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S13.E11: Week 10: The Final Rose / S13.E12: After the Final Rose

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On 8/11/2017 at 0:10 PM, ridethemaverick said:

Re: Peter's friends...all I'll say is that I saw it coming. His friends are extremely TYPICAL and I know you know what I mean

So RIDETHEMAVERICK, is this some secret code you're not willing to explain?

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This afternoon as I was entering my local mall, this very handsome guy held the door open for me as he was leaving.  He looked 30ish, a lot like Peter with the premature graying, except handsomer, and taller, with a dazzling smile.  Now, I'm pretty sure I'm old enough to be his mama so I didn't want to look back at him and stare too hard but I just couldn't help myself.  I just watched his ass as he walked away and I thought, if this guy had been on the Bachelorette, Rachel would have lost her shit and said "Bryan who?"  Lordy, he was smokin'.

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42 minutes ago, rebel2u said:

So RIDETHEMAVERICK, is this some secret code you're not willing to explain?

It's not a secret code but no I'm not going to explain it. Those who understood it know because they've lived it or observed it.

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4 hours ago, FrancesL said:

I didn't get the impression that people were accusing Peter of being borderline abusive. That would be a big stretch. based on what we've seen of him. I've heard terms like manipulative or selfish thrown out, but neither of those terms are remotely synonymous with abusive.  Personally, I really have no idea what was going through Peter's mind. The final interview suggests that he cared deeply for Rachel, but wanted the best of both worlds. He wanted her to take a leap of faith and pick him over Bryan, but he didn't want to make any commitments.  I don't think that was fair to Rachel and I can understand her frustration.  I think that the back and forth interaction between Peter and Rachel reminded some people of emotionally frustrating relationships that they' experienced, which is why they understand Rachel's perspective. But that still doesn't imply that they saw him as abusive.  However, I do think that it's fair game to speculate that Peter went on the show to be the next Bachelor, since I suspect that a lot of contestants go on the show hoping to make a big enough impression to be picked as the next bachelor. But that still doesn't imply that people think he's abusive. At the very worst, he might be calculating, although his emotions in the finale suggest otherwise. His feelings seemed real but for whatever reason, he just couldn't take that final step.  Of course in real life it would be perfectly reasonable to not want to propose after 4-5 real dates, but he went on a show called the Bachelorette knowing that the  winner is expected to propose.

I should add that Peter isn't the only person being criticized here. There have been tons of negative comments about Rachel throughout the thread....many which struck me as pretty harsh and unfair.  Some have stated that that she didn't deserve Peter, that he dodged a bullet, or that she showed her "true colors" in the final interview.  Some saw Peter as the victim.  Anyway, I think that many of the  recent comments about Peter were posted to defend Rachel or to explain why they saw Peter's behavior as problematic.  But I didn't get the impression that people were trying to say he was abusive. I liked Peter, but I can completely understand why Rachel didn't pick him  and why the entire experience with him was so difficult for her.   Honestly, I didn't find Bryan particularly exciting to watch, but he definitely seemed smitten with Rachel. and knew what he wanted (unlike Peter).  I'm not sure why so many people are bashing him either. But we all see things differently, I guess. 

Thank you.  You are correct. It is all about interpretation.  Peter's actions caused  strong reactions in some people.  Just because I found Peter's actions problematic and they raised some red flags, doesn't mean I saw him as abusive.  He wanted the outcome to be on his terms, when Rachel, the Lead, has stated since the beginning of her journey, that at the end of it all, she wanted to be engaged.  

While parts of their conversations were heavily edited, I didn't get any indication that he was willing to compromise with Rachel (willing to move to be in a committed relationship with her, promise ring, timeline or timeframe for a proposal).  He simply said date.  He could have said that he doesn't have strong enough feelings for her to commit to her, and since she wants a proposal, he would give the other men a chance with her. They all were willing to propose. Even if he couldn't leave for storyline purposes, contract or whatever, Rachel would have played along until she could let him go. She would have had more respect for him and their exchange at the finale would have been more cordial. But he kept telling her he loved her whenever he thought he would be let go (in front her parents' house). If he cared for her feelings, he would have walked away.  

Let's say he was into her, but he just couldn't propose after 2 months and he wanted to build on their foundation. How is a healthy relationship to survive if there isn't a meeting of the minds?  If she did choose him, would it be a long distance relationship?  He gave her nothing, and I couldn't see the both of them in a healthy relationship. 

