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S13.E11: Week 10: The Final Rose / S13.E12: After the Final Rose

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1 hour ago, SnapeCharmer said:

I saw that. It's super cute! She was wearing the jersey Bryan gifted her. It's says Big Rach and Dr. Abs on the back. At the bottom it says I'll always have your back. Too bad the producers left that out of the show. 

It didn't fit with their narrative , Peter great, Bryan bad. Which is total BS, especially if I can't commit, is the next bachelor!

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I think Peter's h.s. yearbook quote is amusingly (and presumably)  prescient, though not quite on the level of a 16-year-old Bill Clinton's shaking the hand of President Kennedy!

Having read most of this thread and seen the Finale but nothing else (not even ATFR),  my two cents:

Rachel wanted Peter to propose SO THAT she could:

1.) Have "the usual" "Bachelorette" ending. Two limo arrivals, two men, two rings, one Prince Charming. Her Fantasy Finale.

But also, on a deeper, even sub-conscious level,

2.) Reject him. And by "him" I mean EVERY MAN in Rachel's life who ever "strung her along." Being denied this catharsis, not love, is what drove her frustration with and anger at Peter, which is why it carried over to the live show months later. 

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Looking at their sm, it looks like they have great turnouts at their appearances and they seem very happy together. 

Thinking about it logically, I think the only thing Peter had over Bryan was his looks. Everything else about Peter, especially his personality, is meh. That's what makes his mediocre comment so ironic for me. Peter IS mediocre. Bryan seems to be a much better catch.

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1 hour ago, LennieBriscoe said:

I think Peter's h.s. yearbook quote is amusingly (and presumably)  prescient, though not quite on the level of a 16-year-old Bill Clinton's shaking the hand of President Kennedy!

Having read most of this thread and seen the Finale but nothing else (not even ATFR),  my two cents:

Rachel wanted Peter to propose SO THAT she could:

1.) Have "the usual" "Bachelorette" ending. Two limo arrivals, two men, two rings, one Prince Charming. Her Fantasy Finale.

But also, on a deeper, even sub-conscious level,

2.) Reject him. And by "him" I mean EVERY MAN in Rachel's life who ever "strung her along." Being denied this catharsis, not love, is what drove her frustration with and anger at Peter, which is why it carried over to the live show months later. 

I think she went to him that night, to break up with him. After all, it was three hours and we saw only a few minutes .Throughout all this, I've found her to be honest to a fault, I don't think she'd change, just to see two limos arrive, it's just not who she is. The live show, I'm sure seeing herself at her weakest, and bringing very raw moments alive again, made her both sad, and defensive. I loved that Bryan said he felt so bad, at what she had to go through.

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28 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

Looking at their sm, it looks like they have great turnouts at their appearances and they seem very happy together

Thinking about it logically, I think the only thing Peter had over Bryan was his looks. Everything else about Peter, especially his personality, is meh. That's what makes his mediocre comment so ironic for me. Peter IS mediocre. Bryan seems to be a much better catch.

They do, and that's what matters. Rachel got her happy ending. Whether they stay together or not, I hope they both get everything they want out of this and move on with their lives. 

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16 minutes ago, Hello Lady said:

I think she went to him that night, to break up with him. After all, it was three hours and we saw only a few minutes .Throughout all this, I've found her to be honest to a fault, I don't think she'd change, just to see two limos arrive, it's just not who she is. The live show, I'm sure seeing herself at her weakest, and bringing very raw moments alive again, made her both sad, and defensive. I loved that Bryan said he felt so bad, at what she had to go through.

I think she had deep feelings for both men. But was leaning toward Bryan most. Peter kept dangling a carrot (pushing and pulling) and that was causing her to second guess herself. So, to the point of that other poster, I think her wanting him to propose is true to some extent. She wanted him to want her as much as she wanted him. Bryan already showed her that he wanted her, there was never any real question about that, even if she was skeptical at first of his intentions.  Peter was like the man(men) she'd dated before. He was the familiar, blockading her from accepting the guy that was all in. The long break up was also a product of producer meddling. I'm sure they were poked and prodded, to sit there and talk it out to death. Sleep deprived and stressed emotions can get away from you. It's almost like a form of torture. The producers knew what they were doing. They got the result they wanted (maybe even better than they expected). But it is unfortunate Rachel had to go through that, and have it framed in such a skewed, humiliating way.

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5 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

2.) Reject him. And by "him" I mean EVERY MAN in Rachel's life who ever "strung her along." Being denied this catharsis, not love, is what drove her frustration with and anger at Peter, which is why it carried over to the live show months later. 

lol, you know, I can actually buy this. 

 

Quote

Thinking about it logically, I think the only thing Peter had over Bryan was his looks. Everything else about Peter, especially his personality, is meh. That's what makes his mediocre comment so ironic for me. Peter IS mediocre. Bryan seems to be a much better catch.

