 9 episodes made sense in light of the "huge" reveals in Episode 10.  Where did Regina get the vial of Wake-Up juice and why can't Rumple get one for Alice and Whook?

Edited December 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I realized Rumple can just tell Alice to stop taking her meds.  But he won't.  Because they don't want her to remember yet.

Behind-the-scenes planning session for 7B:

ADAM: Alright, Writing Team.  Frankly, we're all getting bored of these new characters we created.  They're awesome of course but our minds work so quickly we can't dwell on the same people for too long.  ABC also threatened us to make sure our new characters can be tested on the audience before we make them an integral part of the plot.  What should we do?

EDDY: I just had an awesome idea.  Coven of 8 anonymous faceless hooded robes and we can put in whoever we want to and test them out one by one on the idiots, uh, I mean the audience!

ADAM: All in favor raise your hands, robotrons.

ALL WRITERS RAISE HAND IN UNISON.

A&E: Okay, it's decided.  Everyone brainstorm a list of female Disney characters we want to destroy.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I realized Rumple can just tell Alice to stop taking her meds.  But he won't.  Because they don't want her to remember yet.

I haven't figured out how that was supposed to work, anyway. She took one bite of drugged sandwich, which made her upset. Did she become diligent about taking her meds after that? Or were they really meds? Was it maybe a potion to make her go deeper under the curse, and her real meds are actually irrelevant? Because it's hard to believe that one bit of a sandwich with a pill crushed up in it would lead to her going "sane" and sticking with her meds. And apparently this nonmagical place is crawling with various potions.

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Where did Regina get the vial of Wake-Up juice and why can't Rumple get one for Alice and Whook?

That's if waking up Alice and Whook would do him any good. But then we'd need to know more about what was actually going on with them.

Mystery is one thing, but at some point they need to ground the story in something. There needs to be some setup for the payoff to actually pay off. But they've held off on giving us any information, which makes it hard to care too much or find any significance in anything. We don't know if Rumple's being an idiot, if Regina got the last vial of Wake-Up juice, or if there's some reason he wouldn't want them awake. You'd think it would have been smart to wake Rogers up before he released Gothel.

Generally, if there's been a big change, we need to see how things changed or establish the change somehow. Rumple and WHook have gone from being mortal enemies to Whook being sent to talk to Rumple and Rumple giving him the white elephant to help him stay with Alice. Yeah, this Rumple and this Hook aren't the ones who hurt each other, but it's hard to imagine Rumple being this cool with any version of Hook, and while Whook gave up revenge to raise Alice, would that make him okay with any Rumple who cut off any Hook's hand and killed any Milah? Rumple seems to be okay with and trusts Rogers. It's not like they're even really teasing that as a mystery, either. It's just sort of there, but not set up or explained.

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's just sort of there, but not set up or explained.

As with pretty much every development the last episode. As I said in the episode thread, it felt as if they had skipped a half-season and gone straight to the finale.

Btw, has Rumple stopped caring about Gidiot now that Belle's dead?

Edited December 18, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

As with pretty much every development the last episode. As I said in the episode thread, it felt as if they had skipped a half-season and gone straight to the finale.

I do wonder if putting Victoria (and Ivy) into a well and shifting the main villain role to Gothel and New Shiny Toys (the witch coven), and making Lucy sleep are examples of how they're shifting to characters that resonate more with viewers, as they said in the interviews.  The interviews also stressed that they love Ivy, so I wouldn't be surprised if they start having her eventually work with the good guys and redeem herself now that she has been betrayed.

I'm seriously not sure what they plan to do with Henry if Lucy is just in the hospital and he and Jacinda are basically together already.  

[Shanna Marie]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm seriously not sure what they plan to do with Henry if Lucy is just in the hospital and he and Jacinda are basically together already.  

Now that he "believes" he'll probably be looking for ways to save Lucy. Make that #SaveLucy.

And I'm sure we'll be expected to see it as a "redemption" when Ivy starts working with the good guys, even if she's only doing so because Gothel screwed her over.

[Camera One]

30 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And I'm sure we'll be expected to see it as a "redemption" when Ivy starts working with the good guys, even if she's only doing so because Gothel screwed her over.

Because she still needs to be sassy.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Now that he "believes"

That was so random and rushed, even more than with Emma in 1x22. It wasn't even clear to me at first what he believed. Did he believe in the curse? The entire book? Or does he just believe in Lucy? I'm gathering now that they meant he believes everything, but it was just so quick. Are we supposed to believe that the kiss not working made him doubt it once more?