I watched with my husband since we are on vacation and he said to me  during the 4th episode that he should mail Rachel a copy of "He is Just Not Into You" in jest.  While we laughed, I just had a nagging feeling about him. By the time we watched the finale, right after Peter and Rachel's break up, he look at me, asked me if I was okay, and said Peter reminded him of my ex.   So, people with similar experiences felt very uneasy.  

Finally, the word manipulation was ascribed to Peter because of his declaration that he would make a sacrifice and do it (propose).  If it were a true sacrifice from the heart, he would have said that he knows how much it means to her, he loves her and wants her to be happy,  because her happiness means so much to him, he would propose. Maybe that would cause Rachel to make a sacrifice and tell him that she would be willing to wait because she didn't want him to feel obligated to something he he wasn't ready to do. At that point, she would have felt that her feelings were being considered.  Then maybe that would work. That is true sacrifice.  But he didn't.  A person making a true sacrifice never tells the person that he/she is making a sacrifice for the the other person.  By doing that, it makes the other party feel guilty.  

7 hours ago, ByTor said:

Geez, @Earlfor1, what a control freak, glad you got away!

Thanks! Me too!

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So who else has had Nordstrom ads popping up in their browser featuring none other than Peter? (or someone who looks a helluva lot like him) Longer hair & beard.

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5 hours ago, Sarah22029 said:

Red flag: Peter is over 30 and has never dated a black woman. Most men like Peter probably have a type. His last girlfriends are white.

To be fair, Rachel never dated a white guy before the show.

Most Americans date within their racial and ethnic group. 

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5 hours ago, Sarah22029 said:

Red flag: Peter is over 30 and has never dated a black woman. Most men like Peter probably have a type. His last girlfriends are white.

LOL. @Sarah22029 you're like F it, I'm just gonna put it out there!

1*ddyTs-RrwO7bBVEVOvw2WQ.gif

You're a brave one. 

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1 hour ago, ridethemaverick said:

To be fair, Rachel never dated a white guy before the show.

Most Americans date within their racial and ethnic group. 

I try to see people as individuals, so in that way some people are open to dating a spectrum of people, while others have a fixed type. Some people are drawn mostly to aesthetics, other's mostly to personality attributes.  Some people are somewhere in between. Everyone is different in that way. Rachel may have been open at this point in her life to dating outside her race, when before she may not have been; it worked for her. Peter may have been open as well, but found in practice it didn't work for him or that it didn't work for him with Rachel. If she wasn't his type, (for whatever reason) I don't begrudge him of that. What I have an issue with is the possibility of him knowing early on that she was not his type and still moving forward with the relationship (for the wrong reasons). Because that is by definition, deceptive. Not to mention the emotional strife it caused. It removed her focus from other men who were attracted to her in full and that took away from the experience for everyone.  

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2 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

To be fair, Rachel never dated a white guy before the show.

I may be wrong but I think she stated that she'd never brought a white guy home to meet her family, right before her HTD on Nick's season. The implication I got is that she dated white guys, probably in college, but it never got serious enough to bring them home to meet her family. 

 

Quote

Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

Or, the commentary is heavily focused on Peter because his and Rachel's relationship/breakup dominated the finale, both with the edit of the final episode and their time on stage in front of the live studio audience. Bryan's FSD and LCD were two of the shortest I have ever seen, especially for a Final 1. So of course you're going to find the conversation is dominated by Peter and Peter and Rachel's relationship. Not to mention that you have extreme sides with people who thought he was never into Rachel and only wanted to be the next lead and those who think Rachel was madly in love with him and only picked Bryan because he was willing to propose. Naturally, that's going to cause a lot of the conversation to be about him. 

Regarding no commentary on Bryan and why she picked him, multiple people, including myself (and SnapeCharmer, who listed numerous reasons on the previous page) have stated multiple times all the reasons we were sure Rachel was going to pick Bryan and he wasn't just a rebound choice because Peter wouldn't propose. It's just that all those reasons get ignored and dismissed to focus once again on how much Rachel cried and she kissed Peter and they shared "I love You's" when they were breaking up, so clearly he is who she wanted, period. 