And he didn't even have that for me. I never saw the big deal over Peter's looks. I think he's a decent looking guy but the claims of his being the hottest man to ever be on this show and possibly one of the hottest men ever to me was, "yeah, no." After seeing some of his modeling pictures, I can see why he did well with it because I think he photographs very well. But in movement and watching him on the show, I just thought he was okay looking. YMMV

Edited by truthaboutluv
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The Rachel and Peter conversation is up on Youtube.

When he said he felt attacked, I think she actually tried to lower her voice and sound sympathetic. Whether she actually was sympathetic, I have no idea, but it seemed like she was trying to be softer (not sure if that was because he looked like he was about to cry).

I can also see why she rejected his proposal to reach out to her if she's with another man.

The fact that he looked like he was about to cry did kind of get on my nerves, I'll admit. I think Rachel has a more confident demeanour and presentation than me so she was able to contain herself, but his "about to cry" stance probably would have elicited tears from me, just because I would have felt compelled to feel sorry for him, not because I really might have felt sorry for him.

I also get why someone would be in strong physical lust with Peter, but over the long haul, I wonder how someone as articulate as Rachel could get along with him. There's a vocabulary difference between the two (and it's not even like she's using big words or anything). She's very clear in how she expresses herself and he always looks like he's about to cry. 

Edited by bantering
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5 minutes ago, SnapeCharmer said:

The long break up was also a product of producer meddling. I'm sure they were poked and prodded, to sit there and talk it out to death. Sleep deprived and stressed emotions can get away from you. It's almost like a form of torture. The producers knew what they were doing. They got the result they wanted (maybe even better than they expected). But it is unfortunate Rachel had to go through that, and have it framed in such a skewed, humiliating way.

And you know what's funny about all the reaction over how emotional she was walking away from Peter and the long kisses at the end, which some declare was further proof of how Peter was who she really wanted, does no one remember Rachel's breakup with Matt? You know, Matt who we barely saw all season and everyone was wondering how he and Adam got so far? A lot of people were baffled in the comments after that episode at how emotional Rachel was in saying goodbye to Matt and bothered at her habit of making out with people when she was sending them home. All that to say, considering Peter was in the Final 2, so she obviously had deep feelings for him and yes, her odd habit of kissing people when saying goodbye to them, her reaction there was probably not that strange for her. 

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1 hour ago, bantering said:

The Rachel and Peter conversation is up on Youtube.

When he said he felt attacked, I think she actually tried to lower her voice and sound sympathetic. Whether she actually was sympathetic, I have no idea, but it seemed like she was trying to be softer (not sure if that was because he looked like he was about to cry).

I can also see why she rejected his proposal to reach out to her if she's with another man.

The fact that he looked like he was about to cry did kind of get on my nerves, I'll admit. I think Rachel has a more confident demeanour and presentation than me so she was able to contain herself, but his "about to cry" stance probably would have elicited tears from me, just because I would have felt compelled to feel sorry for him, not because I really might have felt sorry for him.

I also get why someone would be in strong physical lust with Peter, but over the long haul, I wonder how someone as articulate as Rachel could get along with him. There's a vocabulary difference between the two (and it's not even like she's using big words or anything). She's very clear in how she expresses herself and he always looks like he's about to cry. 

I agree. I also think she knew he was playing up to the cameras and that what he was doing was very reminiscent of what Lee was doing to Kenny.  Trying to turn things around on her, and paint her in a certain light to elicit sympathy from the audience. I personally loved her exchange with him during the Live Show. I didn't like the format, but I loved how her demeanor and what she said made it plain to him, that he may have gamed her before, but she was on to him and he wouldn't play her again.

Edited by SnapeCharmer
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I also don't get why Peter said that "he was terrified."  What was he terrified of? Terrified of talking? It was such an odd description.

And then he seemed upset that Chris asked him if something was wrong when Peter himself said something was wrong with himself. 

Watching the clips again, it seemed like Rachel simply didn't want Peter solely constructing the narrative of what went on.  It seemed like she wanted her input heard as well. 

She also seemed to lean away from him on the couch, and didn't seem to give into hugging him tightly when he came in for a deep hug at the beginning.  She might have been into him at one point during the process, but now that time has passed she seemed over him at the AFTR.  Who knows what he was feeling. He seemed ready to bawl just from saying to hi to Chris. If he becomes the next Bachelor, they might have to give him some kind of antidepressant to get through the show.

 

Has any other Bachelorette or Bachelor ever been asked if they chose to settle? I saw Rachel asked this question on Live with Kelly and Ryan.  I wouldn't be surprised if other contestants have chosen a "more sure thing" but I can't recall anyone actually being asked that they went off with the second choice --  not even Jason who changed his mind after picking Melissa, even though it looked like he was about to hurl over a balcony from having to choose her.