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

That was so random and rushed, even more than with Emma in 1x22. It wasn't even clear to me at first what he believed. Did he believe in the curse? The entire book? Or does he just believe in Lucy? I'm gathering now that they meant he believes everything, but it was just so quick. Are we supposed to believe that the kiss not working made him doubt it once more?

I thought it was just a moment of desperation.  I never expected him to believe permanently from now on.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

That was so random and rushed, even more than with Emma in 1x22. It wasn't even clear to me at first what he believed. Did he believe in the curse? The entire book? Or does he just believe in Lucy? I'm gathering now that they meant he believes everything, but it was just so quick. Are we supposed to believe that the kiss not working made him doubt it once more?

I thought it was more that he believed in Lucy. I do think back to season 1, when Henry ate the apple turnover. Just before he ate it, I remember him distinctly saying to Emma (and it's one of my favourite lines of the entire series) "You may not believe in the curse, but I believe in you." I mean, Henry believing in Lucy makes zero sense as all Lucy really believes in is her parents getting back together with no memory as to her years in the Disenchanted Forest, but that's kind of how I picture the intent of that scene as going. At least with Emma's belief in 1x22, it was a buildup for the entire season. She couldn't believe but the proof was stacking up in front of her until Henry finally gave that one last push to get her to believe. 

So, in reality, I get the intent in Henry believing, but it really doesn't work because he doesn't believe what Lucy is saying about the curse, because he hasn't experienced what his own mom did back in season 1 to get him to that point. So I would have found it ridiculous if the curse had been broken or if Lucy had woken up at the end of the midseason finale, anyway. It just doesn't make much logical sense, especially since we've gotten so few scenes of Henry and Lucy to begin with. The show can't seem to make up its mind on what relationships to focus on this season. There's been a whole lot of wasted time on Henry/Jacinda, we've gotten creepy Gothel with Drizella, and we've gotten Regina/Henry (kind of), as well as Jacinda/Lucy, but that's about it. I know Alison can only film for a few hours a week, but they made better use of Jared in season 1, and I think he was even younger than Alison at that time. 

[Rumsy4]

Henry believing Lucy and trying the True Love's kiss came out of the blue. At least it didn't come across as creepy, but it came out of the blue. Why is Henry suddenly feeling so paternal towards Lucy? They've had three or four conversations in total, as far as I can recall. Jacinda trying a TLK on Lucy would've made more sense. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Henry believing Lucy and trying the True Love's kiss came out of the blue. At least it didn't come across as creepy, but it came out of the blue. Why is Henry suddenly feeling so paternal towards Lucy? They've had three or four conversations in total, as far as I can recall. Jacinda trying a TLK on Lucy would've made more sense. 

In S1, Henry was undeniably Emma's son from the get go. Here, Henry believes that Nick is Lucy's father. It makes the paternal bond less natural.

[Camera One]

Oh boy.

John Colter‏ @john_david9218 13 hours ago

Mr Horowitz .. On coming episodes do u guys let us know how zelena got her magic back?

Adam Horowitz‏Verified account @AdamHorowitzLA 6 hours ago

Replying to @john_david9218  Who said she got it back? #nospoilers

[KingOfHearts]

If she didn't get it back, how can she help Regina in a witch fight..?

Edited December 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

And why would the coven have been trying to recruit Zelena if she had no powers? Didn't she say something about them trying to recruit her, but she wasn't interested? Argh, I'm going to have to rewatch this episode because I watched it late at night after a very long, busy day, and I don't remember any details.

[Mabinogia]

I'm assuming he means Zelena has no powers in the Kelly present as opposed to the Disenchanted Forest where one has whatever powers one needs when they need them to further their storyline but have no powers if that is what is needed to further the storyline. Consistancy is NOT these writers strong suit. I now get what people mean when they say they have to "turn off their brain" to watch certain shows. This is definitely a full lobotomy kind of show.

[Rumsy4]

Whoever made up that phrase, "Disenchanted Forest", huge kudos to them! That along with "Murderella" about sums up my feelings about the "requel".  

[KingOfHearts]

6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm assuming he means Zelena has no powers in the Kelly present as opposed to the Disenchanted Forest where one has whatever powers one needs when they need them to further their storyline but have no powers if that is what is needed to further the storyline. Consistancy is NOT these writers strong suit. I now get what people mean when they say they have to "turn off their brain" to watch certain shows. This is definitely a full lobotomy kind of show.