I have no problems listing all the reasons again that I think it was fairly obvious that Bryan would be the Final 1 and it had nothing to do with Rachel's settling. I just know none of it will make a difference to anyone who firmly believes the opposite. But what the hell, to quote Rachel herself, "I have time".

Bryan got the FIR. Yes, the FIR isn't always full proof as some leads have given their FIR to people who crash and burn mid-season but for the Bachelorettes, there is a long list proving that that it is a strong indication of who they are very interested in. Multiple times throughout the season, Rachel talked about how Bryan made her feel and how he accepted her for exactly who she is and it didn't scare him or make him run away and she'd never had a man treat her that way. When talking to his mother about why she had feelings for him, she gushed on about how genuine, caring, kind, etc. he was and again mentioned how she had never had a man treat her the way he did. Rachel got into it with her family for Bryan including borderline snapping at her own mother.

You don't do that with your family you're very close to for a guy you don't have some serious feelings for her. Rachel's biggest concern regarding Bryan was just that he seemed too good to be true and her skeptical nature made her not want to believe it and want to sabotage it. And of course there was the watch. The watch that had a lot of the guys upset because as Eric blatantly put it, "Bryan getting a watch and wearing it was one thing. But Rachel also getting one and wearing it around the other guys was a whole other thing." That was a ballsy move on Rachel's part. There was their obvious physical chemistry. What some thought was smarmy, Rachel would practically swoon and become full on putty in Bryan's hands over. Like Reality Steve said, she ate up every one of his cheesy lines. They seemed to genuinely enjoy being with and around each other. Bryan joked in one of their post-show interviews that that's one reason they showed so little of their deeper relationship because it had no drama so that didn't make for interesting television. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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7 hours ago, Sarah22029 said:

Red flag: Peter is over 30 and has never dated a black woman. Most men like Peter probably have a type. His last girlfriends are white.

You know what, that was another red flag, but I chose to willfully omit this from my previous posts.  I am in an interracial relationship (my husband is white, I am black), and we both never dated outside our race until we met each other.  I could truly tell he was very into me, so much so that I thought my husband wanted to fulfill some fantasy.  With Peter, I just didn't see those sparks. (I saw them with Dean, Adam and Matt, and of course Bryan, and I believe she was their type as well.). While I truly believe Peter is open minded about race, was somewhat attracted to her, and he wanted to give Rachel a shot, I believe that in the end, she wasn't physically his type. 

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20 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

While I truly believe Peter is open minded about race, was somewhat attracted to her, and he wanted to give Rachel a shot, I believe that in the end, she wasn't physically his type. 

Honestly, I think it was just that simple. 

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For me, the reason Bryan doesn't get as much attention or discussion, isn't because: 

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Rachel was madly in love with [Peter] and only picked Bryan because he was willing to propose

It's that I think the story with Bryan, as presented on our screen, was pretty dull. I think the producers could have made a better story... I have no doubt that interesting conversations must have happened between Bryan and Rachel. I can't imagine her picking him, otherwise. It's just that the producers didn't want to present the love story. They wanted to present the Drama. And nothing I've been saying about Peter is meant to discount Bryan in any way. I'm sure he's a lovely person, and I think Rachel wanted him. I don't think she settled for him because Peter wouldn't propose. I think Peter wouldn't propose partly because she'd already picked Bryan, and he knew it. In my mind, the only problem with Bryan is that it seems people have expected Peter to act like Bryan didn't exist, when he knew Rachel wanted Bryan.

To be honest, as much as I've defended Peter, it's been because of this:

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

people who thought he was never into Rachel and only wanted to be the next lead

I believe it's awfully unfair to reduce his feelings to this. Peter was either a) a fantastically good actor (in which case, he must have missed his calling), or b) in tremendous pain when they broke up.

I don't fault him for the word "sacrifice." And I think his willingness to sacrifice was desperation. He really didn't want to lose her. That early in a relationship, the only way Rachel could have known what a sacrifice it would be for Peter to propose with another guy in the wings, and the huge risk of rejection (the symbolism of the watches was probably not lost on him)... the only way she could have known how big a deal that willingness to do it for her would be, is if he had told her. She wasn't showing an awareness of his internal meanings, so he had to state it baldly. It would have been a sacrifice. And taking a chance on her reciprocating the sacrifice is not something he could do so early in a relationship, especially not in a non-exclusive relationship. It's really not something anyone can do that early in a relationship. That sort of mind-reading only happens when you know someone really well... have had years to get to know them.