Edited by bantering
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2 hours ago, SnapeCharmer said:

I think she had deep feelings for both men. But was leaning toward Bryan most. Peter kept dangling a carrot (pushing and pulling) and that was causing her to second guess herself. So, to the point of that other poster, I think her wanting him to propose is true to some extent. She wanted him to want her as much as she wanted him. Bryan already showed her that he wanted her, there was never any real question about that, even if she was skeptical at first of his intentions.  Peter was like the man(men) she'd dated before. He was the familiar, blockading her from accepting the guy that was all in. The long break up was also a product of producer meddling. I'm sure they were poked and prodded, to sit there and talk it out to death. Sleep deprived and stressed emotions can get away from you. It's almost like a form of torture. The producers knew what they were doing. They got the result they wanted (maybe even better than they expected). But it is unfortunate Rachel had to go through that, and have it framed in such a skewed, humiliating way.

This, so much this. Well said :)

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2 hours ago, bantering said:

The fact that he looked like he was about to cry did kind of get on my nerves, I'll admit.

And despite that, he still wasn't able to manufacture any tears...not that I saw, anyway.  

I've only watched 2 seasons of The Bachelorette, Trista & Kaitlyn.  Truth be told, the show squicks me out;  all these men going after one woman gives me uneasy vibes...kinda like that unease women feel when they're getting whistled at by a group of men on the street.  Anyway, curiosity over this finale got to me, and I have to say I was quite happy that Rachel didn't let the unanswered "why do you feel attacked" question drop.  Yeah, it IS a strong word, and I agree with her, all she did was talk about what happened...she didn't call Peter names, she didn't make snotty accusations, she just talked in IMO a pretty unemotional tone.  Is Peter really that thin-skinned that he felt like he was being attacked?  Is this another Ben Higgins who (according to his mother)  needs reassurance & to be "talked down off a ledge"? Also, I'm really sorry to do this (but not sorry enough not to LOL), but on a shallow note when I saw Peter all I could think was "THIS is Peter?  Super-hot Peter?  Yuck, not attractive at all"  

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3 hours ago, SnapeCharmer said:

I think she had deep feelings for both men. But was leaning toward Bryan most. Peter kept dangling a carrot (pushing and pulling) and that was causing her to second guess herself. So, to the point of that other poster, I think her wanting him to propose is true to some extent. She wanted him to want her as much as she wanted him. Bryan already showed her that he wanted her, there was never any real question about that, even if she was skeptical at first of his intentions.  Peter was like the man(men) she'd dated before. He was the familiar, blockading her from accepting the guy that was all in. The long break up was also a product of producer meddling. I'm sure they were poked and prodded, to sit there and talk it out to death. Sleep deprived and stressed emotions can get away from you. It's almost like a form of torture. The producers knew what they were doing. They got the result they wanted (maybe even better than they expected). But it is unfortunate Rachel had to go through that, and have it framed in such a skewed, humiliating way.

I think you give Rachel too much credit. She is a willing participant in this game of stringing along guys. Pushing someone to propose when you aren't going to say "Yes!" is really mean, no matter how much producer intervention is involved. And just in general, anyone who signs up for this gig is probably a selfish person.

But I don't know how much of the Peter/Rachel stuff was legitimate and how much of it was acted. I could see the producers wanting a different ending every season, and this was certainly a different ending. Next season, they will have to pull a different twist, and many of us will fall for that too.

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1 hour ago, ByTor said:

Also, I'm really sorry to do this (but not sorry enough not to LOL), but on a shallow note when I saw Peter all I could think was "THIS is Peter?  Super-hot Peter?  Yuck, not attractive at all"  

My best friend who passed on the entire season but watched the finale pretty much said the exact same thing. Her tweet about it was hilarious. 

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17 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

My best friend who passed on the entire season but watched the finale pretty much said the exact same thing. Her tweet about it was hilarious. 

I'm no fan of his for sure, but earlier in the season I thought he was one of the most good looking in the bunch. I was surprised during the Live show that he looked a bit aged and sallow. Maybe it was the lighting and all that somberness he was trying to work up for the audience.

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1 hour ago, Superpole2000 said:

I think you give Rachel too much credit. She is a willing participant in this game of stringing along guys. Pushing someone to propose when you aren't going to say "Yes!" is really mean, no matter how much producer intervention is involved. And just in general, anyone who signs up for this gig is probably a selfish person.

But I don't know how much of the Peter/Rachel stuff was legitimate and how much of it was acted. I could see the producers wanting a different ending every season, and this was certainly a different ending. Next season, they will have to pull a different twist, and many of us will fall for that too.

I've always maintained that they all signed their names on the dotted line AND most are there for more than just romance and to find true love. That's a given. But in Rachel's defense, she has been upfront about what she wanted at the end and never wavered. There's no way around that. Where I fault her in the case of Peter is that when he told her in Geneva that at once point he considered leaving, she should have cut him loose then and there. No matter what he said after that. As soon as he spoke those words, he should have been gone. IMO, once a guy admits he was willing to bail on you, then that's a full sign he doesn't see you as someone worth fighting for. 

I am not a person saying that she didn't want or have feelings for Peter. I think she did. I think she does for Bryan as well. I think she was torn between the two at that time for different reasons. In the end, one set of reasons outweighed the other. 