I can't turn off my brain for this show because it's written like it wants to be the reincarnation of Lost. Galavant? Crazy Ex-Girlfriend? Riverdale? I don't need to ponder every detail with those. Even OUATIW, which was in the same vein as OUAT, needed less brain power for enjoyment. I think it's because the characters were likable and the writers were aware of how silly it was.

Edited December 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Mabinogia]

I can't speak to Crazy Ex, never seen it, but both Riverdale and Galavant are better held together than this, and one seems to take place in some 1950s 2010s hybrid small town and the other is a fantasy musical with singing monks and Tad Cooper. (I still believe in Tad Cooper, I still believe!) 

I feel like those shows have a reason to be nonsensical. With Riverdale they are paying homage to the original comics while giving them a modern twist, so visually they have a lot of 50s iconography but these are definitely modern teens. With Galavant, again, fantasy musical, so they are going to break into song and silliness and that was the shows charm. 

OUAT doesn't seem to be trying to be silly fun. It takes itself quite seriously, but it's utter crap. Nothing in it makes a damn bit of sense, and not in a Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency "all things are connected, I'm a leaf in the stream of creation" kind of way, but in a "was this written by illiterate monkeys on crack?" kind of way. 

I almost wish they had gone more of a Galavant route with this show. Stop trying to be some serious drama and embrace the fact that you are based on fantasy fairy tales. Some of the actors embraced it with their campy performances, but the show was still trying to be serious when, IDK why, but it just can't manage it. 

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm still trying to figure out how that "If we don't break the curse, Lucy dies, but if we break the curse, Henry dies" thing works.

Lucy's current condition has nothing to do with the curse, so I'm not sure how breaking the curse would help her, unless maybe it's that any TLK that breaks the curse putting her in her current condition would also have a spillover effect and break all curses in the vicinity, including the Hyperion Heights Dark Curse.

Now this curse (Drizella's by way of Regina) seems to have transported them to Seattle. We don't know if they were slotted into an existing neighborhood or if somehow a whole new neighborhood was created. It wiped their memories and gave them new personalities, and it must have also had an effect on the people of Seattle, who didn't notice this new neighborhood suddenly popping into existence, including police officers who must have some interaction with their higher-ups and the court system elsewhere in the city (for Weaver to have pull with judges). So, what gets "broken" if the curse gets broken? And how does that affect Henry? If it's a magical poison that doesn't work while they're in a place without magic, then restoring memories wouldn't change that unless Drizella dumps some True Love potion into a well.

 

8 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't even know what the curse did. It brought them to a land with, some magic, if it's needed for the plot, but some of them can leave, so they aren't trapped, the caster is an admit who works for the person she is trying to get revenge on, it's the worst curse ever! I have no idea what the point was. Ivy said something about killing Anastasia in front of her mom, but why did she have to send them to HH to do that? Why did the rest have to go? I can't even figure out why Gothel wanted them cursed. If Ana is the Guardian and Gothel wanted the Guardian, couldn't she have just taken her in the DF? Why bring them here? None of it makes a damned bit of sense to me.

These two posts really show how the winter finale had "lots of stuff happening" but it ultimately added very little to the underlying motivations that were needed to make the whole scenario make sense.

We already knew that Drizella wanted to cast the Curse and her reason for it, which still makes no sense despite this latest episode.  There was no light shed on Gothel's reasons for helping Drizella.  All that the flashback did was confirm stuff which were pretty obvious (we knew someone Roni loved was threatened.  So it was Henry.  What a surprise) and added the random coven of witches and the need for Regina's blood (which is a "twist" but ultimately means nothing and has no consequence on the plot or on character development).

Jacinda had the White Elephant so Lucy was still her daughter.  Did Tiana have a White Giraffe that allowed her to be roommates with her BFF?

What should we call the nebulously developed Mother Gothel... a Hollow Bunny™ perhaps?  

Edited December 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Did Tiana have a White Giraffe that allowed her to be roommates with her BFF?

I hadn't even thought about that one. If the curse was supposed to keep people apart, why did the BFFs get to stay together. Now, they could say the White Elephant lets the holder remember all their relationships, but then Jacinda would remember Henry, so it's specific to just Lucy for...reasons. I guess Jacinda happened to luck into getting her BFF as her BFF. I am not going to call Tiana lucky because first she's saddled with Murderella as a BFF then she gets Borecinda. Sounds more like a lose lose for her.