Here's another part of why that didn't bother me. Having had a lot of therapy myself, I recognize the approach. Therapy, done well, creates a different mindset, which results in a desire to be as up-front and verbal with the internal workings of one's mind as one can be. A therapist will urge a person not to assume others can read their mind and know what they want. A therapist will encourage directness, especially when something matters a great deal to their client. Other people can't know your "must haves" or your "deal breakers" unless you tell them. So, to me, having been through the therapeutic process, I found his approach really refreshing.

 

If we want to sum up my "defense" and Rest My Case, we could say:


Point: Peter was not a bad guy, and did not seem to me to be a "Wrong Reasons" participant.

Point: Bryan was not a bad guy, and was not Rachel's "back-up."

Point: Rachel wanted Bryan. She allowed herself to go along with Production shenanigans where Peter was concerned, which wasn't cool.

Point: Production sucks.

I leave it to the jury to decide which points are valid.

<Tongue firmly in cheek here, y'all. I know this is a game. LOL >

Edited by CalamityBoPeep
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4 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

And nothing I've been saying about Peter is meant to discount Bryan in any way.

Just to be clear, my comment wasn't a blanket one directed at everyone. 

 

4 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

It's just that the producers didn't want to present the love story. They wanted to present the Drama.

Basically. And that's the show. As many people have stated, at the end of the day, this is an entertainment show. The producers are looking to create water cooler moments, trends on social media and hype. If a couple comes out of it and lasts, great for them. But at the end of the day that's not what the producers care about. Regarding the big breakup with Peter and Rachel. Some people harped on the three hours as more proof that it makes no sense Rachel said she went there to break up with him. But as someone sensibly pointed out, does anyone think the producers would have allowed Rachel to show up and just say, "yeah it's not you and I'm eliminating you now. Peace". Cause that would make for dramatic television.

No, they kept them in there and had them talk for hours until both were exhausted, making the tears that much easier to flow, etc. It's just like the contestants who've talked about being driven around and around after they're eliminated until the producers either get tears or some soundbite from them. It's a television show. And as someone else noted again, I know they were loving the reaction to that breakup scene. They got exactly what they wanted. Sucked for Rachel, especially with so many now insisting she only settled but not the producers' problem. They're there to make good TV and that's what they probably believe they achieved last Monday night. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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12 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

does anyone think the producers would have allowed Rachel to show up and just say, "yeah it's not you and I'm eliminating you now. Peace".

I doubt that the producers would have liked it, but I also don't think they could have stopped her if she chose to do it that way. It doesn't take long to say something like that, and then the cat's out of the bag. It would have been an entirely different drama if that had come first in the conversation. The producers probably would have still made them sit there for 3 hours to get their soundbites and drama, but the pain and confusion wouldn't have been prominent, in that case.

So, yeah, I agree... production has a lot to do with it. Exhaustion, too. I feel like production set up the scenario, told Rachel what they wanted from her, and then she did what they wanted without considering how it was going to affect Peter, or how painful it would end up being for her. I imagine she regrets the decision to do it that way, in the end. Ie: Production sucks.

But production could not have stopped her from going in a different way, if that was what she wanted. What could they do to her then? It was down to the wire. They weren't going to trash the entire show, and I know they have pretty brutal contracts, but the contestants always claim that they can say or do what they want in the end. That nobody in production forces them to do what they choose not to do.

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On 8/13/2017 at 10:36 AM, ridethemaverick said:

Good post. Re: some of Peter's comments, I believe it's called "negging". There is a whole forum out there for losers who hate women and want to play with their heads, and they do this to attractive women to bring them down a peg. 

To be clear, I'm not saying Peter is a member of those forums. But in hindsight, some of his behavior and comments can be seen as negging Rachel, intentional or not.

She dodged a bullet. 

Hmm. That's interesting. I saw every episode of VH-1's "The Pick-Up Artist" featuring Mystery, the creatin who apparently wrote the book on negging. And Peter had nary a piece of flare--no fuzzy hat, no bejeweled belt buckle, no black eye liner/nail polish. Granted, I suppose fashion choices may have changed over the past decade, but the pieces of flare were an integral part of the process. ;-)

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4 hours ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I doubt that the producers would have liked it, but I also don't think they could have stopped her if she chose to do it that way. It doesn't take long to say something like that, and then the cat's out of the bag. It would have been an entirely different drama if that had come first in the conversation. The producers probably would have still made them sit there for 3 hours to get their soundbites and drama, but the pain and confusion wouldn't have been prominent, in that case.