I've been in a similar situation: Had a guy we'll call Mr. Complicated that I was really passionate about who always told me that he felt we were meant to be. Emotions ran high with him and whenever I was with him, it was like I was in a haze. But he constantly broke dates and there was always some internal and external drama he had going on. He was unreliable. On the other hand, I had a guy who pursued me vigorously. Kept his word (if we had a date, he never cancelled). Was clear about what he wanted and that he wanted it with me. My feelings for him were there, but I kept being pulled toward the what if with Mr. Complicated. In the end, I went with the guy that was showing me, constantly and consistently he wanted to be with me. And guess what, that guy married me. 

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5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

And you know what's funny about all the reaction over how emotional she was walking away from Peter and the long kisses at the end, which some declare was further proof of how Peter was who she really wanted, does no one remember Rachel's breakup with Matt? You know, Matt who we barely saw all season and everyone was wondering how he and Adam got so far? A lot of people were baffled in the comments after that episode at how emotional Rachel was in saying goodbye to Matt and bothered at her habit of making out with people when she was sending them home. All that to say, considering Peter was in the Final 2, so she obviously had deep feelings for him and yes, her odd habit of kissing people when saying goodbye to them, her reaction there was probably not that strange for her. 

 

Rachel settled for Peter and Bryan because she was on the rebound from Matt, confirmed. Rachel really should go back to therapy. She was a big ole mess. 

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So I have a few more thoughts on Rachel, Bryan and Peter:

1) Bryan seems a lot more likable and telegenic in his interviews than he ever did during the season.

2) Bryan calling Peter wishy-washy during the last chance date, when Rachel had already told Bryan she was choosing him is rich.  

3) Peter wouldnt have been wishy-washy if he had gotten any validation at all from Rachel.  Instead, he got lectured by her in public, and strung along when she knew she was choosing Bryan. 

4) Rachel has admitted she had a hard time understanding Peter's position on the proposal.  I think this is because she was hearing him speak, but reacting to her previous boyfriend.  (She has admitted this was "triggering").  To me Peter was clear: he wanted a life with her.  He wanted to marry her, but he wasn't ready to propose because he didnt a)know how she felt towards him or b)feel secure in their relationship (probably because she was IN LOVE WITH BRYAN).  I honestly think that if they had been able to compromise, He might have proposed on the ATFR. 

5) Rachel is mad at the show for how her relationship with Bryan has been portrayed, but she is directing most of her anger about this at Peter.  Which is some Bullshit. 

6) Rachel doesnt want any of her final four to be the Bachelor? That's some more BS.  Girl has some jealousy issues. 

7) I'm glad Rachel didnt choose Peter.  Because they are not compatible, as evidence by their fight. If you and a partner can't find a way to compromise on issues that are important to you both, you won't work long term.  So even though I was #TeamPeter, I don't think they were actually a good fit.  But I didnt think that til their fight. 

8) Rachel's "Best life" comment might be the bitchiest thing I have ever seen said on this show.  That is NOT how you respond to someone who has sincerely apologized for something they have admitted was wrong, cruel, and unnecessary. Its not the comment that's wrong, its the context.  

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11 minutes ago, thehepburn said:

 

Rachel settled for Peter and Bryan because she was on the rebound from Matt, confirmed. Rachel really should go back to therapy. She was a big ole mess. 

There you go. It was the penguin suit that did it. 

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53 minutes ago, fib said:

So I have a few more thoughts on Rachel, Bryan and Peter:

1) Bryan seems a lot more likable and telegenic in his interviews than he ever did during the season.

2) Bryan calling Peter wishy-washy during the last chance date, when Rachel had already told Bryan she was choosing him is rich.  

3) Peter wouldnt have been wishy-washy if he had gotten any validation at all from Rachel.  Instead, he got lectured by her in public, and strung along when she knew she was choosing Bryan. 

4) Rachel has admitted she had a hard time understanding Peter's position on the proposal.  I think this is because she was hearing him speak, but reacting to her previous boyfriend.  (She has admitted this was "triggering").  To me Peter was clear: he wanted a life with her.  He wanted to marry her, but he wasn't ready to propose because he didnt a)know how she felt towards him or b)feel secure in their relationship (probably because she was IN LOVE WITH BRYAN).  I honestly think that if they had been able to compromise, He might have proposed on the ATFR. 

5) Rachel is mad at the show for how her relationship with Bryan has been portrayed, but she is directing most of her anger about this at Peter.  Which is some Bullshit. 

6) Rachel doesnt want any of her final four to be the Bachelor? That's some more BS.  Girl has some jealousy issues

7) I'm glad Rachel didnt choose Peter.  Because they are not compatible, as evidence by their fight. If you and a partner can't find a way to compromise on issues that are important to you both, you won't work long term.  So even though I was #TeamPeter, I don't think they were actually a good fit.  But I didnt think that til their fight. 