[tennisgurl]

57 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I can't speak to Crazy Ex, never seen it, but both Riverdale and Galavant are better held together than this, and one seems to take place in some 1950s 2010s hybrid small town and the other is a fantasy musical with singing monks and Tad Cooper. (I still believe in Tad Cooper, I still believe!) 

 

All three of those are specifically stylized and often act as deconstructions, parody, or homages to other genres, so it makes sense when the plot doesn't always make a whole lot of real world sense. Plus, they're just a million times better written in general. A silly show can be well written, they just have different goals. You can focus more on style or jokes instead of making sure everything makes sense. Once has dabbled in all of that, but it insists, especially as the years have gone by, on taking itself SUPER seriously, and that makes it hand to hand waive the inconsistencies and plot holes. It wants to be seen as a real world show, but it doesn't really seem like any kind of real world. I think the show has increasingly struggled with tone and how much the show is fantasy, and how much is based around the real world. I think the first season did pretty good at establishing a tone that was magical, but also seemed to make an internal kind of sense. The first season had problems too, but they were easier to overlook due to an interesting plot and likable and/or interesting characters, played by talented actors. And, it was magic, so you could hand wave or ignore a lot of the plot holes. Later on, the show became so damn serious and (trying to be) intense, and so lacking in fun, that the plot holes became harder and harder to ignore. Eventually, the things that were good about the show started to go away, and we were just left with plot holes that I could have hand waved due to genre conventions, or just because I was having fun watching, but now cant.

In many ways, its the opposite of what happened to one of my favorite shows on TV, Legends of Tomorrow. Like Once, it is a sort of genre mash up show (except its about a bunch of superheroes and villains in a time ship stopping a super villain) that started out as a pretty good show, but took itself WAY too seriously in its first season, and suffered from a number of plot holes and inconsistencies. However, by season two, the writers just looked at their show and realized "hey, this is a show about time traveling superheroes! Lets have some more fun!" and its been great ever since. While it still has serious episodes and story lines (and takes its characters and their development quite seriously) it has basically given up on making sure all of the time travel stuff lines up, and just embraces having likable characters going on fun adventures. The plot holes are still there, but I can just enjoy the ride because the rest of the stuff is so good. So, while Once got more serious and got worse, LoT embraced the wacky, and became one of my favorite shows on TV. If Once just embraced fairy tale conventions with a modern sensibility, I think it could be good again. Instead of just a drain. 

And I still SUPER believe in Tad Cooper! 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

All three of those are specifically stylized and often act as deconstructions, parody, or homages to other genres, so it makes sense when the plot doesn't always make a whole lot of real world sense. Plus, they're just a million times better written in general. A silly show can be well written, they just have different goals. You can focus more on style or jokes instead of making sure everything makes sense. Once has dabbled in all of that, but it insists, especially as the years have gone by, on taking itself SUPER seriously, and that makes it hand to hand waive the inconsistencies and plot holes.

OUAT, imo, just fits better as a deconstruction, parody, homage, etc. The serious material sucks so much more than the "just for fun" stuff. 

[Camera One]

If Drizella was awake all this time, why didn't she free Gothel earlier?  Victoria just *thought* she casted the Curse.  So wouldn't Drizella have known exactly where Anastasia's body was?  Or where The Book of Belief was?  Speaking of which, how did it end up in Victoria's hands anyway?  And why would a book about a different Enchanted Forest help break the Hyperion Heights Curse, which only affected people in the Disenchanted Forest?  Why didn't Drizella take pro-active steps against people who would cause problems, like Henry or Rumple?   Why wouldn't the Coven of Witches who helped cast the Curse have come over awake as well?

The "fun" is the exception rather than the rule on this show, where everything is supposed to be high drama.  

[tennisgurl]

The biggest laugh I've gotten on Once all season was when Henry failed to wake Lucy up #operationfailure 

[Camera One]

So is Henry done grieving his fake child and wife?  

[Shanna Marie]

53 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

A silly show can be well written, they just have different goals. You can focus more on style or jokes instead of making sure everything makes sense.

These writers want to be taken seriously most of the time, like they're writing some deep story about hope and redemption. But the moment someone questions something, it's suddenly just a silly fantasy thing, why are you asking questions, can't you tell the difference between reality and fantasy, etc. It's even more jarring when it's a question about a serious issue, like the dubious consent rape thing, and they throw out the "it's not real! Why are you taking fantasy so seriously?" excuse.