So, yeah, I agree... production has a lot to do with it. Exhaustion, too. I feel like production set up the scenario, told Rachel what they wanted from her, and then she did what they wanted without considering how it was going to affect Peter, or how painful it would end up being for her. I imagine she regrets the decision to do it that way, in the end. Ie: Production sucks.

But production could not have stopped her from going in a different way, if that was what she wanted. What could they do to her then? It was down to the wire. They weren't going to trash the entire show, and I know they have pretty brutal contracts, but the contestants always claim that they can say or do what they want in the end. That nobody in production forces them to do what they choose not to do.

We producers are like pit bulls.  I don't know how many times I have heard "Promise them your first born if you have to, but I need the (insert whatever the show runner wanted) footage by yesterday."   We have a way of asking questions to get a desired response.  Sometimes we get the response desired, other times we don't.  For example, the producer was trying to get Dean to say that Lee was racist, but Dean didn't bite.   While he didn't say it, the producer's question remained in the postproduction cut because it was still able to present what  Dean was insinuating about Lee.

So while Rachel could have just said, "Peace Out" to Peter, it is very well possible that the producers "asked" her to have a conversation about proposals, and then she got emotional because of her past.  Or, if Peter knew it was Bryan due to the watches, body language etc., but really promised Peter that he would be the next lead, then they "encouraged" him to be as emotional as possible so Rachel couldn't just walk away.

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On 8/7/2017 at 10:17 PM, GracieK said:

The fact that Peter kept using the phrase "the process" makes me think he's in talks to for the next Bachelor.  I always get this sense that the producers brainwash them into this cult using their own verbiage as cults often do and "the process" (who is actually Joel Embiid, but I digress basketball fans) is one of their signature phrases and I suspect is used heavily in convincing one to take up the role.  If they weren't famewhoring for it already.  

I don't know how I feel about him being the next Bachelor.  He's low energy and definitely indecisive.  I think he's a commitment phobe too.. but I guess that part doesn't really matter as this show doesn't exactly have the best track record for creating actual marriages.

Rock Chalk Jayhawk!!!

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Mike Fleiss tweeted today "Do we really want a Bachelor who isn't ready to settle down with a woman he loves? Hmm. Not what the bachelor is about.

 

I guess thats why other names have been tossed around. 

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5 minutes ago, Hello Lady said:

Mike Fleiss tweeted today "Do we really want a Bachelor who isn't ready to settle down with a woman he loves? Hmm. Not what the bachelor is about.

 

I guess thats why other names have been tossed around. 

Well, this should make a few people happy and also put a stop to others saying the producers were editing the show in favor of Peter.

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24 minutes ago, comosedice said:

Well, this should make a few people happy and also put a stop to others saying the producers were editing the show in favor of Peter.

Bingo! :)

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This entire season of the bachelorette was a completely lost cause. The entire draw of the franchise is to find and give airtime to the best looking people who will have them. Rachel is not that person. Huge high forehead. Gap between her teeth. Strange, round eyes. 

The franchise could've chosen at least a dozen girls who were prettier. They chose literally the least appealing girl they could find. I wouldn't be surprised if the franchise took a significant ratings hit as a result. 

Fans of the program don't watch to support political correctness. We watch because we get emotionally involved in and caught up in the lives of exceptionally beautiful women. 

Andi was awful, but Desiree Hartsock was a sweetheart and struck me flabbergastingly enough as a genuine girl who was legitimately in search of a husband. And found one. 

I really hope the franchise does a better job of choosing a bachelorette next time: it shouldn't be difficult given the numbers of women interested.

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Peter's ex interview  with Reality Steve.  She pretty much details her relationship with Peter.  She talks about his push and pull, and how he wanted to do the show for his business.  The site includes screenshots of his texts to her right before he left for the show.  

Reality Steve also admitted that he found out his spoilers were wrong when he knew for a fact that Rachel was on a safe house visit, but Brittany admitted to him that she was with Peter all weekend.  He also interviews Arie's ex.

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