8) Rachel's "Best life" comment might be the bitchiest thing I have ever seen said on this show.  That is NOT how you respond to someone who has sincerely apologized for something they have admitted was wrong, cruel, and unnecessary. Its not the comment that's wrong, its the context.  

I'm going to let Peter's words speak for themselves. Here is a transcript of the first part of the conversation that was aired.:

  • "I am in love with you. That became very clear to me today. But these feelings are so recent.
  • They've been growing to this point, all throughout. But I don't feel that I'm ready to ask you to marry me tomorrow.
  • But I don't want to stop being with you. I do see a future with you. And I want to make those steps but in time.
  • And I'm sorry that its taken me this long. But I'm not able to act on impulse, and I feel like just now realizing the feelings I have for you is not enough for me to say that I want to spend the rest of my life of my life with you.
  • But I know that I want to try hard. Like, really hard. But it's too new to say that I'm gonna give away the one thing that I hold so special and dear to my heart that I'll never get back. I have one opportunity and I want to make sure that it's the right one.
  • I choose to have one opportunity. And that is my choice.
  • I want to build a relationship with you. I'm not able to tell you why it was not an instant I want to marry you for me.
  • Rachel: I'm not looking for an instant I want to marry you. I just feel like if you had gotten to this point, that's what you would want right now. And I just - I don't know how many times to say it - I just want somebody who wants what I want, and then wants that with me.

Keeping in mind that we only observed a portion of the three hour conversation they had on that last chance date,  I omitted most of Rachel's replies, because Peter did most of the talking and she really didn't begin talking outside of some small acknowledgements until the second half of the aired conversation (after commercial break).  Call it push and pull, wishy-washy, indecisive, or whatever, but even in this very small portion of the conversation, her doubts are confirmed. 

Edited by SnapeCharmer
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48 minutes ago, fib said:

8) Rachel's "Best life" comment might be the bitchiest thing I have ever seen said on this show.  That is NOT how you respond to someone who has sincerely apologized for something they have admitted was wrong, cruel, and unnecessary. Its not the comment that's wrong, its the context.  

Except Peter did not sincerely apologize and admit what he said was wrong, cruel and unnecessary. He first tried to wriggle out of the situation with an, "I barely remember what I said that day" and "I don't even remember saying it" and then simply said, "I was wrong to say that". He didn't say, "I saw that and was horrified I said that you and I am sincerely sorry for that".

And all Rachel said was that she was living her best life, yes with some sass because Rachel has a sassy personality and yet she gets practically crucified for that.  As I said Monday night, the fact that Rachel didn't cuss Peter's ass out for that comment, was her being kind.

IMO, Peter's comment to Rachel that she essentially would be choosing a mediocre life if she walked away from him was one of the most cruel, disrespectful and egotistical things to say to someone. And that Rachel still gets dragged because her response to his half-assed apology wasn't up to some people's "standards" is stunning to me. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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2 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

IMO, Peter's comment to Rachel that she essentially would be choosing a mediocre life if she walked away from him was one of the most cruel, disrespectful and egotistical things to say to someone.

I guess I'm really in the minority, but I didn't think the "mediocre" comment was all that bad.  I think it was, as I bolded in your post, 100% egotistical.  I don't think his comment had anything to do with insulting or throwing a jab at her, it was all about "Any life except a life with wonderful me me me me will be mediocre."

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One little thing I don't think we've talked about.  Remember during ATFR when Rachel was sitting with the adorable Eric talking about what a prize he was?  Rachel said something along the lines of "some lucky woman will be getting a fabulous guy" -- and just before she said that, almost under her breath, she said, "It's really hard for me to say this."  I took that to mean that although she had sent him home, knew they weren't right for each other and was happily engaged herself,  it still hurt her to think of some other woman getting her Eric. 

I wonder if some of the crying her lashes off and holding her face up for more kisses with Peter was just the realization that her delicious Peter was going to go out in the world and find someone else?    I'm just speculating.  Most people are never thrown into a position (30 appropriate suitors hand picked for good looks and personality) where it's actually likely that you might be highly attracted to several men at the exact same time.  I think it's easy to imagine being in love with 4 or 5 of them at one time.

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31 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Except Peter did not sincerely apologize and admit what he said was wrong, cruel and unnecessary. He first tried to wriggle out of the situation with an, "I barely remember what I said that day" and "I don't even remember saying it" and then simply said, "I was wrong to say that". He didn't say, "I saw that and was horrified I said that you and I am sincerely sorry for that".

And all Rachel said was that she was living her best life, yes with some sass because Rachel has a sassy personality and yet she gets practically crucified for that.  As I said Monday night, the fact that Rachel didn't cuss Peter's ass out for that comment, was her being kind.

IMO, Peter's comment to Rachel that she essentially would be choosing a mediocre life if she walked away from him was one of the most cruel, disrespectful and egotistical things to say to someone. And that Rachel still gets dragged because her response to his half-assed apology wasn't up to some people's "standards" is stunning to me. 

 

Peter apologized profusely without any prompting. That he gets dragged because his apology wasn't up to some people's standards is stunning to me.