And humor and fantasy don't mean you don't have to have some kind of consistency. Even Galavant, which worked in anachronisms and farce, still set things up and paid off what they set up. When they didn't actually set it up, that was part of the joke, like that necklace Isabella suddenly always wore, but nobody else remembered seeing her wear it.

I mentioned this in the Other Fairy Tales thread, but this show seems to be regressing on character depth. The initial setup was all about archetype busting, taking all these storybook characters who aren't really "characters" because they're so one-dimensional that they're archetypes rather than characters, and then turning them into characters, fleshing them out, giving them histories and goals beyond just true love. We had a Prince Charming who was a farmboy forced to pose as a prince, a Snow White who was fighting for survival, an Evil Queen motivated by something more than just being considered the fairest. Then they worked in more realistic, modern-day "fairy tale" type stories, like the lonely kid trying to find his birth mother, the woman who's a long-lost daughter of parents who really did love and want her. But in season 7, they don't really seem to have bothered fleshing anything out, instead relying on what they built in the earlier seasons. Instead of creating a character for Lucy, she's just a season one Henry type. They didn't develop who Henry would be as an adult because he's just a season one Emma type, with a dash of Charming. Cinderella is basically a Snow type -- sassy rebel in the past, downtrodden woman in the present -- with no real development beyond that. We're supposed to want Henry and Jacinda to get together because we wanted David and Mary Margaret to find each other.

This whole requel idea would have been more effective if they'd played on our expectations with these archetypes and then really developed the characters in a way that went a different direction or that was interesting and unique from what they did before. Rehashing it in a way that's more shallow and less developed than what they did in season one is just weak.

[Camera One]

As some have speculated, it might be because they had advice and help in the first season.  A&E would probably argue that they fleshed out Lady Tremaine, giving her a history and goals.  

[tennisgurl]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And humor and fantasy don't mean you don't have to have some kind of consistency.

If anything, I think humor and fantasy mean you need even more consistency than in other genres. In humor, some of the best jokes are ones that are set up, or are based around what is already known about the characters and setting. The aforementioned Galavant was great at paying off character ticks, running gags, and minor characters and making them funny by bringing them back, as well as logical within the shows universe. Or in fantasy or speculative fiction, you need to have rules, so that people know how your world works, and what people can and cant do. You cant watch Star Trek and just have an episode where Spock can shoot lasers out of his eyes for no reason. If you want your audience to accept your fantasy or science fiction or whatever weird stuff you throw at them, there has to be consistent, in universe logic so everyone knows whats going on. If you previously establish that Vulcan's can shoot lasers out of their eyes, fine. If you say "we`ve never established this, but Vulcan's arent real anyway, so who cares?" you fail as a writers. I know I've used this before, but it bears repeating. Theres an old quote that says something like "If you watch a puppet show and only look at the strings, the puppet show isn't doing its job", and thats what fantasy writers need to do. Make the audience watch the show, and not the strings. And the Once writers are practically pointing the strings out! 

[Shanna Marie]

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

A&E would probably argue that they fleshed out Lady Tremaine, giving her a history and goals.  

To some extent, they kind of did. They just neglected to bridge the gap between her backstory and her present, or her recent present and immediate pre-curse present. And the real issue is that they didn't flesh out anyone she's around or up against. Even Drizella, who had such promise, turned out to be a relatively two-dimensional character, going full-out psycho because mommy didn't love her best. Lady Tremaine can never be all that interesting if Cinderella isn't interesting and there's no relationship established between her and Cinderella. These are two characters who just happen to have names from the Disney version of the fairy tale, but we've seen nothing in them or their interactions that makes us feel like this is a new twist on the Cinderella story, and yet I think we're supposed to map the Cinderella story onto them and therefore care about them.

34 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Or in fantasy or speculative fiction, you need to have rules, so that people know how your world works, and what people can and cant do.