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The show has time parameters. You can't propose within those parameters,  it's Adios,  muchacho. 

Ah,  well.  It's Rachel and  Bryan FTW! 

Sure wish there was a new series--- "Big Rach and Mamacita: The Life of Bryan."

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14 hours ago, SnapeCharmer said:

I saw that. It's super cute! She was wearing the jersey Bryan gifted her. It's says Big Rach and Dr. Abs on the back. At the bottom it says I'll always have your back. Too bad the producers left that out of the show. 

Isn't that on the merchandise he's selling? LMAO, she is modeling their merch. How lovely. Strike while that iron is still hot.

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JudyObscure wrote: "Rachel said something along the lines of "some lucky woman will be getting a fabulous guy" -- and just before she said that, almost under her breath, she said, "It's really hard for me to say this." I took that to mean that although she had sent him home, knew they weren't right for each other and was happily engaged herself, it still hurt her to think of some other woman getting her Eric."

Maybe she said "It's really hard for me to say this" under her breath because what she was about to say was a massive bunch of BS about how great Eric is. It's a coin flip!

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1 minute ago, thehepburn said:

 

Peter apologized profusely without any prompting. That he gets dragged because his apology wasn't up to some people's standards is stunning to me.

Chris Harrison brought up the comment by saying Peter in his words inferred that Rachel was choosing a ring over happiness. That's not without any prompting and his immediate response was that it was said out of frustration and that he didn't remember saying it. So YMMV, agree to disagree, I didn't see that as apologizing without any prompting or apologizing profusely.

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2 hours ago, fib said:

 So I have a few more thoughts on Rachel, Bryan and Peter:

1) Bryan seems a lot more likable and telegenic in his interviews than he ever did during the season.

2) Bryan calling Peter wishy-washy during the last chance date, when Rachel had already told Bryan she was choosing him is rich.  

3) Peter wouldnt have been wishy-washy if he had gotten any validation at all from Rachel.  Instead, he got lectured by her in public, and strung along when she knew she was choosing Bryan. 

4) Rachel has admitted she had a hard time understanding Peter's position on the proposal.  I think this is because she was hearing him speak, but reacting to her previous boyfriend.  (She has admitted this was "triggering").  To me Peter was clear: he wanted a life with her.  He wanted to marry her, but he wasn't ready to propose because he didnt a)know how she felt towards him or b)feel secure in their relationship (probably because she was IN LOVE WITH BRYAN).  I honestly think that if they had been able to compromise, He might have proposed on the ATFR. 

5) Rachel is mad at the show for how her relationship with Bryan has been portrayed, but she is directing most of her anger about this at Peter.  Which is some Bullshit. 

6) Rachel doesnt want any of her final four to be the Bachelor? That's some more BS.  Girl has some jealousy issues. 

7) I'm glad Rachel didnt choose Peter.  Because they are not compatible, as evidence by their fight. If you and a partner can't find a way to compromise on issues that are important to you both, you won't work long term.  So even though I was #TeamPeter, I don't think they were actually a good fit.  But I didnt think that til their fight. 

8) Rachel's "Best life" comment might be the bitchiest thing I have ever seen said on this show.  That is NOT how you respond to someone who has sincerely apologized for something they have admitted was wrong, cruel, and unnecessary. Its not the comment that's wrong, its the context.  

I agree - and it seemed to me, that what Rachel really wanted was a dramatic "two proposal" Bachelorette, where TWO amazing guys were both in love with her and both wanted to marry her.   So she could have all those dramatic moments of indecision and angst, (full mesnick on a balcony, even) and end up in tears as she breaks one man's heart and makes one man happy.  

Yeah, I'm cynical.  But if you're in love with one man enough to be ready to be engaged,  there's no other reason to push another man for a proposal. 

Edited by backformore
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25 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Chris Harrison brought up the comment by saying Peter in his words inferred that Rachel was choosing a ring over happiness. That's not without any prompting and his immediate response was that it was said out of frustration and that he didn't remember saying it. So YMMV, agree to disagree, I didn't see that as apologizing without any prompting or apologizing profusely.

Exactly. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not to his own facts.

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I initially liked Rachel and had high hopes for her when her "journey" first started, but as time went on, I began to......not like her that much. 

So now, all I have to say is, she got the goddamn ring, which is what she wanted, I guess.  

Edited by Ohwell
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What a weird and unsatisfying finale. In general, I'm not a believer in the idea of soulmates, and I understand that the reality is that settling down does mean settling in some areas, because no one is perfect. And I think that, if Peter never existed, the relationship between Rachel and Bryan looks as legit and workable as any.

But that was possibly the hardest proposal to watch ever. I get that the lead has to string the F2 along, at least a little, and it's always going to look a little awkward that they were ostensibly still potentially into one person the day before they chose another. But that break-up with Peter? Yowch. I truly do not know how, if you're Bryan, you look at that and not feel like you really were the second choice, picked because you were prepared to offer a ring. Despite my cynicism, I usually get a little swept up in the proposals at the end of these things, but this one just left me feeling mildly ill.

Ultimately, I really do think this show would work better if we can get to the point where a woman proposing to a man is a perfectly acceptable and unremarkable thing. Because to have one person do the choosing, and the other do the proposing really sets up this situation. It's one thing to ask someone if they would be willing to accept a proposal if you offered one, because being proposed to means being chosen. But to insist that someone be prepared to propose when they don't even have any kind of assurance that they've been chosen just seems really screwed up to me.

I have so much more to say, but it'll probably get ranty, so I'll just leave it there.

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12 minutes ago, kingshearte said:

What a weird and unsatisfying finale. In general, I'm not a believer in the idea

I agree.  I think they changed the format so that people would watch all 3 hours.  What they got was people emotionally rxhausted and done with the show before Bryan proposed.  This was a production fail.  The peter/rachel break up was really compelling tv, but i had nothing left at 10pm when i was getting to the Bryan part of the show.  

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1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Except Peter did not sincerely apologize and admit what he said was wrong, cruel and unnecessary. He first tried to wriggle out of the situation with an, "I barely remember what I said that day" and "I don't even remember saying it" and then simply said, "I was wrong to say that". He didn't say, "I saw that and was horrified I said that you and I am sincerely sorry for that".

And all Rachel said was that she was living her best life, yes with some sass because Rachel has a sassy personality and yet she gets practically crucified for that.  As I said Monday night, the fact that Rachel didn't cuss Peter's ass out for that comment, was her being kind.

IMO, Peter's comment to Rachel that she essentially would be choosing a mediocre life if she walked away from him was one of the most cruel, disrespectful and egotistical things to say to someone. And that Rachel still gets dragged because her response to his half-assed apology wasn't up to some people's "standards" is stunning to me. 

Thank.you.

I said earlier that it's actually Peter who is mediocre, particularly when compared to the rest of her final four. Eric was fun and affectionate, Dean was affectionate and easy going, and Bryan had the chemistry with her and was clear about being in love with her. Peter? Dour, wooden, boring, noncommittal. They all had flaws but Peter didn't even have a fun or affectionate side to make up for his.

Let a guy like that say I would have a mediocre life without him. My reaction would have hurt his feelings because there is nothing special or extraordinary about him at all.

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3 minutes ago, comosedice said:

I love the effort that is being put into trying to get people to hate Peter.

Or maybe some people just have a different opinion and one that is not in line with the exultation of Peter Kraus. Let us be very clear here, I don't love or hate any of these people. I don't know them or care enough to love or hate any of them. And frankly, while I like some more than others, I think they're all famewhores and side-eye worthy for putting themselves out on this freak show. 

That said, we all have our own triggers and standards if you will. And obviously some didn't think Peter's comment was that big of a deal or thought his acknowledging he was wrong should have been enough. However for me personally, when I watched that moment, I literally gasped in my living room when he said that to her. For me, again, just my opinion, I could not believe the level of this man's arrogance and disrespect. Rachel was sitting there with tears and he, annoyed and frustrated told her to go find someone to have a mediocre life with.

And because she dared to have some sass in her response of living her best life, she was made the bad guy. Yeah, I'm going to go there. The feminist in me is just shaking my head that of course the woman gets shamed and attacked after she's insulted by a man. And just so we are clear in case I haven't said it enough, this is my opinion and my standard. I just know that if a man said that to me, "living my best life" wouldn't be the only thing I'd say to him. 

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Rachel is blissful being with a man who called her sloppy seconds. I doubt she's really twisted up at being told to enjoy a mediocre life with Dr. Abs by a man who rejected her. Rachel is obviously not that petty or insecure about what other people think of her relationship with her perfect man. After all, they're too busy with ATFR interviews, shilling for sponsors, and selling branded merchandise to really care about Peter, yes? They're living their best life together - and likely soon in LA - and are VERY happy per their interviews. So it doesn't really matter what Peter said to Rachel cause she and Dr abs have already picked up their B&R mugs, put them in their "Find You A Jerome" Totes and are riding on Cloud 9 to their sponsored wedding. 

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4 hours ago, SnapeCharmer said:

 

I've been in a similar situation: Had a guy we'll call Mr. Complicated that I was really passionate about who always told me that he felt we were meant to be. Emotions ran high with him and whenever I was with him, it was like I was in a haze. But he constantly broke dates and there was always some internal and external drama he had going on. He was unreliable. On the other hand, I had a guy who pursued me vigorously. Kept his word (if we had a date, he never cancelled). Was clear about what he wanted and that he wanted it with me. My feelings for him were there, but I kept being pulled toward the what if with Mr. Complicated. In the end, I went with the guy that was showing me, constantly and consistently he wanted to be with me. And guess what, that guy married me. 

I love this story!  And I love you for making the smart choice for your life. Many women do not. 

i see Rachel as a poised young woman, but she does seem to have an emotional, spicey side. Bryan seems very calm and even keeled. That seems a good combination.  