Something at some point has to actually be grounded. If the way the magic works right now is supposed to be a mystery, then we need to have a grasp on the timeline and the characters' goals and motivations. If the timeline is supposed to be the mystery, then we need to know how the magic works. If the characters are the mystery, then we need to know how their world works. But we don't know anything right now. We know they made Regina cast the curse, but we don't really know the full reason, why they needed the curse and couldn't just do whatever it was where they were. We know nothing about the timeline, why no one is aging, why the curse sent them to 2017 instead of into their present (other than the fact that it would be too difficult and expensive to try to create Seattle in the 2030s or so). We don't know who has magic or why or how. It's all whatever they need for the story at that time. When they refuse to tell us the plan, it comes across like they don't have a plan. Maybe there's some big aha thing about the timeline that fits the plot, but since they won't tell us, it makes us think there is no plan, or that it's just a case of wanting to keep the original cast and keep them young and attractive, but they want the story to be about the second generation, so they made Henry an adult. Drizella and Anastasia have magic because? Does Zelena have magic, or not? Some people can carry magic over into the curse, but others can't, and it doesn't fit what we learned about magic in the first six seasons. The curse doesn't work the way we've seen it work the previous times, but they act like it's the same curse.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

why no one is aging

Quote

Maybe there's some big aha thing about the timeline that fits the plot, but since they won't tell us, it makes us think there is no plan, or that it's just a case of wanting to keep the original cast and keep them young and attractive, but they want the story to be about the second generation, so they made Henry an adult.

After this episode, this is exactly what I believe.  Everyone looked the same when Henry & Jacinda first met, when Lucy was born, when Lucy was 8, and now, when Lucy is whatever the age she is.  Zelena looks the same after 25 years where time didn't move fast.  We're clearly not supposed to think about ages at all.  

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

So is Henry done grieving his fake child and wife?  

It says I lot about the pacing that I've completely forgotten Henry's supposed to have a sad backstory in HH. Does he think they're not real anymore? Believing that Lucy was really his child and trying a TLK wasn't even believable. It makes it even more crazy that he was ready to believe that his wife and child never existed. I know that's a Curse-memory, but he's not supposed to know that. Puppet strings and Hollow Bunnies, I tell ya.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

It says I lot about the pacing that I've completely forgotten Henry's supposed to have a sad backstory in HH. Does he think they're not real anymore? Believing that Lucy was really his child and trying a TLK wasn't even believable. It makes it even more crazy that he was ready to believe that his wife and child never existed. I know that's a Curse-memory, but he's not supposed to know that. Puppet strings and Hollow Bunnies, I tell ya.

The "Cursed Identities" are basically a hollow shell, especially for the returning characters.  They didn't even bother giving Weaver an actual fake life story before he woke.  The Identities pretty much consist of a job title and a new costume, like Roni is a hip bartender, full stop (why would Regina keep dressing like that after she woke?).  They made such a big deal of Zelena's identity but it's a moot point since she woke up 5 minutes later.  They have her say "I am both" as if the new Cursed Identity is embedded into her previous personality?  Henry's fake past was inconsequential and hasn't impacted any of his actions.

With all the magic in the latest episode, I don't really see being in Seattle as all that different from being in Hyperion Heights.  People were predicting that the Hyperion Heights charade would end by mid-season but it seems to be sticking around.  I find the storytelling a little awkward with half the characters awake and half the characters living fake lives and mostly being manipulated without knowing what's what.   

For a show about hope, I find the situation rather hopeless.  Gothel has magic and can wield it.  Everyone else doesn't.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

A silly show can be well written

In addition to LoT, there's Gotham, Z Nation and (OMG!!!) Happy! -- shows that embraced the crazy (done Wango Tango with it in the case of Happy!), but are well-written enough that you just o with the flow.

16 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Puppet strings and Hollow Bunnies

"Puppet Strings and Hollow Bunnies" is my new band name.

[Camera One]

55 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

At least if everyone got their memories back, it would be a level playing field. The memory-less characters are in more danger becasue they don't know who the actually "bad guys" are. Next time, Roni might not be around to throw poisoned cakes into the trash.

On a well-written show, everything happens for a reason.  What was the deal with the cake anyway?  I thought maybe it was building to Gothel buttering up Rogers and using him for her own purposes, but they haven't had a scene since.  

Did anyone wonder why Victoria would keep some random girl prisoner for years and years?  Wouldn't Rogers be curious to find that out?  

And isn't it just like this show for a hero (Whook) to unwittingly cause the problems?  He's the one who resulted in Gothel being free.  No thanks to Rumple's lack of initiative and intelligence.  He and Regina should have co-operated to contain Drizella, and then Gothel, immediately.  Weaver would have been in the best position to find out that Ivy ordered the poisoning of that prisoner with the tattoo.