I am sure Peter will be the next bachelor and some of us will float on cushy clouds of adoration and others of us will retch and eye roll at his every remark.  My bet is he proposes because he let down his walls and opened up and through his journey was able to find the perfect woman. 

Edited by Stinamaia
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3 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

Rachel is blissful being with a man who called her sloppy seconds. I doubt she's really twisted up at being told to enjoy a mediocre life with Dr. Abs by a man who rejected her. Rachel is obviously not that petty or insecure about what other people think of her relationship with her perfect man. After all, they're too busy with ATFR interviews, shilling for sponsors, and selling branded merchandise to really care about Peter, yes? They're living their best life together - and likely soon in LA - and are VERY happy per their interviews. So it doesn't really matter what Peter said to Rachel cause she and Dr abs have already picked up their B&R mugs, put them in their "Find You A Jerome" Totes and are riding on Cloud 9 to their sponsored wedding. 

What? No tacky shirts? Missed advertising opportunity.

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1 hour ago, Stinamaia said:

I love this story!  And I love you for making the smart choice for your life. Many women do not. 

i see Rachel as a poised young woman, but she does seem to have an emotional, spicey side. Bryan seems very calm and even keeled. That seems a good combination.  

I am sure Peter will be the next bachelor and some of us will float on cushy clouds of adoration and others of us will retch and eye roll at his every remark.  My bet is he proposes because he let down his walls and opened up and through his journey was able to find the perfect woman. 

Thank you. 

Re: Peter

I'm with you on that theory. I think that's his story line: Walls up, Loses woman. Meets new women. Walls down. Falls in Love. Proposes. Fade to black.

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11 minutes ago, SnapeCharmer said:

Thank you. 

Re: Peter

I'm with you on that theory. I think that's his story line: Walls up, Loses woman. Meets new women. Walls down. Falls in Love. Proposes. Fade to black.

Ummm  maybe fades to rosy pink

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1 hour ago, comosedice said:

What? No tacky shirts? Missed advertising opportunity.

Tacky shirts AND phone cases for sale. You can find links to "The Bryan Abasolo Collection" in the Bachelorette media thread.

Hopefully there are still items left to purchase! Perfect to give as gifts for the holidays.

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The Brachel stuff is extremely cheesy but I'm a fan of multiple income streams.  If the real housewives can do wines, clothing lines, hair care lines, cookbooks, and such, I won't knock other cheesy reality show stars for monetizing. I doubt they'll make much though since the market for that stuff is small.

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4 hours ago, fib said:

5) Rachel is mad at the show for how her relationship with Bryan has been portrayed, but she is directing most of her anger about this at Peter.  Which is some Bullshit. 

6) Rachel doesnt want any of her final four to be the Bachelor? That's some more BS.  Girl has some jealousy issues. 

7) I'm glad Rachel didnt choose Peter.  Because they are not compatible, as evidence by their fight. If you and a partner can't find a way to compromise on issues that are important to you both, you won't work long term.  So even though I was #TeamPeter, I don't think they were actually a good fit.  But I didnt think that til their fight. 

8) Rachel's "Best life" comment might be the bitchiest thing I have ever seen said on this show.  That is NOT how you respond to someone who has sincerely apologized for something they have admitted was wrong, cruel, and unnecessary. Its not the comment that's wrong, its the context.  

Call me crazy, but I have a feeling the Rachel we saw in the live portion of that finale was more of the "real" her.  No way to cut out the shade being thrown on that stage during the live show. I'd guess there is plenty on the cutting room floor, though. 

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Wow, I watched this whole season and looked at the swag Bryan is hawking online ... and I didn't have a clue who or what "Dr. Abs" is or "Jerome" or any of that stuff. I figured he had some "outside" business he was selling stuff for. I had no idea it had anything to do with TB-ette. Go figure.

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1 hour ago, Stinamaia said:

Ummm  maybe fades to rosy pink

tenor.gif

Now you know if I would have posted that, I would have gotten another reprimand. LOL

Edited by SnapeCharmer

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So, so disappointing. My favourite Bachelorette chooses the smarmy mama's boy.

Unlike many posters here, I thought this was a great group of men. Only Sham-Waa (Whaboom) and Lee were worse and they were obviously put in by the producers to be controversial and create (ho hum) drama.

But of the remainder, I truly consider Bryan to be the worst. I could never understand why she carried him along.

And the way Peter left was heartbreaking. He actually seems like a reasonable, decent guy. Took me a while to warm up to him (although I loved their first "dog date".)

Clearly, this is going to be one of those three-month relationships. Either she will come to her senses, or her family will point out that his mother is the Demon from Hell.

And Rachel, why on earth is a successful, intelligent, beautiful woman so desperate to get married? Completely ridiculous. I would much rather have watched the men in the house (particularly Josiah, Dean and Alex) having a load of fun.

Gah I usually don't take this seriously, but this time seemed to be full of real people and not so much of the aspiring actor type.

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